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UFC 137 (10/29 Las Vegas): BJ Penn, Mirko Cro Cop retire after losses

By Zach Arnold | October 29, 2011

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Location: 10/29 Mandalay Bay Events Center in Las Vegas, Nevada

Dark matches

Main card

UFC 137 takeaways

BJ Penn didn’t take his conditioning seriously enough against Nick Diaz and paid the price. He finishes his career out with a great battle but once again got tired. I didn’t expect him to get tired the way he did… but it happened. By the third round, Diaz was able to take the advantage and it was over at that point. If the fight had been five rounds, I didn’t think Penn stood much of a chance. Three rounds? I thought it would be short enough for the conditioning issues not to pop up. I was wrong.

Mirko Cro Cop’s retirement hurts the UFC Japan show. Yes, UFC got a sold show deal with Dentsu, the second-largest Japanese ad agency. So, their risk in running the vanity show in Japan is limited. With that said, Dentsu reportedly wanted to run a PRIDE nostalgia show and that ain’t going to happen if you can’t have Nogueira or Cro Cop on the card. Mirko said that if he had beaten Roy Nelson that ‘back home’ his supporters would have said he beat up a fat guy. Well, he lost to that fat guy on Saturday night. I still felt that Roy as a 75% favorite was too high, but that doesn’t mean that I didn’t think he was going to lose at any point.

Tyson Griffin’s career is in crisis. Griffin started out as a -280 favorite against Bart Palaszewski and it swelled up to -320 because Griffin became a parlay play. If you had paired him with Donald Cerrone (-240) and BJ Penn (when he was -115), the parlay was paying out +260 odds. I was very nervous about Tyson in this fight because of what I saw in his showing against Takanori Gomi last year. That Gomi fight, for one reason or another, altered Tyson’s career path. He does not fight smart and he’s getting into these stand-up firefights that take the one strength of his opponents and magnify them. Of all the +300 guys on the card, Bart was the one I had the most confidence in. Very excited to see his hands fly like they did.

Donald Cerrone is ripping through the UFC competition. I love it. Not only does he win, he does it with style and takes no prisoners. He’s gotten better each time he fights. He finished Dennis Siver so fast, Spike TV had time to show Brandon Vera’s three round fight. Speaking of…

What the hell happened to Brandon Vera? He looks so damn average out there as a fighter now. It’s unbelievable. Eliot Marshall tagged him and had him in big trouble. I remember Vera when he was touted as the next big thing and now… he looks like just another fighter. What went wrong?

Hatsu Hioki barely broke the Japanese curse. I said the -320 line on him as favorite over George Roop was ridiculous and rightfully so. Roop may be inconsistent but the guy’s got some talent and Hioki’s going to find out that the level of competition in Japan in 2011 is so much lower in strength than what the UFC battlefield has in store for him. He escaped with a win here but I wouldn’t be very comforted if I was him.

When Cheick Kongo fights smart, he’s pretty damn good. That’s the key to every Kongo fight. Are you going to get the stupid crazy Kongo that you saw in the Pat Barry fight or are you going to get the superior Kongo like we saw against Matt Mitrione? I thought the odds were very low on the ‘books for Kongo. He was an underdog! This is the same guy who gave Cain Velasquez some trouble. At least Matt didn’t get knocked out but it was not a good fight on paper for him and we saw why tonight.

Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, UK, Zach Arnold | 81 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

81 Responses to “UFC 137 (10/29 Las Vegas): BJ Penn, Mirko Cro Cop retire after losses”

  1. liger05 says:

    Card for England sux

  2. 45 Huddle says:

    UFC 137’s PPV and SpikeTV cards are fantastic. One of the best cards of the year.

    UFC 138 is blah….

  3. Chuck says:

    Is there a non-insane reason why Cro Cop/Nelson is a main card fight and Siver/Cerrone is a prelim fight? Nelson/Cro Cop would have been great even a year and a half ago. Now? No.

    Hell, the Cerrone/Siver winner should be at least third in line for a lightweight title shot. Both Cro Cop and Nelson are on two-fight losing streaks. Loser should be cut.

    • edub says:

      Cerrone-Siver winner should be third in line for a title shot? You’re serious?

      • Chuck says:

        At the very least. Maybe fourth. Both guys are up there for the UFC lightweight title picture. I’m not saying either one can beat Frankie Edgar or Gray Maynard or whatever, but both guys are on winning streaks and beating decent fighters (especially Cerrone). I think it is reasonable to say the winner should be third or fourth in line for a title shot, or at the very least, a number one contender’s fight.

        • Jason Harris says:

          I half agree. Cerrone could get there in a few fights, but if Siver pulls out the W he’ll have a longer path. Cerrone is marketable and a former champion in WEC, he’s not far out of conetention. Siver hasn’t beaten enough noteworthy guys.

        • edub says:

          To me, Siver’s stock to a bit of a hit when Sotiropolous was starched by Dos Anjos in less than a minute. Considering George was Dennis’s best win.

          I would put Guida, Henderson, Pettis, and Lauzon ahead of both. And since all of those guys are fighting each other (Lauzon-Pettis is a probably after the back and forth IMO) they kind of have the inside track.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          Why are people arguing about who is fourth in line for a title shot? That guy isn’t getting one for 2 or more fights, at least until they beat someone tangible. Cerrone beating Siver was his best win by far, but the guy really only has one meaningful win at present. He’s a long ways still from serious title contention.

    • Steve4192 says:

      “Is there a non-insane reason why Cro Cop/Nelson is a main card fight and Siver/Cerrone is a prelim fight?”

      Because, whether we like it or not, casual fans don’t give a shit about lightweights. A run-of-the-mill HW slobberknocker holds more appeal to them than a match up of top-notch LWs.

      • Jason Harris says:

        Plus Cerrone/Siver is going to be on the Spike prelims, and since that fight will be an awesome war it’ll likely help them convert some PPV buys.

    • fd2 says:

      I think literally every ppv has somebody asking “Why is [X great fight] main-eventing the prelims while [Y theoretically worse fight] is on the main card!?!?!” The answer is the same as it’s always been – the UFC tries to put a high-profile, likely-to-be-exciting match as the main event of the prelims to get people to buy the PPV. More people see the prelims than the ppv. Sponsors pay more for the prelims than the ppv. IT’s not a “step down”, and people who view it as such need to get over it.

  4. John says:

    Tim Credeur was removed from the card of UFC 137 due to injury. Brad Tavares will now fight Dustin Jacoby.

  5. Aunt Jemima says:

    The British card is what it is while 137 has 7 fantastic fights and the things fall through the floorwith a bunch of double A domestic scrub talent flayling away KOTC style.Iwould love to see them reach down to Brazil where they have really been out-recruited by Bellator lately and really solidify these undercards with some guys with real skills.

  6. LDM says:

    Actually the Alabama/LSU game is now on CBS in primetime so the UFC just lost a ton of buys.

  7. RST says:

    I cant figure out any way from Tuesday that Big Country doesn’t RULE!

  8. 45 Huddle says:

    I had it 29-28 for Hioki, but the 1st round could have gone either way. Round 2 and 3 were easy to judge.

    Hioki looked like a Bantamweight out there. He needs to make the weight cut.

    Either way, no matter how you judged that fight, the Hioki hype is over with. And so is any JMMA hype. The 3 best Featherweights who came over from Japan were Hioki, Sandro, & Omigawa. All 3 looked mediocre by US MMA standards.

    • EJ says:

      I would love to rail about the Hioki decision but after seeing Bellator job out Jay Hieron against their golden boy he’ll have to wait.

      Man did I call it or what?, I’ve been telling people that Askren is probably the most overated outside of the UFC in a long time. Hieron exposed him and didn’t even fight a great fight imo, he gave away 2 rounds and still won the fight. I can’t even begin to imagine who Bjorn is going to try and spin this bs because if Jay isn’t given an automatic rematch Bellator might as well be TNA.

      • Chuck says:

        Askren/Hieron was very close. I had it 48-47 Hieron, but it could have gone either way. Pretty much depended on how you scored the fourth round.

        Askren showed he needs to improve on his stand-up ASAP! Thiago Santos looked awesome though. He should be able to beat Eric Prindle. Sucks that Blagoi Ivanov got booted out of the tournament for whatever injury.

      • fd2 says:

        Before Hieron gets a rematch with Askren he should be giving a rematch to Weedman and Hawn, because he lost both those fights.

        • EJ says:

          No he didn’t, but i’m sure it’s all irrelevant because Bjorn will go out of his way to protect his golden boy after that gift. Seriously I know bad judging happens all the time but it’s even worse in Bellator, i’m still shaking my head from the gifts that Warren got in his fights.

        • 45 Huddle says:

          Hieron now needs to win 3 more fights in 3 months to get a title shot again. Talk about burning out a veteran with that schedule.

        • EJ says:

          If i’m Hieron I say screw it and go to a smaller show and pick up a couple of wins then beg Zuffa for a job at either the UFC or SF. This tournament farse that Bjorn keeps dishing out is a joke, considering all the shady decisions that his golden boys get you have to basically finish the champs to beat them.

        • Steve4192 says:

          My biggest gripe with Bellator decisions is that they run so many shows without third-party oversight. Most of their events are non-sanctioned shows held at reservation casinos. It’s one thing to see a shitty decision rendered by a clueless government worker, but seeing it from judges who are on the casino or promoters payroll just adds to the shadiness.

      • 45 Huddle says:

        Too many questionable decisions in Bellator.

        Askren looked very beatable tonight.

        • edub says:

          Hieron can’t bitch. I thought it was close enough to go either way, but he should have gotten the decision. However, I also thought he should have lost to both Weedman and Hawn (and so did most others).

  9. david m says:

    I’ve been saying for a long time that Diaz will fuck up GSP, and I am more convinced than ever. No longer can people argue that Diaz is facing inferior competition. Nobody has ever done that to BJ. GSP has about 1/8th of BJ’s chin/heart, and I don’t see any way he can fight Nick for 25 minutes and not end up curled up in the fetal position tapping out like he did against Matt Serra.

    • Light23 says:

      I bet hard on Penn, and thought that he was going to smoke him after that 1st round. Diaz has sick combos/power though.

      GSP definitely can’t stand with Diaz, although he might be able to control the distance and use his jab much better than BJ. If Diaz can defend at least 50% of takedowns, he should give GSP a very tough fight over 5 rounds.

      • EJ says:

        I was going into a huge BJ rant but then I realise that it was my fault for picking a guy who’s probably the biggest disapointment in mma history.

        I should have known that even thought BJ had all the advantages in the fight he’s his own worst enemy and should have retired after getting a gift draw against Fitch.

        The only thing worse than another BJ flop is having to deal with the hypetrain that is going to go into megadrive now with Diaz. Talk about a bunch of unbearable people i’d rather deal with the delusional Fedor fans that the 209 internet fanboys.

        • Steve4192 says:

          I think it is kind of silly to call a two-division champion ‘biggest disapointment in mma history’.

          BJ might not have lived up to his potential, but he also was a victim of ridiculous expectations. It is unrealistic to expect a guy to be dominant forever. BJ reached the mountaintop in two separate divisions. He stayed there for a while in one of those divisions. He’s widely considered #1 or #2 all-time in the LW division (depending on where you rank Gomi). If that makes him ‘biggest disapointment in mma history’, then what does that make the other 99% of MMA fighters?

          Not every fighter is cut out to be Anderson Silva and plug away year after year. BJ has always been mercurial and looking for new challenges. The idea of hanging around in one weight class and doing the same thing over and over was anathema to him. A big part of BJ’s legend was his willingness to take stupid fights against guys who were way too big for him. His greatest moment came when he won one of those fights (Hughes 1). If BJ had just stayed in the LW division, his career would not have been nearly as interesting.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          Frankie Edgar has nearly as strong a resume as does BJ Penn at 155 now. He’s beaten the clear #1 contender in the world and he also has two wins over Penn himself, as well as Sherk and an array of journeymen/gatekeeper guys.

  10. Alan Conceicao says:

    BJ’s stock has gone from sky high following the win over Diego Sanchez to straight in the dumpster. One win in two years against a shot fighter and a bunch of high profile defeats to guys he should have beaten on paper; these are not things an “all time great” should have on their resume. 20 years from now, people will ask what the big deal was about this guy if they wonder about him at all.

    Nick Diaz, meanwhile solidifies himself as the best possible contestant for a GSP fight by beating the guy Jon Fitch couldn’t and doing so fairly conclusively. Naturally, this means that Carlos Condit, a guy who has beaten all of one top ten opponent ever in the UFC and WEC combined, will get the next title shot.

    Cro-Cop has been washed up for years. Brandon Vera hasn’t recovered from the layoff at his peak when he decided not to chase big money and instead became a “company guy” (LOL). Matt Mitrione isn’t actually all that good. Amazing that people paid money to see these realities spelled out for them once again.

    • EJ says:

      And this is exactly the type of stuff i’m talking about, BJ got a gift draw against Fitch and was about ready to announce his retirement after that fight. Tonight if that was Condit in there he would have gotten stopped not just lost a decision. Diaz didn’t do anything to prove he’s more of a threat to GSP than he did before the fight, he’s still the same guy beating this BJ doesn’t change that.

      • Alan Conceicao says:

        Except that Carlos Condit hasn’t proven anything yet. At least Diaz beat a name. Condit’s never even done that except against Dan Hardy. He’s also managed to get taken down by damn near everyone he’s ever fought because his wrestling sucks, and he has no name appeal. It is a stupid fight to make now because you can’t even make the argument any more than Diaz hasn’t fought in front of the UFC audience in front of a UFC name opponent.

        • Joe says:

          You could have said the same thing about Diaz before the Penn fight. Diaz beat Daley, Zaromskis, Noons, Cyborg. Condit beat Kim, Ellenberger, MacDonald. Neither guy had to face Fitch or Koscheck.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          No one is anyone until they beat someone. Diaz beat someone. Condit’s rating as a welterweight is astonishingly inflated and has nothing to do with his actual success in the ring.

        • edub says:

          So if beating a “name” is all that counts then Matt Hughes was still a great win for BJ 2 fights ago.

          Diaz is going to get the shot because he ran his mouth. Condit’s resume over the last 5 fights still trumps Diaz’s, no question.

          And if Condit’s wrestling sucks, then Diaz’s is just deplorable.

        • edub says:

          And your logic is just insane here: Condit has actually beaten credible contenders back to back to back (Ellenberger, Hardy, Macdonald, Kim). Diaz beat Daley, Noons, Cyborg, and now Penn. His best win was over a guy who got a gift from getting out of the third round while getting pounded on against Jon Fitch. Let alone a draw.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          For BJ it was certainly a great win, shot or not. Its something that actually mattered to the fans, who bought that PPV in greater numbers than they likely did this one. Condit’s resume over the last 5 fights doesn’t compare. It doesn’t come close. He lost in that time frame.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          Daley is less credible than Dan Hardy or MacDonald? On what planet? Ellenberger was an irrelevant “win” (I scored it for Ellenberger) until Ellenberger himself beat a guy that has a win over Condit.

        • edub says:

          Who gives a shit if he lost, he fought higher ranked credible contenders, and the only won he lost could just as easily gone to him. Condit’s worst win in that frame was Hardy, and that was right after he fought for a title. Diaz’s best win was over a guy who retired right after the fight.

          If the argument is who is the most marketable fight it’s Diaz no question. If the argument is who is more “deserving” of a title shot its Condit. His wins and strength of competition over the past 2 years trumps Diaz.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          He didn’t fight higher ranked/more credible fighters. That’s the whole problem. He beat a bunch of guys who were unranked or barely ranked, got in wars with them, barely came out the winner, and they’ve gone on to have success since. I’d rank Ellenberger above Condit without even thinking about it. A) I think be beat Condit and the decision was garbage B) Ellenberger rebounded from that loss with a better win than Condit has over anybody.

          Condit beat no one who was ranked when he fought them except Hardy, and he’s not as good as Daley. On top of that, Diaz has a win over BJ Penn, a universal top 5 pick in the WW division. Condit has never beaten a guy who was ranked in the top 5 of the division. Period.

        • edub says:

          -Ellenberger didn’t beat Condit. He had a great first round, then lost the last two getting pounded on emphatically to end the third, while mounted. You are in the minority if you think Ellenberger won that fight.

          -Dan Hardy was ranked higher or as high as anybody on Diaz’s list (unless you rank BJ highly because of his gift of a draw against Jon Fitch or his win over Matt Hughes, the same Hughes that everybody with any sense would count as over the hill). DHK was just as high as Paul Daley was, and in some places higher. Ellenberger, Macdonald, and Kampman are far and away better fighters ranked wise (or skill wise) than KJ Noons, Marius Zaromskis, and Cyborg at the time of their fights. Now Macdonald and Ellenberger are two of the best contenders in the WW division.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          If the majority is rewriting the second round of that fight as a dominant Condit round, then they’re wrong or didn’t watch it. And as it is – Ellenberger still has a win over a top 5 guy. Condit doesn’t.

          Whether or not Hardy was ranked as high as Daley or roughly equivalent is secondary. Diaz beat a top 5 guy this past Saturday night. Daley is just the second best guy. Condit has never beaten a guy who was in the top 5 when he faced him. The only fighter he faced that was close to relevance was Hardy. Aside from that, every ranked fighter he’s faced beat him. Continuing to tout the MacDonald win when the guy has yet to still do anything is completely ridiculous. Beating a bunch of gatekeepers and journeymen is not the same as beating an elite fighter. BJ Penn was an elite fighter entering that ring.

        • edub says:

          “Whether or not Hardy was ranked as high as Daley or roughly equivalent is secondary.”

          No. Hardy was ranked as high as #4 in the world at the time. Daley has never been close to that high. Condit’s win over Hardy was more in line with Diaz’s over Penn then his win over Daley.

          “And as it is – Ellenberger still has a win over a top 5 guy. Condit doesn’t.”

          And as it is – Condit still has a win over Ellenberger, and hasn’t lost since they fought.

          “If the majority is rewriting the second round of that fight as a dominant Condit round, then they’re wrong or didn’t watch it.”

          I wouldn’t know if the majority is writing off the second as dominant or not. However, most would “write it off” as a close round for Condit. And they would be correct to do so.

          “Diaz beat a top 5 guy this past Saturday night.”

          BJ Penn was not a universally ranked top 5 fighter when Diaz faced him. He was all the way at #9 in Sherdog’s rankings before the fight, and I’m sure he was below top 5 else where too.

          “Aside from that, every ranked fighter he’s faced beat him.”

          Wrong. DHK was in the top ten when he crushed him in the first round. And if we’re going to get really technical Trigg was too when Carlos submitted him.

          “Continuing to tout the MacDonald win when the guy has yet to still do anything is completely ridiculous.”

          Touting? Who’s touting? I said that him and Ellenberger are a level above Cyborg, Zaromskis, and Noons. Tell me you’re not going to try and argue that.

          Furthermore, Ellenberger and Macdonald are far from Journeymen or garekeepers. And BJ isn’t an elite fighter anymore. Not everybody thought he was one before he walked into the cage Saturday night (with good reason).

      • Zheroen says:

        Condit woulda, coulda, shoulda finished BJ Penn…based on what, exactly?

    • Deck says:

      Being a “company guy” didn’t prevent Brandon Vera from “chasing money”, a legally binding contract did. His management gave him onerous career advice; the very same management that sacrificed 18 months of KJ Noons’ MMA career so that he could get beat up by James Countryman in a 6 rounder for less than 3000 dollars.

      • Alan Conceicao says:

        He had one fight left with the UFC. If he doesn’t resign, he probably doesn’t end up in a feature bout with Tim Sylvia in 2007. Instead?

        • Steve4192 says:

          Who was he going to sign with?

          PRIDE was already in the crapper, Strikeforce was busy putting on main events like Tank-Buentello, the IFL had a salary cap, and the only guy who made real money in EliteXC was Kimbo Slice.

          Vera had the misfortune of awful timing. His greatest leverage as a commodity came during one of the worst sellers markets in MMA history.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          EXC. There was a fat contract waiting for him there.

        • Deck says:

          Who is to say that last fight wouldn’t have been with Sylvia or Werdum (who were both bad match-ups for him); it isn’t as if UFC doesn’t have a proclivity to give a fighter adverse fights on the way out. It is a moot point since his management didn’t want him to take the final fight and choose to sit him, the same thing they did with KJ Noons when he had EXC contracted bouts left and decided it was high time to “renegotiate” his contract. Also, LOL the illusory fat contract that EXC had waiting for him guaranteeing untold millions, IIRC there were only 2 EliteXC contracts that paid higher than the one he was gifted for resigning with the UFC. I suppose he could have taken a portion of his contract in locked-in stock compensation – ask Frank Shamrock how that turned out. Or, for that matter, if were discussing theoretical contracts that don’t exist, you could also ask Frank about that fat “multimillion” World Fighter contract that was “just waiting for him” too.

    • Deck says:

      Also, the ideation of placing an exact time that Brandon Vera “lost it” is the ultimate MMA false dilemma. If you want to know why Brandon Vera looks slow and unskilled, it’s because the LHW talent pool is exponentially better than Heavyweight along with the skill set that accompanies it. Beating up Justin Eilers & Fat Frank Mir is, as general a rule, easier than fighting mid-level Light Heavyweights.

      • Steve4192 says:


        Vera looks terrible because he is no longer beating up on terrible fighters.

        The UFC HW division was pathetic when Vera was making his big splash. The biggest win of his career came against a 2006 model Frank Mir that was struggling something awful after returning from injury. The same Mir who got his shit pushed in by Marcio Cruz and barely eked out a decision against Dan Christison.

    • Light23 says:

      The “big deal” was that he won five championships, one of them above his weight, where he regularly fought. There’s not a big list of guys who have won more title fights than Penn.

      • Alan Conceicao says:

        He didn’t win five championships. He won the welterweight title once and the lightweight title once. The ROTR belt was created by his brother and was never a legitimate world championship. He’s a guy defined by the fights he didn’t win as much as the ones he did: Uno, Hughes II, GSP twice, Fitch, Edgar, and now Nick Diaz.

        • Light23 says:

          So if the Green Bay Packers win the Superbowl again in Feb, since they’re the current champions I guess it doesn’t really count, right? They’ll be three time Superbowl champions with two defenses (one in 68, one in 2012)? No, they’ll be considered five time champions.

          Each time you win a championship game/match/fight, you win a championship to go with it. That’s the way it goes in every other sport, so I don’t see why MMA/boxing should be any different.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          Defending a world title in boxing or MMA is different than being the champion of a season in professional football. Unless you think Bernard Hopkins is a 27 time world champion or whatever.

        • Chuck says:


          How is BJ Penn a five time champ? He won the UFC lightweight title once, and the UFC welterweight title once. And the Rumble On The Rock lightweight title once (and as Alan said, that belt meant nothing at the time).

          Your comparison with the Packers makes no sense because defending a title in a combat sport is different than winning a season-ending title game (like the Super Bowl, World Series, NBA Finals, whatever). It’s apples and oranges.

          And calling the Packers “current champs” makes no sense because that entails that they have to defend that “title” every so often. So I guess the San Francisco Giants lost their “title” a while ago then. Again, it’s apples and oranges comparing a stick and/or ball team sport with an individual combat sport.

          “Each time you win a championship game/match/fight, you win a championship to go with it. That’s the way it goes in every other sport, so I don’t see why MMA/boxing should be any different.”

          That is 100% wrong on every level. When you defend a title you already have you don’t win a title. And obviously I outlined why it is very much different with combat sports. So is Randy Couture an eleven (or so) time UFC champ? No, he is a five time champ (three times at heavyweight, twice at light heavyweight).

        • edub says:

          People will look back on him as a great fighter. He battled against the best of his generation and won some and lost some. The wins on his resume include Diego Sanchez, Kenny Florian, Matt Hughes, Takanori Gomi, Renzo Gracie, and Matt Serra among others. He had wars with GSP, Lyoto Machida, Nick Diaz, and Jon Fitch.

          He will be looked at as one of the top guys at 155 and 170 over the first 10-20 years of MMA, but not the best in either.

        • edub says:

          Also, there is no set of guided rules on saying whether a 5 time champ means he won it 5 times sperately or just defended it 5 times. Ask 10 writers and you’ll probably get different definitions from each (because you could really define it as either).

          All I know is ROTR was never a real title. The same way the “Saku” belt was never a real title.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          Any writer that argues Anderson Silva is a 11 time champion or whatever is a retard and can’t be taken seriously. Who says those things? The UFC did as promotional speak back in the pre-TUF days to trump up the accomplishments of Matt Hughes but they don’t even do that anymore.

          BJ’s a seminal figure in this short time frame of the sport, but 20-30-40 years from now his importance will diminish by some degree. He simply wasn’t dominating for any great period of time, which separates him from guys who the historical record are going to pay attention to more: GSP, Anderson Silva, Fedor, Tito Ortiz, Wanderlei Silva. That probably hurts some people to hear, but its been the case since the Edgar loss. I remember Snowden saying that and people getting all huffy, but its the truth. When you really look at his record and accomplishments more, you realize that so much of why it was supposedly great is because everyone wanted to believe it was. BJ won a single linear title and was granted the #1 lightweight position in spite of barely competing there and winning his title against a guy who was barely a top ten fighter at the time because people just wanted to believe that BJ Penn was the best P4P fighter in the world regardless of actual success.

        • Light23 says:

          To argue that you can’t use that style of terminology is pretty dumb, especially when it (imo) much better represents fighter’s accomplishments. Using standard terminology, a guy can only win more championships if he first loses, which is really strange. E.g. Randy Couture is only considered a 5x champ, because he lost via cut to Vitor.

          If UFC title defenses were dodgy squash matches, then it’d be silly, but they’re not. They’re the two best available fighters competing. Makes sense to give the winner the respect they deserve, especially when it takes 12 weeks of training to even get to the fight.

          As far as going through a “season” – in golf they don’t go through a season to win a championship – they just play golf over four days. Besides, a fighter trains for 8-12 weeks leading up to the fight, with the fight being the culmination of all that work.

          I understand that it’ll never catch on, but I don’t really care.

        • edub says:

          It’s debatable on how he’ll look compared to Fedor, Tito, or Wanderlei (I’ll throw Hughes in there too). All dominated in a time period that will go down as the “golden era”, but will also be looked at as a precursor to a much more competitive sport just a few years later. BJ won titles in both eras, and did it in two weight classes. He also has the UFC hype machine behind him still calling him the greatest LW of all time, just like they still call Liddell the greatest LHW of all time.

          “Who says those things?”

          Boxing promoters, writers in boxing, I’m sure a few MMA writers too. The only industry I have seen that only goes by how many times they won a championship the first time is professional wrestling.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          To argue that you can’t use that style of terminology is pretty dumb, especially when it (imo) much better represents fighter’s accomplishments.

          Your opinion of an accepted practice is irrelevant. I can call blue red if I want.

          If UFC title defenses were dodgy squash matches, then it’d be silly, but they’re not. They’re the two best available fighters competing. Makes sense to give the winner the respect they deserve, especially when it takes 12 weeks of training to even get to the fight.

          They’re title defenses. That means the champion entering the fight is clear. They also, unlike championship games in other sports, have the possibility of no contests and draws. I can think of two draws right away in UFC world title contests. That’s one of the reasons why it isn’t accepted to call each defense the winning of a championship.


          BJ won titles in both eras, and did it in two weight classes. He also has the UFC hype machine behind him still calling him the greatest LW of all time, just like they still call Liddell the greatest LHW of all time.

          If BJ is retired, they will start calling Edgar that should he make another title defense. Unquestionably they’ll call him the most dominant LW of all time too. I think he’ll probably get the nod above Hughes because of his two wins over Matt and success in multiple weight classes, which Hughes didn’t do. But the contest historically will be close and will favor Hughes more over the years.

        • edub says:

          I doubt BJ stays retired. Maybe he does maybe he doesn’t. However, I doubt Zuffa calls Edgar the greatest LW of all time until he wins 3 or 4 more matches. Even if he does Dana will still call him a FW.

        • Chuck says:

          “I understand that it’ll never catch on, but I don’t really care.”

          Okay, I understand that you want to give these fighters a ton of praise and credit. Trust me, so do I. But calling BJ Penn a former 5 time champ, or Randy Couture an eleven or so time champ, Anderson Silva a ten time champ, whatever is extremely misleading. It’s totally a promoter-thing to do really. Going by that logic then Roy Jones Jr. has to most amount of title reigns of any fighter in the last twenty or so years, because of all the belts he had (he had, like, twelve light heavyweight belts at the same time) and all the title defenses while having all those belts.

          Or a non-sport comparison. Spawn would be the single most successful comic book of the nineties because each of the earlier issues had a circulation of, like, over a million each. The upcoming Lego Ninjago comic book one shot will be the most successful comic book this year when it comes out because that circulation run will be over 190k. Way too many, but you get my point. And yes, that is way more than a typical Marvel or DC comic book.

  11. Aunt Jemima says:

    Wow,I expected a war and that fight even surpassed what my group of friends and I expected.I thought Diaz’ size and cardio would be the difference and that’s pretty much how it played out.Epic blood and guts performance by Penn as well.Overall though UFC events are now single fight affairs supported by basically two hours of filler ala boxing.

  12. Aunt Jemima says:

    Oh and Alan Conceicao is right, that St.Pierre Condit matchup has snoozefest written all over it.

  13. Aunt Jemima says:

    Well ask and ye shall receive I guess.It looks like Condit has stepped aside.GSP vs Diaz superbowl weekend!

  14. Light23 says:

    Penn did not get tired from lack of cardio. Diaz simply turned it on in the second and beat the crap out of him. The guy was struggling to make it out of the round conscious.

  15. Jim Allcorn ( bluerosekiller ) says:

    I amit to being a huge Brandon Vera fan back in the day. And I jumped on the bandwagon early, back when I saw him win that single night WEC tournament. And, he looked like a sure thing over the course of his early run with Zuffa. Especially after his demolition over Frank Mir.
    But then, as we know, the wheels came off against Sylvia & it’s been pretty much down hill since then…
    A lot of which, I believe, came about with his cut down to 205.
    Sure, he’d gotten outsized & outmanned by Sylvia & Werdum in back to back bouts, but he lost more than just weight by going to light heavy. He lost speed, power & the “edge” that he once possessed early in his career. Since then, his performances have all pretty much flat & ininspiring.

  16. edub says:

    Diaz’s boxing is the best in MMA. He isn’t the fastest, but he’s not slow. He uses his range as well as anybody in MMA. His power is underrated. His body work is on par with anybody in MMA. His cardio is top notch. His combinations are sick (especially the left straight to the body and right hook to the head). I could go on.

    But I just want to say what I said on here for months. Penn whens this fight if he uses his wrestling advantage often. When he waited for too long in the second round to use it he was already taking too much punishment.

    BJ Penn had to make this fight boring to win, and he didn’t do it.

    Other things:

    -Anybody who thinks that a Diaz win over BJ Penn somehow makes him look more competitive with GSP is truly an idiot. Diaz poses the least competitive fight to GSP out of the whole WW top ten (unless Penn is still there). GSP will batter Diaz until he stops him on cuts or just sheer punishment in the 3rd or 4th round.

    -Personally, I thought Mitrione beat Kongo. I gave the first round to Mitrione. I thought the second was clearly Mitrione’s too, but oh well. I’m really glad Atlantic City didn’t have betting on sports. Kongo fought smart, but I also thought Mitrione fought way too conservatively (especially early on). Kongo gets to fight Roy nelson now and probably lose, hooray.

    -Hioki looked like crap. I thought Roop did enough to win, but again oh well. Neither guy will wear the strap in the future and Hioki’s spot in the standings takes a hit in the aftermath.

    • 45 Huddle says:

      I agree. GSP will use takedowns and pressure against the fence to basically avoid the striking element. Diaz even showed in the first that his takedown defense has not improved. Oh, and if he pisses off White enough withi his antics, he will be getting Fitch after he fights GSP, whether he wins or loses.

    • Aunt Jemima says:

      Au contraire.Penn was doin great until he stuggled for and failed to complete that takedown in the second round.That’s when his pace began to lag and Diaz really turned up the heat.Epic fight though,I’m really suprised no one else here is raving about it like me.Roop is an absolute monster at 145 and people should have been all over those juicy odds.Hioki should do okay in the UFC 145 save for Aldo and Mendes.

      • edub says:

        “Au contraire.Penn was doin great until he stuggled for and failed to complete that takedown in the second round.That’s when his pace began to lag and Diaz really turned up the heat.”

        I don’t think one has to preclude the other though. Before that failed attempt BJ was getting tagged repeatedly to the face and mid section, and that takedown attempt was more out of desperation than the calculated single he shot in the first. Diaz always turns it up though, as the rounds go on. One of the reasons why he is a must see fight for me. I rode around two 3 different places in AC just catching the last fight at the end.

        “Epic fight though,I’m really suprised no one else here is raving about it like me”

        Agreed. Great, great fight.

  17. Jim Allcorn ( bluerosekiller ) says:

    You all just keep bowing to GSP right up to February folks, ’cause then you’ll see just how much you underrate Diaz. Guarantee it.
    I have much respect for GSP, but I honestly can not fathom how some of you are seeing this fight. I mean, you REALLY think that the fighter that hasn’t finished anyone in ages is going to STOP Diaz?
    Sure, Nick has been stopped on cuts before, but in order for GSP to get into range to do THAT sort of damage to his face he’ll have to get through Nick’s punches. Something I just don’t see him capable of doing. Not without getting KO’d anyhow.
    And yeah, GSP could do some damage with G n P on the ground, but there he’ll be open to Nick’s submissions off his back. Something that I see St Pierre’s style on the mat being very open too personally.
    Maybe it’s just me, but to use Max Schmeling’s quote about Joe Louis before their first encounter “I see something”. Or, more accurately “I zee somethink”. LOL

  18. RST says:

    I didn’t think BJ looked very good in that fight.
    Diaz looked the same as he has recently, but BJ looked real slow.

    He was huffing and puffing and his eyes looked glazed a minute into round 2. I dont know if he’s just getting old or bored but he didn’t really look prepared or terribly interested IMO.

    Of course Diaz did what he had to do to win (the body shots were aces), but I think BJ probably did what he had to do to lose too.

    I actually haven’t seen his Edgar fights yet so I dont know if he has been doing this for awhile now, but what happened to the speed and fury he laid on Sanchez and Sherk?
    I didn’t see it.

    Mitrione will be fine IMO.
    I thought he won (closely) the first 2 rounds.

    I’ll bet he’s mentally fixing those 3rd round flubs in his mind right now.

    Dana sure sent a message about how far his word is worth when HE’S got something to gain.
    I suppose I don’t have that big of a problem striking the Diaz/GSP iron while its hot (just a little one), but I would have at least expected him to ACTUALLY run it past Condit first. And not just LIE about it.

    I guess when Dana is always trying to get teamy’s to muff each other over for a buck or slot he’s not asking them to do anything he wouldn’t do.

    But then there was that whole Fitch thing about Fitch not being a team player for not signing over his likeness…


  19. spacedog says:

    When was the last time GSP fought a top notch BJJ player with a good game off his back? Just wondering if Diaz might have something for him he has not seen in a while. I also suspect that Diaz will work really hard off his back with subs and strikes and might be able to steal a round or two if GSP fights too conservatively.


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