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Nick Lembo talks about the keys to good MMA officiating

By Zach Arnold | January 6, 2011

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The Godfather of New Jersey MMA regulation speaks with Hector Castro of MMA Die Hards.

HECTOR CASTRO: “Now, you’re one of the first states, New Jersey was one of the first states to be very loyal to MMA when it first started several years ago when these states were backing out and New Jersey was very aggressive in staying active with it. Now that, you know, MMA has grown, become obviously a little more bigger of a sport, New Jersey is still very aggressive and a lot of people are arguing now, you know, especially about judging and stuff. I mean, how have you kind of helped the state of New Jersey kind of just control the judging and refereeing of the sport as this sport has progressed?”

NICK LEMBO: “Well, the UFC started in 1993. In 1997 I oversaw my first show for the athletic commission, it was a shoot-fighting event which actually Dan Miragliotta was the promoter. Matt Serra was featured on the card and New Jersey was the first state to pass the Unified Rules, the rules that everybody uses today, and Lou Neglia was the first promoter under the draft Unified Rules to have a show here at the Tropicana in February 2000. We allowed an MMA fight on a kickboxing card. So, we’re lucky to have a lot of experience in the sport and I have great officials that I’m very proud of like Jeff Blatnick, like Dan and Kevin (Mulhall), and then I think the next step in developing officials is not only the training courses but starting them off in your amateur program which we fully regulate in New Jersey and have a very active program and that’s where we’ve developed such officials like one of tonight’s referees, Keith Peterson, who’s already ref’d in the UFC, and judge Michelle Agustin who’s judging tonight. But I think a key thing is there’s only so much training you can do. I believe that you need people that have a good background in the sport. (For a) background I recommend you start in submission grappling and you have to show a pretty fair understanding of jiu-jitsu and muay thai and then we have, you know, pretty good seminars for the wrestling, stand-up, the boxing, and the other components. But you start in New Jersey as a shadow official, which means your scores don’t actually count as a referee but you’re actually scoring and it’s getting collected after each round and then you work your way up from there.”

HECTOR CASTRO: “Now do you think as far as, for a lot of people say that you know wrestling gets a huge advantage over say jiu-jitsu submission for a judge to score a fight. How do you go about that point of view as far as judging a fight? What do you tell your guys to kind of just, you know, how… does a takedown result for more points than a submission attempt?”

NICK LEMBO: “That’s a very general question. What I like to do is show films. I like to show specific fights and talk about, uh, you know, what’s going on in this specific fight. For example, like Matt Hughes and Renato Verissimo from UFC 48, I like to use that fight to show Renato’s using an active threatening guard and that you should be able to score points from the bottom. No one element should be weighted over the other. Effective striking, effective grappling, effective aggression, and Octagon control is what the judges should be looking for with an emphasis on any technique that’s causing domination and damage.”

HECTOR CASTRO: “Do you think that there are calls for other commissions to kind of do more work as far as because I know there are a lot of commissions out there that are not as detailed or as proactive as you guys are here in New Jersey?”

NICK LEMBO: “Ha ha.”

HECTOR CASTRO: “Loaded question.”

NICK LEMBO: “Yeah. We are active with the Association of Boxing Commissions and there’s other commissioners that are very experienced in MMA. Jeff Mullin in Tennessee who was a UFC official for some of the first UFCs back in New Jersey in 2000. Keith Kizer in Nevada, Bernie Profato from Ohio, and Andy Foster from Georgia and we have committees. In fact, we just set up a training course where we accepted and reviewed training courses and six individuals were selected as certified trainers for refereeing and judging training courses across America. But, you know, it’s a very fast growing sport and commissions will come up to speed, it just takes some time that they learn that this is a different sport, you can’t just insert boxing judges. We don’t even have the same doctors, we don’t have the same inspectors, we have a whole separate staff for our non-boxing events.”

Topics: Media, MMA, Zach Arnold | 9 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

9 Responses to “Nick Lembo talks about the keys to good MMA officiating”

  1. Eddie Osabi says:

    A good point raised is that it is absoulety essential that referees and judges have a really good understanding of what is going on. I watched UFC 1 the other day and nobody seemed to have a clue what was happening. LOL

  2. I talked to Nick Lembo about this in great lengths in 2009, and the same policy applied then in New Jersey. Interestingly enough, I contacted Keith Kizer and asked him the same questions, to which I got very short, very brief answers basically saying that they do all of that in Nevada as well. I wasn’t convinced of that.

    Lembo took the time of explaining the entire process, and it seemed like he had his hands heavy into following through with that.

  3. p. says:

    Something I think would go a long way, and it really baffles me how it seems to never come up, is to get rid of the completely arbitrary elements of scoring.

    Shooto and Pancrase, iirc, both have very clearly defined scoring where the rules explicitly state how many points things like positional improvements, submission attempts, takedowns (with AND without gaining dominant position from it) etc. are worth.

    To help with identifying a submission attempt, as it can be hard to tell from ringside whether a lock/technique is “in”, they have the referee declare a “catch” when a technique is in, and a “no catch” if the subject gets out.

    As for the standup, it is also clearly defined what constitutes a 10-10, 10-9, 10-8 and 10-7 round.

    I also believe they have different judges for the stand-up and the ground game, and the scores are then combined for a total score. This might not be necessary, but it can be a way of making sure the judges have a proper understanding of what they are judging.

    I have watched quite a lot of Shooto, and I must say that compared to most other organizations, outright robberies and terrible decisions are rare, even if not non-existent.

    They are also more liberal with declaring draws (if for obvious reasons especially in the 2-round B-class matches), something I personally prefer when fights are close, but does not appeal to everyone.

    I really think making the scoring less arbitrary would do more to combat bad decisions than any other suggestion could do. Combine that with some other suggestions that have been made and we’re golden.

    • 45 Huddle says:

      If those systems were fully applied in America…. MMA would eventually turn into point fighting. It would actually be like amateur wrestling where guys would go after certain moves just to get a “catch” and gain points. It would completely change the dynamic of the sport, and not for the better.

      There can be ZERO points assigned to moves. It’s a downhill slope that does not need to happen.

      • klown says:

        Seems to me that would be a risky tactic in MMA. Going for catches without serious intent to inflict damage or finish your opponent while under fire from strikes is a dangerous proposition.

        • IceMuncher says:

          On the contrary, playing it safe and going for points puts you at less risk than trying for a finish.

  4. Tommy says:

    Good interview, NJ has always been one of the top if not the top combat sport state commissions in the US.

    Other athletic commissions could learn a lot from how NJ run their pro and amateur MMA programs.

    Off the top of my head Ohio also does a really good job with MMA in their state.

  5. Pierre-Luc Allie says:

    It’s time that commission merged so that good commissioner like Lembo are not restricted to a single state. Lembo could easily take care of the mma scene tri-state era. Single promoter and fighter licence for multiple state make sense too.

  6. Juan Abreu says:

    Lembo is a good guy who cares about the fighters and the sport.
    He always tries to help.

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