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Sunday news review (1/6/08)
By Zach Arnold | January 6, 2008
- The Fairbanks Daily News Miner (Alaska): Justin Buchholz makes mark in MMA and is ready to do the same in UFC
- The Toronto Sun: Fights worthy of UFC on the TTC bus make it on YouTube
- Yahoo Sports: Wanderlei Silva will not drop down to Middleweight in UFC
- The Daily Herald (IL): Stratford Square in Bloomingdale packed with folks waiting to meet Clay Guida
- Adcombat: Minowaman — striving towards comic book perfection
- Fightlinker: Booking Ryoto Machida vs. Tito Ortiz is dumb
- MMA Analyst: Can Randy Couture escape his UFC contract?
- MMA Payout: Lawsuit provides glimpse into elusive world of fighter representation
- MMA Opinion: The DSE nostalgia effect
Topics: Canada, Japan, K-1, Media, MMA, PRIDE, UFC, Zach Arnold | 23 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Machida vs Ortiz is totally retarded.
Machida needs to fight a higher ranked fighter than himself, someone in the top 5, to establish himself as #1 or #2 contender. Someone like Liddell! Whoever wins that fight is ready for a title shot.
The logical match-up is Ortiz vs Silva II. This would sell like crazy and would be awesome. Hopefully Silva would end Ortiz’s UFC stint and establish himself in the eyes of the UFC fanbase. If he loses, Silva disappears from my top 10. And I’ll be forced to take Ortiz seriously again.
Anything else is bullshit.
I think Machida vs Liddell would be horrible. Two counter punchers sniping each other for 15 minutes until one wins a decision. Machida’s not going to expose himself for more than a split second, and he’s not going to hit Chuck hard enough to faze him, much less stop him. A disaster of a fight imo.
While I don’t agree with EliteXC’s manipulation of the weight class system, I do believe small changes do need to occur that are unified across the board. Wanderlei Silva’s size difference to Chuck Liddell exemplify this. To me, the weight class system has worked pretty darn good, but like any system, once it has been put into practice, small moderations should be made once it’s failures are shown. A better weight class system would be:
Super Heavyweight: 275 lbs. +
Heavyweight: 275 lbs.
Light Heavyweight: 205 lbs.
Middleweight: 190 lbs.
Welterweight: 175 lbs.
Lightweight: 165 lbs.
Featherweight: 155 lbs.
Bantamweight: 145 lbs.
Flyweight: 135 lbs.
Strawweight: 125 lbs.
What this would do is make it easy for basically any legit Heavyweight to make the HW (and not SHW) weight class. The large difference between LHW & MW would be reduced. And the huge difference between 170 & 155 would be eliminated.
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As for Ortiz/Silva II…. I actually think that is about as bad of an idea as anything I have heard. That is asking for a boring Silva fight. Silva needs to fight somebody who will bang with him. Heck, put him in there with Stephan Bonnar. Put him in there with David Heath. The guy needs an exciting win for both his own sake, and for the American Audience to experience his KO power. That just won’t happen with an Ortiz/Silva II fight.
As for Machida/Ortiz… I know Sherdog doesn’t have him ranked in the Top 10, but nobody can tell me the guy isn’t Top level quality. He has a win over 2 of the current Top 10 fighters, and has a draw that he should have won if it wasn’t for a fence grab. So putting him against Machida is a fantastic test for Lyoto. We have yet to see what he is like on his back for an extended period of time. This would test that.
I agree with 45 today. This is a damn near perfect fight for Machida. I’ve heard all his talk of late that he feels he’s ready for a title shot, but every time think to myself “but he needs to beat.. someone… first”, as he’s still not on the radar of most fans and really is yet to beat a top fighter at 205. Now with Quinton/Forrest’s next defense not happening until August at the VERY earliest, Machida needs to fight again, and as such, Ortiz is the perfect solution as he will certainly test LYOTO’s skill(Keep in mind Griffin and Evans FAILED this test), AND his name value is exactly what LYOTO needs to beat next. If LYOTO beats Ortiz, he can be put into a title match. May not be the biggest draw ever, but it’ll be logical – perfect for a UK show.
Now lets also have Evans vs. Shogun this spring and all will be well.
I don’t think we need more weight classes in the Unified Rules. Nine seems to be enough. The main problem is that there is too much of a gap between middleweight and light heavyweight.
To illustrate
Heavyweight: 265 (29.28% more than 205)
Light Heavyweight: 205 (10.81% more than 185)
Middleweight: 185 (8.82% more than 170)
Welterweight: 170 (9.68% more than 155)
Lightweight: 155 (6.9% more than 145)
Featherweight: 145 (7.41% more than 135)
Bantamweight: 135 (8% more than 125)
Flyweight: 125
Aside from heavyweight (which works fine with a large gap), the light heavyweight to middleweight divisions have the largest gap. That is too disproportionately large. A break down (if no weight classes were added that is) like this would be proportionate.
Super Heavyweight: 275+
Heavyweight: 275
Light Heavyweight: 205 (8.47% more than MW)
Middleweight: 189 (8.62% more than WW)
Welterweight: 174 (8.75% more than LW)
Lightweight: 160 (8.84% more than FW)
Featherweight: 147 (8.09% more than BW)
Bantamweight: 136 (8.8% more than FYW)
Flyweight: 125
Dave2,
While your method makes the most mathematical sense, and I agree with it… the weight classes also have to be marketable. This is one of the problems with Boxing. Besides having too many weight classes, they also have weird weights for the weight classes. Like Welterweight is 147 lbs.
So when the marketability of weight classes are taken into account, this is why another weight class has to be added.
81.ufc.com is up and running. The website is promoting Mir/Lesnar as Former UFC Champion vs. Former WWE Champion. So we know which way they are angling this fight.
If you watch the Mir/Lesnar video on the website, the hype is fantastic. They are pushing the angle of Lesnar being a legit athlete, but still attempting to get the Pro Wrestling Fans involved. And Lesnar is a great self promoter.
Interesting note that the WWE allowed the UFC to use their footage of Lesnar in the WWE. Very interesting for McMahon to allow this to happen.
D. Capitated will be having a stroke about them promoting it with the pro wrestling “angle”.
1.)I’d also like to give a big self-high five to myself and thumb my nose (nah nah) at D. Capitated – b/c Mir x Lesnar is indeed being promoted as the top fight on this card.
2.) I’m still trying to figure out why people are saying that Nog “struggled” in his UFC debut fight. He thoroughly dominated Herring in the striking department and was able to score takedowns. Outside of eating a 1 in a million sloppy high kick-cum-knee strike that shook him up for part of a round, he took it to Herring for the entire fight.
Yes, yes he will.
JThue and 45 Huddle,
Machida beat a Top 10 guy in Sokoudjou. He’s not ready for a title shot just yet, but he needs to fight a Top 5 guy to establish himself as the contender.
Most people, myself included, agree Ortiz is far below Machida. His 2 wins against Top 10 guys are against Silva, a hundred years ago, and Griffin, which was no more than a draw, at best. Griffin would probably smash him today, as would Wanderlei Silva. To earn my respect, Ortiz needs to beat one of those 2 guys today, or any other Top 10 fighter. Sure, Ortiz vs Silva II could be boring, as could any Ortiz fight…
I don’t think Liddell vs Machida would be boring – can the technician dismantle the knock-out artist? But if you do, the next most logical match-up for Machida is Jardine in a fight for #1 contender. Liddell could fight Thiago Silva for a good knockfest, for the next title shot.
I agree on Rua vs Evans.
Actually, if you argue that this is a great fight for Machida, it definitely looks like a great deal from his perspective.
Not only will he fight a guy who has had tons of exposure to a casual fan base, but he is one of the more well-known MMA fighters in the States.
This could give Machida a credible win over a guy that most casual fans know of and exposes Machida to at least some more casual fanbase.
“Dave2,
While your method makes the most mathematical sense, and I agree with it… the weight classes also have to be marketable. This is one of the problems with Boxing. Besides having too many weight classes, they also have weird weights for the weight classes. Like Welterweight is 147 lbs.
So when the marketability of weight classes are taken into account, this is why another weight class has to be added.”
Yeah they have the odd weights for weight classes in boxing as well. That’s why I figured that making the weight classes proportional, with odd numbers and all, would be alright. As for marketability, I don’t think it would be a problem. The two biggest PPVs: Oscar De La Hoya vs. Mayweather Jr. was at 154 and Mayweather Jr. vs Hatton was at 147. Boxing does have too many weight classes (17 if you counted) and they have like four (or five?) different international sanctioning bodies that give out world belts. That’s what’s killing boxing. That and the corrupt promoters, promoters putting on crappy undercards on HBO, top prizefighters ducking and rarely fighting, etc.
There is so much crap going on with boxing that I don’t think the odd weight classes really figure into it. Or maybe because boxing is so messed up, people don’t make a big deal about 168, 154 and 147 title belts. It’s only been recently, in 2007, that boxing has been making a comeback but there are a lot of fundamental problems that are left unfixed in that sport.
Sokoudjou may have been ranked higher than Ortiz somewhere(I would have wanted to see him tested on the ground before putting him in any top ten, and the way Soko looked in this fight didn’t bump LYOTO up in the rankings in my view, it only punctured the Soko-myth) – that’s a debatable point – but in the UFC, Rameau was a nobody and Tito is the gate keeper to the LH-elite. Ortiz has only really lost to champions, is the last man to beat the current top contender, and he “would” have beaten Evans if it wasn’t for the point deduction. BTW, how can you(klown) focus on the Forrest decision being debatable(in your opinion) and then ignore the point deduction in the Evans fight? Too much Ortiz-bashing for my taste. When you take his actual skill, UFC legacy/ranking and marketability/draw abilty into account, Tito is a -huge- step up for Machida, and the type of fighter that Machida needs to fight and beat. Both to prove himself against a more merited fighter than he’s previously met in this weight class, and to showcase himself to the “mainstream” fans. I’ve been a big follower of LYOTO since he showed up in NJPW, and really think and hope this will be his time to shine.
Whether a win gets LYOTO the next title shot of course depends on what Shogun, Evans, Liddell and Jardine do or do not do in the meantime, but Machida needs this Tito-fight regardless to at least have a shot.
One has to wonder how long Dana will be able to keep himself from signing the $$$$$$$ Liddell vs. Quinton/Forrest-fight. I’m really curious about what they do with Liddell next – if they just rest him until a title match, or if they dare put him in there with someone in the spring and risk damaging/ruining yet another huge fight.
Where are all of the people that went spastic every time PRIDE did a freak show fight?
I figured this board would be overloaded with them today with UFC promoting Pro Wrestling as a real sport and using WWE footage to hype UFC 81.
Hmmm, maybe they’ll show up tomorrow.
Probably because despite this being a semi-freak show, it still on paper is a competitive fight. The Pride freakshows weren’t even competitive on paper.
I’m not that bothered. If it somehow breaks buyrate records, I’ll be pretty shocked, but I expect the show to end up doing something closer to Silva/Franklin II than Liddell/Ortiz II. I think its a mistake to go that route for the UFC, because trying to associate their sport with pro wrestling after years of trying to purposely separating it isn’t going to work in their favor when it comes to hoping they can recieve mainstream publicity again from sports media. That’s something Liddell/Rampage II illustrated as being deeply important for the continued growth of the sport in the US, as it seems to have already hit a wall in buyrates and is on its way back to some sort of baseline.
[quote]Machida beat a Top 10 guy in Sokoudjou. He’s not ready for a title shot just yet, but he needs to fight a Top 5 guy to establish himself as the contender.[/quote]
Sokoudjou has a totally different skill set from Ortiz and has far less experience against top fighters. In the end, Sokoudjou may not end up being anything special. As is, he has an astonishing 4-2 record.
Most people, myself included, agree Ortiz is far below Machida. His 2 wins against Top 10 guys are against Silva, a hundred years ago, and Griffin, which was no more than a draw, at best.
I had him beating Griffin cleanly. He was fairly dominant against Silva.
Griffin would probably smash him today,
How? Why? What did he show you beating Ramirez, Bonnar, or Shogun that tells you he could beat Ortiz now? None of those guys fight anything like Ortiz.
as would Wanderlei Silva.
A guy who’s lost three in a row and previously lost to Ortiz would clearly smash Tito now. Yes, this is brilliant commentary.
[quote]I don’t think Liddell vs Machida would be boring – can the technician dismantle the knock-out artist?[/quote]
They would stand there looking at each other and waiting for one to walk forward. Either Silva or Shogun/Machida is far more interesting to me because at least they walk forward.
Wanderlei is my favorite fighter, but outside of Tito’s continuing injury problems, I don’t understand why people think a rematch against Tito would go any differently that the first fight.
Has Wandy’s takedown defense gotten better? Not really. Wandy only has a puncher’s chance in this fight, unless Tito’s injuries have really slowed him down permanently.
Machida vs. Ortiz is still a bit of a tossup to me. We’ve never seen Machida on his back, nor has his takedown defense been tested recently. Ortiz obviously has had on-going injury issues, which will cloud any predictions.
125
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“Probably because despite this being a semi-freak show, it still on paper is a competitive fight. The Pride freakshows weren’t even competitive on paper”
We don’t know that Brock Lesnar would be competitive enough for Frank Mir. Lesnar is a question mark aside from his NCAA wrestling credentials. A dominant NCAA wrestling champ getting into MMA is no different than a dominant BJJ/ADCC champion getting into MMA. Except the BJJ/ADCC guy would probably have an easier time adapting since they can use their submission pedigree to finish fights. All we know is that Brock can beat Min Soo Kim into submission and with all due respect to Kim, he’s a can. Remember, not every world-class grappler or submission specialist had a successful transition into MMA.
Showing WWE footage of Brock also adds to the freakshow element, whether he’s legit or not. Make no mistake. This may be a freakshow fight but I want to see this fight. I want to see how Brock can hang in the UFC with real competition just as I was curious to see how Choi would fare against Fedor (and he went above people’s expectations btw. Just look at Fedor’s face and how Choi was arguably ahead of the scorecards for 1 minute, 40 seconds or so until the second armbar. Freakshow or not, Lesnar vs Mir interests me and that’s all that matters to me.
I don’t understand why UFC fans should feel insecure about admitting that a freakshow fight like Lesnar vs Mir interests them. At the end of the day, you buy the product to be entertained. Also it’s quite interesting how UFC fans can be insecure about this thing when it’s apparent that there are more pro wrestling to UFC converts than there are say boxing to UFC converts. The boxing demographic is older and often snobs at MMA and the WWE/UFC demographics overlap.
For the record I supported the freak show fights in PRIDE. I’m also very much looking forward to Lesnar vs Mir.
My point is that this site was chock full of PRIDE haters who would always say things to the effect that somehow having Giant Silva vs Henry Miller took away from the Cro Cop/Nog/Fedor fights. I never understood that argument as MMA is entertainment and those fights entertained Japanese fans (and myself) in turn making money for the company and allowing them to put on the other great fights I enjoyed.
Look at the UFC 81 poster. Lesnar is in the forefront. Everyone else is behind his shoulders and head. A guy w/ 1 MMA fight (barely an exhibition at that) is being pushed harder than the interim HW title fight and no one is complaining. This proves to me that much of the anti-PRIDE bias was xenophobic and anti-Japanese which I argued for a long time on this board.
I’m just pointing out what I percieve to be a double standard. I’m looking forward to seeing what Lesnar does and if he wins and Nog wins then Dana has a $ match in Lesnar vs Sylvia. What if he wins that? Do you dare give a 3-0 fighter a title shot? He’d have beaten 2 former champions.
I agree that a lot of the anti-PRIDE bias from certain (not all obviously) UFC fanboys does appear to stem from xenophobia. Don’t know about this board (since I haven’t posted long here) but I’ve seen this on other message boards. I noticed on other forums that it’s quite common for UFC fanboys to accuse those who enjoy PRIDE to be Japophiles or “obsessed with Japan”. As if it was wrong to appreciate MMA outside of America.
It’s not just PRIDE and other Japanese MMA but anything that is considered too Japanese (ie. anime, manga, japanese-styled videogames, etc.) is given negative connotations in mainstream North American society. That’s why PRIDE was doomed to fail in America. The hardcore following helped PRIDE do well at the gate (#10 and #11 all-time in Nevada MMA gate revenue) but PPV buys were a flop.