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So it begins: Sherdog says Strikeforce HW GP bouts not set for 4/9 event
By Zach Arnold | February 21, 2011
When the Strikeforce Challengers show happened last Friday in Austin, Texas, I was surprised by the fact that the promotion did not mention where their April 9th event would be. After all, 4/9 suddenly became a big date because Scott Coker floated plans of wanting to run in Japan. With that more than likely off the table (unless he wants to lose his ass financially), it left the promotion scrambling to find an arena likely in the States or perhaps Canada. Even then, you’re talking about working on short notice. I’m not here to say that Strikeforce can’t draw a crowd on short notice, but logistically they have made things hard on themselves here. Based on how business was for the February event at the Izod Center, you would think that the promotion would do OK given how strong the initial ratings and attendance figures have been. When Mike Chiappetta confirmed to me that no venue had been booked yet, I was legitimately surprised.
Which is why this Sherdog report about Strikeforce delaying the remaining first round HW GP bouts and not having them happen in April was quite the eye-opener. Should the report turn out to be valid and accurate, it just proves all along that the ‘tournament’ was nothing more than a tournament-in-name and that guys aren’t necessarily locked into fights for set dates. Even PRIDE, given their historically chaotic booking standards, managed to get that aspect of promoting right. Note that the Sherdog report claims that the promotion’s April event will happen in California, which means there’s no way in hell that Josh Barnett will be fighting on this card. That’s the downside to having the former UFC champion in your ‘tournament.’ He can’t fight in a lot of states. He certainly has the credentials to be in the tournament, but his baggage is off-the-charts.
The California card will reportedly have Tatsuya Kawajiri vs. Gilbert Melendez and Nick Diaz in the main event slot. He would supposedly face Paul Daley, but Daley has to win his upcoming fight against Yuya Shirai and not get hurt. If that happens, then Diaz will get a crack at the man who sucker-punched Josh Koscheck. Great fight, unquestionably.
Throwing his two cents on the matter, Josh Gross:
Sherdog cites unnamed sources that Strikeforce’s 2nd leg of HW GP not on April 9 card. Counters what I heard today re: St. Louis or Houston.
I’m not sure what to believe. Coker won’t get back to me. People on his staff say they have no idea what he has planned.
If Sherdog’s report is not accurate, at the very least Strikeforce & Showtime are guilty of making things logistically much harder on themselves than it should be. It also indicates horrible communication issues for the office. If Sherdog’s report is accurate, it’s a short-term momentum staller for the ‘tournament’ and it starts to raise questions in the minds of fans who were starting to get into the ‘tournament’ after Fedor’s loss and were willing to show some faith in the concept. I also think that it’s going to create some doubt in the minds of fighters involved in the tournament about what’s going on.
As I’ve said before about Strikeforce, all the fans want to see from the promotion is consistency and competency. Not either or, but both at the same time.
Topics: Media, MMA, StrikeForce, Zach Arnold | 60 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Let’s take the wait and see approach here Zach…
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Wait and see how bad this can get!
You really had to put “tournament” in brackets?
Really?
It’s a tournament in the sense that, on paper, someone said, “Hey, this is a tournament and here’s how we’ll bracket it.” But as far as having contracts for the fights and dates set, no, it’s not a tournament like a traditional sports tournament (or even a PRIDE tournament where they had venue dates announced months and months ahead of schedule).
With Sherdog having such a good relationship with SF, you would have to believe that this report is accurate, at least IMO you would.
What’s telling is Josh Gross saying Coker’s people “have no idea what he has planned.”
…really? Oh boy.
Also, how patient do we think Overeem’s going to be if he starts getting jerked around here? It took how long for them to get him to fight again, and now they get him “locked in” and they can’t even tell him when he’s going to fight?
I was against the idea of Fedor being an alternate, but tell you what: I’m all for it if they use him to replace Barnett. What have they got to lose at this point, the respect of the very loud minority on the internet that cares about Josh Barnett and/or think he lends any credibility to this tournament? He’s not baggage, because that implies something you bring with you to the airport that they’ll let you take with you onto the plane.
I know I didn’t get a chance to give you a formal welcome for being a commenter on the site, but just wanted to say thanks to you for hanging around.
Of course! Been following your work on and off for years (former pro wrestling fan/smark). Thanks for the warm welcome.
1) This Tournament will either not finish or yak until March 2012 to do so. Either way, not good. It’s what fans like myself predicted would happen. Coker isn’t a good enough promoter to make this all work seamlessly.
2) What Coker is doing is making Showtime lose faith in him. Purely my speculation…. But when you can’t deliver to the Sugar Daddy who is footing the bill, it typically doesn’t make them happy. The Fedor/Silva ratings likely mean Showtime is still interested in MMA. But will Coker be the long term promoter? Or will he be replaced? Or will he be one of many? Thus was HIS TOURNAMENT to sow what he could do before his contract expired. He’s dropping the ball.
3) Seems like Strikeforce keeps going back to San Jose despite lack of gate numbers over and over. They are having a hard time breaking $600,000 in their home town. Nobody knows who Kawajiri is to make him a high level main event. And Daley still has a fight that he could either lose or get injured. And Woodley based on his last fight just isn’t ready for a step up in competition yet. Nor does he have the cardio for a 5 round fight.
With Strikeforce…. One step forward…. Two steps back….
Of course they run San Jose. The building there owns Strikeforce. Remedial MMA 101.
Wow, all of my points and that’s your only take away. Of course I know their owners also own the arena. But that has nothing to do with it. Most markets can only be used so many times in a short time spam before they start losing their drawing power. This isn’t Vegas or NYC. This is San Jose. And going back to the same well so many times is likely to kill the market instead of help it….
Their last event there sold 9,000 tickets. Where else are they going to sell 9,000 tickets and not have to pay for an arena rental? That’s smart business.
And what was the gate? $550,000?
They haven’t been able to duplicate their attendance numbers from a few years ago. And the gate isn’t high enough to really say they are getting really good ticket prices in exchange.
And once again, you are missing the point. You go to the well enough, it will dry up. You go twice a year you likely have water there for years.
It’s not a good long term plan.
9000 tickets sold is a significant upgrade over several of their events from back when they were just a “local promotion”. Melendez/Thompson 1 didn’t sell that many. The four man MW tourney with Cung Le headlining didn’t sell that many. They sold only 500 more tickets for Shamrock/Baroni, which they spent over a year building for. The Cung Le/Von Flue card didn’t sell as many either.
Any other ridiculous statements you’d like to make?
They had over 17,000 fans when they were just a local promoter.
9,000 on a national level.
What will it be in 2 years if they continue to use thisnmarket so often?
They had that once for their debut show. When did they repeat it?
I think it’s pretty clear that they’ve gone to the well too often and effectively burnt out San Jose.
When did they burn out San Jose? 3 shows in?
Zach – I would love to know what the actual PAID attendance was for the Izod show. The crowd was over 11,000 with SF officials hoping for 14,000 as of the Thursday before the event. But they also gave away 1000’s of tickets to area dojos and the Russian community in Brighton Beach as well as at their press rally early in the week.
They produced that event on very short notice as well. It did very well ratings wise. I think paid attendance was greatly exaggerated. Not sure if the NJSACB releases a breakdown of the attendance the way NSAC and CSAC do.
I was wondering the exact same thing because of the points you mentioned, but also because it was only a week before the show when Josh (Gross) wrote that SF was expecting a sold out 14,000 and I was like, “wow, on six weeks notice, that’s UFC-level hot.” I’ll see what I can find out.
Thanks for checking. One of the reasons I ask is because of some research I usually do before a lot of local events. As of Friday morning (36 hours before the first fight), I could still buy blocks of 10 tickets at any price level for the SF event on Ticketmaster.
The biggest issue they may have run into is that they put the tickets on sale the day after the tickets went on sale for UFC 128. Those tickets got swooped up, some by scalpers I’m sure. The SF tickets were the exact same price levels except for the lowest price, which was $10 cheaper. Only so much MMA dollars to go around in an area.
I got my tickets from a local wrestling club who I’m friends with. They had a few dozen to give out.
I actually think they slightly hurt UFC ticket sales by running in NJ so close in time. It forced some of the hardcorefans to make a choice and they dd have the cheaper ticket. But the problem is that they probably hurt themselves more. The UFC can take a $250,000 hit to their gate. Strikeforce has less revenues so that amount would be a lot higher percentage to them.
I haven’t read this first hand, but supposedly Meltzer is speculating this delay is due to increased interest by CBS in broadcasting the tournament during May sweeps.
Not sure if I buy it, but I guess it is a potential silver lining.
That explanation seems plausible; however, is a Overeem-Werdum headliner – absent of confirmed network draws Carano & Fedor – something that could draw eyeballs during sweeps? Don’t forget that any Saturday date in May is likely to be in direct conflict with what promises to be the highest rated NBA Playoff campaign since 1998. I can’t imagine CBS hitting their prime 18-34 demo numbers whilst up against any playoff contest combination of Lebron, Kobe, The Celtics, or the newly minted Knicks.
The only way I could see it ‘working’ in theory is if they somehow brought Fedor back and put him in either for Josh or Rogers. Actually, there would be a lot of irony if they booked Josh vs. Fedor.
Mr. Coker said Gina wouldn’t return until June or July, but I would imagine that they would rush the return if it mean CBS.
I’m still not sure what the allure of being on CBS is at this point.
Generally, money and visibility are pretty good reasons to take a deal with a major TV network. I think both play into Strikeforce’s minds.
I’d also be surprised if SF would want the Josh Barnett “commission shopping” saga to play out on a large stage. If they aired the fight from Japan on Showtime (as was their original intent) you wouldn’t have nearly as many media write-ups on Barnett’s perpetual licensure issues. An high-profile CBS card guarantees some semblance of PED attention and media opprobrium.
Does talk of commission shopping really hurt events though? Tyson/Lewis is the most obvious case of commission shopping ever, and it was a monster success. Most recently, Pacquiao/Margarito was a case of commission shopping and that wound up having a bigger buy rate than any UFC event last year.
I’ll wait till I hear more about what’s going on before I rush to judgement here. If its because CBS wants the show, complaining that Strikeforce is damaging the credibility of their tournament by letting CBS have it seems silly.
I wasn’t necessarily suggesting that it would dissuade SF from endeavoring another card or arguing it would damage the tourney credibility (how being on CBS is anything but a triumph for SF, i know not). After all, as you’ve pointed out, combat sports are relatively immune to bad license PR. Premium cable networks were still willing to purchase and televise Edwin Valero fights after he had been banned from competition in 49 states as a results of brain trauma and even after he was barred from entry into the US for felony assault. I’m fairly sure had he not killed himself in prison that HBO/Showtime would’ve have found a way to televise any prison fights he might have had.
That said, CBS is a more conservative outlet and would seem, at least superficially, less than enthusiastic about being surrounded by PED questions. But you’re correct; combat sports: historically different rules.
There’s certainly the possibility that Barnett could be put under a microscope, however you have to remember that this is not an event that will necessarily get a ton of media coverage. None of the SF events on CBS demanded large sports coverage outlets like Sporting News/New York Times/ESPN to send numerous reporters there to cover.
And hey, on Valero – ABC did once telecast Dwight Qwai/James Scott from Rahway State Prison where Scott was locked up. It wouldn’t be the first time…
Doesn’t the same crew that produces Showtime Boxing the primary producting crew for MMA programs? If so that would make a Saturday May date nearly impossible, seeing as they are booked through nearly the entire month (Pac-Mosley, Froch-Johnson, Ward-Abraham).
I was wrong: CBS actually telecast a couple of Scott’s prison fights. So did HBO and NBC. So there you go….
It does leave Memorial Day weekend to do the show, but man, that’s like 7 weeks later than originally planned. I mean, like I said – if its CBS that wants them, it makes sense. Otherwise, couldn’t they have paid Melendez to sit on his couch for another month?
The fight between Qwai and Scott can be found on youtube! Surreal, to say the least.
Thank God I’m not the only one who thought about James Scott. I’m surprised no promoters or TV channels do prison cards anymore. It would generate some much needed interest if done on a short term basis.
And speaking of, I’m surprised that there weren’t any Tony Ayala matches in prison in the eighties. He would have been one of the greatest fighters ever if he didn’t turn out to be such a complete scumbag.
May 7th is Pacquiao
May 14th & 21st are Super Six
May 28th is UFC PPV that has a weaker drawing main event but does have Quinton Jackson and Frank Mir on it.
May is not a good month. Which makes me think CBS is not the reason they are delayed. At least not for the sweeps month reason.
Perhaps delay it until June? But 4+ months between the first rounds is horrible. 2 months was bad enough. 4+ is dysfunctional….
Speaking of fights at prisons, I once fought on an amateur card that was in a federal prison. True fact!
Strikeforce put more time into designing those varsity jackets for the parade of fighters than book dates for the GP. They’re such a joke.
upcoming UFC / Showtime schedule
April 9 Strikorce in California
April 16 Juan Manuel Lopez v. Orlando Salido
April 23 Bamtamweight tournament
April 30 UFC 129
May 7 Manny Pacquiao v. Shane Mosley
May 14 Andre Ward v. Arthur Abraham
May 21 Carl Froch v. Glen Johnson
May 28 UFC 130
Jun 4 TUF 13 Finale
Jun 11 UFC 131
Any ideas where they can fit the remaing quarterfinals?
June 18th?? I made a list above to show that May was a bad month. But I didn’t think about the rest of April or part of June.
That’s not good. They can’t even run a card at the same time as Showtime Boxing. And while they can run against the UFC, it’s going to really cut into their audience and get them a bad rating….
Coker really is clueless….
The only opening I see is May 14/21 if Showtime decides to do a Super Six double header on one of those dates instead of two separate shows.
They can go against TUF Finale like they did in December, but Pettis vs Guida is much better headliner than Bonnar vs Pokrajac and the show as a whole will get bigger ratings thanks to Lesnar.
Actually, the more I see the calendar, the more I look at it and see why all of a sudden Coker’s trying to pursue getting on CBS — because Showtime proper and Showtime PPV will be busy.
Being on CBS wouldn’t effect programming on either platform.
Now, if he can’t get on CBS and Showtime has activity going on, then he’s left with going on PPV?
Can they double book the production crew like that? Have they ever done it before?
They’ve run two countries at once before. Part of that is ultimately that they leave production up to a company in the country where ever the fight is. In the UK that’s typically Sky or Sky Box Office, and in Germany its RTL/ZDF/etc.
I assume that was for the same show on Showtime.
That’s a bug difference between doing two competing shows that could cannibalize one of them.
The Super Six is the big thing going on Showtime Sports. I highly doubt they would want to take any eyeballs off that show. Just doesn’t make sense.
Could it happen? Sure. But it just doesn’t make sense for Showtime to do that.
That’s the thing. If the Super Six fight has been over for 4 hours by the time Strikeforce hits the air, would it be cannibalizing the ratings for it? This is assuming that’s the plan, and god only knows exactly what that might be, if one even exists.
Lol….. There is no plan….
Do people want to stay inside all Saturday to watch combat sports? A good portion if the country has been snowed in for the winter. Which is one of the reasons you see a UFC Preliminary show get 2 Million viewers recently.
I think once it gets nice out people are going to get outside as much as possible.
Putting a double header on in January would have been great. In May? Probably not. The viewer is more likely going to pick one and then go do something else. So it would cannibalize one of the shows to an extent.
Since you recently got into the mmalogic quoting business…. He is saying if SF doesn’t do it in April then it won’t happen in May due to Showtime’s boxing schedule.
I only like to post mmalogic when he ends up disagreeing with your conclusions, since he’s so often the crux of many of them. LOL
As for there being no plan…the more I think about it, if Showtime wants the GP fights, they will get them. Strikeforce would have to run a barn in Alabama, but they’d happen. They can’t just tell Showtime, “Uhh, maybe later.”
I quote mmalogic when he goes ahead and makes counter arguments to what he’s said in the past that you’ve copied because its hilarious.
I have no idea what Strikeforce is or isn’t planning. What I know is that if Showtime really wants the heavyweight tournament, they have to deliver it. The venue could be a field in Iowa. They can’t just say “No dice, can we try again in June?” Something is obviously up.
Well, the rumor was always that CBS had reps at the first round. If they want to run Strikeforce, they’ll run it when they want to. Obviously it won’t be during the Pacman/Mosley fight, but its not completely insane to think that they couldn’t do it May 21st. Froch/Johnson doesn’t currently have a location, but could very well end up in the UK given Froch’s ability to sell tickets over seas. Meanwhile, if CBS wants to run against UFC, they’ll ask Strikeforce to run against UFC.
I always said the good money bet was on no finals ever happening.
I thought they’d at least get to the semi-finals before running into scheduling issues. If this thing does make to the finals, at this rate it’s going to take a year and a half to get there.
Whats the difference between a “tournament” that takes a year and a half to arrange and complete, with arbitrarily swappable and/or returning participants, and plain old standard issue matchmaking?
Exactly right, rothom.
Marketing.
This “tourney” was always ,first and foremost, a marketing scam.
It’s not a scam, at least not on purpose. It’s just plain old incompetency. If Fedor is thrown back in, THEN it’s a scam.
This is why the whole opening round (which is only 4 fights) should be on the same card and why the belt should have been on the line.
he should go with dream vs SF in japan, with no dream or k-1 until july japans fans will be hungry for mma by then, and Reem and Barn can consume all the steroids and horse meat they want with no hassle from the csac
So this Coker person is going to derail the biggest boost to SF’s marketability and legitimacy by derailing the momentum of this “tournament” (isn’t the momentum through the brackets almost the whole point of a tournament?) to wait around for a back door to enable barnett instead of slotting in one of the two apparently superfluous alternate winners.
Although one must admit that barnetts ability to ruin a promotion from a distance is terrifying and impressive.
Fed/m1 have to actually show up once or twice before initiating a meltdown.
barnett can do it remotely just by getting signed.
I shiver to imagine this power in more intelligent diabolicle hands.
The barnett effect harnessed by m1’s mind technologies would hold the world hostage.
Vera got un-cut by the UFc since it’s expected that Silva is going to piss hot. It’s the right thing to do but he is likely one fight away from being cut.
Silva looked so different for that fight. An easy example of a user.
Hmmm, I’ll admit that I’ve been getting increasingly sick of Brandons underachieving for a few years and have been calling for his cut for at least a year, but could this chance to revenge the wrong done to him be the final straw to make him finally cowboy up and get the lead out?
Its worth the chance IMO.
A rematch with Silva would be a REAL grudge match without any showmanship involved.