Friend of our site


MMA Headlines


UFC HP


Bleacher Report


MMA Fighting


MMA Torch


MMA Weekly


Sherdog (News)


Sherdog (Articles)


Liver Kick


MMA Junkie


MMA Mania


MMA Ratings


Rating Fights


Yahoo MMA Blog


MMA Betting


Search this site



Latest Articles


News Corner


MMA Rising


Audio Corner


Oddscast


Sherdog Radio


Video Corner


Fight Hub


Special thanks to...

Link Rolodex

Site Index


To access our list of posting topics and archives, click here.

Friend of our site


Buy and sell MMA photos at MMA Prints

Site feedback


Fox Sports: "Zach Arnold's Fight Opinion site is one of the best spots on the Web for thought-provoking MMA pieces."

« | Home | »

About the discussion of Brock Lesnar and ‘the changing of the guard’…

By Zach Arnold | November 16, 2008

Print Friendly and PDF

Both Kevin Iole and Dave Meltzer have articles on Yahoo talking about how earthshattering Brock Lesnar’s win is for the sport of MMA and how Couture’s loss is a ‘changing of the guard.’

I’m sure UFC would love fans to believe this, too.

The fact is that Randy Couture couldn’t get Brock Lesnar to gas himself out in their UFC 91 title fight, and that opened the door for Lesnar to use his considerable 50+-pound weight advantage (and strength advantage) to bulldoze over the 45-year old veteran. Give Lesnar credit for pulling off the win.

However, to proclaim that Lesnar is going to change the game of MMA for a long time to come in the UFC Heavyweight division… arguable.

What I think I know…

Iole will push the UFC line as hard as he can that Lesnar will have ‘legendary battles’ with Cain Velasquez and Shane Carwin, but Lesnar would still likely lose to a lot of the top heavyweights in the business (outside of UFC). I’m not convinced that Lesnar would beat Andrei Arlovski, nor do I think he could beat Josh Barnett or Fedor. (The Barnett scenario would be interesting, as Erik Paulson would have to choose between game-planning with long-time friend Barnett or new champion Lesnar.)

In terms of marketing Lesnar’s next fight, you would have to assume that they are hoping Frank Mir can somehow pull a win against Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira. Lesnar vs. Mir is the much more marketable match-up, but there’s also a bad aspect to it. In UFC re-matches and rubber matches, the fighter who wins the first contest usually has a close-to-70% win ratio in the re-match. I don’t see much of a different outcome for Mir/Lesnar II as I would for Mir/Lesnar I. If Mir beats Nogueira and Lesnar, will everyone be ready to proclaim him as better than Fedor or Barnett? I doubt it.

If we get Lesnar vs. Nogueira, it will be a fun fight to watch but likely a similar outcome in terms of Lesnar just using his brute strength to overpower Nogueira. While a less marketable fight than Mir/Lesnar II, Nogueira/Lesnar would allow UFC to push the ‘changing of the guard’ marketing storyline if Lesnar won.

Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 75 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

75 Responses to “About the discussion of Brock Lesnar and ‘the changing of the guard’…”

  1. IceMuncher says:

    LOL @ A. Silva at #25.

  2. IceMuncher says:

    Oh wait, you meant Antonio. My bad.

  3. klown says:

    >> Zack Says:
    >> LOL @ Mir being in the top 10

    Mir has beaten Lesnar (#3) and Sylvia (#5). If he truly is overrated, we’re about to find out soon, when he faces Nogueira (#2).

    >> subo Says:
    >> Fuck, LOL at Carwin not being on the
    >> damn thing.

    Carwin has never fought a ranked opponent, just cans. If he beats anyone on this list, he’ll make his first appearance in the Top 25.

  4. 45 Huddle says:

    klown’s list is actually really good if you do it based on who has beaten who has beaten who. And technically, Mir could be placed at #3, since he owns a recent win over Lesnar.

    Either way, the way klown ranked them makes logic sense. But then when you look at the list, it is obvious that it stinks because many less accomplished fighters are being ranked higher. Which kind of proves why ranking this division is almost pointless.

    With that said, Sherdog’s Top 10 is kind of comical. More anti-Zuffa…. it seems like any division that they can, they will give as much credit to non-Zuffa fighters, even when they don’t deserve the ranking.

  5. Kelvin says:

    Lesnar mauls Mir in a re-match. He will not even try to take him down. He won’t have to.

  6. klown says:

    The reason the list stinks is because there’s 2 distinct groups here, loosely the US vs Japanese scenes, with little crossover with notable exceptions like CroCop, Arlovski and Sylvia.

    CroCop’s demise adds a lot of confusion to the list because he beat some of the best heavyweights in PRIDE before losing to 2 non-elite UFC fighters.

  7. 45 Huddle says:

    I find it funny how Sherdog has Ben Rothwell at #6 in the world. His biggest win is a washed up Ricco Rodriguez. He won a controversial fight against Roy Nelson, but Nelson doesn’t have a big win.

    Yet a guy like Kongo beats Cro Cop, and loses a really close decision to Herring, and drops right out.

    Just add to the fact that Overeem is currently ranked, it Sherdog is a joke.

  8. Ivan Trembow says:

    In response to the question that Zach posed about what the impact will be of natural super-heavyweights fighting in the heavyweight division, I wrote this in the other thread: “I don’t think it will have too much of an effect. It will just mean that anyone who is 230 or lower will be cutting to light heavyweight, but that is what already happens in the majority of cases anyway, so that’s why I say it won’t change too much.”

    I think it’s true about fighters who are 230 pounds or under cutting to LHW now, but that was the case already for the most part.

    But here’s something that I didn’t consider enough at the time: If natural super-heavyweights fighting at heavyweight becomes the norm (ie, people stepping into the cage at 275+ pounds), the fighters that it’s really going to negatively affect are the fighters whose natural weight is in the 230 to 249 pound range. Those fighters might be S.O.L. because it will be very difficult for them to lose enough wait to make 205 pounds, and it will also be very difficult for them to fight against fighters who outweigh them by huge amounts of weight. So I think that’s actually the weight range of fighters that would be hurt the most if natural super-heavyweights fighting at HW became the norm.

  9. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    I’m trying to put together an ELO-style ranking for heavyweights at least. Anyone have any suggestions on promotions that “need” to be included, aside from UFC, Pride, and Affliction(‘s one event)?

  10. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    Barnett is commonly ranked amongst the elite heavyweights, and he’s another guy that came down from Super Heavy, back when UFC briefly dallied with that weightclass.

  11. D.Capitated says:

    Just add to the fact that Overeem is currently ranked, it Sherdog is a joke.

    Why not rank Overeem? Because he hasn’t beaten Eddie Sanchez? I have a feeling he’s a UFC contract and win over Antoni Hardonk away from being #9 in the 45 Huddle rankings.

  12. 45 Huddle says:

    I don’t care who Overeem fights for. He is not a top 10 fighter. His win against Kharitonov back in the day was basically erased by losing to him. Since then, he only has 2 meaningful Heavyweight wins, against Buentello and Hunt. That isn’t enough to put him in the Top 10.

  13. Ivan Trembow says:

    I can’t believe that Riley vs. Gurgel got the Fight of the Night bonus. Any question of whether the UFC prefers good ground fighting (ie, Hazelett vs. McCrory) or sloppy stand-up fighting (ie, Riley vs. Gurgel) has now been answered.

    There are few things more ignorant or more frustrating than seeing a highly-skilled ground fighter choose to abandon their strengths and instead engage in C-level kickboxing… and for what? To please fans and MMA promoters who love C-level kickboxing? And now that whole ignorant mindset has just been reinforced by that fight getting the FOTN bonuses.

  14. klown says:

    Ivan, I’m with you. That was one of the worst fights of the night, actually. This kind of thing feeds into Eddie Goldman’s obsession with the UFC pressuring “wrestlers to kickbox badly” to please the mindless audience. Gurgel should be punished, not rewarded, for his performance. This disproves the UFC claim of non-interference in fights, since $60,000 is devoted to rewarding submissions and $180,000 goes towards standing and striking. In other words, the UFC bribes fighters to keep the fight standing.

  15. rainrider says:

    (In response to 41 and 42)

    Brock Lesnar not knowing how to finish fights doesn’t mean every fight of his will go the distance. My point is that he doesn’t have or intend to develop advanced MMA skills to tapout opponents. That is why I compared this guy to Sean Sherk and Tom Erikson, not Matt Hughes and Tito Ortiz.

    If lucky punch or any force generated by animal instinct or pure strength is considered “Advanced skills” in your definition, you need to stop watching MMA and go to the zoo.

  16. rainrider says:

    Couture VS Lesnar reminds me of nothing else but the old battle between Randleman VS Erikson. Bigger one got lucky with one lazy swing. The end of the story.

    Couture is too old to box and he cannot fight off his back. Like Chris Lytle said in his prediction, there was no way he could pull off a victory.

  17. Keishi says:

    Having watched this really built up my faith in the UFC.

    They did, on their first try, what PRIDE always wished it could do. Turn an incredibly popular pro wrestler into a champion.

    Doesn’t that cement their legacy?

  18. cyph says:

    Yup, now the Lenar haters are turning his win into a “lucky punch.” The MMA fanboy mentality never fails. Never mind that Lesnar has dominated every single opponent he’s fought, including his loss to Mir.

    Logic be damned, because luck dominated the fights!

  19. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    Luck? Don’t you know that it was god. God works in mysterious ways, and always to reinforce my personal opinion directly. If it looks like he’s opposed to me, then it’s because he’s working mysteriously again.

  20. dave2 says:

    It could be that they gave Riley/Gurgel FOTN because they wanted the distribution of bonuses to be more equitable this time. (Instead of having McLovin hog two $60,000 bonuses, the wealth is spread this way) However, the UFC gave two OTN bonuses to fighters before so I doubt the UFC was trying to be equitable.

    On the flip side regarding the whole UFC wants C-level kickboxing, I believe Marcus Davis and maybe one or two other guys have received SOTN AND FOTN before. So it’s not like you can’t get FOTN if you look to work the ground game. But I bet stand-up wars and KOs made up the majority of FOTN awards.

  21. Ivan Trembow says:

    That’s ignoring the fact that another, slightly-less-sloppy kickboxing match just got Fight of the Night recently (Chris Lytle’s most recent fight).

  22. cyph says:

    Sure, it’s sloppy. But if you disqualify sloppy but exciting fights, then the low-tier fighters would never win FOTN. Is that what everybody wants–that only the best of the best should qualify for FOTN? The rich will only get richer. These awards are arbitrary and not everyone will agree with it.

    The universal truth: the stand up game will always be more exciting than the ground game, even if they are both compelling in MMA. There will always be a 70/30 split for FOTN favoring the stand up. You can agree with it or not, but it is what it is.

  23. Ivan Trembow says:

    No, it’s not. That is based on the misconception that ground fighting is inherently less exciting. Go watch Maia vs. MacDonald or Reis vs. Cullum or any other recent fight that was a great ground fight.

    I’m also not saying that I’m opposed to stand-up fighting, I’m saying that I’m opposed to good ground fighters intentionally abandoning their strengths in order to instead put on a C-level kickboxing match and hopefully get the Fight of the Night bonus.

  24. cyph says:

    Fair enough, that’s your opinion and I’m not here to change it.

    But let me ask you this: How many FOTY candidates are stand up only fights and how many are ground only fights? How many greatest fights of all time can you think of that consisted of only stand ups, and how many can you think of that consisted of only the ground game?

  25. D.Capitated says:

    Funniest stat re: grappling in the UFC: Jorge Gurgel has made it a habit since he entered the UFC to, you know, never work his strength as a grappler, standing trading even with guys like Abbadi who had no appreciable grappling skill. And yet, looking at his pre-UFC record, 8 of his 9 wins were by submission.

Comments

*
To prove you're a person (not a spam script), type the security word shown in the picture.
Anti-spam image