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About that ‘mock’ Strikeforce Heavyweight 2011 tournament poster…
By Zach Arnold | January 6, 2011
A tip of the cap to MMA Supremacy. Consider this an MMA version of a Rorschach test. Couple of interesting interpretations here.
By the way, I think the media reaction to the way things played out this week with the tournament is revealing. There area growing amount of writers (such as an old compadre) who are using blanket, generalized “MMA media” labels when they have grievances or complaints about the way the “MMA media” covered the story. Which, of course, brings up the question — why are people afraid to specifically call out individuals? Second, I think amongst hardcore fans and those whose livelihood isn’t dependent on MMA, we saw some honest (and generally valid) criticism leveled for the way the tournament is being rolled out.
Topics: Media, MMA, StrikeForce, Zach Arnold | 66 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Boy, M-1 has them by the balls, huh?
Their champion, a former UFC HW Champion and the man who subbed Fedor are thumbnails.
That isn’t really the poster, is it?
Weird that the fighter in the main event is the focus of the poster instead of someone who isn’t even fighting on the card.
Legit LOL. But, but…Overeem should have the biggest picture! Then we could openly complain about how his fight isn’t even on that night!
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that when they unroll the actually posters they’ll be one poster highlighting each of the participants instead of only this poster highlighting the fact the the most famous, biggest attraction is taking part.
First the good things:
It’s a beautiful poster. Great design work.
I really like the new SF logo. Looks tremendous. Much better than that silly tramp stamp looking thing they used to have.
The not so good:
Fedor got tooled in his last fight. Why is he the primary focus of this thing. A lot of his mystique is gone. Yet he’s the only guy in color and has his silly nickname on the poster. Funny that Werdum the guy who tooled him is buried on the left side, below Arlovski.
No mention of a championship anywhere on this thing. It doesn’t say SF champ next to Overeem’s name or that the belt will be on the line. I have no problem if the finals are for the SF belt. But if this is a non-title affair why bother? Not like the SF belt means anything but whoever wins this should be the champ.
Also from the positioning of Silva, Rogers and Kharitonov it sure looks like they’re the jobbers brought in to round this thing out. Which raises the question: Why not just do a four man event in the first place?
Lastly is Full Tilt a sponsor of this thing? Why give them free advertising on your poster. It looks cheap.
Maybe I read into these things like this more than most because I’m visually oriented and work in media.
All things considered it’s a very well done poster. Up there with some of the Japanese classics. But it ends up being very silly if Fedor doesn’t win the GP.
Lastly is Full Tilt a sponsor of this thing? Why give them free advertising on your poster. It looks cheap.
Probably so. They’ve been heavily investing in MMA since getting bounced out of the UFC and have been a pretty big sponsor for KOTC and Strikeforce both. Lots of fighters too.
Assuming this is real, they certainly should have had a more even picture design. UFC at least puts both fighters in the main event side by side instead of just “GEORGES ST. PIERRE (and some other guy).”
But…..
#1 Would this even be an internet issue if it wasn’t Fedor? Absolutely not. If they did this with Dan Henderson, nobody would say a word. Because it’s Fedor and everybody hates Fedor online it gets knee-jerk reactions. Same with if this was the UFC and they did a poster with Lesnar, but nobody would complain if they did it with GSP.
#2 Who cares? How many people see fight posters anyway.
#3 I think the reason why they did it is hoping that the heavy Russian population in the New York/New Jersey area come out to see Fedor. Isn’t that why M1 was pushing them so hard to get out of the west and mid-west and into the east coast? If they push it as “This Russian guy is a really big name in the sport”, it would get more Russians than giving him the same “yeah, he’ll be here” treatment Sergei Kharitonov gets. Ethnic groups have always come out more for pride that their athlete is a major factor in the sport than just that they’re there.
“If they did this with Dan Henderson, nobody would say a word.”
They did do this with Henderson, and everyone on the internet was talking about how Shields was getting no build up eventhough he was the champion.
I agree it’s a little blown out of proportion though.
“I think the reason why they did it is hoping that the heavy Russian population in the New York/New Jersey area come out to see Fedor. Isn’t that why M1 was pushing them so hard to get out of the west and mid-west and into the east coast? If they push it as “This Russian guy is a really big name in the sport”, it would get more Russians than giving him the same “yeah, he’ll be here” treatment Sergei Kharitonov gets. Ethnic groups have always come out more for pride that their athlete is a major factor in the sport than just that they’re there.”
That’s a great point. Kinda like keeping Adamek in NJ instead of trying to hustle him all around the US in boxing, except for the Arreola fight.
There wasn’t nearly the outrage, not even 1/10th. You had lots of people saying it is Shields’ fault for having a really dull fight with Miller, which gave nothing for Strikeforce to build on besides the “Uh, well, hey, he wins fights!” And also Strikeforce knowing he was immediately leaving to go to UFC. They really believed Henderson was going to knock him out so they’d get their title off of him and deliver UFC damaged goods. But it didn’t work that way.
If the UFC did this, people would call it a great business move. Like, let’s say if Anderson Silva announced win or lose he’d leave to go box RJJ after the Chael Sonnen fight. So UFC would spend all of their promotional time on Sonnen to make him their big star and use “Silva’s fights have been really boring and that gives us nothing to work with” as their excuse. People on here would praise that as good business.
I mean personally I haven’t seen much of it, but I also only first saw the poster today. So I could have missed somethings on other sites.
It’s also backlash for m1/Fedor acting like pricks for the last 3 years.
If Hendo gets lopsided promotion its a little awkward.
But after the way m1/Fedor has been acting its offensive.
I don’t understand the anger at Fedor/M1 at all.
Most of the people most enraged dislike Strikeforce to begin with, so why do you care that they’re getting a raw deal by putting up with it?
And most importantly, all this is hurting is Fedor, not UFC or MMA. He is not bigger than the sport, nor does his inaction hurt MMA, nor has UFC suffered one single bit because they don’t have him. It simply does not matter, so why there is this obsession with his actions by people who dislike him is beyond me. If anything these people should be happy that they self-destruct and ruined Fedor’s legacy instead of pissing and moaning about the same exact things for 4 years.
“Most of the people most enraged dislike Strikeforce to begin with,…”
There are many people who dont like the way SF is getting punked, whether or not they care for SF in general.
BTW, an MMA fan likes SF just fine!
And would still be pee’d about M1.
2: I typed M1/Fedor for a reason.
Dont get it twisted!
Nobody is mad at fed, we’re frustrated with the abominable m1/fed mutant.
Fed is awesome and nobody has a problem with that.
Nobody is mad at fed, we’re frustrated with the abominable m1/fed mutant.
Fed is awesome and nobody has a problem with that.
Is there an echo in here?
😛
But this is his choice to be managed like this. The idea that he’s being held hostage by his managers is just absurd, he’s not Brian Wilson having his life controlled by his therapist or Tom Cruise bound to Scientology. Are they good managers? For the people they have to work with, no. But maybe in Fedor’s view of what he wants in life they are. It has never been proven Fedor is being held in some kind of slave contract to them. For all we know it is his idea to want an M1 co-promotion so when he retires he can help run it like De La Hoya and Golden Boy. To me, that theory makes much more sense than Fedor being held captive for years by Vadim Finkelchtein.
At any rate, being angry at a grown man for making decisions you think are bad for him (and lots claim MMA as a whole) is ridiculous. You can’t assume he’s a helpless damsel in distress just because he’s going a different route than other fighters would.
The 4 fighters not on this card not being larger don’t bother me. Why would they be bigger? They aren’t fighting in February.
But what this poster does show is that Strikeforce and Showtime STILL have not learned their lesson.
They didn’t learn their lesson with Jake Shields vs. Dan Henderson. They didn’t learn their lesson with Bobby Lashley vs. No Namer Guy. They are constantly doing this.
And the lesson is that you need to promote BOTH fighters in a fight equally. Because anything can happen. And if you promote both fighters, then whoever wins you get fans caring about what the fighter is doing next.
But when you promote only one of them, there is much less upside when there is an upset. If Bobby Lashley lost to Shane Del Rosario… Then Lashley losing would still have been a gain for Strikeforce. But because he lost to a guy less known to fans, it was just one big disaster for Strikeforce.
What the poster should really have is Fedor Emelianenko and Antonio Silva at about the same size. And then Arlovski/Sergei also in color but a little smaller as the co-main event. And then if they want to include tiny little pictures of the rest of the tournament guys, that makes sense.
Sure, the poster isn’t going to make or break an event. But it still shows that both Strikeforce and Showtime STILL do not understand how to properly promote MMA. They really just don’t get it…. And after this much time, that is sad….
Another thing that has gone unnoticed by the “MMA Media” is Strikeforce’s flop on tickets for this event.
Strikeforce announces their plans for the Grand Prix and then no tickets are on sale for over a week. And even worse, they are coming to the market the week after the UFC tickets.
UFC 128 Tickets Fight Club is Jan 11th. Newsletter is Jan 12th. General ticket sales is Jan 13th.
Strikeforce is Pre-sale on Jan 12th and General tickets sales is Jan 14th.
Most tickets are sold for the UFC through the Fight Club. And most people don’t subscribe to the Strikeforce Newsletter.
They really need to get their act together. When they announced the event, tickets needed to be on sale within the week. Giving this 2 week gap between announcing the event and tickets going on sale could hurt their gate. It was obvious the UFC made sure their tickets went on sale beforehand because they didn’t officially announce UFC 128 until after Strikeforce announced their Grand Prix.
It’s small things like this…. That can have much larger money implications….
I actually think that tickets won’t be that big of an issue. With the Russian population Mark alluded to earlier, and the fact that most hardcore fans want to see Fedor fight in person before he retires. I think the event sells out.
Now what this does for TV ratings I don’t know, and if there is a big spike in ratings for a Fedor fight does M1 get ballsy and try and promote Fedor for strictly M1 shows from then on?
We have already seen what happens with Fedor on Showtime. It’s higher then Nick Diaz but not close to Gina Carano.
Well in all fairness Fedor isn’t nearly as hot as Gina. Him vs. Cyborg is a toss up though.
And Chicago is a much better market for Russian Fighters. Which is why Arlovski vs. Fedor was done around there. And even that event didn’t have a killer gate.
New York obviously has all ethnicities, but there just isn’t a huge Russian polulation around here. You want to sell a fight to the Puerto Rican market? Fantastic! Even the Polish market is solid as showcased by that Cruiserweight Boxer who’s name I forget.
But Chicago is the KEY market, and Fedor did not have a huge success there. I highly doubt New Jersey will be any different.
And never never never underestimate the power of traveling over the bridges into NJ. It’s definitely something many New Yorkers don’t always like to do. Which is why Madison Square Garden could do double the gate that New Jersey can do despite it being such a short distance away.
Ah, good to know. Frankly I don’t know much about the areas, but we’ll see how many does the venue sit?
It’s the name I talked about ealier, Tomasz Adamek.
“And never never never underestimate the power of traveling over the bridges into NJ. It’s definitely something many New Yorkers don’t always like to do. Which is why Madison Square Garden could do double the gate that New Jersey can do despite it being such a short distance away.”
That’s an incredibly simplistic view of that situation.
The IZOD Center seats approx. 20,000 (depending on configuration) for your typical major sports (NBA, NCAA, NHL).
Other than the fact that New Yorker’s don’t seem to hold NJ in the highest esteem and the teams generally suck these days, I don’t know why people don’t go out more often…it’s a pretty painless and quick train ride out there.
As for Huddle’s comment (and he sounds like a life-time New Yorker/Manhattanite vs. my recent immigration, so take my thoughts with a large grain of salt) – I think the attendance issue has a lot more to do with the quality of teams or lack there of and the lack of fanbase more than anything else. If there was a reason for people to take the train out there they would…the Jets and Giants sure don’t seem to have any problem convincing New Yorkers to go across.
And let’s be honest – is he really trying to compare attendance and gate for MS-f**kin’-G vs. NJ arenas as factor of bridge and tunnel travel? That’s silly…
It is absolutely more complicated then I make it out to be.
But my point is that if somebody from outside of the Northeast looks on a map, the stadium complex in Upper State New Jersey is so close to New York City that it would be hard to figure out why those events just don’t attract so many people from the biggest city in America. And the fact is that the NJ Complex doesn’t get half as many New Yorks as you would think.
I don’t live in NYC, but I’ve been there a lot. And I’ve made that drive from the city to the Meadowlands. And it is pure hell of a drive for such a short distance. Even Yankee Stadium is very tough to get to do to it being so close to the bridge… I want to say the GW, but I always get confused by which one is which.
Either way, the logic that if you put it near NYC people will come is just false…. Which is also why the UFC is pushing so hard for regulation in NY. Less then 20 miles makes a huge difference. Not to mention that if somebody happens in NYC, it gets a completely different sort of buzz.
Ahhhh…I see what you were getting at, I was missing the point.
“And Chicago is a much better market for Russian Fighters. Which is why Arlovski vs. Fedor was done around there”
Arlovski vs Fedor was held in SoCal, as was Fedor vs Sylvia. In both cases. selling around 12,000 tickets. LA seems would be a logical market to hold a Fedor fight.
Your right…. Fedor vs. Rogers was in Illinios… That’s the one I was thinking of.
Either way, Fedor has competed in the biggest Russian market in the US already….
Man, I can’t believe how Giants and Jets games are so poorly attended by New Yorkers. How do they cope never having sell-out games?
And you’re missing another key issue people will choose running in NJ over NYC: taxes, taxes, taxes. I’d be shocked if UFC runs more than one show every other year at MSG after it gets regulated. Promoters cannot stand New York’s high taxes. It’s one thing to run a monster boxing event that you know will do huge business with because you’ll have Puerto Rican stars on it. I don’t think UFC would be comfortable coming to MSG unless they had a monster show, and they seem to be really interested in running those in Canada right now.
“I think the event sells out.”
Why?
Has Strikeforce ever sold out a venue outside of their home market? Hell, they can’t even sell out in San Jose anymore. Fedor-Werdum didn’t come anywhere near filling the HP Pavilion. They used to regularly sell out or come close to it with Shamrock/Le headlining cards, but haven’t come anywhere near those numbers lately.
Strikeforce’s track record selling tickets outside of San Jose is not encouraging. I’ll be downright shocked if they sell out.
It was just a hunch considering most of the online traffic I’ve seen from east coasters who wanna see Fedor fight in person. I could definately be wrong though.
First of all this is not really the real event poster because the card isn’t set yet. This poster is only to promote fedor being apart of the tournament since he is headlining the actual event on 2/12/11.
@45 huddle: As far as sf highlighting the more popular fighter the one the fans will be buying tickets or tuning in to showtime or cbs to see. That’s what’s important right & if the popular fighter loses another star is born or the fighter highlighted was just exposed like bobby lashley. Ufc can afford to highlight both fighters because the UFC logo is the most popular person,place or thing on the poster.
@steve4192: Strikeforce did sellout in chicago & the card was headlined by fedor though it was only 12,000 seats availible.
Where did you find those numbers?
Illinois doesn’t release attendance or payroll numbers.
I thought I remember seeing numbers somewhere regarding attendance for that fight, so I assume they were released. It was held at the Sears Centre which has a capacity around 12,000. I was also at that fight, and it was full. Plus, the overwhelming majority of fans were there to see Fedor. That place was electric from the moment he was introduced until he left the ring. I don’t understand how you could conclude Fedor was not successful in Chicago.
Stockholm syndrome IMO…
Why not highlight the FAN reaction to the tournament? Oh right, they actually have good things to say about Strikeforce at the moment. We can’t have that.
I’m actually surprised Strikeforce didn’t try to get Bob Sapp into this tournament.
Speaking of Strikeforce promoting one fighter way more than the other, remember the Bob Sapp/Jan Nortje fight? The promotion was ALL Sapp. And, of course, Nortje blew Sapp out in 56 seconds. So Strikeforce’s promoting fallacies goes farther in the past than Henderson/Shields.
Strikeforce at the Dome was just an awful, AWFUL show. Some of those early Strikeforce shows were downright terrible. They have certainly come a long way.
LOL were they supposed to hype Jan Nortje?
Also, that show was crap. Almost no one at the time talked about how bad the average Strikeforce show was because they were DOIN IT RITE as promoters.
HAHA yeah I remember all of that. But, truth be told, since going to Showtime Strikeforce has become a fine promotion fight quality wise. I still think Bellator put on more fun shows, but Strikeforce is a fine promotion. And unlike Bellator, Strikeforce will probably survive the remainder of 2011.
It’s funny. Strikeforce was considered a promotional genius when they put on shitty shows. And now Strikeforce is considered shitty, and mark-ish (for Coker’s boner for Japanese fighters), and incompetent when putting on good shows. This might all be true, but still.
Its the most incredible thing. Ultimately, the only conclusion one can draw is that a goodly number of people aren’t watching MMA for the fights themselves. Is that what this whole discussion is about? I’m not entirely sure it isn’t.
Even if someone big drops out and there’s a replacement and somehow Andrei Arlovski wins the tournament…so what? Its not like anything that happens in MMA is of great value to the future of the human race. Just enjoy it. I wish half the effort was put into analyzing fighters that was done on analyzing fight posters.
You know the thing that gets me the most about this Strikeforce HW tournament, is how all of a sudden because they came out with a bracket their HW jumped up to being better than the UFC’s.
I mean before the announcement no one with a straight face would have made that claim. Now all of a sudden you have BE trying to convince anyone that’ll listen how great their HW division is.
Seriously do these people have no shame, look I expect a certain ammount of reaching and bs from places like that but this is a new low for them. Sorry but unless Brock, Cain, Carwin, Dos Santos and Mir all retire the UFC HW is head and shoulders above SF’s. Unless your doing heavy drugs or have drank too much of Coker’s kool-aid this isn’t even a debate. But again maybe i’m the fool because this are the same people who hail Overeem as a god when he hasn’t beaten a top HW since he came up from LHW. And the same people who say that Brock was exposed after losing to Cain while holding up Fedor as a top HW after being subbed in a minute by a UFC washout.
Seriously i’m all for people being pumped about this tournament, if SF can pull it off which is a huge question i’ll give them their props. But to reach so far and basically write ridiculous article after ridiculous article about how SF is going to overtake the UFC etc. is pathetic stop it seriously.
“Now all of a sudden you have BE trying to convince anyone that’ll listen how great their HW division is.”
Well they actually do have a pretty good collection of snazzy HW’s. But this is the first evidence that I recall of actually getting most of them to do anything.
IE: that they actually compose any sort of “division”.
If this does come off the way its been dreamed up, and everybody continues to be active from now on then I wouldn’t have a problem comparing SF’s HW Div with the UFC’s.
It would be SF’s set of proven vets vs. UFC’s set of standout youngbloods.
All of those proven vets are former Pride fighters for the most part. The UFC got Pride’s #2 & #3 proven vets and those guys are struggling against the UFC’s current crop of Heavyweights.
Why do those “proven vets”…. Guys like Sergei and Barnett…. Who haven’t fought real competition for years… All of a sudden get a chance to leapfrog anybody when their better counterparts have already shown the best competition is currently in the UFC?
Nogueira would still beat Barnett again. Nogueira would still beat Werdum again. Cro Cop would still beat Barnett again. They are just better fighters. Just because they have looked bad against superior competition like Mir and Velasquez, doesn’t mean they still aren’t superior.
People’s hate for the UFC lets them get in the way of real logic here….
Well thats one comparison.
🙂
Hilarious. Barnett would destroy today’s Nogueira and CroCop. Werdum would also beat Nog today. Haven’t you been watching the sport over the last few years?
I’ll put it this way.
They’ve got a handful of at least decent HW’s IMO.
But we’ll get a much better idea of where or even “if” they stand (AhemRoidnettAhem) after this GP.
Then lets compare them.
“Barnett would destroy today’s Nogueira and CroCop. ”
Based on what?
If Nog & Cro Cop had fought the same schedule Barnett has fought since 2006, they would be undefeated too. We have no idea how good Barnett is currently because he hasn’t fought anyone. He might be just as good as he was in 2006, or he might be just as far gone as Nog & Cro Cop but hasn’t faced guys capable of exposing his decline.
That said, 45 is crazy for saying Nog would beat Werdum again. Fabricio was a novice in the sport when Nog beat him in 2006 and has clearly improved a TON since then. Werdum is legit.
Based on both of them being clearly shot fighters and Barnett still having something left. You have to actually watch the fights, you know. Besides, Josh is three years younger than CroCop, and striking skills goes downhill faster than grappling. Nog is still great on the ground, but he’s target practice standing for any decent HW striker (hell, even Mir who doesn’t really qualify as a “decent HW striker” totally had his way with him).
And what’s really hilarious is 45 suggesting that anyone who disagrees with HIM is biased. Look, he makes some decent contributions here, but let’s be honest. Everyone reading, even people who agree with him most of the time, knows that the guy is really biased. When you or he deny it, you just sound ridiculous and further reduce your credibility.
You are a perfect example of a fan who just doesn’t understand QUALITY OF SCHEDULE. I preach this all of the time, but it seems like it falls on deaf ears.
Nogueira still has something left. He beat up Couture 2 fights ago. But he is looking so bad because he is fighting the top guys in the world. Nogueira has a very HIGH strength of schedule.
Josh Barnett has not fought a top guy since Nogueira back in 2007. He has a very LOW strength of schedule. And he doesn’t have a top quality win since beating Nogueira in December 2006. That is ages ago in MMA. The quality of the athletes has completely changed since then.
Think of it this way… The last time Barnett had a quality win… This was the UFC’s champions…. Sylvia, Liddell, Silva, GSP, & Sherk. Liddell is now retired. Sylvia got beat up against all of the top guys he fought. Sherk is on his way down. Only 2 are left. And even Silva is starting to show signs of slowing down slightly.
When a fighter stops fighting top guys for like 4 years…. He doesn’t get any credit for still being a top guy. Sergei Kharitonov is the same way. He just outright stopped fighting top guys for years. He wasn’t even Top 5 in Pride when they stopped running cards. All of a sudden he comes back to Strikeforce and he is a contender again with 2 wins away from a title shot? You have to be kidding me!!
Barnett is the same guy who couldn’t get past a prime Cro Cop. A prime Cro Cop couldn’t handle Gonzaga and Kongo. What do you think would happen if Barnett fought Lesnar, Mir, Nogueira, Velasquez, or Carwin now? It would be an asbolutely ugly fight with Barnett looking worse then he did against Cro Cop.
Heck, just look at last nights Challenger Series. That card showcased 2 of Strikeforce’s biggest prospects…. And neither of them looked like they could make it past midcard status in the UFC.
It’s a completely different ballgame in the UFC. Such a higher level of competition. Stop buying into the stars of 2005 somehow being a threat today. The sport has evolved. There time is over.
“and Barnett still having something left”
What makes you think he still has something left?
You don’t think Nog could have toyed with Gilbert Yvel for three rounds or submitted Mighty Mo? You don’t think Cro Cop could have TKOed luminaries such as Geronimo Dos Santos and a completely shot Pedro Rizzo?
Cro Cop certainly didn’t look shot when he was facing the Mizuno’s, Al-turk’s, and Perosh’s of the MMA world. If he had done nothing for the past four years but squash that type of talent, I’m sure you would be saying he has ‘something left’ too.
As for Nog, he certainly looked like shit against Mir, and got blasted by the arguable #1 guy in the division, but he looked pretty damn good against Couture and won the UFC interim belt in classic Nog fashion versus Sylvia. It wouldn’t shock me at all to see him beat Barnett again. On the flip side, I would also not be shocked to see Barnett win that fight. Until Barnett proves otherwise, I still rank him slightly below Nog.
Completely agree Steve. We don’t know if Barnett is shot or not because he hasn’t faced any solid competition besides Yvel (if you want to call him solid) in the past 3 years.
And claiming that he would dismantle two guys who had his number now just because they lose to top guys is a pretty hard sell IMO.
Meh. I disagree. I thought CroCop did look shot even against some of his horrible recent opposition. I don’t think he’d do what Barnett did to Rizzo or Monson. I also disagree that Nog looked good against Couture. He was getting hit cleanly by everything Randy threw and wasn’t reacting. He only survived that fight because Randy is a ridiculously light puncher. It was clear at the time that any real HW would KO Nog.
But anyway, I get that you’re dug into this and I’m not swaying you. Some people just seem to think that being promoted by the UFC gives people magical powers. We’ll just have to see how things play out.
“Some people just seem to think that being promoted by the UFC gives people magical powers”
Don’t play that
bullshitstrawman.I’m the farthest thing from a UFC hugger, I just don’t believe Barnett has challenged himself at all over he last four years. People like you who automatically play the ‘promotion wars’ card anytime sometime disagrees with them are the worst part of trying to hold a discussion about this sport.
I’m perfectly willing to admit that non-UFC HWs like Bigfoot, Werdum, and Fedor are all incredibly talented guys who have earned solid rankings, and am even willing to put Overeem in there based on his great run in K-1 and one decent MMA win.
But Barnett has done nothing since the demise of PRIDE to distinguish himself. He is resting on his laurels. Guys like Cro Cop and Nog could have taken the same path and still been highly ranked, but they chose to risk their status and step into the cage with guys who could challenge them and suffered the consequences. I have far more respect for them, despite the ugly losses, than I do for Barnett.
Hey, I agree that the promotional propaganda BS does more to drag down discussions online than anything else. If your blindspot is specific to one guy, that’s great, and I apologize for assuming that it was broader.
Obviously, I’m not going to disagree that Barnett hasn’t faced good competition since Pride. I don’t think that grappling ages as well as striking so I think he’s still very dangerous, and I haven’t seen any convincing signs that his striking has gone downhill. Time will tell, though.
“…solid competition besides Yvel (if you want to call him solid)”
Ummm, No.
Potentially dangerous, yes.
Solid, No.
You don’t think Nog could have toyed with Gilbert Yvel for three rounds or submitted Mighty Mo? You don’t think Cro Cop could have TKOed luminaries such as Geronimo Dos Santos and a completely shot Pedro Rizzo?
I think its interesting that your opinion on Gilbert Yvel has gone from “Extremely dangerous opponent for Junior Dos Santos” to a guy a shot Noguiera could toy with. This in spite of Noguiera having the worst double leg in the history of MMA for a grappler. I’m actually not sure that Cro-Cop could have KOed Pedro Rizzo either. Mirko just follows guys around in the cage, and unlike most, Rizzo even in a depleted sense can punch back. Cro-Cop looks by far the worst – I’d say he looks lost in the cage. And its too late for him to turn it around. Nogueira has been badly beaten up in every single UFC fight he has had, win or lose, with the exception of the Couture war. It should be noted that Couture came into that fight having not won a round in two years and came out of it making Brandon Vera look like he still had something in the tank.
To be fair, I don’t entirely disagree with the premise that Barnett is a question mark. I think he is unquestionably one. From what I’ve seen in the fight with Mighty Mo, he looked terrible. That was a guy who only had the ability to wing punches and some physical strength, and Barnett still was challenged trying to impose his grappling strengths on him. I think a fight with Brett Rogers is perfect – similarly ranked, physically strong, but Barnett should be able to win in impressive fashion so longer as he survives the rush. If he doesn’t? Then you know for sure that Barnett has lost a step.
SF has had a lot of talent under contract but no one cared because they couldn’t make them fight. Now that it looks like they’re making a real effort to match everyone up, people are excited. You can’t really think that Brock, Carwin or Mir are on the level of the top SF guys after their last few performances.
What you have above is opinions at completely opposite ends of the spectrum. 45 and EJ don’t understand at how the SF HW’s jump the UFC’s. Isaiah thinks that the UFC’s guys are not as good as once thought, and that the ex pride guys in SF are better than the one’s in the UFC.
Personally I think you are all wrong.
I believe the winner of this tournament is the #1 HW in the world barring JDS or Cain winning back to back in title defenses in that time frame, and a replace/reserve fighter winning the tournament. It has nothing to do with me thinking Kharitonov, Barnett, Arlovski, or Rodgers are better than Nog, Cro Cop, or even Schaub and Big Country. Personally I have them all on the same level with most of the UFC guys higher in rankings because they fight better competition more regularly. The reason I believe the winner of this tournament will be #1 is because I believe either Overeem, Fedor, or Werdum will win it. I believe Werdum right now is ranked at #2 with Fedor being ranked #3. Overeem is #8 IMO. For either of those three to win the tournament they will have to go through 1 top 10 opponent, and 1 top 5 opponent back to back. The last match should be against someone tough because they will have the confidence of winning 2 in a row, and they will also be in the top 15.
Granted if say Cain beats JDS in 6 months then immediately defends against say the winner of Roy Nelson/Frank Mir or Shane Carwin then he keeps his spot because his activity level and level of competition would have been on par with the SF tournament. I just don’t know if that will be the case because his particular injury usually takes a while to heal.
Also granted this is all assuming that the SF tourny goes off without a hitch.
“…I have them all on the same level with most of the UFC guys higher in rankings because they fight better competition more regularly.”
Ehhhh…
Maybe I misunderstood you.
Who fights better competition?
I agree that at the very least one of these guys might might get past Fedor.
And that’s worth more than many other things.
That should be worth a ranking that cant be denied under honest assumptions.
I don’t see how the position that the younger PRIDE guys, whose careers are currently going better are better than the older ones who have been looking shot is even controversial, but that’s the Internet for you.
And I didn’t make an argument about rankings at all. I’m fine with the guys facing better competition (win or lose) recently being “ranked” higher. I don’t think rankings matter at all, but that makes sense. So I’m fine with your statements. Let Sergei and Barnett get in the top 10 if he earns it, but not otherwise.
Don’t paint this as one propaganda warrior against another. I’m more of a UFC fan (and really I can’t even imagine an MMA fan not being primarily a UFC fan these days). I think Cain/Fedor/and Overeem are the top tier HWs, with JDS just behind, though I’m concerned about how JDS will handle a good wrestler (so he could lose to Brock and Carwin, who I do believe were shown not to be as good as advertised). I think by the time the SF tournament is done, there will probably be a couple of guys whose stock falls a lot, as well as a couple whose stock rises a lot. That’s what happens when highly regarded guys are matched against each other. It’s already happened in the UFC because the matchups have been getting made, and it’s about to happen in SF.
I don’t know why they’re saying it’s a fake. Its attached to the Official Strikeforce Insider emails that they sent out, and for the press release too:
http://oi56.tinypic.com/23mmqsk.jpg
This whole argument is kind of ridiculous when you consider that aside from JDS/Werdum from almost three years ago now, not a single guy in the top four of the UFC’s HW division has fought anyone in the top four of Strikeforce’s HW division.
And more importantly, to me, it’s really pathetic when people feel the need to try and discredit guys on either side because competing at the top level of this sport takes an incredible amount of training, ability, and endurance. Sometimes people are going to lose fights and sometimes those losses aren’t going to be five-round battles that could go either way. Sometimes it’s a one-round beat-down ala Cain/Brock and sometimes it’s a 69 second submission ala Werdum/Fedor. Cain killing Brock does not invalidate Brock’s achievements. He was just the better fighter on that night. It’s really that simple. Likewise, Werdum subbing Fedor doesn’t invalidate his achievements. And truthfully, if anyone really believes that it’s completely inconceivable for a top level fighter to get submitted by a Jiu Jitsu black belt in a minute has;
A. No concept or understanding of Jiu Jitsu.
B. Clearly has never actually taken a single class of it in their life.
I’ve seen brown belts choked out in a minute by blue belts. Does that mean he doesn’t deserve to be a brown belt? Of course not.
It’s just really sad to me that people focus so much on the negative rather than the positive. Give Cain his props, he did a great job. Give Werdum his props, he did a great job as well. And let’s look at the bigger picture; Right now we have two heavyweight divisions with a lot of great fighters and, at least for one of them, it appears there’s a reasonable chance that the best of the best are going to get to fight one another. And at the end of the day, people can use all the MMA-math they want and find a million different reasons as to why one group of heavyweights is better than the other, but until we see any of these guys actually fight each other, you’re really just wasting your time focusing on it.
BTW: Has anyone considered that this goofy poster is part of the latest m1/Fedor contract?!