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Just asking…
By Zach Arnold | September 24, 2008
Every MMA site went out of their way to cover the DREAM 6 event as if it was a big deal, and yet when the bad TV ratings predictably were released, none of these sites are talking about the fallout. I am curious as to why…
Topics: DREAM, Japan, K-1, Media, MMA, Zach Arnold | 55 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
i agree. not 1 mention of the pathetic rankings were mentioned anywhere. why? i dont know. i guess maybee they think the fans dont care about the ratings, just the fights. but without the ratings, there will be no more fights. i think the is alot of anti-ufcism from the fans who blog alot on mma-based websites. why that is i dont know either. i think alot of sites are afraid of posting negative reports about other mma organizations, true facts or not, because they might come across as pro-ufc or anti- anyone else. just my 2 cents.
probably cuz no one gives two s—s about Japanese television ratings?
1. They don’t know how to interpret the ratings
2. They are completely unaware of the perilous situation DREAM, and all of Japanese MMA is in. Typically, these people think Japan is a hotbed of MMA activity and interest.
3. They don’t care about ratings and only want to talk about the fights. They may not care if DREAM survives or not and are confident that some other group will pop up to give the fighters a place to fight.
4. The are in denial about the failure of non-UFC groups and Japanese MMA.
ask and you shall receive Zach..we should have something up later tonight.. i think we have one reader that will be interested….
because it’s really, really hard to explain to american readers how a 9.0 rating with a high of 13.4 is bad.
I’d say to a large degree because a LOT of the MMA consumers don’t want to hear about the business, especially negative things about smaller promotions. Plus, its a hell of a lot harder to talk about the business in Japan than over in the US.
Holy shit, Arlovski vs. Nelson on CBS!
The dominant storyline going into the DREAM 6 show was whether or not the promotion could draw a TV rating and survive long-term. Seriously. This was something that even the event promoters publicly admitted.
What does 10% mean. If 10% of Japan watched Dream 6 then that’s good ratings, its like less than half of Desperate Housewives viewership.
A lot, not all, of these people are naive and oblivious that MMA is a business before it’s a sport. It is not a sport unless it’s a business. Sometimes reality is a rude awakening for these people that want to get away from their normal, stressful lives and want to live vicariously through fighters and the product presentation.
It’s like people who are fans of a huge primetime network series who don’t want to hear about ratings and Hollywood politics, they just want to get lost in the storyline fantasy.
Better question: Why is it assumed that fans are interested in the business end of MMA before the sport side of MMA? Because honestly, most of them do not give a shit, and there is no reason for them to give a shit. If there’s some guy toiling over the numbers, trying to figure out whether or not the Kansas City Royals are truly solvent or running in the red and unable to compete with the big market teams, he ain’t with CBS Sportsline, SI/CNN, or ESPN, or even the local newspapaer.
No one, including this site, reported on the shitty numbers the last WEC pulled if I recall correctly.
It’s like people who are fans of a huge primetime network series who don’t want to hear about ratings and Hollywood politics, they just want to get lost in the storyline fantasy.
Yeah, those are called “normal people”. They tend to watch their favorite TV shows because they are their favorite TV shows. Jesus christ, listen to yourself. Do you think there’s millions of copies of Variety landing on the doorsteps of housewives in the suburbs? No, doggie. No.
But WEC still exists even after shitty numbers, and will probably keep getting shitty ratings in the future and will most likely still be on Versus b/c the network is still happy.
This may have been DREAM’s last show directly related to shitty numbers, and the network isn’t happy about it.
That’s the difference.
We did.
You’re also comparing apples and oranges between WEC and DREAM. DREAM is fighting for its life and it’s oxygen is being on a major free-to-air broadcast TV network in Japan. Without it, the business model ceases to exist. WEC’s business model, on the other hand, is profitable and will remain that way for a long time to come. Two totally different organizational structures. DREAM is supposed to be Japan’s only major MMA play left. Not so major, now.
Given the amount of promotions that have opened up and shut down in a short time span, I’d say it’s a pretty damn important issue to care about because it hits at the core issue that you want as a fan — trust. Trust that you’re going to see the fights that you want and trust in the company that you pay to watch PPVs of. Fans trust UFC because they know the operation isn’t going out of business and that the company can deliver the goods.
There’s plenty of reason for fans to care about this. Unlike other sports, this industry is still very young and the more companies fail in this business, the worse off the long-term health of the industry is going to be.
You’re right — the concept of Moneyball never generated any press or any sort of influence in the sport of baseball.
You’re right — no one ever talks about the prospects of the Jacksonville Jaguars, an NFL team, having to relocate to another city because the fans can’t support that operation.
You’re right — no one in the media ever talks about the pathetic ticket sales the Florida Marlins have for games at Dolphins Stadium.
Zach aren’t you jumping to conclusions. Yes it has been stated by Sasahara and Tanigawa that DREAM would be dissolved if DREAM 6 drew poor ratings, yet the consensus is there will be a NYE MMA event in Saitama, presumably under the DREAM banner. Though all the signs indicate that MMA in is on the outs with the Japanese, you can’t say that FEG will allow mainstream MMA to simply disappear.
DREAM is having an NYE event? Where did you heart his? If anything, I’d assume that FEG would simply roll a few MMA superfights onto the K-1 Premium Dynamite card, as they used to do with the HERO’S fighters. I think for certain they will not be producing a stand-alone event on the same night as Dynamite.
First of all DREAM 6 wasn\’t even live in Japan. So people probably new the outcome and watched it anyway. Plus DREAM is having their own NYE event its going to be called Yarennoka 2008. If you watched the whole Japanese broadcast you would of heard this.
There’s plenty of reason for fans to care about this. Unlike other sports, this industry is still very young and the more companies fail in this business, the worse off the long-term health of the industry is going to be.
That doesn’t change that the vast majority of fans are interested primarily in the fights first and foremost, just as the vast majority of baseball fans care about the games more than they do about what the advertising budget is for next year and whether or not that means an end to bobblehead day.
You’re right — the concept of Moneyball never generated any press or any sort of influence in the sport of baseball.
Have you ever read Moneyball? Its not a book about business. That’s enormously secondary. Its about sabermetrics and the new statistics of baseball being used to build winning teams that are capable of beating big budget squads. You can argue perhaps that the comparison with MMA would be that MMA organizations are spending money the wrong way, but there is no equivalency to sabermetrics in MMA that ensure financial success.
You’re right — no one ever talks about the prospects of the Jacksonville Jaguars, an NFL team, having to relocate to another city because the fans can’t support that operation.
Compared to talk about who is injured for this week? Its a minor issue that largely is of interest to Floridians. I look at ESPN every day, Zach. Jacksonville’s potential move hits the front page as often as does Major League Lacrosse or the American Le Mans Series.
You’re right — no one in the media ever talks about the pathetic ticket sales the Florida Marlins have for games at Dolphins Stadium.
More often they talk about how the team was sold off piecemeal each time they’ve won a world series and how its burnt the fans. I suppose that’s tied in with the business of baseball, but not in a way anyone would want to see repeated in MMA. After all, the Marlins owners who did that made a mint both times they destroyed the franchise. Smart business!
You know, on second thought, let’s put this in an alternate light. You’re basically saying that you believe that in the end neither DREAM nor WVR will exist and neither will some of the smaller groups, but rather that Ishii, now fresh out of prison, will work some sort of deal to consolidate the talent and continue running MMA shows within Japan. That doesn’t sound like a “collapse” but rather a restructuring period, something I find a more sensible claim. I especially think that when somewhere between 9 and 13.8% of the population of a 130 million person country are watching the sport on a given night.
All the while, the business aspects of the sport are something completely out of the control of fans here in the States who are primarily interested in the events not because of how astounding the business stratagem is but rather are so fascinated that high end fighters are fighting one another. MMA fans are not business majors, nor should they need to be to care about the sport. Complaining that analysis of the fights themselves came first is utterly out of line when compared to literally every other sport and its coverage in this and other countries.
The simple answer to the original question is this: because there aren’t a lot of intensely dedicated fans. Most people want to watch the fights and maybe talk about them with the guys or sometimes even write about them on internet message boards, then that’s it. No one wants to analyze ratings and business models and buyrates because there are usually better, more important things for the typical person to think about.
Zach, I think what you’re asking is ‘why don’t more people look at this sport the same way I do?’ Well for you, following this sport is almost a way of life. For most other fans, this sport is simply one of many interests.
There are more people that won’t get the business end of sports than people not getting the sports end of the business.
I feel it’s a fallacy when people that are only focused, or marks, on the “sports-end” of the sports business try to use THEIR sports-end explanations, reasonings, and logic to analyze the business side of sports.
If someone only cares about the sport or fight itself and have no desire to ever talk or analyze business and go on with their lives, good for them. But they shouldn’t try and give their homogeneous rationale to explain the business.
But to Zach’s question on why these mainstream MMA news sites rarely talk the reality of business of these MMA shows, the people that run them are just as native and oblivious as the fans themselves.
Making two GP’s for the lighterweight classes is where they went wrong.
How can you be PRIDE v2 without any HW prescence? PRIDE was built on Heavyweights (minus saku and gracie) and it wasnt until the later shows that they implemented the lower classes
There are more people that won’t get the business end of sports than people not
Again: You shouldn’t need or pretend to have an MBA in Business Administration to watch or follow MMA, and that’s a fact for all sports and really all entertainment. I mean, christ, how many magazines did you see run front page articles in newspapers or magazines regarding No Country For Old Men touting it as lukewarm at the box office? Should they have done it with the same wild intensity that they applauded it as a film? If ESPN ran themselves like that, they would have been out of business in 6 months.
I feel it’s a fallacy when people that are only focused, or marks, on the “sports-end” of the sports business try to use THEIR sports-end explanations, reasonings, and logic to analyze the business side of sports.
Pro wrestling lingo! Outstanding. “Mark” is not intended to be the same as “fan”. Also, what the hell is a “sports-end explanation”? Can you even give an example?
The hardcore MMA Media has always put a favorable light on MMA in Japan.
1. They completely ignore the downfall of Pride until the very end.
2. They constantly ranked Pride fighters far above their UFC counterparts. A loss for a fighter in America always dropped them farther in the rankings then a loss in Japan.
So it is no surprise to me that this type of biased media coverage continues. Look no further to Sherdog’s Lightweight Rankings to see how bad it still is. It is filled with guys who mainly fight in Japan.
So it is no surprise to me that this type of biased media coverage continues. Look no further to Sherdog’s Lightweight Rankings to see how bad it still is. It is filled with guys who mainly fight in Japan.
Well, yeah. They should. A bunch of TUF guys fighting each other in endless round robins isn’t the same as long time established top ten fighters in the division fighting one another.
Zach, look at this from another angle if you will. Read this statement again, I have one world highlighted.
“…and yet when the bad TV ratings *predictably* were released…”
Predictably. This is a part of the trend. We all know that DREAM isn’t going to last forever, and bad ratings are bad ratings. MMA companies in Japan need to restructure how they do business, as the old PRIDE and K-1 competition model cannot work anymore. Getting 20% ratings and that being “poor” is a thing of past now.
MMA in Japan won’t die, but like D. said, it will be restructured.
I think you aren’t seeing a lot of coverage of the Japanese business end of things because, quite honestly, how many of us are that invested in Japanese business? People barely care about MMA companies in the United States and their financial statements. ProElite and IFL have done nothing but release SEC statements with mounds of losses, and you might see a post here and there about it, but really, nobody cares.
Most fans just aren’t up on it. If your average fan doesn’t understand an earnings statement in the US financial system, or even the difference between cable and network ratings, why bother trying to beat them across the skull with Japanese information?
There is a market for this stuff, it is a niche market and guess what, there are niche sites like MMAPayout.com that handle that stuff.
On second thought, for Zach: You want people to cover the “fallout”. So, what do you want them to write about? There’s some bad TV ratings and your speculation.
I’ve got it in my list of articles about DREAM to write, but it’s last. I still have to write something about Mousassi and Jacare being suddenly overrated via magical Japanese event syndrome (people calling for Mousassi vs Anderson are freaking morons), Overeem basically ruining the event (and NYE) with his ball strikes, and THEN i’m gonna write about the shitty ratings.
Plus, every time I think about DREAM i remember how fucked up I was during and after the show from exhaustion. It’s like asking someone to relive a traumatic experience!
Really, beyond the fights themselves, there are only two ways you can extend your MMA interest. Be a fan boy or be a smart fan.
I am very interested in the business end of MMA. Possibly because I am too old to be any sort of fanboy. I don’t wear MMA clothing, hang posters of fighters on my wall, or look to fighters as role models of any sort. Following the business behind the business is maybe my way of being a “smart” fan and separating myself from the crowd.
No offense bro, but that is incredibly closed-minded. If it works for you, cool, but not everybody is either a poster hanging fanboy or a number cruncher. Shades of grey do exist.
Really, beyond the fights themselves, there are only two ways you can extend your MMA interest. Be a fan boy or be a smart fan.
LOL. No. Rollo, there is a third way. It happens to be illegal in 49 states, but its a way. And it pays a whole helluva lot better than being a “SMART FAN” or a “fan boy”. Also, lol on being “smart”. MMA is a real sports. “Smarts” in wrestling are people that know its a charade.
MMA is also a plural all the time! Seriously though, what about smarts in football? Who are they? People who care about who is buying the luxury boxes or the ones that watch tape all day and learn about college prospects? Which is better than the other?
“LOL. No. Rollo, there is a third way. It happens to be illegal in 49 states, but its a way. And it pays a whole helluva lot better than being a “SMART FAN” or a “fan boy”. Also, lol on being “smart”. MMA is a real sports. “Smarts” in wrestling are people that know its a charade.”
I am aware of the origin of the term “smart”. I am extending the definition.
“Well, yeah. They should. A bunch of TUF guys fighting each other in endless round robins isn’t the same as long time established top ten fighters in the division fighting one another.”
Aurelio beat Gomi in Japan and is a marginal UFC Lightweight. To have a complete Lightweight Ranking basically with guys fighting in Japan is just fanboy garbage. Same thing that went on during the UFC/Pride days… Only to find out they were equal.
And last time I checked, a TUF’er just beat two former Pride Light Heavyweights. So being a TUF guy isn’t such a bad thing. Guys like Florian, Griffin, Stevenson, & others should be ranked at Lightweight. A guy like Kawajiri doesn’t have a top level win since December 2004, and is still ranked. It is kind of comical.
I am aware of the origin of the term “smart”. I am extending the definition.
To what? How is it that someone who watches MMA for the sake of watching MMA less “smart” than watching it, in part, for the purpose of monitoring the business aspects? Dave Meltzer is great at getting business numbers, but I could care less about his analysis of fights. Since I watch fighting for the fights, I’d prefer analysis of the sport than analysis of the business. Leave that for someone’s doctorate thesis.
This is one again prefaced with a no diss statement.
“I am aware of the origin of the term ‘smart.’ I am extending the definition.”
I don’t know if this is just me, but I prefer to leave the pro wrestling terminology and analysis to pro wrestling. I fully grasp the history of MMA in Japan and how pro wrestling plays a role, but starting a MMA “smark” revolution just seems ridiculous. This is like saying you are a “smart” NFL fan. Hardcore NFL fans will have all sorts of stats to throw your way, but most likely won’t be telling you what kind of local ratings the Broncos pulled down in the Denver Metro area or what is going on behind the scenes with the Yakuza.
Aurelio beat Gomi in Japan and is a marginal UFC Lightweight.
He also lost the rematch while Gomi and then sat at home for 9 months. Gomi fought and beat people.
And last time I checked, a TUF’er just beat two former Pride Light Heavyweights.
He did. Have the guys in the UFC lightweight division beaten such opposition? No. They haven’t. So they are ranked accordingly.
A guy like Kawajiri doesn’t have a top level win since December 2004,
Joachim Hansen isn’t a top level lightweight? Who did Stevenson beat that’s as good as Hansen? You mean to tell me that Buscape is clearly not as good as Melvin Guillard or Alvin Robinson?
Another example.
JZ Cavalcante… His two biggest wins are over Caol Uno & Vitor Ribeiro.
Compare that to Tyson Griffin who has beaten Marcus Aurelio, Thiago Tavares (still undefeated), & Clay Guida.
How is JZ ranked #6, but Tyson isn’t ranked? Or what about Frankie Edgar who beat him? Or Gray Maynard who beat him?
Pure bias. Nothing more. Nothing less. When you disect who they have fought (and beaten), a few of those Japanese fighters don’t deserve the be ranked above the UFC fighters.
He beat Hansen due to a nut strike. That fight has basically no basis on rankings. Take that away, and he has no wins. Yet he is ranked above the UFC guys.
“To what? How is it that someone who watches MMA for the sake of watching MMA less “smart” than watching it, in part, for the purpose of monitoring the business aspects? ”
But I was talking about people taking their interest in MMA beyond simply watching the fights. MMA, like all sports and sports entertainment, is full of extraneous BS. “Sean Sherk you’re dead!”, most of Dana’s comments on fighters, behind the scenes looks at fighter’s lives, etc.
Basically, my feeling is that I don’t like getting suckered by the hype and all the other crap. Beyond watching the fights, following the business makes me feel like I am a bit above the rest of the crowd and haven’t lost control of my senses, which is what I always thought “marking out” meant. Maybe I am a control freak.
Add to all that the fact that technically MMA is more sport than fighting art nowadays, even the fights themselves aren’t as meaningful to me.
“Since I watch fighting for the fights, I’d prefer analysis of the sport than analysis of the business. Leave that for someone’s doctorate thesis.”
Then why the hell are you constantly posting all over the business posts?
But I was talking about people taking their interest in MMA beyond simply watching the fights.
But watching fights is like, the whole point. And watching fights is, in and of itself, a pretty time consuming thing when you have as many fights as exist on TV at the moment. I don’t see how “smart” fans sit around talking about who is on the ring canvas while “fan boys” sit down watching fights, especially when some of them are betting on the action.
Basically, my feeling is that I don’t like getting suckered by the hype and all the other crap.
What constitutes “other crap”? I’d say excitedly ranting about about merchandising deals is just that.
Beyond watching the fights, following the business makes me feel like I am a bit above the rest of the crowd and haven’t lost control of my senses, which is what I always thought “marking out” meant.
In other words, you follow the business aspects to create a sense of elitism over the fan who watches the sport for the sake of watching it. “Marking out” is great for pro wrestling when it comes to people going crazy over something that is entirely scripted. Fights in MMA aren’t scripted. Basically, it sounds as if you care more about having something you can talk down to others on than you do actually enjoying MMA.
Then why the hell are you constantly posting all over the business posts?
Because some of the commentary is hilarious. The prospect of the GBP/Affliction deal with EXC is that there could be boxing on CBS, in primetime, next January. The only thing that’s been said in passing is, “Well, how will they do a bunch of MMA bouts along with it?” That’s a story that would be on main page of SI or ESPN.
JZ Cavalcante… His two biggest wins are over Caol Uno & Vitor Ribeiro.
Compare that to Tyson Griffin who has beaten Marcus Aurelio, Thiago Tavares (still undefeated), & Clay Guida.
Wait, what? He beat a guy that’s undefeated? How? I’m not taking anything away from Griffin, but the answer comes in your next question:
Or what about Frankie Edgar who beat him? Or Gray Maynard who beat him?
Because, frankly, none of them have differentiated themselves. Griffin has a great opportunity to prove himself in a few weeks when he fights Sherk. You ask about Gray Maynard, on the other hand, a guy with one fight ever against a potentially world class fighter. Therein lies the problem. When he beats two or three guys, we can go somewhere with that.
How is JZ ranked #6, but Tyson isn’t ranked? Or what about Frankie Edgar who beat him? Or Gray Maynard who beat him?
>Every MMA site went out of their way to >cover the DREAM 6 event as if it was a >big deal, and yet when the bad TV ratings
You are talking about english language MMA sites and japanese TV ratings.
I fail to see the corrolation.
Whether you or other american based sites upped your coverage had ZERO effect on the ratings.
But nice of you to throw yourself in the mix as if anything you said or did would have any bearing.
Its like the political blogger in france claiming that he has influence on american elections. its called being full of yourself.
The scandal is still fresh in minds (and Yamamoto and MMA have even been splashed again by the sumo pot scandal) and it take time to be forgotten.
There will MMA next year but whether it is called PRIDE, HEROS, DREAM or BOOM wont matter. I based what I watched this year not on the DREAM name (really? who thought this was good for a fight organization?) but on the cards and Grand Prix.
The best fight this year was Alvarez/Hanse, that’s what I remember and care about. Whether it was at DREAM3 or BANG3.. could care less.
remember a lot of these sites didnt even report the trouble Pride was in when they lost there tv deal. It was like this never happened and just pure speculation.
“Because some of the commentary is hilarious. The prospect of the GBP/Affliction deal with EXC is that there could be boxing on CBS, in primetime, next January. The only thing that’s been said in passing is, “Well, how will they do a bunch of MMA bouts along with it?” That’s a story that would be on main page of SI or ESPN.”
I don’t buy that. You go about picking apart small aspects of business stories while ignoring the bigger picture. You bring up a boxing/MMA card on CBS, even though thats a longshot at this point. If you think its a big deal, why don’t you bring it up, analyze whats necessary for it to come about, and what the implications of it are for the overall MMA world?
You aren’t doing that. Instead, you’re arguing about the distinction between fans who watch fights and people who follow the business, and so forth.
I think you put forth a lot of good arguments. But those are undermined by your obvious biases (TUF round robins? Are you serious?) and your generally negative attitude.
“Because, frankly, none of them have differentiated themselves. Griffin has a great opportunity to prove himself in a few weeks when he fights Sherk. You ask about Gray Maynard, on the other hand, a guy with one fight ever against a potentially world class fighter. Therein lies the problem. When he beats two or three guys, we can go somewhere with that.”
But one big win in the last 3 years is still better then no big wins in the last 3 years (like Kawajiri). You are tripping over your own words at this point.
I’m not even saying the UFC Lightweights are generally better then the Lightweights from Japan. What I am saying is that they are on equal footing. That the Top 10 should likely have 4 UFC Lightweights, 4 DREAM Lightweights, Gomi, & Thomson. Of course, things aren’t going to be exact like that, but you get the point.
This bias was shown before when Cro Cop & Shogoun came to the UFC. It is was shown to be incorrect.
I don’t buy that. You go about picking apart small aspects of business stories while ignoring the bigger picture. You bring up a boxing/MMA card on CBS, even though thats a longshot at this point.
Two days ago, no one even spoke of Affliction and EXC working together, and now there’s talk about a January show with them working alongside of GBP. That’s like, important.
If you think its a big deal, why don’t you bring it up, analyze whats necessary for it to come about, and what the implications of it are for the overall MMA world?
I enjoy watching others instead. Its blogging, man. None of us are doing anything important.
(TUF round robins? Are you serious?)
Yeah, I am, to be honest. Kenny Florian might be closer to a title shot now than before. Or not. Who even knows what BJ Penn is gonna do at 155? So in the meantime, the rest of the division fights each other and basically splits a bunch of fights. The fights are plenty good, but its impossible at the moment to compare them to the guys who were at the top 2-3 years ago when PRIDE was the dominant home for lightweights because they aren’t fighting each other.
But one big win in the last 3 years is still better then no big wins in the last 3 years (like Kawajiri). You are tripping over your own words at this point.
It returns to your definition of “big win”. I mean, you can always claim something to the contrary to try and establish your position.
I’m not even saying the UFC Lightweights are generally better then the Lightweights from Japan. What I am saying is that they are on equal footing.
How do we know that? BJ Penn is the #1 guy. I wouldn’t question that for a split second. Everyone else? I have no idea. When the UFC had no lightweights, PRIDE, Shooto, and HERO’s did, and they paid a premium for the best. Those guys never ended up coming to the UFC, for the most part, and so the fighters who are in the UFC at the moment cannot reasonably be compared. They’re typically far less experienced fighters and they fight amongst themselves. Those who’ve stepped up to fight BJ Penn have been beaten like redheaded stepchildren. Forcing 4 UFC lightweights in the top ten just because lots of people watch the UFC automatically devalues the concept of ranking via personal merit.
That the Top 10 should likely have 4 UFC Lightweights, 4 DREAM Lightweights, Gomi, & Thomson. Of course, things aren’t going to be exact like that, but you get the point.