« UFC 94 event results | Home | Vaseline should pay BJ Penn and sponsor him »
Does the UFC now have their own version of the “Akiyama” scandal?
By Zach Arnold | February 1, 2009
Update: MMA Weekly has Greg Jackson’s unique take on the situation. Steve Cofield responds. The ‘NSAC official’ who went after GSP’s cornerman? Keith Kizer himself.
—
For those of you who don’t follow the Japanese MMA scene, it was approximately two years ago when Japanese judoka Yoshihiro Akiyama faced the legendary Kazushi Sakuraba on a K-1-promoted event on New Year’s Eve called Dynamite. Akiyama beat Sakuraba in the fight, but Sakuraba was screaming to the referee throughout the match that Akiyama had some sort of substance on him that made it hard to hold onto him. Eventually, it was revealed that Akiyama had been using skin lotion and that the substance made him slippery. He was promptly suspended by K-1.
Now, UFC finds itself in a developing controversy regarding the Georges St. Pierre/BJ Penn mega-fight that took place on Saturday night at the MGM Grand Garden Arena in Las Vegas. Cage Potato reports that BJ Penn’s camp has filed a formal complaint with the Nevada State Athletic Commission, claiming that a cornerman for St. Pierre was rubbing vaseline on his back in-between rounds.
If the NSAC agrees that indeed rules were violated, it will immediately taint St. Pierre’s dominant win over Penn. I realize and you realize that St. Pierre put on a dominant performance, but Penn’s camp has a perfectly legitimate gripe here if the accusations of vaseline usage (in this manner) are true. While Dana White tried to soften the blow of the allegations about possible illegal vaseline usage on St. Pierre, the fact that White is trying to deflect all the heat for the incident on a cornerman and not on St. Pierre is unacceptable.
As I laid out recently in a new article, the heat is on Keith Kizer and the NSAC. First, questions about Antonio Margarito (stemming from the California State Athletic Commission’s investigation into him). Second, questions promptly raised by Ivan Trembow regarding the NSAC not performing out-of-competition drug testing for the last two month’s worth of MMA shows. And now, you can add this brand new complaint filed by Penn’s camp against St. Pierre.
Here is St. Pierre’s side of the story.
Fightlinker, as usual, strikes the right tone.
Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 101 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Man, sounds like sour grapes. I noticed GSP’s trainer doing that and all I thought was “hmm his trainers keeping him loose” I also noticed him (the trainer) rubbing GSP’s temples between rounds looking like he wanted him to stay relaxed. I know that MT trainers will rub out a fighters legs or arms between rounds and that looked like the sort of thing that was going on. I’m REALLY dubious about anything that comes out of BJ’s camp right now.
If the NSAC wiped Georges down like St. Pierre say they did, there shouldn’t be much of an issue with this particular fight.
But like with any other potential “scandal”, I wonder if Georges’ corner men have any history of this…I doubt it, but THAT could have an affect on GSP’s image.
Spacedog- According to Dana White at the post-fight press conference, the commission was “freaking out” as if it was a big deal.
I’d imagine that if this had been anything other than a huge fight, the fighter who got vaseline put on his back would have been disqualified on the spot.
It’s not the fighter’s fault, but still, that’s your cornerman. To use an extreme example, if a fighter’s cornerman jumps into the cage in the middle of a round and attacks the other fighter, that would also not be the fighter’s fault, but it would almost surely result in a disqualification.
Agree with Body_Shots, if the NSAC freaked out they rubbed it off right?
Yeah, shame on the cornerman and tsk-tsk GSP, but a formal complaint? Sour grapes.
I wish we could have seen what actually happened. How much vaseline was applied, who applied it, what the commission did, etc. They have cameras in both corners in between every round, and from what Dana White said at the post-fight press conference, it sounds like it would have been a big commotion, but they apparently decided not to show the incident during the fight or after the fight, unless they did and I missed it.
I don’t think anything will come of this. If it’s a highly legit complaint, it will be minimized and pushed under the rug.
I can’t believe that anyone is actually taking this seriuos, BJ is a crybaby he just can’t accept losing like a man so he always looks for an excuse.
GSP dominated him from beggining to end he was never in any trouble in the fight. For anyone to try and claim any kind of taint on GSP’s win would be reaching to a level never before seen before in MMA.
Anyone that isn’t BJ nuthugger would admit that this is just sour grapes from a guy who embarrased and wants to save face. But it isn’t going to work BJ is going to have to live with this loss and being humbled for the rest of his life.
EJ— I don’t think anyone is saying that this is why GSP won the fight.
From looking at the tape, it was hard to see much because the director kept cutting away every time vaseline would be on-screen or a towel would be on-screen, but you can clearly see that one of GSP’s trainers rubs his back between Rounds 1 and 2, although you can’t see whether the trainer has anything on this hands. The incident with the athletic commission definitely happened between Rounds 2 and 3. You can see in the seconds right before Round 3 started that one of the NSAC inspectors was thrown a towel and gave St. Pierre’s back a very brief rub-down as the round was about to start. Then, between Rounds 3 and 4, it looks like St. Pierre’s back got a much more thorough rub-down with towels. Again, it’s hard to determine much from this because the director kept cutting away from it.
I know what happened, what i’m saying is that unless GSP was oiled up from head to toe this is a non-story. The accusation is that GSP having vaseline on his back=The fight being a no contest because it gave him an unfair advantage over Penn which is simply false.
GSP was simply the better fighter, to claim this as anykind of scandal is to give BJ Penn exactly what he wants. Another excuse in a long line of excuses coming from a guy who has brainwashed the MMA community into believing his hype.
Sound pretty scummy to me. I haven’t seen the fight, but I remember being miffed years ago when Akiyama got caught doing the same thing.
What if vaseline was used before the fight even began and the trainer was re-applying it?
Congrats to FO for brining this up.
Do me a favor see the fight and then come back and tell me how it was the vaseline that helped GSP win.
Smoogy posted several damning gifs in this thread on the underground. As for whether it would’ve helped GSP win, the first of these gifs is from after round 1, in other words, before the fight ever hit the ground. That would mean that we NEVER SAW any action on the ground before the application of vaseline on his back. If BJ got it on his legs by playing high guard, that could’ve been a factor in his inability to keep GSP in his guard, control his posture, or effectively attempt submissions.
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=1&thread=1411250&page=1&pc=53
I can confirm that Kizer came springing into the cage, yelling at people, and that they took a towel to GSP’s back.
Not a big issue.
1. Akiyama did it before the fight.
2. GSP explained it during MMA Live. He said his cornerman forgot it was on his hand, and they wiped it off before he went out there.
3. This story has gotten zero coverage. Likely because it isn’t much of a story. Sherdog, MMAWeekly, MMAJunkie, & Yahoo! have all ignored the story. Only 5oz’s has touched it, and I doubt it will have legs.
Nobody is dumb enough to do that intentionally with all the fans and cameras around. And it’s not like it had much of an effect on the fight itself. Very different then Akiyama greasing up his legs intentionally because he knew Sakuraba would go for those low singles.
Some people love to complain after a loss. This is an example of it.
I was wondering why Penn wasn’t able to control GSP’s posture when GSP took him down. He kept going for rubber guard and GSP would pop right out. I don’t think BJ would’ve won because Pierre’s striking was tighter than BJ’s.
BJ’s guard was passed at will for two reasons. First, because GSP is a better grappler then him. Secondly, because GSP is a bigger fighter and after a round or two, Penn was gassed, and couldn’t stop anything. Not to mention that Penn has never been overly effective from his back in MMA.
If you look at the gifs in the thread I posted, you’ll see it happened on multiple occasions in this fight, AND in other fights. Also, Sherk has complained about GSP greasing, and Mayhem stated in an interview with FIGHT! magazine that somebody who kicked his ass in the UFC was greasing. Tito also made a similar accusation against Rashad, and a professional fighter in the thread says he saw something similar in Rashad’s fight with Forrest.
Show me the Tito accusation. Never heard that one before.
Rewatched Griffin/Evans between rounds. There was nothing that showed Rashad being greesed up. And just because of “professional fighter” says something, doesn’t mean it’s true. Remember the rant Mike Whitehead was on after UFC 92? Some of these guys aren’t the most educated and start making excuses for their training partners.
And I love how Mayhem (who has a criminal record), and Sherk (who was caught cheating himself), all of a sudden become credible sources.
And for the Sherk thing, show me the proof on that one too. Never heard of that one either.
Tito accusation is from the post fight press conference. Sherk accusation was from an interview, may have been with Sherdog. I’ve seen people posting saying they remember it, and it rang a bell when I read it, but I’m not going to scour every minute of every podcast with Sherk on it I may have listened to to find it.
Okay, I decided to look up the Tito/Rashad stuff. He did make the accusation.
Funny that when I was looking that up, I also came across Tito accusing Forrest Griffin of greasing up behind his knees to prevent the takedown.
So I would say Tito’s credibility is pretty much shot.
A simple google search turned up this for the Sherk accusation as result #1.
http://forums.mmanews.com/general-mma-forum/4618-sherk-accusing-gsp-oiling-2.html
It doesn’t have to have changed the outcome of the fight for it to be a big issue. A cornerman could be banned for life. That’s not a non-issue.
Also, there’s a big difference between various accusations from previous fights and actual video footage of the cornerman rubbing GSP’s back before Round 2 right after he had just been rubbing vaseline on GSP’s face; and video footage of the NSAC inspector being thrown a towel in the seconds immediately before Round 3 started and rubbing GSP’s back with it for a couple of seconds before the round started; and video footage of GSP’s back getting a more thorough rubdown between Rounds 3 and 4.
I do think that cornerman should be banned for life. Whether he says it’s a mistake or not, that’s a complete no no.
Personally, I don’t think the guys for the commission do enough. I hate it when a fighter has water poured on them right before the start of the next round. That should be wiped off, and it almost never is.
As for this issue, it’s not much of an issue. It was wiped off. It didn’t effect the fight.
Looking up greasing, there have been many claims of fighters doing it. Nogueira’s corner said Sylvia put on some sort of lotion. I remember Josh Thomson accusing Clay Guida of doing it.
Not sure how often it goes on, but I do think it helps some of the losing fighters (or fighters who took a beating and still winning) sleep better at night.
Look at the tape. It appeared to be applied after Round 1 and NOT rubbed off at all until after Round 2, and even then it was only a very brief rub in the seconds immediately before Round 3 started. The thorough rub-down is not until after Round 3. Just saying “It was wiped off” doesn’t turn it into a non-story. Like I said before, I’m not saying that this is why GSP won the fight, but to say that it didn’t happen or is not newsworthy is to simply ignore the evidence.
It wasn’t wiped off the first time it was applied, and there’s no way to know if it mixed with his sweat and spread, got on BJ’s legs, etc between when it was applied (that we know of) at the start of round 2 (before they had even hit the groudn the first time.and GSP was wiped between rounds 3 and 4, or if said vaseline hindered BJ’s ability to be effective with his jujitsu game to a point that would affect the outcome of the fight.
Apologies for the butchered post, I was having a glitch where I couldn’t see a large portion of the text after I typed it.
The guy who does it, is Phil Nurse Georges’ Muay Thai trainer. It’s not uncommon for Thai trainers to rub their fighter’s head, back & legs.
The question is whether Nurse rubbed Vaseline on St-Pierre, gifs of him just rubbing his body is useless when there are reports of the commission taking Vaseline from his corner and rubbing him down in between rounds. Evidence of the later could be damning, especially if it’s a trend.
But like I said the commission saw it happen during Saturday’s bout and stopped it, I doubt it had much effect if any on the outcome of the fight.
If you watch the footage rather than just the gifs, you can clearly see vaseline being rubbed first on GSP’s face, then immediately on his body. The GIF of the incident between round 1-2 starts too late to see it. As for the vaseline being taken away, both that and the vaseline being rubbed off weren’t until the later rounds, when the vaseline already would’ve had time to affect the fight.
“If you watch the footage rather than just the gifs, you can clearly see vaseline being rubbed first on GSP’s face, then immediately on his body.”
That is true, or at least that the same hand that was rubbing vaseline on his face is immediately thereafter rubbing vaseline on his body. It’s between Rounds 1 and 2 and it’s clear as day on the tape.
No one would be banned for life for greasing. That is completely false and has never happened. You should not be spreading such false rumors.
Ivan Trembow seems to really be pushing this story hard and making outrageous claims. Not sure why but it seems suspicious to me.
During a fight any fighter can complain to the commission about greasing and all they have to do is just feel the opponents body to see if it’s true. Very simple. For the trainer of such an elite fighter to intentionally do this in the biggest fight of his life while being directly observed by officials is preposterous.
First of all, did Penn or his corner actually complain about this during the fight? Is this what prompted the commission to take action? If not, I cannot give this complaint any credence. Second, if the commission found this out between rounds 2 and 3, then presumably after that point they made sure GSP was not greased. And rounds 3 and 4 were when he did the most damage and dominated on the ground. So clearly the greasing is not what allowed GSP to dominate and finish this fight.
BJ Penn should really be ashamed of himself not only for quitting on his stool after talking so much shit, but now for trying to make excuses. Especially considering the point I just made about rounds 3 and 4. I have lost alot of respect for BJ Penn because of this. I dont lose respect for a fighter for quitting- but to personally insult another fighter’s heart and then to quit himself is just pathetic.
I rewatched it.
There is no way of knowing if there was still any vasoline on his hands by the time he rubbed the rest of his body.
Heck, take some KY, which is a far better lubricant then vasoline…. And if I were to rub my own face with it as much as his trainer did, by the time i went to rub the rest of my body, there wouldn’t be any substance being rubbed. And if there were, they would be such minimal traces that it wouldn’t have an impact on the fight.
I’m not saying GSP’s vasoline guy did good things here. But if he rubbed the body first, then BJ’s corner would have a case. He did not. And without knowing if there was any substance still on his fingers by the time he rubbed GSP’s body, there is no way for Penn’s team to win this.
So, if BJ had spent his entire career in UFC instead of putting in time in K-1…would the battle lines be the same on this issue?
No to mention that the commission itself specifically mandates that vaseline to be glopped all over the fighers’ faces before the fight and due to sweat and the fact the fighters are wrestling and grappling, the vaseline inevitably gets all over the fighter’s upper body.
Big Nog has said that that was a major change when he came to the UFC that fighters were alot more slippery because of the vaseline that they are allowed to put on their face, which eventually ends up on their bodies. In Pride no vaseline was allowed whatsoever. Considering that the fighters ARE grappling, I dont think any vaseline should be used in MMA.
“Ivan Trembow seems to really be pushing this story hard and making outrageous claims. Not sure why but it seems suspicious to me.”
Its because he pops boners hating on anything UFC. Take most of what he says with a grain of salt.
GSP is my all-time favorite fighter and this is breaking my heart right now. I thought it was awfully weird that Penn’s rubber guard seemed useless against GSP during the fight.
I guess that I, and for that matter all of us, will have to wait and see how this plays out.
[Ivan Trembow seems to really be pushing this story hard and making outrageous claims. Not sure why but it seems suspicious to me.]
Ivan is a sensationalist, especially when the UFC is involved, look at this statement…
[I’d imagine that if this had been anything other than a huge fight, the fighter who got vaseline put on his back would have been disqualified on the spot.]
This is completely bogus, and 100% horse sh-t. When has a fighter been disqualified on the spot for that act?
Since Ivan avoided my questioning (like he always does) like the plague I went to the unified rules myself and looked it up and here’s what it states.
NAC 467.598 Physical appearance of unarmed combatants.
2. The excessive use of grease or any other foreign substance may not be used on the face or body of an unarmed combatant. The referees or the Commission’s representative in charge shall cause any excessive grease or foreign substance to be removed.
Sounds exactly like what the commission did to me.
With all due respect, I only saw BJ Penn try to use his rubber guard once in that fight. And as I pointed out before, the vast majority of the time that GSP was in Penn’s guard was in rounds 3 and 4. And by the point there could not have been any grease on GSP’s body. And if it was in fact between rounds 1 and 2 that the commission found him greasy, then my point is even more strong.
lol, Dana White said himself that the cornerman should be banned for life unless it was accidental, so it’s not just me imagining this.
Isn’t it a possibility that he only tried to use it once because it was ineffective, and a factor in it being ineffective was vaseline being on the area he was trying to grip with his legs?
It’s possible that he also decided that defending the takedown was ineffective after the first round. Whatever strategy choices BJ was making, they were incredibly ineffective.
samscaff makes the best arguement of any of us. I’m going to give some examples of how this can effect a fight….
1. GSP goes for a single on BJ’s right leg. During that time, GSP’s face rubs against Penn’s leg. Now, BJ’s leg is greased and he might have an easier time avoiding takedowns.
2. GSP is in Penn’s guard. During this time, his face rubs up against Penn’s chest. Now Penn has a greased chest. if Penn gets on top later in the fight, his slippery body could make it easier to pass guard.
3. GSP goes for a guillotine against Penn. During the process, his forearms now have vasoline on it. During the next standup exchange, BJ goes to grab for GSP’s arm for wrist control. Due to the vasoline, the arm keeps slipping out.
If the commission had a real problem with vasoline, they would be banning it all together. They obviously do not.
Avoided once again.
And big LOL @ “Dana White said himself”. When did Dana become a credible figure in your eyes? Moreover, who gives a damn what Dana has to say pertaining to the unified rules? Is he on the commission? You’ve been running your mouth about how the UFC had nothing to do with the creation of the rules. So why does it matter what Dana says at all.
Btw Dana also said it’s up to the commission..and according to the rules they did the right thing.
[…] Fightopinion.com informa que el campo de entrenamiento de B.J. Penn ah puesto una severa queja ante la NSAC (Comision atletica de California) en contra de George St. Pierre, su equipo de entrenamiento y el resultado de la pelea de anoche. Los argumentos son que uno de los los coach (cornermans) untaron a este (St.Pierre) pomada entre round y round en la espalda. Esto es claramente visto en los vídeos e imágenes de el evento. […]
I wrongly picked Penn to win, but this is a non-scandal and a non-issue. One of the few times this site starts to seem a little Sherdog-esque.
GSP’s face was rubbed with vaseline, which was permitted. Unless I’m looking at different footage, his upper body was then rubbed, but not with new dollops of vaseline, merely with the same hands. Why is the assumption that any vaseline remained (or a significant enough amount to alter the fight)? GSP’s face probably put more vaseline on Penn than Phil Nurse’s hands.
It was also done if full view of the commission officials, 16,000 live fans, Dana White, and the 1 million plus PPV viewers. The NSAC intervened and rubbed it off when it appeared that some vaseline may have ended up on GSP’s body.
Penn lost to a bigger, stronger, faster, better fighter.
FF
Ivan Trembow Says:
“lol, Dana White said himself that the cornerman should be banned for life unless it was accidental, so it’s not just me imagining this.”
Ivan, buddy, are you serious? Dana White’s opinion about anything rule-related is obviously useless. He defended roider Sean Sherk like he was his mother.
We’re talking about actual potential punishment here, not the opinion of an indefatigable hothead.
This isnt like loading someone’s gloves or removing padding…that deserves a lifetime ban..and criminal charges. For god’s sake, Gilbert Yvel is the only current MMA fighter I can think of who deserves a lifetime ban and he was just licensed by the CSAC.
You said it as if it was fact that GSP’s trainer could be banned for life. There is no evidence to suggest that any punishment would be that severe.
While watching the fight (before hearing anything about vasoline), I had the thought many, many times that BJ was getting no traction on GSP’s back with his legs. They slipped right off, when it tried to throw is legs up. Now, later in the fight this could happen because of sweat, but it happened too early.
What the vasoline could have done was save GSP from submissions. Yes, BJ was getting beat in all other aspects, but it’s not fair that the submissions were taken away by GSP being more slippery than allowed.
GSP won, but it tarnishes the victory.
That said, if I was BJ, I wouldn’t even want a 3rd match, because even without GSP being slippery, he still got a beating on the feet.
Vaseline should be illegal in MMA, like in Japan.
man, I just watched htat giff and I’m still unconvinced. I know a lot of folks seem to think it is 100% proof of cheating but to ME it looked like he was rubing the temples of GSP, relaxing him. When you put vasalene on you rub it above the eyes and across the face, the trainer just makes little messaging circles around GSPs eyes then kind of presses on his chest and back, another message technique. As far as other fighters bringing it up…what ever som many fighters who loose come up with reasons, let the comish work it out.
ok so my reasoning above looks like a pretty big reach, still I want to hear from the comish before I crucify GSP. For instance was there addition vasalene intoduced or was it just “spill over” from his face?