« UFC 126 (2/5 at Mandalay Bay); Jon Jones says he and Rashad Evans won’t fight each other | Home | Kimbo Slice does not end up making his pro-wrestling debut »
What do we do now about the Japanese fight scene?
By Zach Arnold | February 6, 2011
I cannot possibly envision a worse scenario for Japanese fight fans than what has happened this week. I don’t even know where to start when it comes to having a discussion about the precipitous erosion that we are witnessing. It is both a combination of falling behind in the evolution of the sport (MMA) and the soul of combat sports in Japan eroding due to the corrosive and corrupt nature in which the entire industry (from boxing to pro-wrestling to Sumo to MMA) is built upon.
If you’ve read this site regularly this week, you know what is happening in Japan with the implosion of Sumo on various levels. The March Grand tournament got canceled and television support from NHK & Fuji TV is currently gone. Politicians are feeling the heat for giving Sumo favored status in the country. The image is being destroyed from within.
The image for Japanese MMA is taking a beating, too. This is a results-oriented industry today and people who lose get put on the chopping block very quickly. Fans are willing to ride a fighter’s bandwagon until he/she loses one fight and all of a sudden, those same fans are gladly willing to tell you how much a specific fighter sucks. However, the criticism being leveled at the Japanese fighters is largely valid.
The history of Japanese fighters crossing over into the States for MMA can be summarized in one phrase — what’s old is new again. There’s one common pattern that we’ve seen since the 90s with Japanese MMA. The fighters from Japan who do the best in excelling overseas are not fighters who generally got a push in their home country. Kaoru Uno was in Shooto and not on a large platform. His success in the States didn’t translate or make him into a larger mainstream star in Japan. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka was a mid-level RINGS Japan fighter who ended up doing the best of the bunch and when he came back to Japan he wasn’t an ace or a drawing card to the public. Kiyoshi Tamura, who was the ace for Akira Maeda, got embarrassed by Valentijn Overeem in a legitimate fight. However, Tamura continued to fight for many years afterwards and made lots of money. There is a weird dynamic in Japan in which the public there only cares about Japanese fighters succeeding in the States if those same fighters had originally become stars in Japan in the first place.
Which is why fighters like Yoshihiro Akiyama and Kid Yamamoto losing in the States are big deals. Those were the big names to come over. Akiyama has nothing to be ashamed about so far. He’s shown a lot of heart, albeit with a questionable gas tank and a penchant for listening to what the crowd wants him to do instead of sticking with a game plan. Nevertheless, when big-name Japanese stars lose in the States, it doesn’t go over well back home.
Yushin Okami, however, falls into the Kaoru Uno/Tsuyoshi Kohsaka slot. He’s done the best out of the Japanese fighters in the UFC (in their Middleweight division) and yet, back home, nobody cares about him. He’s a no-name. He’s done occasional Samurai TV spots with New Japan wrestlers but as far as being a household name, it’ll never happen. That’s because he violated the Japanese rule of not becoming a major star in Japan before trying to win overseas. When I often describe this phenomena to American MMA fans, I often get that look of befuddlement. The best way I can explain it is that trying to compare the Japanese MMA and US MMA worlds is like trying to compare Apple’s operating system to Windows. For one reason or another, there’s always seemingly some incompatibility issues at play.
I bring up Mr. Okami’s name because he was at UFC 126 watching Anderson Silva destroy Vitor Belfort with a vicious kick. Dana White, at the post-fight press conference, knows that Okami is lingering around but is trying to figure out what to do with him if he needs to push Okami aside to make an Anderson Silva/Georges St. Pierre fight happen. In comments made to Ariel Helwani at the show, Okami says he’s ready to fight Anderson.
“I have never seen this kind of knockout. It was incredible, an awesome kick,” describing Anderson’s finish. When asked if Anderson is the best fighter in UFC, Okami simply replied, “Of course, he is the best fighter who I want to beat.” As for a plan on how to beat him, “I keep moving about and applying pressure and I grind him out.” Exactly what Dana might be afraid of (a boring fight). “I would like to have (the fight) as soon as possible but it’s all up to Zuffa.” When asked if he was afraid of everyone avoiding booking him against Anderson he calmly replied, “I don’t care because I simply like to fight the best fighters.” Well, at least he’s learning to pick up the company line.
While Okami is angling for a title shot, Kid Yamamoto is trying to angle for a do-over in the UFC after losing to Demetrious Johnson by unanimous decision. He apologized to fight fans (in this Ariel Helwani interview) for the way he performed in his UFC debut.
“I don’t feel (this) fight. I feel (it was) like just a wrestling match, you know. Sorry. Like people before the fight cheer me, you know, like people told me, yeah, I always wanted to see you in the US, you know, but I disappoint everybody in the US and whole world. I am like sorry, you know, but I learn. Next time I’m going to fight good.”
Yamamoto noted that a lack of experience in the cage and lack of adaptation to the UFC-style of fighting hurt him.
“I show everybody, you know, like I got taken down like 4-5 times, like little girl, you know. It’s no good.
“I thought, you know, more stand-up, you know, but… he took me down, you know, but I learn, you know. Next time I’m going to watch the takedowns.
“After, you know, second round I was worried too much about takedowns so I couldn’t go scrap.”
Kid noted that the problems he faced against guys like Joe Warren came back to haunt him here, something he vows to fix the next he fights in the cage.
“Yeah, takedown defense and then I’m going to takedown, too, I’m going to try takedown. I get more focused. I see many UFC fights, you know, today, many like winner guy did more takedowns and pound, hit. Yeah, that’s what it’s about.”
As for changing up his training style to be successful in the UFC, Kid was asked if he would consider training extensively in the States.
“Yeah, yeah. You know over here like many fighters have experience about cage, yeah, so I train in Japan good and before the fight I come and I want to spar a lot of people and I got to get used to (being) in the cage.”
Can you teach old Japanese dogs new MMA tricks?
Topics: Japan, Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 35 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
It’s not exactly fitting to the topic but since everybody is talking about it: Yes there has been a front kick ko before silva did it 😉
I thought of the 2005 K-1 Japan Max Final where Kohi hit Nitta with it in the final match right after 30 seconds of nothing! Awesome technique anyway!
@Zach: Do you have any information about what impact the UFC live broadcast in Japan has?
Very, very small. WOWOW is not big at all for them. WOWOW is what Maeda’s RINGS used to be on in the 90s and it didn’t help his survival. I remember for his retirement fight against Karelin, he had gotten lots of network TV offers to put the bout on there for good money. However, he kept the fight on WOWOW (at Yokohama Arena) and people were having a hard time accessing to watch.
WOWOW still isn’t big. UFC tried airing some shows in the past on TV Tokyo, the smallest of the networks, and that didn’t pan out.
Japanese MMA continues to just look 2nd rate.
Omigawa, despite getting some close decisions in Japan was at least competitive. In his UFC debut, he was completely dominated. Perhaps that alone wouldn’t be a huge sign. But look at the way Gomi has done outside of one punch. Or Aoki against Melendez. Or Kid against an undersized Bantamweight.
The Japanese fighters aren’t even remotely competitive in today’s game. They seem lost.
Even guys like Zaromiskis and Hornbuckle…. Who looked dominant in Japan looked average in the states. Makes you wonder the real value of guys like Santiago or even Overeem.
Rankings need to be re-evaluate, especially in the lower weight classes. There needs to be a major reshuffling of the rankings. I cannot see either a Japanese fighter or a fighter who has made their name in Japan in the last few years having any chance at being Top 5. Probably belong 8, 9, or 10 at best.
As for Okami…. I feel bad for the guy getting passed over, but does he have any fans? I think Fitch has 4 times the fanbase he has….. Which is sad buy realistic to how he fights and his personality….
With this all said…. As JMMA continues to suffer, it is very interesting that Coker is the only one thinking he can do something meaningful in that country.
It’s all about wrestling. Everyone of these guys comes over and gets run through by far superior wrestling. KID had great wrestling credentials for a Japanese fighter, but imo those are middle of the road compared to, for example, a highly credentialed U.S. wrestler.
JMMA’s rules and fighters/style are far more favourable to stand-up and submission grappling. For mma and in particular North American MMA, wrestling is the proven dominant base. We’ll get a better idea on Overeem after the tourney, but there’ll still be a question mark regarding how he deals with a high level wrestler.
Two more scalps to my list. My betting strategy sees the $ continue to roll in.
Not just the techniques of wrestling but also the weight cutting. Akiyama, Aoki, Gomi, Yamamoto, and others all look small for their weight classes.
What’s your betting strategy? Bet against the Japanese fighter?
I’ve thought about betting on MMA…. I typically go 5-2 or 5-3 in the predictions I make…. I should probably do a few month test run to see if I would of bet how well I would do…
Book small money. Like a twenty here, maybe as fifty there, etc. And then go from there. I might start doing that soon.
Lay down big bets against every single “hyped” JMMA fighter for their debut. Almost always coming in as a betting favourite, regardless of their opponent/style match-up…the numbers don’t lie.
If you watched Omigawa vs. Mendes, and came out thinking it wasn’t even remotely competitive, you might be in too much of a rush to run back here and trash Japanese fighters. That was a good fight.
There is no questioning that guy’s heart. Tough as nails. He just got overpowered even as he tried to press forward in the action. He called exactly how Mendes would fight in pre-fight interviews but he just couldn’t stop the takedowns in the end.
He stopped a majority of the takedowns though. The problem as I saw it was how he started slow, got hit too much early, and didn’t get his workrate up to speed until it was too late.
He also caught Chad in the same straight armbar he broke Cole Escovedo’s arm a few months ago. Chad won, but Michihiro was very competitive against – let’s not forget – the USA today consensus #12 FW. It wan’t like he got killed by a chump.
As for KID, what did we really expect? He’s 33, took a leave of absence to try and make the 2008 Olympics and suffered to severe injuries which forced him to have surgery and take more time off. He entered the Octagon at 2-1 in his last 3 and his one win was a squish match. The excitement for KID wasn’t because we thought he was still the best in Japan it was the hope that we’d see the KID of 2007 again.
Whole heartedly agree with this. It was that hope that we’d see the speed and power from the dynamo that was Kid in 2006. It’s why I changed my pick the day before the fight.
I thought outside of the straight armbar, and a few exchanges on the feet Chad Mendes dominated the fight.
I sent you an e-mail regarding this topic Zach, but you did not respond to it. I used the contact form that you have on this website.
In answer to the main question, you can just focus on the UFC. I understand that you post this stuff regarding the Japanese fight industry to get page views. You have aligned yourself so closely to the Japanese fight industry that you have no other choice than to post about it, even when what you should be writing about is the performance of Anderson Silva and the super fight with GSP. But by making this post, you are just looking for page views so that others can pile on about how the JMMA fighters and the industry sucks.
So, to end, just write and talk about the UFC. It is obvious that they are on another level compared to JMMA, so why write about them.
Please respond here, since you will not do so through e-mail.
My contact form forwards mail to [email protected] – try using the address directly. Thanks.
But to answer your question(s)/thought(s), who in their right mind thinks that I write about Japanese MMA for page views? If I wanted page views I’d be 100% UFC all the time. I wouldn’t spend my time writing on Japan, Strikeforce, and other MMA promotions if my main concern was hits. I write what I write because it’s what I am passionate about.
As for Anderson Silva’s fight performance, it speaks for itself. He is the best at what he does. I actually listened to the Steven Seagal interview that Ariel Helwani did last night and almost transcribed it, but I was behind on other work and passed up on it. I respect the fact that you are willing to be honest, but telling me what I should or shouldn’t write on is kind of silly.
I look at the MMA world from a global viewpoint and I understand the Japanese scene fairly well. So, why wouldn’t I use that base of knowledge to talk about the current order of the MMA world?
Zach not only knows the JMMA scene extremely well, but he’s one of the few journalists who actually writes about it.
Although sometimes it seems like you write a bit *too* much about various JMMA topics lately, like you’re milking them a bit.
Still, I disagree with Jonathan and personally I love the JMMA stuff, especially stuff about K-1s recent troubles.
You would have hated me half a decade ago then when I predicted (and no one else did) the implosion of PRIDE and the volume of articles I wrote on that subject.
I know it sounds absurd, but the amount of posts that I write on Japan today versus in the past is smaller.
I do not want people to get the impression that I dislike JMMA when I do not. I love the fights and the organizations alot, such as Pancrase, Shoot, ZST, and DEEP. Heck, I have actually called (On Skype) Pancrase’s Front Office to find about about a fighter.
But I feel alot of what goes on here is trashing JMMA, and I can understand that prerogative. I guess I just feel that since JMMA is second rate compared to “American MMA” (which I love as well) that you can stop writing about it, because all it does is let alot of pro-UFC “jock hangers” trash it.
And for the record, I have never once said that Zach DOES NOT KNOW about the Japanese fight industry as a whole. In fact, just the opposite is true. I have been coming to this page since 2007/2008, and I understand that he understands alot about. I would even go so far as to say that he is probably the second most knowledgeable reporter on it who’s first language is NOT Japanese (Tony L. from Sherdog is #1 IMHO)
Zach’s coverage of the Japanese scene is a staple of this page. Just like his coverage and our debating about the promotional and broadcast aspects of the business.
This website spun off from Puroresupower.com Zach’s site about Japanese Pro Wrestling and MMA.
For him not to talk about Japanese MMA would be weird.
The early days of this site focused on the wars between UFC & PRIDE and PRIDE and K-1.
Right now we are in a period where UFC won both wars. PRIDE is dead and K-1 is a joke and probably about to die.
I hope something can rise from the ashes in Japan. I love the pageantry and passion Japanese fans, TV companies and promoters bring to the fight game. I’m also not a very big fan of how UFC is becoming college wrestling with punches.
My advice is if you don’t want to read about Japanese MMA just skip those articles.
You know there are some dumb posters on this site. There are some very intelligent ones also. They all do one thing here, and that’s post their opinions regarding the industry/recent fights.
Jonathon you have become an anomaly. 80% of your posts have become attacks, and accusations against posters(45 in particular) and now the head writer.
If you don’t like this site don’t like what certain people write than rebuke their comments with facts, and an effective counter argument. If you don’t like what the writer of the article has written than do what guys like smoogy have done on this page, counter it with your opinion and address his rebuttal with your interpretation of events.
Why post here if you don’t want to have intelligent discussion? You’re not adding anything to this site.
So you mean writing the same responses over and over again, worded slightly differently, without any rebuttal/counterargument or thought process involved isn’t intelligent discussion?
Zach, thank you for all the non-UFC related stuff you provide. UFC is covered so well by the many sites out there. It is great to get all the JMMA info that you provide, there are very few people able to provide the insight that we get from you.
I realize the masses have a much lower interest on JMMA and non-UFC MMA and that you cater to a narrower subset of even the hard cores.
Note: you are very patient with Jonathan, it must take some control not to lash out at him.
‘Note: you are very patient with Jonathan, it must take some control not to lash out at him.’
No kiddin, we have seen Zach lash out at some people on here if that was him, I believe it was last year. When I first started coming over here from PuroresuPower many years ago (Zach had great articles there, sorry I mispelled your name earlier)…I thought he was being biased against Japanese industry too. But he made interesting points after reading them and some very good information on the JMMA game.
I am OK with being trashed, with being lashed out at. I know it comes with the territory.
But I also know that I am not the only one that has a problem with 45’s posts. He trashes anything and everything that is not the UFC to such a degree that I feel like I have to say something. Is that a problem with me…probably, but I know that it is a feeling that others share.
As for “trashing” Zach, I feel that I am calling out more so than “trashing” him. I feel that some of his posts are garnered in a way to create page views and big discussions in the comments section. That is what I mean by page views. Look back, and alot of his UFC posts receive very little in the way of users comments except after a PPV. But if he posts something about Strikeforce or JMMA, the comments section blows up.
A recent example of this is THIS very topic. Just coming off the heals of a seminal PPV for the UFC, and the first post is about Japanese MMA. If others cannot see my logic in this, I understand.
In addition to that, the posts he makes about JMMA and Strikeforce are usually negative, as in they are going out of business. Its cool to make a post or two about this, but if every post is to this end, then why post about it? IF you think that they are going to die, then just let them. All it does is give 45 Huddle and others like him a chance to pile on and trash them.
In the end, I would love to come to this site and just post positive stuff, and in turn see positive stuff posted. I know that is not going to happen, as our world does not work that way. I will try and be less harsh, but I hope others try to do the same.
As for Zach, this is his site, his brainchild, and I know that he knows he can post whatever he wants to.
Is this really Snowden calling someone else out for writing stuff for page views?
Snowden usually signs in as his complete name on this site.
No…I am Jonathan from Oklahoma…I am NOT Jonathan Snowden.
Just for the record.
What we saw at UFC 126 with Kid and Omigawa losing is what we’ve seen happen before the results were hardly a shock or unexpected.
And I want to say it’s not just a knock on Japanese or asian fighters only, it also applies to fighters from all different nationalities that also come to the states and get exposed.
We’ve seen the same story over and over again, guys get hyped up as the second coming overseas and end up getting a reality check when they step on american soil.
Which is why it continues to amaze me that writers and fans fall into the same trap by overating and overanking these fighters routinely. Then when they end up getting beat it’s like they are surprised when if they did their homework they’d see the pattern is pretty clear.
Of course there are exceptions as there are to anything and i’m not just talking about guys coming over to the UFC and losing. It applies to all promotions from the US from Bellator to Strikeforce, people need to face facts and realise it’s another world for guys to be great here than over in Japan.
Can you teach old Japanese dogs new MMA tricks?
Yes. Everything that has made Okami an elite Middleweight he learned Stateside.
As you’ve noted in the past, the Japanese have a different mentality and approach to MMA that needs to be drastically altered if they want to be compete on the same level as fighters based in the Americas. Until then, however, the only choice fighters like Yamamoto have is to train here.
‘Kiyoshi Tamura, who was the ace for Akira Maeda, got embarrassed by Valentijn Overeem in a legitimate fight.’
Actually Zach, I thought it was Gilbert Yvel who embarrassed Tamura. I remember seeing that one awhile back.
In RINGS, it was Overeem. You might find it on Youtube?
The key issue for me is the very title and assertion of the post. There is nothing for “us” to do. Japanese MMA can either alter itself to the realities of the sport or it’ll continue its fade into running shows at nightclubs and Korakuen Hall. There’s no enigmatic superstar on the horizon at this moment and so there’s little to discuss on that front. But more importantly than that, its an issue the Japanese will have to figure out and in the meantime I see no reason or logic behind stressing out over it.
I don’t understand what the big deal is; Japanese fighters don’t have a special place in my heart and the best fights in Japan were all featuring great Gaijin fighters (to be fair though, I’m not a puro mark); Saku and Kid in his prime are the only great Japanese fighters I’ve ever seen. Japan’s mma relevance right now is somewhere between that of Belarus and Honduras. Get over it.
It is true that the best fights in Japan featured Gajin fighters. But those fights were on cards that had big time Japanese draws on them. That’s what filled up the buildings and spiked the TV ratings to allow for the great fights to be made.
I much preferred the PRIDE rules that allowed for soccer kicks and knees to the head of a downed opponent. I think allowing those in UFC would counterbalance some of the wrestling we see and make fights more exciting.
I love PRIDE rules. PRIDE also worked fights and gave Japanese fighters special advantages (making Rampage lose 25 pounds or so the day of the fight or they wouldn’t pay him, giving Saku an extra round after Mezger whipped his ass in the allotted fight time, etc).
I would like to see a combo of PRIDE and UFC rules. I think elbows on the ground are cool, as long as knees to the head and kicks to the head of a downed opponent are ok too.
The point is, Japanese mma is dead and it ain’t coming back for a while. Japanese fighters are being exposed over and over as being big fish in a tiny, non-weight cutting pond.
I don’t miss the refs and judges fixing fights in PRIDE. I miss the rules.
I would like to see the rules in the U.S. allow kicks and knees to the head of a downed opponent in addition to elbows to the head.
I would like to see the best guys in the sport fight under those rules.