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Should Fabricio Werdum be ranked as the #1 Heavyweight in MMA?
By Zach Arnold | June 30, 2010
“To be the man, you’ve got to beat the man.” — Ric Flair
Prepare for your head to explode if you actually care about rankings. There’s plenty of discussion of putting Fedor at #3 and having Werdum at #2. I think it’s crazy talk all the way around, but you will hear the arguments repeatedly — especially after the ending of UFC 116.
This passage is from Sherdog radio and it actually started off with someone sending them a snippy e-mail about the MMA media and rankings in that if Matt Serra became ranked #1 after beating GSP and Frankie Edgar became #1 after beating BJ Penn, why doesn’t that apply to Fabricio Werdum? It prompted this passage:
TJ DE SANTIS: “Kevin writes in, he says: Let me begin by admitting that I agree with the winner of Carwin and Brock should be the #1 Heavyweight. BUT… when Matt Serra, a Welterweight that was not even Top 15 at the time, beat Georges St. Pierre, hew as given the #1 spot. Frankie Edgar won a bogus decision against BJ Penn and he was given the #1 spot. How come no one talks about giving Fabricio Werdum the #1 spot? Is this because most do not believe that Fedor was a true #1 or are we now calling this a fluke? Sometimes I just don’t get the MMA media. Signed, Kevin.
“I think you have to argue that Fabricio Werdum should get the #1 spot. You know, Carwin and Brock, maybe because of their records and how they’ve done… you can really make a statement for them being #1. I personally think the winner of Shane Carwin and Brock Lesnar should be #1. However, I don’t think the loser should be #2. I think they have to slip down. I think, I mean, really for me, it’s Carwin or Brock at #1, probably Fabricio Werdum at #2, Fedor Emelianenko at #3 and then the loser of Carwin and Brock at #4. How do you feel about that, Lutfi?”
LUTFI SARIAHMED: “I’m fine with that and I don’t tink there’s really, I mean I understand his e-mail but I don’t think it’s, I don’t really agree either because in each one of those cases that he cites, we’re talking about things that ultimately took place in the UFC. There wasn’t really anything outside of the UFC in the Welterweight division or the Lightweight division that said, OK, if this happened, then there’s somebody else outside that should deserve to take the #1 spot. What happened here is you had Fedor, the only guy outside of the UFC… but he was the #1 ranked guy, all the while there’s still a lot of relevant Heavyweight MMA taking place in the UFC on top of obviously Lesnar and Carwin. So, with Fedor losing to Werdum, you go and you move onto the next best thing and the next best thing after Fedor would be whoever wins Lesnar/Carwin and I think there was that other viable option there. I think he mentions Edgar, he mentions Serra. When Serra beat GSP, there was really no other number #2 guy to give it to. I mean the same thing for Edgar, too. All the action in each of those specific divisions was taking place inside the one promotion. So I think it’s a bit of a different argument than you had here when you had Fedor outside of the UFC and you have Lesnar/Carwin within it.”
And this led to a much larger discussion about rankings and the importance of rankings if you have Top 10 fighters not under the Zuffa umbrella of employment.
TJ DE SANTIS: “In your opinion, who’s the best heavyweight in the world?”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “I don’t understand how if Fedor gets tapped by Werdum, he’s not the same dominant heavyweight he’s always been. He’s got all the same wins, you know, that’s not how rankings work in boxing. If you’re #10 or #11 and you beat #1, you’re not going to be #1. In MMA, that tends to be how it works and to me that stands to reason just as much as any other system because guys lose all the time, I mean all it takes is a more frequent cycle of quality opponents and guys you think are completely elite and apart from the pack turn out to be kind of another name in the fray.”
TJ DE SANTIS: “Right, you can’t be #1 if you just lost.”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “Yeah, I feel that, so I guess it’s… Christ, I don’t know. Brock Lesnar?”
TJ DE SANTIS: “That is the question. Is it Lesnar?”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “Whoever is wearing the UFC belt?”
TJ DE SANTIS: “Is it Lesnar? Is it Carwin? Is it Werdum? Is it the winner of Lesnar/Carwin? I mean… I don’t get caught up.”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “This gets to why I’m not interested in rankings.”
TJ DE SANTIS: “I’m not interested in rankings too much either but rankings is just one of those topics where we do it so basically everyone can bitch about something”
LUTFI SARIAHMED: “This one isn’t hard. Guys, this one isn’t hard, though. It’s the winner of Carwin/Lesnar.”
TJ DE SANTIS: “Right.”
LUTFI SARIAHMED: “We’ve had harder debates. This one isn’t. It’s the winner of Carwin/Lesnar. That’s the #1 heavyweight right now.”
TJ DE SANTIS: “That’s where I lean… but really, I mean…”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “I always thought if you beat #1, you were #1. I thought that’s how the divisional rankings worked. Not pound-for-pound, but divisional.”
LUTFI SARIAHMED: “No, but see, we talked about this before on another e-mail, though, Jack. The other two situations that were brought up were, all right, Frankie Edgar became #1 all of a sudden after he beat BJ Penn and Matt Serra became #1 after he beat GSP. The problem with that one and why those situations are different than this Heavyweight division is that the Welterweight and Lightweight division very much exist only in the UFC in terms of elite competitors, in terms of the best fighters, in terms of the biggest bouts that we’re having and so at the time, when Serra beat GSP, the argument was all right, Serra beat GSP because hey he’s the best guy and on top of that you can’t really make a legitimate argument for a different #2 Welterweight to move up to #1. Same thing for Lightweight. Here, though, we’re talking about the guy, the best guy in the Heavyweight division for a long time was a guy who didn’t fight in the UFC. But there were still very relevant fighters and relevant fighters who were fighting in the UFC the entire time with obviously their own heavyweight division. Now that Fedor’s lost, the next biggest thing or the next guy to step up is the guy who holds the belt in the UFC’s Heavyweight division because that’s where the most relevant action has been taking place. That’s where the biggest fights have been taking place for so long now and I think whoever wins Lesnar/Carwin now would take the spot at #1 now that Fedor’s lost.”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “But that’s saying where the biggest fights take place divorced from the fact that the people in the running for #1 didn’t fight many of the fighters that make that the best division. I mean, both guys beat Frank Mir. That’s it. Shane Carwin beat Gonzaga, you know Lesnar beat Couture. Big wins, make no mistake, but I’m not even sure they were Top 10 wins at the time. They may as well have been. Gonzaga would have been low, you know it’s like… because you’re in the division where there are so many great fighters, to me shouldn’t be the same as fighting those great fighters. Actually interacting with those great fighters and to that degree, Fedor has been fighting from Tim Sylvia to Andrei Arlovski to even to some degree Brett Rogers after he beat Andrei Arlovski, guys just as highly ranked if they had been in the UFC, so what’s the difference?”
TJ DE SANTIS: “You’re almost swaying me to vote for Fabricio Werdum at this point.”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “Well, it’s just, you know, Lutfi counter pointed that you know when guys who traditionally in the rankings at all beat the #1 they became #1 because of it was in the UFC… you know, oh well. This one isn’t. So, it doesn’t mean that you know different standards apply. And, you know, that’s… and this is not me talking about how it ought to be. You’re very rarely hear from me how things ought to be. I’m more interested in the way they are and it sounds to me that’s what should happen here based on what you know what will happen here based on how it’s worked in the past and I don’t even know what the rankings are going to say but it sounds like there’s not much of a distinction.”
TJ DE SANTIS: “I mean #1’s up for the grabs.”
LUTFI SARIAHMED: “The next time I get the rankings right will be the first time, so I mean, I’m just saying.”
TJ DE SANTIS: “There’s no such thing as right in rankings. I mean, unless there’s been a guy like Fedor who’s dominated for seven years, arguably never lost a fight until Saturday night. That’s the right answer. That’s rare, though, in rankings. I mean…. number one is usually pretty decent. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 is where you start to run into problems.”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “Rankings are often to talk about and are such great fodder for discussion.”
TJ DE SANTIS: “I’m over it.”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “Aside from that, because the guys that are in play don’t all work for the same promotion. In boxing, you know, promoters have to come together to make fights. No one works for a boxing promotion. Therefore, you can’t just say well, everyone works for this boxing promotion, so whatever, whoever is the champion of that boxing promotion is the #1 heavyweight in the world. And it’s the same thing with MMA and that’s really where rankings have been such interesting discussion because you had one or two or even three promotions saying, no, this is the best guy at that weight class. You know, men walking around in someone else’s weight class with a belt around their waist. That makes you think, oh really? Eddie Alvarez, oh really? So how does he stack up? Well, let’s rank them. So, the utility of rankings is PRIDE saying they have great heavyweights and UFC saying they have great heavyweights. Same at 205. You’ve got guys that can’t conceivably fight each other but you still need to judge the merits and the quality of opponents they’ve beaten and synthesize them because this is a sport, because this isn’t one stable of fighters and that’s why rankings are interesting and as the industry consolidates more, you might not need them. You might just rankings of top UFC title contenders because who cares how guys from other promotions factor in if they’re worth anything they’d be in the UFC. I think what Lutfi said before points to that as the future and I’m not sure that’s what ranking are for. Rankings are to bring together who at the moment you know it isn’t conceivable to fight each other but still you judge who’s better based on their relevant accomplishments. If they fight each other, of course you know who’s better at least on that night and that’s a whole other issue. But see, that’s why when Fedor loses, I like it because these kinds of talking points just roll right off the tongue.”
Topics: Media, MMA, StrikeForce, UFC, Zach Arnold | 35 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Werdum should be ranked #1 unless you think Fedor’s skills have diminished enough that a win over him doesn’t warrant taking over his ranking.
So in a weird way, it still goes back to how you view Fedor. That’s the way I view rankings. For example, Liddell could have still technically been Top 10 a year ago, but his skills diminished so much that it didn’t warrant it.
“For example, Liddell could have still technically been Top 10 a year ago, but his skills diminished so much that it didn’t warrant it.”
^^
This is a valid and important consideration.
Also applicable to beating Nog these days.
The sherdog rankings seem to skew cain very high apparently because of that win.
Never been a fan of the sherdog rankings.
In fact Rossen and the Fight Finder are the only things holding that shack up IMO.
🙂
BROCK VS FEDOR RECORD COMPARISSON
I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO TELL ME HOW BROCK PASSED FEDOR???
BROCK has one loss (VIA TAP OUT)
FEDOR has one loss (VIA TAP OUT)
BROCK beat Heath Herring via decision
FEDOR beat Heath Herring via TKO.
BROCK beat MIR (MIR IN HIS PRIME) BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT
FEDOR beat CROCOP / NOGUEIRA(2X)(BOTH IN THEIR PRIME)
BROCK beat MIN SOO KIM
FEDOR beat HONG MAN CHOI
BROCK beat RANDY COUTURE (olympic wrestler)
FEDOR beat MATT LINDLAND (olympic wrestler)
+ FEDOR beat 25 OTHER OPPONENTS.
I feel like all this hand-wringing about rankings is pretty much horseshit that comes down “The guy we thought was the best wasn’t the best, so how do we deal with the cognitive dissonance about being wrong, especially since we effectively staked our reputation on running 1,000 fellating stories about the guy.”
The thing Serra, Edgar and Fedor have in common is that their victories ran strongly against the perception of their abilities contrasted against those of the fighters they defeated.
Everyone gets on the internet and posts for years about how BJ, Fedor, GSP or whoever is a step above and unbeatable and blah blah blah, so it’s a tough shock for them when they have to eat two tons of crow
Rankings are just a bunch of bullshit for mma “journalists” to post to give their opinions a sense of legitimacy since what happens in the ring almost always exposes them as really understanding jack shit about the sport
PS: Rankings also let them deceive their readers in general about where the talent is in the world. If you just watch the fights and don’t take any of that stuff in, no one in their right mind would’ve been crowing about how Robbie Lawler was a top 5 middle weight blah blah blah. Major news sources like Sherdog are butthurt about the treatment they get from UFC, and it obviously rankles them and permeates their rankings and coverage in general
Hmmm, seems to me that rankings are and probably should be political.
If you really rank guys from your perception of their talents, everybody will have a different one like buttholes and opinions.
And as long as their based on actual merits and not just how cute they are, they’re arguably all just as legitimate.
“Prepare for your head to explode if you actually care about rankings.”
Name one ranking that uses a consistent criteria for what constitutes merit.
That’s easy: victories over ranked opponents.
Yes, but who ranked the opponents? YOu see how this goes pear-shaped quickly?
Yes Werdum should be considered the #1 heavyweight until proven otherwise. He did not just beat a fading Fedor, he stopped him in seconds. The gameplan was brilliant. This was true jiu-jitsu in the original meaning of the word. I wouldn’t say that whoever beats him next necessarily inherits the position, though.
If I consider the cumulative time spent in combat b/w the pair of Fedor-Werdum and Carwin-Lesnar, it makes me wonder which fight really decides the top fighter in the division. One is a fight between two tested martial artists and the other b/w two super-athletes.
“True jiu-jitsu” and a “brilliant” gameplan now consists of getting knocked on your ass 10 seconds into the fight?
This was more a case of Fedor making a mistake than Werdum gameplanning well. However, his BJJ skills were awesomely sharp to take advantage of it.
I just saw the Sherdog heavyweight rankings, and yes, They put Brock Lesnar at number one, Fabricio Werdum at two, and Fedor at three. I could agree with Fedor being dropped to three. But Werdum should be number one, and Lesnar still at two. I’m not being pro Fedor, pro Werdum, anti-Lesnar, anti-UFC or anything like that. I’m being as objective as possible. And people bash Fedor for not fighting “top talent” (Sylvia, Arlovski, and Rogers were top ten fighters when Fedor beat them), but Lesnar hasn’t fought in almost a year. So what’s the difference? And being sick doesn’t count in this argument. The top three should be 1.) Werdum, 2.)Lesnar, and 3.)Fedor.
http://www.mmaroot.com/fabricio-werdum-vs-junior-dos-santos-ufc-90-video/
Clearly Junior Dos Santos should be considered the #1 heavyweight. He didn’t just beat Werdum, he stopped him in seconds. The gameplan was brilliant.
Or do fights from eighteen months ago not count? If we’re only counting recent fights, then who has Fedor beaten in the last 18 months to deserve a top-five ranking? But if we’re counting older fights, then remember that Fedor beat Arlovski who beat Werdum who beat Fedor. What do you do with that?
This is why rankings are silly. But if you’re going to do them, there’s not really a better way than just trying to sort them by “I think fighter N would beat fighter N+1 if they fought today.”
Rankings ARE silly, but you have to realize, wins aren’t retroactive. Dos Santos’ win over Werdum doesn’t really factor into how you rate Werdum’s win over Fedor. It is very common for fighters to rise to the top after suffering losses earlier in their career (see: Klitschko, Wladimir). If you’re penalizing Werdum for the Dos Santos loss, do you also penalize Dos Santos for the Ferriera loss? Would Hae Joon Yang aka Korean Fedor be above all of them for knocking Ferreira out in 10 seconds and still being undefeated?
Werdum is unquestionably the #1 in the world. Even if you go beyond the simplicity of “beat the man to be the man”, Werdum possesses by far the best hitlist of wins over top heavyweights, and he has consistently taken tough fights his entire career. So it is very ironic that Werdum is now being discredited and marginalized when he exceeds all the criteria for being a #1 that the Fedor critics gripe about (while Lesnar and Carwin do not).
“Wins aren’t retroactive”
How do you explain Mir’s miracle ranking, that’s whether admitted or not based off beating Lesnar (who’s ranking skyrockets based off his rematch win over Mir)?
I also like the future losses pulling down the value of a previous win (Nog/Cro Cop “were exposed” yet it’s used as justification to up the ranking of Mir/Cain & JDS/GG but somehow in peoples minds decreases it’s previous worth to Fedor’s ranking). Sure I can see the value in the win dissipating – e.g. beating Heath Herring in 2003 when he was top 10 means less and less, but it should probably mean more than beating a current Heath Herring.
Also – don’t forget to check out world famous Mmalogic’s MMA/google algorithm (*cough*MMAth*cough). http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/6/29/1542916/how-google-would-rank-mma-fighters
Apparently, on top of running his interwebz success, this guy now not only makes millions day-trading and of course advising Zuffa/DW for big retainers, but he solved the google algorithm! Hilarity 🙂
Lesnar and Mir beat each other to the top, similarly to Arlovski and Sylvia in their day. When fighters are ranked based on belts and the amount of TV/PPV exposure they get, those things happen. For what it is worth, I always thought Mir was mediocre and his late career resurgence is more a testament to UFC’s resourcefulness than his fighting ability. Werdum, Fedor and Bigfoot would all crush him.
My personal favorite rankings quirk: Gomi losing to Florian proves he is no longer a relevant MMA fighter and puts him in the #12-20 range if not worse. Florian’s win over Gomi proves he is super elite and vaults him past fighters like Eddie Alvarez and Gilbert Melendez to be #2 or #3. HUH?
Mir’s ranking should be based on the win over Noguiera, which meant something then.
Alan is correct. Mir 2.0 entered the rankings after outstriking Nogueira, the #2 Heavyweight at the time, and finishing him on the ground.
Lesnar entered the rankings for beating Couture, who had dominated Sylvia for the belt in his comeback to the UFC. Lesnar jumped to #2 after avenging his loss to Mir at UFC 100.
As for Werdum, he is the clearly the #1 HW in the world.
It’s simple, rewind back to the point where the top 2 heavyweights in the world were Fedor and Big Nog, at a time when the UFC’s top dog was Tim Sylvia. Just starting with Fedor in first place and Nogueira in the second, adding fighters to the list as they unseat our original two fighters, you get the following list:
1. Werdum
2. Emilianenko
3. Lesnar
4. Carwin
5. Mir
6. Velasqez
7. Nogueira
Werdum beat the champion so he is the champion, very simple logic. The only reason this is being debated is because Werdum is not popular and most importantly he isn’t in the UFC.
This is how I approach it.
Or, maybe it was because he was 2-2 in the UFC.
Werdum should not be ranked number 1. People who bring up Edgar being ranked number 1 forget that a LOT of people thought that Aoki should be ranked number 1 if he beat Melendez (which he did not).
Automatically being ranked number 1 after beating the champ only works when there is nobody who makes a strong argument for their own number 1 spot. Nobody else made that argument after Serra beat GSP: GSP had recently thrashed Hughes, and nobody else was really in the discussion. Lesnar’s last two fights were wins over fighters generally ranked in the top 5. If he beats Carwin, that will be three top five wins in a row.
Meanwhile, if Carwin wins, its only the second top ten fighter he’s faced, and both of them have pretty big question marks as far as whether or not they legitimately still belong near the top of the division is concerned.
Pretty sure Gonzaga was a top 10 win at the time of their fight.
But he lost to crappy ol’ Werdum…twice…and Werdum was 2-2 in the UFC dontcha’know?
Am I Canadian now?
Who said he is crappy?
Rankings can get wacky. Even Ring Magazine, who (very literally) INVENTED the ranking system in 1922, has very questionable ranking movements recently. After Bernard Hopkins (who is in the lightheavyweight rankings AND the pound for pound rankings) beat (as in won) Roy Jones (who was out of the rankings at the time, and still is), Ring Magazine DE-ranked Hopkins at light heavyweight and kicked him out of the lb-4-lb rankings. He’s still ranked at light heavyweight, but they put him from number two to four, and kicked him out of the lb-4-lb as I said.
And, even more recently, they ranked Troy Ross (cruiserweight) up from 6 to 4 after LOSING to Steve Cunningham (number one at cruiserweight, and has been for quite some time). Their justification is that there was controversy in the fight. What happened was that the first three rounds of the fight was VERY competitive and could have went either way. Then Ross got cut after an accidental thumb to the eye from Cunningham, and Cunningham won by TKO in the fifth because of the cut. Very shitty, I agree. But it still stands; Cunningham won. Except for possibly a draw (and that’s a HUGE if) or to fill a vacancy in and empty ranking slot, you can’t go UP in rankings after a non-win (in this case a loss). It should be changed to a no contest (or see what the scorecards were and judge the victor on that if they were using the unified rules).
Rankings should be cold, hard fact. Not what you think in your heart. Ring Magazine should know that better than anyone.
Doesn’t ring still have Donaire in their top 10 PFP? They really have been dropping the ball lately…
Yup, Nonito Donaire is still there. At number FOUR no less. Here is the top ten PFP by Ring;
1.)Manny Pacquiao
2.)Floyd Mayweather
3.)Juan Manuel Marquez
4.)Nonito Donaire
5.)Shane Mosley
6.)Chad Dawson
7.)Paul Williams
8.)Sergio Martinez
9.)Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
10.)Celestino Caballero
To be fair to Donaire, he is still winning all of his fights, but he does not fight top guys AT ALL. Worse track record than Fedor, that’s for DAMN sure.
Wow, I hadn’t checked those in a while. I’m not surprised that I agree with only about 50% of it….
Andre Ward is will be there soon!!!
I’m suprised this is even an issue.
Werdum just beat the consensus number one guy and has another solid win against Silva in his previous fight. Lesnar hasn’t fought in a year and even then has only beat 2 top 10 guys in his entire career. Werdum should surely be number one until the Carwin Lesnar fight at the very least.
Still, i guess it kind of makes sense. A lot of people have been chomping at the bit to crown Lesnar as the best HW in the universe so i guess this was their chance.
I would say this after some thoughts over moving two tons of crap into MY NEW HOUSE!!! the last couple days.
The rankings right now should be:
1. Werdum
2. Brock
3. Fedor
4. Carwin
After the Lesnar Carwin fight:
1. Winner
2. Werdum
3. Fedor
4. Cain
5. Loser…
-Lesnar has very few wins but he doesn have two wins over top 5 opponents
-Werdum has the best list right now(IMO), but after the two guys fight each other on Saturday they will surpass him
– If Werdum is #1 and he loses to Brett Rogers(Because of injuries to other fighters or extenuating circumstances…) would Brett Rogers be #1? Legitimate question, not meant to start argument.
-Mir’s win over Lesnar did not propel him into rankings. His win over Big Nog did that.
Oh, and Fedor should definately still be PFP top 5 at least. How you drop him completely from the top 10, and still have Machida there baffles the mind…
I agree here. One loss does not make as big a change in the P4P rankings, or at least shouldn’t. Case in point is in fact Machida.
In a division where the pecking order has been thoroughly established, beating the #1 guy makes you #1. However, when there is serious contention over who is #1 (ie the #1 guy never fought the #2-5 guys), then you have to judge them by their recent resumes. That’s what they have to do in football/basketball/etc when all the top teams haven’t played each other yet. The Lions don’t become #1 when they upset the Colts.
When you look at it like that, Carwin is arguably #1 right now. He finished a then #3 (current #7) Mir, #10-15 Gonzaga, and most importantly, he hasn’t lost in the last 2 years. Admittedly, it’s thin, but so is the current resume of everyone else in the division. Werdum’s best win is (maybe) better and he also beat Gonzaga, but he lost to JDS and AA. Fedor lost recently (if you haven’t heard) and the only win that is still ranked in the top 10 is Big Nog. Lesnar is up there in the top 3 with 2 big wins, but he has a loss not too long ago and hasn’t fought in a long time. Cain and JDS don’t have the quality wins yet.
My current would go
1 – Carwin
2 – Lesnar
3 – Werdum
4 – Fedor
5 – Cain
6 – JDS
7 – Mir
8 – Overeem
9 – Nog
10 – A. Silva
In any case, in two days we’ll have a consensus #1.