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Thursday trash talk: Trigg and Toughman
By Zach Arnold | July 11, 2007
Yahoo Sports says the Chuck Liddell/Wanderlei Silva fight will not happen on September 22nd. UFC Junkie Finds White’s claims peculiar. Let me state one thing perfectly clear - both Dann Stupp and Kevin Iole are good writers. They’re guys who do not screw around. I suspect Dana White is going to become a hot topic on the next edition of Fight Opinion Radio.
Just a thought - is Chuck/Silva going to end up being the American equivalent of Sakuraba/Tamura, a dream fight that people will continue to talk about forever but will never see the light of day?
What can I say about Frank Trigg and Chris Rose doing commentary w/ Layla Kayleigh for “The Best Damn Toughman” show on Fox Sports Net last night? The fact that Rose deadpanned a hard sell for a tournament winner earning $1,000 USD says it all. That was one scary Oklahoma audience at the Toughman event.
The IFL stock is current at $0.74 USD/share. Update: The low so far today was $0.60 USD/share.
Our good friend Yeo Jong-Hoon pointed out a story in the South Korean media (links here and here) claiming that current WBC World Featherweight champion Chi In-Jin will be coming to K-1 MAX soon. Money is the big reason.
Mikeinformer points out to us the Yahoo Buzz chart on UFC.
Bas Rutten, Josh Barnett, and Jason “Mayhem” Miller attended the recent ‘Captivity’ party in Los Angeles. They were scheduled to do cage fighting at the event, but were stopped by overflowing toilets.
An internal debate about MMA at NBC Sports.
Eric Foster is coming to FIGHT! Magazine.
A reincarnation of Weekly Gong magazine is coming in September.
Cage Rage 22 card for this weekend.
Does anyone know if The Fight Network has a functioning RSS feed for their news updates? I’d also be curious if anyone can figure out if there a consistently functioning RSS feed for Fight Network Radio shows (the one they currently use breaks down from time to time).
Onto today’s headlines.
- Sam Caplan: Nick Diaz no longer contracted to Zuffa or PRIDE
- CBS Sportsline: Crystal ball - who will be the leaders in each UFC weight class a year from now?
- More than UFC: UFC more boring than PRIDE? You decide - a look at the numbers
- Bloody Elbow: California and oversaturation
- Fightlinker: Attention Cage Rage - The UFC just wants you to bend over and take it
- Ringside Report: Should Edwin Valero convert to MMA?
- The Metro Spirit (GA): Extreme Fight Night
- Komikazee: MMA Smackdown #31 featuring Eddie Bravo
- The Fight Network: No ESPY for UFC’s Couture, Jackson
- The Rochester Post-Bulletin (MN): Rochester ultimate fighter Travis Wiuff loves to fight
- The Visalia Times-Delta (CA): A sport on the rise - popularity of MMA growing
- The Clanton Advertiser (AL): Right around the corner for David Dismukes
- The Huntsville Times (AL): ‘Iron Brawl II’ set to rock ring at Crossroads
- The Medford Mail-Tribune (OR): MMA set for Friday at the Medford Armory (IFL fighter will be ‘guest referee’)
- Jordan Breen: Sakakibara speaks on the record
- The Cumberland News (UK): Karl Fearon strangles soldier into submission
Topics: Japan, K-1, MMA, Media, PRIDE, South Korea, UFC, UK, Zach Arnold | | Permalink | Trackback | Share This
Nick Diaz is going to piss off a lot of people if he allows emails concerning him and Zuffa to be released. That info should be private. Kind of like what happens in a dugout, stays in a dugout. Same thing here. You don’t see legit news sources releasing emails about how the negotiations for an athletes contract went. That is totally unprofessional.
There was a “Best Damn Toughman” show? Holy fuck! Is this the same Toughman that was started by Art Dore and where Butterbean got his start? I didn’t think Toughman was going to be on TV after their deal with FX ended.
Ed. — Art Dore did the ring announcing at the event.
I’m still wondering how Artie pulled it off.
BTW, if anyone has a copy of TOUGHMAN: Wrestlers vs. Football Players, You will be the coolest man forever.
That show was a perfect example of how screwed up a Toughman card can be short of death.
Ed. — Randy White was in attendance for the Oklahoma show that aired on FSN.
L-O-L at decisions being the measuring stick for exciting fights in PRIDE and the UFC. Too bad that almost every great UFC fight this year has gone to decision.
That Valero article is stupid, because TEIKEN is taking fights to build Valero’s skill, i.e. Honmo, who is a very durable, and extremely slick and technical boxer. Moreover, he’s on the map and will be able to get big fights when he and his management want them. And MMA? WTF?
Negotiation Techniques 101 in full effect in an effort to get Wanderlei Silva to sign with the UFC…
I agree Ivan. Saying Wanderlei doesn’t want to fight Chuck? I think the truth might be closer to “Doesn’t want to fight Chuck for the money offered.” And a deadline this early is needed to make a main event for the 22nd in September? C’mon.
I might be in the minority on this one, but I still believe the fight is going to get done
Glad someone said “Wandy doesnt wanna fight Chuck ‘for the money offered’” is more like it.
Jordan, my title was just my usual sense of pessimistic sarcasm. There are great bouts that end in decisions, sure, but does a decision ever end speculation as to who is the better fighter? or do you get a sense of conclusion from a decision? No. Pride just never had many decisions, 1 in 5. Why does the UFC continue to run at 33%. That’s a terrible number, especially when most of them happen during the last five fights of the night.
You could see it at 73. Most of us lucky enough have seen the prelim bouts saw GREAT FIGHTS!! Those guys were all fighting to get on the TV portion. Each fight was awesome. Cue ahead to the PPV, and suddenly the action just stopped, or no one fought to win, except Spider. No wonder the crowd was booing… Yellow cards!!! Or just call the Unified Rules the way they are written.
If no one has ever actually read the UR of MMA, here they are:
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/sacb/docs/martial.html
Is it just me or is Dana White starting to resemble Paul Heyman more as each day passes?
Ivan - I sent you an e-mail a couple of days ago but haven’t gotten a response, yet.
He needs the phone.
And the ball cap.
Silva posted on his website:
“But the best news is that my fight against Chuck would finally happen. This fight is being commented on, here, in U.S.A and there are no excuses anymore. …”
http://www.wanderleisilva.com.br/site_ing/
Mr. Dana White, what do you say now? Who’s lying?
“but does a decision ever end speculation as to who is the better fighter? or do you get a sense of conclusion from a decision? No. ”
- Are you being serious? Do you doubt Sherk is better than Florian and Franca? Did Fedor vs. Cro Cop not clearly show who was the better man? Hey, I’d have valued Alexander a lot higher if he pounded Jardine for three rounds rather than getting a flash KO, and I still have questions about Sokodjou. And what about premature stoppages?
—-
Correira is out of CRC AGAIN, and they’re bringing in Kimo to fight Thompson.
Dana White is such a friggin’ douchebag. The guy is a huckster, pure and simple.
He complains about “sleazy” boxing promoters, yet he’s willing to smear and slander in the press to get his way? No credibility.
Passing the blame and PR wars?
I have to laugh about Dana saying that the reason he hasn’t ran a PRIDE event is because the company ‘is a mess.’ Well, I think that was pretty obvious long before UFC decided to make the asset sale and sink money into the deal with DSE. The deal made little sense and it really hasn’t paid off significantly for them yet.
Kevin Iole is up Dana White’s ass
I agree Ivan. Saying Wanderlei doesn’t want to fight Chuck? I think the truth might be closer to “Doesn’t want to fight Chuck for the money offered.” And a deadline this early is needed to make a main event for the 22nd in September? C’mon.
1) Wanderlei did say he wanted time off after the Henderson bout. He needs it.
2) Pro fighters like to have 8 week camps. Its July 12th today.
Jordan, my title was just my usual sense of pessimistic sarcasm. There are great bouts that end in decisions, sure, but does a decision ever end speculation as to who is the better fighter? or do you get a sense of conclusion from a decision? No. Pride just never had many decisions, 1 in 5. Why does the UFC continue to run at 33%. That’s a terrible number, especially when most of them happen during the last five fights of the night.
Ummm, well, they don’t run freakshow bouts or pro wrestler-real fighter bouts for one. For two, they can’t control how many bouts go to decision because THE FIGHTS ARE REAL. Why do some of you people have a hard time accepting decisions? That’s the most insane talking point I’ve ever heard.
How quickly we forget Sean Gannon vs. Branden Lee Hinkle.
How quickly we forget Sean Gannon vs. Branden Lee Hinkle.
Gannon actually had a fair amount of success fighting in Massachusetts in the days before professional MMA was legal. All bouts in the state were “amateur bouts” and was really closer to a 5-1 fighter than a 1-0. But hey, that talking point is nowhere near as fun.
With that line of reasoning, Houston Alexander should be 200-1 as he claimed. LOL.
The difference is that you can look up Sean Gannon’s record on the FCF database. Maybe you should try that.
When can we expect the drug testing and salary info from this last UFC?
D.Capitated, are you seriously trying to suggest with a straight face that Sean Gannon was brought into the UFC for any reason other than his notoriety from his fight with Kimbo?
The UFC certainly has never run as many freak shows as PRIDE did, but to deny that Gannon was brought in for anything other than as a freak show spectacle is ridiculous.
D.Capitated, are you seriously trying to suggest with a straight face that Sean Gannon was brought into the UFC for any reason other than his notoriety from his fight with Kimbo?
The UFC certainly has never run as many freak shows as PRIDE did, but to deny that Gannon was brought in for anything other than as a freak show spectacle is ridiculous.
He certainly became prominent because of the fight with Kimbo, but to imply that he wasn’t a trained MMA fighter, had no experience, or that location had nothing to do with his inclusion on the card is ridiculous.
Whatever. You can cling to your precious viewpoint that the UFC has never held a freak show ever, but you’d be wrong.
Recent UFC “freakshow” = Shamrock vs Tito 3
Whatever. You can cling to your precious viewpoint that the UFC has never held a freak show ever, but you’d be wrong.
Oh, they’ve had fights that are pretty close to freakshows, I don’t deny that. Hughes/Gracie is the best example of that, and no one’s even mentioned it. Its just that trying to make Hinkle/Kid From King Of The Hill into Giant Silva/Akebono or something is a gross exaggeration.
> Just a thought - is Chuck/Silva going to end up being the American
> equivalent of Sakuraba/Tamura, a dream fight that people will continue to
> talk about forever but will never see the light of day?
Maybe in 5 years they’ll retire, coach for the IFL, and have a sluggish SuperFight.
If Dana White was an actual upstanding businessman, maybe I could believe that Wand just turned down the fight. But unfortunately Dana White has proven time and time again to be an untrustworthy, two-faced, and frankly, scumbag of an MMA promoter.
I would trust Wand’s word any day over Dana’s. A guy like Wand has done so much in his career and is still humble. Dana White was lucky enough to be handed UFC ownership/control by his rich friends (the Fertittas) and still doesnt know the meaning of the word humility.
Mike Chiappetta is my hero. Everyone needs to read the MSNBC article.
Kevin Iole did what he was suppose to do as a journalist. He reported the facts and tried to uncover the truth without interjecting his own opinion and attempting to dissect Dana’s motives.
The hate towards Dana White is just comical. To his pundits, no matter what he does or says one way or another, it’s met with skepticism and whining. The best part is he couldn’t care less what you haters think, which seems to only fuel the haters more.
Dana’s definitely a dick, but I didn’t realize that the Wanderlei thing was a he said / she said.
Let me know when Silva actually goes on the record with any comments.
“Kevin Iole did what he was suppose to do as a journalist. He reported the facts and tried to uncover the truth without interjecting his own opinion and attempting to dissect Dana’s motives.”
I agree. I don’t know of a journalist in this business who if they had Dana White on the other end of the phone with an update on why one of the biggest MMA matches in history won’t be happening wouldn’t report that story.
For every one UFC freak show fight, Pride had about 20 of them. This is the major difference for the difference in decisions.
The IFL on 7/2 got a .4 rating. I can’t even begin to say how bad that is.
Meltzer is saying estimates for the Elite XC / Strikeforce show is getting around 30,000 PPV Buys. And he went into great detail about how the card was unable to attract a larger audience. The people running Strikeforce were expecting a packed house, and they were barely over half filled.
Again, for what it’s worth, the UFC said at the time when Sean Gannon vs. Branden Lee Hinkle was booked that it due to “Gannon’s notoriety from the Internet,” a reference to his taped fight with Kimbo Slice.
Hey Ivan,
Any idea when the MMA Weekly Rankings are going to switch from 160 lbs to 155 lbs? With Pride gone, basically every organization out there uses either 155 lbs or 154 lbs as the Lightweight Limit. It makes no sense to still have a guy like Sakurai ranked there. I’m not sure how much say you have on it, but it would make sense to redo that at this point.
The UFC Homepage has an article up about how Liddell/Silva ain’t happening. Very interesting.
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=603649
UFC Video Game. Not only does it show that Rampage is being used by the UFC to promote the company… But there is also a GIF a few posts down that makes this game look really good.
Old skool UFC had a crapload of freakshow fights.
Of course, that was all part of it’s charm
I’m glad that it’s grown out of that phase though.
i believe that the same thing that happened with shamrock is happening to silva due to the fact that silva is in the MOTL now
45Huddle— Thank you for the question. As more of those fighters compete at 170 or 155, their eligibility will either be at 170 or 155… or they will be inactive for long enough that they’ll be ineligible for that reason. At that point, there will be a clear and fair way to differentiate between the 170-pounders and the 155-pounders among the fighters who used to be in Pride.
“The UFC Homepage has an article up about how Liddell/Silva ain’t happening. Very interesting.”
More negotiation techniques. It’s not Liddell’s fault, he’s just believing what he’s told.
Again, for what it’s worth, the UFC said at the time when Sean Gannon vs. Branden Lee Hinkle was booked that it due to “Gannon’s notoriety from the Internet,” a reference to his taped fight with Kimbo Slice.
No one doubts its effect. If Sean Gannon had only 6 weeks MMA training, however, or if he never had a pro or amateur bout, or if the event was at Mandalay Bay instead of the closest thing to a “hometown” event, he never would have been on the card as filler. Hinkle was picked instead of Arlovski for a reason.
“Meltzer is saying estimates for the Elite XC / Strikeforce show is getting around 30,000 PPV Buys.”
When did he estimate that? In his latest issue he said the K-1 LA show was estimated at having 30,000 PPV buys, and that show had more hype than Strikeforce.
Don’t put words in your sources mouth.
That UFC game trailor is all pre-rendered. I’ll hold judgement till I see some real in game shots.
I just got his last issue yesterday. I will quote it tonight.
The whole freakshow argument is ridiculous. Promoters have to make money so they can pay the Chucks and Quinton’s and Fedor’s and Mirko’s of the world. Don’t hold it against them until they start pitting Zach Arnold against Josh Gross - that’s when you know you’re getting milked.
Now that I have articles published at CBS Sportsline and Fox Sports, my asking price has gone up considerably.
The whole freakshow argument is ridiculous. Promoters have to make money so they can pay the Chucks and Quinton’s and Fedor’s and Mirko’s of the world. Don’t hold it against them until they start pitting Zach Arnold against Josh Gross - that’s when you know you’re getting milked.
Call it a hunch, but I think the Chuck’s and Randy’s draw well on their own.
You’re missing the point. If an audience wants to watch Wagner de Concesiasfosidfgz take on my mom, they’ll pay to do it. They’ll also pay to see Chuck take on Randy. By your logic, is there something wrong with paying to watch pro wrestling? Whatever sancrosanct veil you perceive the sport to possess…I don’t see. Freakshow fights might be abominable, but that’s entirely the point.
I’d corner for you, Zach. But I’d want 10 percent.
You’re missing the point. If an audience wants to watch Wagner de Concesiasfosidfgz take on my mom, they’ll pay to do it. They’ll also pay to see Chuck take on Randy. By your logic, is there something wrong with paying to watch pro wrestling?
Are we talking about pro wrestling or MMA? Because they are very different things. Oh, there’s connections historically and what not, but trying to say that its okay to run freakshow bouts at this stage in MMA’s development because SEG ran ads in the Apter mags or because Ogawa/Coleman is a work meant to set up a pro wrestling match is dishonest, almost to a obscene level. The UFC has nowhere near as many freakshows as K-1 (who adore them as part of their business strategy) or as many as PRIDE did. That’s them responding to the market in the US. If they ran them on a regular basis, they would have no shot whatsoever at getting legitimate sporting coverage, which its clear that they’re after and is the key for further penetration into the minds and hearts of viewers. For the UFC to run a Kimbo Slice/Tank Abbott or Wes Sims bout (instead of CFFC) right now would be commercial suicide.
[i]Are we talking about pro wrestling or MMA? Because they are very different things. Oh, there’s connections historically and what not, but trying to say that its okay to run freakshow bouts at this stage in MMA’s development because SEG ran ads in the Apter mags or because Ogawa/Coleman is a work meant to set up a pro wrestling match is dishonest, almost to a obscene level. The UFC has nowhere near as many freakshows as K-1 (who adore them as part of their business strategy) or as many as PRIDE did. That’s them responding to the market in the US.[/i]
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. My first post was meant to be analogous, and not at all meant to be taken literally. My second post, the point of which has largely escaped you, was meant to clarify my first post.
People get down on PRIDE because of the freakshow fights. These people are what we call Americans, the most fanatic of whom are rather accustomed to the UFC, which plays host to very few freakshow fights, because its audience does not demand or like to watch such bouts.
The Japanese mixed martial arts organizations have, on occasion, employed the services of freakshows in order to entertain their audiences and bring in revenue, which is necessary to pay fighters like Fedor to fight other fighters like Mirko to fight one another. Is there anything wrong with this? As far as the Japanese audience is concerned, it’s a twoferone: they get to watch some fucked up dudes “fight” and some really great dudes [i]fight[/i]. When Americans criticize the Japanese sensibilities because it in some way impinges upon the purity of the sport, they are failing to recognize that the Japanese are simply paying to see what they want. This is not hard to understand.
Kimbo and Tank will probably not happen in the UFC, because the UFC’s audience has not demanded it. They have demanded Chuck and Tito and miscellaneous shots of Ms. Jameson’s gruesome, overworked cleaveage. But that is not to say that the audiences of Cage Rage, Strikeforce, Pro Elite or any local shows would not demand the fight.
I am NOT saying it’s okay to run freakshow bouts in MMA because of its association with professional wrestling. I am saying it is okay to run freakshow bouts in MMA when the demand for the bout is there, just as it is in professional wrestling. Both MMA and pro wrestling are forms of entertainment. If fans demand a bout, it will happen, because fans are the reason these institutions exist. There is nothing wrong, or hypocritical with this scenario. What the objective observer can do, is encourage good MMA and discourage bad MMA, even if it is good entertainment. But ultimately, promoters are responding to the demands of their audiences when they hold freakshow bouts, and that is in no way harmful to the sport - especially when Chuck and Wanderei are fighting on the same card.
I am NOT saying it’s okay to run freakshow bouts in MMA because of its association with professional wrestling. I am saying it is okay to run freakshow bouts in MMA when the demand for the bout is there, just as it is in professional wrestling. Both MMA and pro wrestling are forms of entertainment. If fans demand a bout, it will happen, because fans are the reason these institutions exist.
You’re equating pro wrestling and MMA, however. Pro wrestling builds matches that it wants to happen by booking storylines and the finishes of matches to get the outcome they desire. MMA does not do this. They certainly do “hype” for events that may be prewritten, but the bouts themselves are not. They are why the fans watch, not because they want to see Chuck Liddell ride on a zamboni to the octagon, or in the hopes that Brandon Vera will do a run in and break the proverbial glass ceiling. Saying that the market will decide such factors is ridiculous. The market can decide certain facets, but in the end, unlike Japan, combat sports in this country are privy to the approval/disapproval of state atheltic commissions, both for amateur and professional fights. And it is for that reason that you will almost certainly never see fights like a Fedor/Zulu be approved under any circumstances.
It is both the close relationship with pro wrestling and the general attitude taken towards pro wrestling culturally that made so many of the bouts in PRIDE and K-1 possible. The UFC does not have either and likely never will. They are cognizant of their place, and I find it very unlikely that they’re about to test any athletic commission with their matchmaking in a desperate attempt to make a few bucks with a strategy they’ve not yet really bothered to employ.
It should be conditionally noted that this is only true in a seriously regulated state and not Oklahoma, Tennessee, etc. where paying the licensing fee is the only ‘real’ regulation going on.
It should be conditionally noted that this is only true in a seriously regulated state and not Oklahoma, Tennessee, etc. where paying the licensing fee is the only ‘real’ regulation going on.
The ability to make money and recieve media exposure also happens to dive straight into the ground going to places like that. Tyson/Lewis was a success in spite of its location in Memphis, but that could have sold 15,000 tickets in Greenland if they held it there, and it was hardly a “freakshow attraction”. I don’t see any such fight existing now or on the horizon that would do that kind of draw or those sort of numbers, short of Bruce Lee coming back from the dead with a 3rd degree Gracie black belt and a ADCC unlimited weight class win.
It used to be so funny to see people on sherdog go crazy after some of the Pride Booking. People would be so mad at Pride for bringing shame on the sport etc. It didnt matter what the Japanese fans wanted to see, putting bums on seats and getting huge ratings was not good enough.
Buentello/Tank?
Cesar/Frank?
Tito/Ken?
The aforementioned Gannon/Lee?
Johnny Morton?
Wasn’t there some football player dude that had a stroke or some shit?
Innumerable smaller shows?
Fedor/Zulu might have not gotten approved. Might not have. But only because it was so high-profile. You do recall the torrent of bullshitting and posturing on the part of Armando Garcia that followed Cesar Gracie’s forgettable loss to Mr. Frank Shamrock, right?
And if you don’t think the market decided whether or not Tito would fight Ken 18 times, you’re out of your mind.
Buentello/Tank?
Tank did beat Cabbage Corriera.
Cesar/Frank?
Frank was inactive for the better part of a decade.
Tito/Ken?
Why would any of them have not been approved? The best argument would be against the third fight, but certainly not the first fight.
The aforementioned Gannon/Lee?
Gannon’s amateur experience.
Johnny Morton?
Maybe if he was fighting the 7 foot korean. Instead, he fought Bernard Ackah under exhibition rules.
Wasn’t there some football player dude that had a stroke or some shit?
???
Innumerable smaller shows?
Which ones? The ones running outside major commission states or in indian reservations? I’m sure the UFC would love to go to Soboba. Real step up for them.
Fedor/Zulu might have not gotten approved. Might not have. But only because it was so high-profile. You do recall the torrent of bullshitting and posturing on the part of Armando Garcia that followed Cesar Gracie’s forgettable loss to Mr. Frank Shamrock, right?
It would high profile because its the world champion against a guy with no verifiable record. A guy who’s 1-0 but really good beating a buy down who’s 0-2 but isn’t that well trained is not exactly what we’re talking about.
And if you don’t think the market decided whether or not Tito would fight Ken 18 times, you’re out of your mind.
The UFC were the ones who decided to do the rematch and put it on TUF. Before then, who was calling for the fight other than Tito back at a PPV that almost no one saw in comparison? The 3rd fight was only done because the second fight was a huge draw and ended in disappointing and dissatisfying fashion to everyone watching. But hey, its really because he thought Takayama/Frye was entertaining. Oh, and PRO WRESTLING.
Now you’re just being obstinate for the sake of being obstinate. I don’t mind debate, but this is turning into a pissing contest, and I’m out of Mountain Dew. I clearly am not going to convince you of the entertainment aspect of MMA, or of the paralells between Pro Wrestling and MMA. You have done well, Internet Warrior.
Thanks, boss. I think everyone gets the entertainment aspect of MMA. It seems, however, that people coming from a pro wrestling background clearly ignore the sport aspect of it too: “Why do they have so many decisions?,” “They should just get rid of the Unified Rules,” etc.
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