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The media whining about Fedor
By Zach Arnold | January 4, 2008
For the last month, you’ve probably seen countless articles online from various MMA media writers whining and complaining about Fedor Emelianenko’s career direction.
You know about the boilerplate rhetoric — he’s afraid of fighting the best competition, his reputation is taking a hit, etc.
You couldn’t find a better paragraph summarizing the gripes of the MMA hardcores than what Dave Doyle wrote on Friday night:
The more Emelianenko sullies his reputation by fighting cream puffs, the less his long-awaited showdown with Couture will mean, regardless of which promotion hosts the event, if it ever happens. A match with Josh Barnett, the only world-class caliber free agent heavyweight, is the only match that could turn around opinion at this point.
The guy is not sullying his reputation one bit. He just took what was likely a seven-figure payday to headline an event in Japan and have his match aired on free-to-air Japanese TV (Tokyo Broadcasting System).
Fedor won his fight. He got paid a lot of money. This industry is business & entertainment first and sport second. Always has been and always will be.
The hardcore fans can’t have it both ways. You can’t sit and complain about the credibility of fighters while ignoring the crediblity of the employers that the fighters work for. Entrusting DSE or K-1 to run an operation based on pure sporting principles is silly. It’s easy to rail against Fedor for taking the freak-show booking, but nobody wants to lay a finger on DSE for being back in action behind the scenes as long as they keep providing fans with the proverbial drug. The same hardcore fans online whining about Fedor and his fight selections are the same individuals who mark out for the backers of PRIDE and convicted criminals like Kazuyoshi Ishii being in charge of the fight scene.
Funny that the ‘prostitutes’ get yelled at while the ‘pimps’ continue to get a free ride in MMA media circles.
Conventional wisdom, at this point, with hardcore fans is that if you aren’t not fighting in UFC, you’re not fighting the best competition. Take a look at the heavyweight scene in 2008 – Josh Barnett and UFC simply aren’t going to work together. Neither is Fedor or Couture with UFC. Nogueira and Sylvia are the top two heavyweight ‘aces’ for UFC right now. Cro Cop is back on the road to redemption. Mark Hunt is basically isolated at this point. So, how would Fedor fighting in UFC be representative of him facing ‘the best competition’ in the world at this point?
In other words, can you really blame Fedor for taking the easy payday in Japan (his primary market of value)? Furthermore, do you honestly and truly believe that this is a man who turns down certain opponents? I don’t know about you, but the fact that Vadim Finkelstein is close to Vladimir Putin would give me enough reason to think that Fedor is not calling the final shots as far as who he is booked against.
The tunnel-vision on display with some of the hardcore fans amazes me. There’s a reason Kid Yamamoto is not going to fight in the WEC, and it’s not because he’s ‘scared’ of Urijah Faber or the best competition in the world at 145-155 pounds. The main reason is because Yamamoto can make six-figures USD/per fight in Japan and draw big TV ratings, which in turn leads to sponsorship deals and other business opportunities.
Opportunities that no online MMA media Top 10 list could ever provide.
Topics: Japan, M-1, Media, MMA, PRIDE, UFC, Zach Arnold | 98 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Fedor is taking career advice from Roy Jones jr.
And look at where Roy Jone Jr. ended up. He avoided legit competition for so long that by the time he decided to start fighting them again, he was too old. Now his legacy is smashed to ruines.
Don’t even compare Frank Mir to Min Soo Kim. I can’t believe that Brock Lesnar is being touted as the favorite to beat Frank Mir. No one knows just how good Brock is aside from his wrestling and the fact that he can beat up on a can from K-1 HERO’s. Don’t be surprised if Mir pulls the so-called “upset” and subs Lesnar in the 1st round.
And that’s why the fight is competitive. It’s not a freak show. Contrast and compare that with the Choi/Fedor fight.
But why blame this match on Fedor? I think it should be clear as day that Fedor isn’t the one calling the shots. I think Fedor’s manager, which Zach hinted at, is taking advantage of him. Don’t put the blame on Fedor for taking this match.
I don’t think I’m blaming Fedor for anything. He’s gotta punch his own meal ticket. He’s gotta take care of his family. Just like in boxing, nobody likes to lose. His management is making sure that he doesn’t. Do I blame Fedor? No. Do I think he should continue to be the greatest heavyweight in the world as long as him or his management keep pulling these stunts? Also no.
Who did Roy Jones avoid? From what I remember he was stuck in a division where he was far better than everyone else.
I think Fans and websites are just pissed cos they cant see Fedor in the UFC so have to write all this crap about him. Just exactly who does Fedor need to beat in the UFC to improve his stock? Sylvia? Kongo? Herring? Big Nog? Mirko?
The UFC isnt blessed with enough HW’s which are any better than the people Fedor has beaten before. Fedor should fight Randy and Barnett and then retire. I dont blame him for doing what he does at all. He has nothing to prove. It wasnt long ago that people were eager to see him v Mirko and Big Nog and he took care of them. Yeah a fight with randy in the ufc would of been nice but it didnt happen. Lets move on. Fedor isnt ducking anyone!!
Sylvia, Kongo, Arlovski (if he stays), & Vera are all interesting fights for Fedor. Much more then anything outside of Barnett on the independent circuit….
Bla Bla Bla….he would loose anyways against Couture.
Rothwell, Kharitonov, Rizzo, Monson and Randy are just as interesting as some of those guys.
Sylvia and Arlovski would be appealing since these were the top UFC HWs. Unfortunately it seems Arlovski is iced and will be on the way out of the UFC. So maybe he can meet Fedor somewhere down the line. But Vera and Kongo vs. Fedor would be weak. Fedor beat Big Nog twice, he beat Cro Cop (who needs to get himself back up. God forbid he gets fed to Fedor now). The UFC HW division isn’t exactly in the best state right now. Right now the matches that would make sense for Fedor are Couture, Barnett, Sylvia and Arlovski. If he was in the UFC all he would get is Sylvia and Arlovski. In the UFC, He wouldn’t get Couture since Fedor isn’t the only reason Couture left (Couture wanted more money) and Barnett burned his bridges with Zuffa.
Couture stated that he left because the UFC couldn’t acquire Fedor. So you’re saying Couture is both a money-grubber and a liar.
Everyone seems to underestimate Tim Sylvia. All that guy does is win even if it ain’t pretty. I believe Sylvia would beat Couture in a rematch; he’s not gonna get a lucky punch every fight. Vera is no slouch either as he’s both young and talented. The guy lost a match with Sylvia after a long hiatus. I don’t think that means much at this juncture in his career. Also, don’t forget Werdum. A rematch with Cro Cop won’t be that bad either. Their first fight was a classic. Hell, I’d like to see how far Big Nog has improved in the striking department since 3 years ago. UFC heavyweights have to fight top competition every single fight. Fedor should too. If UFC fighter gets an easy fight, the fans would revolt. But Fedor keeps getting a pass. I have no idea why.
The point is that if all the top guys are in one division, you keep fighting them. It took three fights to determine who’s the better fighter between GSP and Hughes. Fighters improve or regress. That’s why they fight. The top ten in every single divisions have changed greatly since 3 years ago. Hell, it’s changed greatly since only a year ago.
We are now seeing some incredible athletes coming into MMA and it’s happening in every single weight class. What makes Fedor so special that he continues to be the best without facing any fighters of note? What is so special about him that he continues to defy the trend of the changing of the guard in every division?
That was part of the reason why he left. The main reason, as he says, was “lack of respect” (money). He also mentioned that he felt the guys on the lower-end of the payscale were underpaid so he left on principle. Couture felt that in relation to the PRIDE newcomers (particularly the offer they gave to Fedor), he felt disrespected as a UFC veteran with how much he was being paid. Does this make him greedy? Maybe. But it’s not like fight promoters aren’t fueled by greed either.
But that’s how it is with Zuffa apologists. Zuffa is a saint, Dana White is to be worshipped and the fighters are greedy money-grubbers who should know their place as octagon jesters who get punched in the face for our bread and circus. The Pro-promoter bias that comes from the UFC biased reeks of WWE McMahonism. I miss the PRIDE product and loved the spirit of PRIDE at Yarennoka! but I have a very negative view of DSE (maybe not as much as Zach though). I enjoy a good show regardless and I don’t need to worship a promoter in order to get enjoyment from mixed martial arts.
?If UFC fighter gets an easy fight, the fans would revolt. But Fedor keeps getting a pass. I have no idea why.”
That’s an easy one. Because Fedor isn’t in the UFC, simple as that. If Fedor was brought in the UFC and only got taylor-made fights then got a title shot, I’m sure the fans would “revolt”.
Dave2, I find it astounding you can accuse anybody of being an apologist. You turned a straightforward discussion about the fighters into an attack on Zuffa and Zuffa apologists. You’re a grade-A slimeraker.
Just to add, the whole thing with UFC fans bashing Couture reminds me of how PRIDE fans were bashing Cro Cop for leaving back when for more money. It’s ridiculous. I do enjoy watching Cro Cop more in PRIDE than in the UFC but come on, Cro Cop is Cro Cop and I follow his career just the same. Just as will be the case if Randy if he goes off to M-1 Global or something. There is something seriously wrong with worshipping promoters over fighters. Cro Cop did what he felt was in his self-interest and Couture is doing what he feels in his self-interest. This ECW-style “you sold out” mentality is juvenile.
I didn’t attack Zuffa
“But that’s how it is with Zuffa apologists. Zuffa is a saint, Dana White is to be worshipped and the fighters are greedy money-grubbers who should know their place as octagon jesters who get punched in the face for our bread and circus.”
That sounds like a criticism of the attitudes of Zuffa apologists, not Zuffa.
provocative article Zach. Made some people think
problem is, everybody is right in these comments
Fedor used the “sport” element to get where he is today. when he was coming up thru the ranks as challenger, of course, he wanted to fight the main fighters to prove himself no.1. Fedor’s success in the sport of MMA made him no.1 and respected in the MMA world.
no.1 carries status and $$$$$. however, problem is his mentality when he got to no.1. he likes the view and like anybody wants to stay on that throne as long as possible. there are two ways to achieve this
1. fight all comers (the “sports” way)
2. fight cans (the money way)
regrettably, Fedor has chosen no2 and all of the criticism he receives for doing so is justified
For 45’s concept to actually work, it assumes that Fedor is all about the money. It assumes that he did not care about the other clauses in his contract. It was pretty evident that Fedor was offered more by Zuffa than any other suitor, yet he declined to take it.
Most casual fans believe it’s a duck. He didn’t want to fight the top competition because he thought he’d be beaten. He is scared, blah blah blah.
My view on it is that he didn’t want to enter into a very controlling contract offer. Fedor WAS doing it for a payday.. outside of the UFC’s controlling contract situation that is now going to be a spotlight once the Couture-Zuffa debocle hits the news wire.
My apologies Dave2, you didn’t attack Zuffa, I just misread what you said. That said, you should still be ashamed, going off an a wild mud-slinging tangent.
Well the thread is about fan reaction to Fedor for not signing with the UFC and I criticized the fan contingent that has criticized Fedor and Couture. Fedor felt that the terms of his UFC contract were unreasonable. He has the choice to not sign. This may be entertainment to us but this is his livelihood. He made seven figures in Japan to fight in a country where he is more marketable on free-to-air national network television. That sure beats getting ranked #1 on some ranking by an MMA website. It can be said that he’s not #1 currently but rankings don’t really have any significance in the MMA scene. They have more significance in boxing, where world belts are given out by international sanctioning bodies.
Besides If M-1 Global makes it happen, Fedor can fight Barnett eventually. That would be great. But for Fedor, he isn’t happy with the clauses in the UFC contract offer so he has to go with whatever he can. I doubt that the Fedor-Choi fight was his idea or that he handpicked Choi. It’s DSE’s booking (this isn’t out of the realm of possibility. They are known for booking freakshow fights) and Vadim accepted for him. When you look at Fedor, you can’t help but wonder if Vadim is taking advantage of him.
I do believe that Vadim is taking advantage of Fedor. However, how does that take responsibility for his actions off of Fedor?
In any case, I’m for Fedor taking whatever deal is best for him. But Fedor has been quoted lobbying for the UFC to put together Fedor/Randy, stating that Dana is the only one standing in the way of the fight.
In light of that, is it any surprise that people who support the UFC slam Fedor? He made his choice, but he is laying the blame for the consequences of his choice elsewhere.
I don’t think Fedor even read the proposed contract. I doubt that he knows what’s in his contract now.
He has his guys, he lets them tell him where to go, they arrange his flight, make sure he has the kind of drinks he wants, and they make lots and lots of money off of him. Meanwhile, he relaxes at home, does some ice fishing, hunts some mammoths (or whatever you do in Russia) and spars with his Sambo buddies.
If Fedor had come to UFC, Couture would not have left. If Fedor came to the UFC between now and the end of Couture’s contract, then Couture would come back for at least one fight on that contract because he wants to fight Fedor (or says he wants to, and I guess you have to take him at his word on that).
But Fedor was never coming to UFC, and it wasn’t because of Fedor wants this or Fedor wants that, it’s because his managers weren’t able to arrange to ensure that they got as large a piece of the action from Fedor as they possibly could. It was far more profitable for them to set up a “new” “promotion” and farm him out for events at a couple million dollars a pop, keeping most of the cash for themselves.
But as Zach said, why yell at the “prostitute” instead of taking it out on the “pimps” (DSE and Vadim)? How can it be reasonably said that Fedor is ducking competition? He felt that certain clauses of the UFC contract offer were unreasonable. He’s not ducking anyone. Under the right terms (terms that the UFC won’t agree on), he’d fight Couture, Arlovski, Sylvia, etc. How can it be inferred that he’s ducking Randy just because he’s not happy with the UFC’s terms?
If DSE tells Vadim that they want Fedor to fight Choi (DSE books freakshow fights, just look at Sapp vs. Big Nog. There’s nothing unusual about booking him against Choi in Japan), what’s Fedor supposed to do? Tell them no and tell DSE to go find them someone else to fight him? (oh that would be rich, especially considering that K-1 was lending Choi in the first place). There’s no indication that he’s hand-picked Choi for himself. Did Big Nog handpick Bob Sapp five years ago?
Huddle, where is YOUR proof that Fedor was ducking Sapp and Sylvia while he was still with Pride?
When you say, the guy REFUSES to fight top competition, the least that you can do is to cite a specific instance on record to back that claim up.
Also, where is YOUR proof that, indeed, a better offer was on the table for Fedor to consider? I remember reading about the comments Fedor made about the UFC’s contract for him.
If that is the contract you say he should have signed, then I say, you ARE a UFC Schill
Some of the UFC contract clauses seemed crazy. Automatic contract extensions if Fedor was undefeated or champion at the end of his deal was particularly crazy. And this clause IS standard if you read the Sherdog article on the topic of UFC contracts. This clause screws over anyone who goes undefeated or becomes a champion. The only way to get out of that vicious cycle would be to lose or take a dive. Theoretically, they could own Fedor until retirement if he never loses. In no other mainstream sport would you see such ridiculous clauses like that.
Actually, I have nothing to say about Fedor fighting Choi or anything about Fedor ‘ducking’ fighters, because I don’t think its relevant in any way.
Where Vadim is manipulating Fedor is in the contract and terms he fights under. As the other jeremy said, I don’t think Fedor even saw the contract that the UFC was offering.
What is relevant is not Fedor’s credibility as a man. It is the fact that Fedor is not fighting legitimate competition. It is not Fedor’s credibility as a man, it is his credibility as the top HW fighter. Whatever his reasons for fighting Choi or whomever, if he doesn’t fight top fighters, he loses his place.
This is where the conflict comes in, in that many people refuse to accept this, and instead come up with excuses. Zach is guilty of this too.
“So, how would Fedor fighting in UFC be representative of him facing ‘the best competition’ in the world at this point?
In other words, can you really blame Fedor for taking the easy payday in Japan (his primary market of value)?”
Whatever the UFC’s HW issues, it has 7 of the top 10 HWs under contract. Moreover, the trend over the past two years has been top fighters moving toward the UFC, not away from the UFC. So Zach’s argument about the UFC not having the top HW competition holds no water, but he uses that argument to defend Fedor’s actions as a reason not to knock Fedor down the list. Then he starts waving his finger around to point at Vadim and Putin?
Let us look at the excuses Zach lists, in order.
1. Its a business, not a sport.
2. You guys are hypocrites.
3. UFC fighters suck!
4. Fedor is being manipulated, and therefore can’t be blamed.
4. You guys are tunnel-visioned!
Yes, many people on here may be UFC shills or apologists or whatever. But is it any surprise they are so busy apologizing, when this is the frame they’ve been provided with? Lets call a stone a stone, shall we: Zach is a Fedor apologist. He’s provoked a lot of different groups with this train wreck of a blog entry, and it is no surprise they’ve come out to fight.
So then he’s not a top ranked heavyweight on the internets. I doubt Fedor cares. Why would he? Why would KID Yamamoto care if Faber is #1 and he’s not? KID makes six figures a fight in his native country. Faber doesn’t. Internet rankings, which are highly subjective to begin with and worth no sort of real prestige, don’t matter and Fedor’s reputation is fine as it is given the payday and being seen by at least 11.1% of television viewing households in Japan during his Choi fight.
Dave2: I hear what you’re saying. Hell, I don’t care in the slightest what fighters are ranked; I consider BJ Penn to be #1 LW in the world, and forget the ranking sites.
Eventually, the more Fedor fights subpar opposition, the less relevant he becomes as a top fighter, much the way Frank Shamrock fell off everybody’s list after he refused to fight for several years. The question isn’t is Fedor good, the question is why should we care about him as a relevant fighter? Its a question that nobody has satisfactorily answered. If Fedor turns around and fights Josh Barnett in March, people will quickly drop their issues with him. But as it stands right now, Fedor has not fought a legit top threat in two years. This is why everyone is down on him. And this is an issue Zach has failed to explain away.
Also the thing that is annoying is not that people are saying that he’s not no.1 anymore. That really doesn’t matter anyway and people can think what they want about where he stands in the “rankings”. The annoying thing that I see is how casual fans and certain hardcores biased towards the UFC say that Fedor is “ducking” competition and just wants easy fights for the rest of his career. These are the type of fans that I can’t stand. That and the WWE McMahonism worship of Zuffa and Dana White. “They saved the industry, you don’t have a right to criticize them, he’s a genius, etc.”
The internet MMA community always seems to be at a certain extreme. Four years ago and before, PRIDE elitist fanboys ruled the internet and they were very obnoxious in the way that ROH elitists were. Then when the UFC become popular (2005), you started seeing UFC fanboys in significant numbers. Then with PRIDE on the decline in its final year post-Yakuza scandal, UFC fanboy elitism took over. It seems like one legion comes out in full force when the going is good but then they go in hiding when things are rough. You probably have some bandwagon jumping too.
Again, you go back to the Zuffa worship, which is annoying, but you gloss over the Zuffa hate, which is disgusting. Zuffa gets a LOT of undeserved attacks for all sorts of reasons. To be sure, they deserve some criticism, but I almost never see any that is deserved, here or anywhere else.
The above should read “There’s probably some bandwagon jumping too.”*
Yes the question of whether Fedor is a relevant fighter matters. Though there is a big difference between him and Frank Shamrock on that. There is a big question mark on Frank Shamrock now. We don’t know just how good he really is anymore because he hasn’t tested himself in 8 years. He beat Phil Baroni. That’s good to see. But the question of course is how he’d fair against tougher competition.
It’s interesting that you mention Frank Shamrock. I sort of had him in mind when thinking about this whole Fedor thing. Frank Shamrock is, in my opinion at least, an MMA legend for his career in Pancrase and UFC given all that he’s accomplished in five years of his career. But unfortunately his potential for greater stardom was cut short after he left the UFC and went into obscurity.
Fedor, on the other hand, has a more decorated and accomplished all-time record than Frank Shamrock. Also, Fedor hasn’t had the long lay-off from top competition that Frank Shamrock has had. I wouldn’t consider Fedor’s situation close to Frank Shamrock’s. Fedor did beat Mark Hunt Dec 2006 (who was a top heavyweight, not a Big Nog or anything but still). That’s a heck of a lot sooner than beating Tito Ortiz Sept 1999. Frank Shamrock is seen as a veteran who burnt out at an early age and is a shell of his former self but still a legend. I wouldn’t say that Fedor is a shell of his former self.
Dave2:
Don’t get me STARTED on Ring Of Honor (ROH) fanboys. I love ROH, and have been a fan of theirs since November 9, 2002 (All Star Extravaganza) but man are most of the fanboys (especially on ROH’s message board on their official website) are such total nuthuggers. Probably about as bad as old time ECW fans (I have been a fan of ECW’s since summer of 1996). ROH fans cling onto Gabe Sapolsky’s (booker of ROH, and former program seller/coffee boy of the old ECW) balls. At least that fat piece of crap doesn’t appear on the shows (only through commentary as Jimmy Bauer. He’s DDDAAANNNGGGEERRROOUUUSS!!) unlike Dana White (White reminds me of a bastard child of Vince McMahon and Lou Dibella. But unlike White and McMahon, I kind of like Dibella).
But a difference between old-time ECW fans and ROH fans; ECW fans would chant “you sold out” at wrestlers who would leave ECW for greener pastures (WWF, WCW, various Japanese promotions) whereas ROH fans damn-near DEMAND their favorite ROH stars go to WWE (or even TNA) but then bitch that they won’t be able to wrestle “their style” or crappy booking would impede their push.
I swear, wrestling fans can be such monkeys…
Also let me add that I don’t blame or hate Frank Shamrock for not fighting top competition. He can do what he wants. I’m disappointed on some level that he wants to focus on fighting Renzo Gracie, Cung Le and Ken Shamrock instead of going after established middleweight talent but that’s what he wants to do. But hey, I’ll still watch Frank. Those three matches still appeal to me in an entertainment-esque sort of way. Even if these matches are not supposed to make too much sense from a sportive perspective, he’s a draw in NorCal and the more hardcore base and fighting Renzo, Cung Le and Ken Shamrock would draw money in San Jose and with hardcores. Brother vs. Brother would probably count as a freakshow but you know that would sell on PPV. Even with casual fans maybe seeing that they know who Ken Shamrock is.
Fedor is unproven. It’s true. To prove something, you have to actually do it. He has only beaten 2 top guys. You can say all the hypotheticals you want “Gonzaga/AA/Couture is no challenge to Fedor… not worth the time… Fedor is undefeated and always will be for eternity… blah blah blah”, but it doesn’t change the fact that Fedor didn’t prove it. And we’ve all seen how hype always, ALWAYS, holds up in reality *cough*Crocop dominating the much weaker UFC Heavyweight division*cough*. Sorry bout that… something in my throat.
If Big Nog loses to Silvia, Fedor’s legacy would be worth about the same as Sokoudjou’s, if only Sokoudjou had retired after Arona.
That’s the bottom line. Guys like GSP, Anderson Silva, and Matt Hughes (especially Hughes) have defeated more top fighters in their division than Fedor has.
Fedor can do what he wants, fine by me. But after the new UFC heavyweight champ has beaten more than 2 top ranked heavyweights, I’m declaring him the #1 fighter in the world, by way of proving it inside the ring.
“2. As for the Entertainment/Business First attitude. The arguement has more holes then block of swiss cheese.”
I can not take you seriously if you can not spell argument correctly or use “than” to compare to ideas (opposed to then).
Disclosure: I do agree with Zach.
Correction for my previous comment, to=two… my excuse is drinking/smoking
Do any of you guys being critical of Fedor/Japan/Zach and using the term ‘mark’ even aware what that means? Fedor is a Superstar~!! in Russia and Japan. He is always well known within the hardcores in America and the UK. Its only the idiot hardcores who either arent aware of him or havent bothered to actually WATCH Fedor’s Pride career. There are MVPs and Superstars in sports entertainment (not a dirty word, just what MMA needs to be and in fact is) and then there are the OTHER fighters. And Fedor didnt just fight a nobody! He fought a big strong guy with heavy hands who is also a star. It made perfect sense to have that fight. American ‘hardcores’ are the real marks, marking out for Dana White and the UFC.
MMA is sports entertainment. In individual sports, entertainment is of higher value or else MMA will be like watching NASCAR. Just look at how everyone was saying that UFC 78 was boring. I get bored out of my mind watching the UFC sometimes. The last thing I want to see is another amateur wrestler get the take down and be in a stalemate with another wrestler or BJJ guy for 15-25 minutes. Or seeing Tim Sylvia content with just out-pointing his opponent standing. Boxing has it’s positives but MMA doesn’t need to borrow the “fight for the decision” tactic that a lot of boxers use.
That’s why I liked the PRIDE style. Low activity or stalling = Yellow Card. Trying to get the KO or submission has the highest rating in PRIDE judging. They also don’t bring back opponents who bore the fans.
For Pro Wrestling to call itself sports entertainment though is a stretch because it’s not a sport. If it’s a shoot = sport (because the competition is real rather than simulated), work = a show that requires athleticism and ring psychology.
Sweet … Controversial Zach Arnold in the house.
45 Huddle says that for the UFC, Sport > Entertainment but then totally contradicted himself over 3 months ago. Check this out. So it’s wrong for PRIDE to focus on entertainment but the UFC gets a free pass? If this doesn’t show UFC bias, what does? I typed in “fedor emelianenko” and “casual fan” in the search engine and ran into this. And yet you are surprised when people call you a UFC shill.
45 Huddle:
http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/09/11/ufc-75-draws-huge-numbers/#comment-35594
I always take someone who isn’t in Japan saying that something or someone is “BIG IN JAPAN” with more than a few grains of salt.
Japanese popular culture is as diverse as US popular culture. Presuming that Fedor is a household name because he fought in shows drawing tens of thousands of people is an iffy prospect.
It’s safe to assume that his name is known in the circle of people who watch professional fighting events. Going further than that is just bullshit on a stick coming from just about anyone other than a brand awareness pollster.
Reading this thread, a few different thoughts appeared:
-About 8 months ago, I was talking about how Fedor was #1 and would be until he lost. I also mentioned that there were plenty of guys, Hong Choi Man among them, who he could fight should he feel like he didn’t want to go to the UFC. Never said that they were better, just that there were guys not significantly worse than PRIDE’s heavyweights (or in the case of Barnett, Kharitonov, etc, people who were PRIDE heavyweights), but the same level of opposition exists elsewhere that he can fight that he fought all along. In essence, you can’t strip him now if you didn’t before when he was taking time off to heal his hand or other prior injuries that put off the first Cro-Cop fight.
-Fedor is ultimately responsible for himself. If he’s getting lots of money from Vadim to fight, and its comparable to the money he’d make in UFC with significantly less risk, why act surprised that he’d take the easier path? I think it is foolish to think it won’t affect his legacy, given that PRIDE’s existence 10, 20, 30 years from now will be but a small piece of the overall MMA puzzle.
-Its very obvious to understand M-1 Global and why it exists. Fedor is a big name who’s established himself on every continent the sport runs in, essentially. He is a meal ticket for Vadim for TV deals. For Vadim, instead of making just a cut off his fighters, his profit becomes that of the entire show. That’s a big difference. And you know its not his money that’s being put up….
The last thing I want to see is another amateur wrestler get the take down and be in a stalemate with another wrestler or BJJ guy for 15-25 minutes. Or seeing Tim Sylvia content with just out-pointing his opponent standing. Boxing has it’s positives but MMA doesn’t need to borrow the “fight for the decision” tactic that a lot of boxers use.
This sorta talk always makes me laugh. I’d like entertaining fights every time too, but this is a sport. If you can’t deal with a bad fight once in awhile, maybe sports aren’t for you. Reality has its drawbacks.
Who did Roy Jones avoid? From what I remember he was stuck in a division where he was far better than everyone else.
A number of names, none more glaring than the short list of Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, and of course Dariusz Michalczewski.
Huddle, the CFL analogy is broken. The NFL has for decades been the dominant league and offers the most lucrative contracts by leaps and bounds.
How quickly everyone forgets about Rocket Ismail. Oh, you did too? Can you guess why?
“This sorta talk always makes me laugh. I’d like entertaining fights every time too, but this is a sport. If you can’t deal with a bad fight once in awhile, maybe sports aren’t for you. Reality has its drawbacks.”
Well you are being judgmental then. I watch soccer (or football as properly termed) on a regular basis. The difference is that even defensive soccer teams attempt to score at least 1 goal whereas a lot of fighters (I’m not naming names) are content with just getting the decision.
In soccer, winning is 3 pts and a draw is 1 pt so teams can’t be too conservative to be successful. If you’re too conservative, like Italy was in Euro 2004, you won’t have enough points to qualify for the elimination stage and that’s what happened. If you have a bore draw, 0-0, in soccer, you pretty much get punished for having only 1 point. Before wins used to be 2 points but they changed it to 3 because they didn’t want teams to be so conservative and piss off the fans.
Sports change with the times to add some spice to the game. Just look at NHL hockey recently, they had some really significant changes to the rules. Why is it that the UFC’s ruleset can’t incorporate some elements from PRIDE (ie. maybe instead of yellow cards, deduct points for low activity and stalling) to make the sport more exciting? If other sports have changed their rules, why can’t the UFC?
Just look at NHL hockey recently, they had some really significant changes to the rules.
Right, but moving the blue lines and taking away contracted fighter pay are very, very different things.
Why is it that the UFC’s ruleset can’t incorporate some elements from PRIDE (ie. maybe instead of yellow cards, deduct points for low activity and stalling) to make the sport more exciting? If other sports have changed their rules, why can’t the UFC?
PRIDE was able to do it because it was their referees, their judges, etc. They weren’t just a promotion running fights, for all intents and purposes, PRIDE was also the sanctioning body. UFC isn’t. And that’s the difference.
I do feel that taking away fighter pay (10% purse for yellow cards) was too drastic on the part of PRIDE. I agree with that. Deducting points is good enough as punishment. Not bringing back fighters that weren’t exciting was fair on PRIDE’s part though. The fans don’t want to see guys out-point each other.
They should have allowed Sherk and Okami more chances to adapt to the PRIDE rules and environment though. Then if they still put the fans to sleep, then I can understand letting them go. Also I think Sherk, while his matches may not be exciting to fans, is unfairly labelled “lay n pray”. Sherk’s problem is that he needs to learn how to finish a guy with submissions or GnP but I wouldn’t consider his style LnP.
Thankfully the UFC is a lot more watchable than boxing in its current state though. I’m a casual fan of boxing and I’ve stayed only a casual fan of boxing because the out-pointing to win tactic is a much worse problem in boxing than the UFC.
And yes it’s true that the UFC might not be able to do what I propose (deduct a point for low activity/stalling) since they probably would have to go through the State Athletic Commissions to get that done. At the very least I would like to see the referees be more liberal in breaking up stalemates on both the ground and on the feet. I think in EXC they have more liberal stand-ups for inactivity/stalling on the ground (they have a timer of some sort) but matches like Sanchez/Palalei are worse than seeing stalemates on the ground in my opinion.
MMA is a sport, and honestly, I don’t typically enjoy watching Tim Sylvia fight, but any legitimate sport lets boring teams/athletes play just like the others. The NBA hasn’t kicked out the Spurs for being boring, no matter how much people complain outside San Antonio, and if they did, the outrage would be far worse than when the UFC lets guys go for being boring.
The fact is that being boring shouldn’t be illegal. They’ve gone far enough in terms of regulating the “excitement factor”. If they want to force action for KOs, you can always watch K-1.
“Sports change with the times to add some spice to the game. Just look at NHL hockey recently, they had some really significant changes to the rules. Why is it that the UFC’s ruleset can’t incorporate some elements from PRIDE (ie. maybe instead of yellow cards, deduct points for low activity and stalling) to make the sport more exciting? If other sports have changed their rules, why can’t the UFC?”
Because if the UFC made it that you lose points for non-activity and/or stalling, then it would look like the World Combat League (WCL, Chuck Norris’ kickboxing/full contact point sparring fed) or even Full Contact kickboxing (because minimum kicks per round is a GREAT idea ::sarcasm::). It’s bad enough that there are fighters in the UFC (and pretty much all MMA orgs) that flail their arms and look like Toughman fighters by not knowing how to punch correctly, how would it look like if guys who CAN’T punch then flail their arms just for the sake of doing something so they won’t get called for it? When it comes to stalling and anything like that it should be the discretion of the referee, not some stupid rule in the MMA fed making it so. Now CONSTANT stalling and doing NOTHING on both fighters’ parts sucks, and something should probably be done about it. And PRIDE’s rules about stalling, it was BARELY enforced, because I have seen many fights where very little happens, and the ref doesn’t do anything about it (except re-positioning the fighters if they are too close to the edge of the ring). Again, it should be referee’s discretion, not some silly rule.
And D.Capitated, about your comment on Jones Jr……..huh? How did he duck Evander Holyfield and Buster Douglas? They were heavyweights when Jones was a light heavyweight, and Douglas retired in 1999. I know that he ducked Dariusz M., but how did he duck Holyfield and Douglas, especially Douglas? Holyfield hasn’t been a cruiserweight since the early nineties.
The World Combat League is awful. That’s the exact opposite of what I had in mind. That league is mostly pure point sparring. There needs to be some encouragement for fighters to finish fighters rather than ride it out conservatively for the decision. There’s nothing inherently boring about a decision (see Fedor v Nogueira) but it’s when fighters fight for the purpose of out-pointing rather than finishing that sucks.
I’d at least like to see more liberal break-ups on stalling/low activity and on judging the fight, they should add “effort to finish the fight by KO or submission” as one of the criteria (PRIDE had something like this). But these two guidelines are up to the State Athletic Commission.
I think in EXC they have a “timer” of some sort that they use to stand fighters up but I don’t really recall much about that. I don’t think they have such a thing for breaking up stalling/low activity on the feet though and that’s unfair. Boring fights on the feet can be even worse (like Sanchez/Palalei) than seeing stalling/low activity on the ground.
And D.Capitated, about your comment on Jones Jr……..huh? How did he duck Evander Holyfield and Buster Douglas? They were heavyweights when Jones was a light heavyweight, and Douglas retired in 1999. I know that he ducked Dariusz M., but how did he duck Holyfield and Douglas, especially Douglas? Holyfield hasn’t been a cruiserweight since the early nineties.
Roy Jones has been fighting a long time, you know. Back when Buster Douglas was playing with coming back, Roy Jones called him out, calling him a fraud and so forth. They had a date, HBO money, and a location. Jones pulled out, citing Douglas’ size advantage. His comeback ended abruptly in CT against Lou Savarese instead. Jones would then call out name after name after name from 160 to heavyweight. Evander Holyfield was another man who the money and date were all ready for, and he walked out on it. Joe Calzaghe never made it to the discussion table. Nor did Vassily Jirov, who was heavily favored to get a fight with Jones by HBO following his performance with the late Julian Letterlough. Gerald McClellan was kept on the backburner for just a little too long, ending up instead with the fight with Benn. Mike Tyson? Never happened. Bernard Hopkins? 60/40, Bernard, or I’ll fight Glen Kelly instead.
Who did Roy fight instead? John Ruiz. That’s his legacy.
Who’s Dave Doyle?
Yahoo! is writing a lot of inaccurate information, but like they talk what UFC shows, this is an absurd!