« Talk Radio: Rating Chael Sonnen’s chances versus Anderson Silva and how a Silva/GSP fight in UFC would be different | Home | Talk Radio: Should the UFC have booked the rematch between Kimbo Slice & Seth Petruzelli? »
Talk Radio: Fedor really shouldn’t be at the top of pound-for-pound lists
By Zach Arnold | June 10, 2010
From Pro MMA’s 100th show earlier this week, Larry Pepe had a debate with Jesee Holland of MMAMania.com who made the absurd charge that people are ranking Ray Mercer in MMA rankings lists.
Nevertheless, they stumbled into a debate about pound-for-pound lists and who should be on them and how someone makes a determination as to who goes in what rankings slot.
We know what Dana White thinks about Fedor Emelianenko and who he has in his pound-for-pound list:
“Yeah, I would say Anderson (Silva)…. Georges (St. Pierre)…. I’d have to put BJ (Penn) in there… BJ is definitely in the Top 5. Frankie Edgar and (Jose) Aldo. I’d make those guys probably the top five pound-for-pound.”
A key question in the discussion about Fedor in pound-for-pound lists — is he ranked high because he’s still the best or is he ranked high because it’s kind of a “career lifetime” award?
LARRY PEPE: “So Jesse, you’re in a position to rank fighters because I know you contribute to some rankings and when you say they don’t know how (to rank), define pound-for-pound in your eyes and how you go about ranking a fighter.”
JESSE HOLLAND: “”Well, pound-for-pound is a tricky business and it’s really a ranking system that I try to stay away from because it’s very difficult you know to qualify a fighter as you know pound-for-pound because if you said to me if Fedor Emelianenko weighed 155 pounds and had the same exact skill set, would he be able to defeat BJ Penn in that weight class? I mean, conversely, if BJ Penn’s natural weight was 250, would he be able to perform as well in the Heavyweight division? Well, that’s an impossible thing to figure out, I mean it’s kind of looking at you know instead of pound-for-pound it should be skill-for-skill, who is the best striker? Who is the best wrestler? These are things that really don’t carry across divisions. Like part of the thing that I think makes Fedor successful is that he’s able to do the things he does at Heavyweight because he’s a small Heavyweight. He’s fast, he’s got great grappling, you know, I don’t know if he would be able to get away with those things at Light Heavyweight and I don’t know if he’d be able to get away at those things at Welterweight where everyone is within the same 10 pounds. In Heavyweight you have such a huge disparity, you go from 205 to 265. Fights like that give him an advantage. Would he have that advantage in other weight classes? I don’t know. So I try to focus on, you know, who is in the Top 10 in each individual weight class. Pound-for-pound is something that I stay away from because it’s just impossible to improve and it just leads to a big argument among everybody and I try to look at quality of opposition. Who have they been fighting? How frequently do they fight?
“I see a lot of people on these rankings like Ray Mercer is ranked in the Heavyweight division. I mean, c’mon. Ray Mercer? I mean, give me a break here. And guys like that and it’s just… it’s a very difficult thing to approach because really it’s hard to look at something like that objectively when everybody has, you know, such a passion for their favorite fighter and I think that’s where we get into trouble.”
LARRY PEPE: “Yeah, see I look at pound-for-pound like I try to look at it in relationship to your weight class. Like, you know, how dominant are you at your weight versus another guy at his weight and quality of competition comes into that as well. But that’s kind of what makes the pound-for-pound debate interesting and sometimes fun because everyone has their own kind of idea of what goes into that, just like you say for Fedor it might be an advantage that he’s the smaller guy at Heavyweight because of speed and so on. Somebody else could rank him higher because he’s lighter and he’s fighting guys who are bigger than him. You know, when you bring up that issue of quality of competition, you know that’s why Fedor is not in my Top 3 because I feel like even though he’s got a stellar record, for me it’s Anderson (Silva), (Jose) Aldo, and GSP. I have Aldo second because I think he’s that dominant in his division. I think he can also fight at 35 and 55. But that’s a story for another day. I think it’s interesting though that people who put Fedor first and don’t address the quality of competition issue, I always hear them say, ‘Well he’s 31-1 and the one loss was a questionable decision on a cut’ and so on and so forth. To me that speaks more to career than pound-for-pound today. Like, I recognize, I don’t believe there’s a better basketball player who’s ever played in the NBA than Michael Jordan. I also don’t think he’d in the Top 10 or 20 if he was playing today because today’s today. And that’s kind of how I see Fedor. I see him in the Top 10, but I see it more as a career body of work as opposed to best pound-for-pound right now.”
Topics: Media, MMA, Zach Arnold | 42 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Maybe this is trollish of me, but for everyone that gets all uppity over Fedor being in the p4p talk – I’m not really sure why Anderson Silva gets an almost universal acceptance in the discussion.
He’s dominated a really, really weak division against a majority of challengers that just aren’t that good all else being equal. IMO if you normalized all of his opponents against every other fighter’s opponents in the discussion he’s gotta be near the bottom of the heap.
Pound for pound lists are pointless.
Agreed.
I’ll argue all day about where Fedor ranks in relation to other heavyweights, but arguing where he ranks in relation to guys like Jose Aldo, GSP, and Anderson Silva just seems silly.
What 45 Huddle said is EXACTLY the TRUTH.
He and I could spend twenty years debating whether or not Fedor is top P4P or not, but in the end, P4P rankings are more useless and worthless than regular rankings, and do not matter at all in any way, shape, or form.
P4P lists get bizarrely into the theoretical.
The entire concept is based on a ‘what-if’.
What if (insert name of guy who is small) was big enough that the size advantage of the HW champ wasn’t a negative against him. Would he win?
As if you were going to put Manny Paq or Floyd or BJ or GSP in a transmorgrification machine and spit out a 6’4″ 230lb version of them to fight the Klitschkos, Fedor and Brock.
But obviously if you made a giant version of a smaller guy it would effect speed, etc.
What is P4P really? Who is the best overall right now based on technique and wins. But the guys are all in different weight classes against different types of fighters. Then you get caught in the whole styles make fights things.
Pound for Pound is just silly overall.
I think it’s fair for people to say Manny is the best boxer in boxing today or that Anderson Silva is the best in MMA if they want. But a lot of times it just becomes a ranking of the various champs. I don’t think BJ is anywhere near the best fighter in the world right now. But then again, I also don’t think Fedor deserves the top spot right now either.
I’m pound for pound one of the best posters here.
Anyone want to debate this? I’m in the top 15-20 for sure.
I’m easily in the top 5 baby!
Pound-for-pound lists are useless, but they are kind of fun to look at and debate. It’s easy to say the absolute best fighter (one fighter) is THE p-4-p best fighter. But to do more than that? That’s pretty damn hard. here are the p-4-p rankings by Ring Magazine right now, up to date;
1.) Manny Pacquiao
2.) Floyd Mayweather
3.) Juan Manuel Marquez
4.) Nonito Donaire
5.) Shane Mosley
6.) Chad Dawson
7.) Paul Williams
8.) Sergio Martinez
9.) Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
10.) Celestino Caballero
Anyone want to dispute any of those? I would. Mosley should be off of it because he lost his last fight (to Mayweather) and his last fight before that he won over Antonio Margarito, and that was January 2009 (a year and a half ago). Marquez should be lowered to nine at best becuase he last fought September 2009 with a win over Mayweather. His last win was over Juan Diaz February 2009 (which got fight of the year by Ring Magazine). Nonito Donaire still wins all of his fights, still fights at a rather decent rate (about twice a year) but he doesn’t fight many great, or even top ten in his weight class, fighters. But his next fight is next month against Hernan (not a typo) Marquez, who is a damn good fighter, so he still belongs on the p-4-p list, but not as high as four. Maybe seven or eight? Everyone else is fine where they are at I would say. Especially Paul Williams who fights across THREE weight classes! You can’t get much more p-4-p than that!
So if you go by how I would set up those p-4-p rankings, and get rid of Mosley, who do you replace him with? Wladimir Klitschko? He fights the best of the best at heavyweight for the most part. Lucian Bute? He’s pretty much the best super middleweight out there, and he isn’t even in the super six classic! Timothy Bradley? He’s as good a choice as any. Fernando Montiel? Ivan Calderon? Personally my choice would be either Timothy Bradley or Ivan Calderon.
Zach asked “A key question in the discussion about Fedor in pound-for-pound lists — is he ranked high because he’s still the best or is he ranked high because it’s kind of a “career lifetime” award?”
Both
Also if they are basing the p4p on quality of opposition then Anderson shouldn’t be in the discussion for #1.
*ding*ding*ding*
Anderson Silva is someone that could if he really wanted to fight at LHW or HW. But he fights at MW, the weakest division in mma (or in the least the UFC) and has faced middle of the road to horrible quality of opposition.
People shit on Fedor but a normalized comparison of their opponents makes it not even close.
You’re not even close.
Fedor’s biggest wins: Cro Cop, Big Nog. Anderson’s biggest wins: Franklin, Hendo….
Not worth arguing.
Cro Cop, Nog, Arlovski, Sylvia were all top 5-10 at the time. And if you want to look at other “legit” opponents, there’s a laundry list of those too.
Silva has Franklin and Hendo, that’s for sure…but after that it falls off a steep, steep cliff.
Not to mention Franklin’s status as a top flight middleweight is completely built off beating the same scrubs that Silva is currently sleepwalking through (Stout, Shamrock, Rivera, Quarry, Crow, Dewees) – objectively viewed Franklin’s biggest scalp BY FAR is a past his prime Silva.
That’s not to take away from Franklin, that’s just the level of competition at middleweight…but put up the opponents of Fedor vs. Silva, side-by-side and it’s not even close…it’s a laugh.
Falls off a steep cliff? Marquardt is one of the greatest MWs of all time, and Griffin was considered top 5 LHW when Anderson crushed him.
Its a laugh? Seriously? Maybe if you look at career competition. If you’re looking at the past 5 years, its a laugh in the other direction.
I said competition side-by-side, thought it was pretty obvious I meant career…but apologies for ambiguity.
Forrest is going to be equivalent to one of the guys that’s on Fedor’s list that everyone looks at now and goes “oh well he was way overrated, look at him now.” IMO He’s going to rank on the level of Fedor’s drubbing of Heath Herring – who at the time was considered one of the best HW’s in the world and got slaughtered.
Career is alot closer than you guys think too.
You know the first guy who beat “mach” sakurai: Anderson Silva.
The guy also holds wins over Lee Murray, Jeremy Horn, and knocks people out with inverted back elbows.
Ok, the last part really doesn’t matter, but you get my point.
Alright, I know I am getting baited here but, huh? Come again?
“Also if they are basing the p4p on quality of opposition then Anderson shouldn’t be in the discussion for #1.”
Anderson Silva: KOd #1 MW in world in Rich Franklin, submitted fringe top 15er in Lutter, KOd top 5 contender Marquardt, KOd top 3 contender Franklin, Submitted top 3 guy in Henderson, KOd 205er Irvin, Beat top ten guy in Cote, Beat top ten guy in Leites, KOd top 5 205er Griffin, Beat top 6 or 7 guy in Maia.
Now, at the risk of starting another argument, to me that is the best run in our young sport’s history. Better than Fedor from 02-06 IMO.
These guys aren’t “top whatever” p4p, these are “top whatever” of MW…arguably the weakest division in the sport.
– Franklin built his rep off beating up on an even thinner division than Silva rules now.
– Lutter, Leites and Cote are some of the most f*ckin’ terrible title challengers in UFC history.
– Marquardt is a pretty solid fighter but he’s so overrated it hurts.
– James Irvin belongs on the middle of a strikeforce card…well probably challenging Cung Le…but I digress.
– Can’t say much bad about Griffin or Maia, other than Maia’s clearly one of the most 1-dimensional modern mma fighters around.
I’m certain I need to take a step back on my stance with Nate.
He’s a really good MW…calling him so overrated it hurts is one of the dumber things I’ve said on here in a while.
You could be on ESPN
P4P lists are definitely ridiculous and pointless, but fun too.
Heavyweight is by far a shittier division at least you could name 20 decent Middleweights.
Care to go through those 20 decent middleweights?
Personally, p-4-p MMA fighter out there for me is GSP. Jose Aldo isn’t quite there yet, but he should be top three or so. Of course Fedor is up there. And Anderson Silva should be in the middle or lower rung of the p-4-p list.
Anderson Silva, Rich Franklin, Dan Henderson, Nate Marquardt, Demian Maia, Chael Sonnen, Thales Leites, Alessio Sakara, Dan Miller, Michael Bisping, Kazuo Misaki, Jorge Santiago, Robbie Lawler, Jake Shields, Yoshihiro Akiyama, Alan Belcher, Patrick Cote, Kendall Grove, Mark Munoz, Trevor Prangley… not hard.
Is Alessio Sakara really a step up in class of fighter from Pedro Rizzo or Andrei Arlovski? I mean, honestly, the fact that he’s anywhere near the top 20 of middleweight isn’t really a ringing endorsement of the weight class. Dude got demolished by Houston Alexander and Drew McFedries.
You’re comparing sakara to Pedro Rizzo, Pedro Rizzo has been passed his prime for years? Arlovski would be very similar to Sakara.
The guy has done nothing but improve over the course of his career(especially the last two years) and he fought Thales Leites tooth and nail a couple fights ago, and no matter what anyone says Thales Leites is a top 15 talent guy.
And also I named 20 “decent” MWs off the top of my head. That has nothing to do with my top 20.
Arlovski is a former world champion. He’s been KOed, but never by lousy gatekeepers as has Sakara.
I’m sorry, that list does nothing to make me believe 185 is strong. Lots of failed guys from other weight classes, aging journeymen, and gatekeepers. Its just a weak, weak division.
Arlovski is a former world champion for the same reason Sylvia is a former world champion …. the UFC’s HW division was AWFUL from 2000-2006.
When guys like Justin Eilers and Paul Buentello are fighting for the title, it is time to admit that your HW division sucks something fierce.
On no you didn’t!
He has never lost (cut on illegal elbow early in career is his “loss”).
He dismantled Sylvia, Arlovski, and Rodgers, in succession–his last 3 fights. What other heavyweight has a more impressive 3 fight winning streak?
Answer–none.
He creamed a prime Nogueria–at the time, believed to be the best. Fedor did it–twice.
You may argue he isn’t number 1 PFP, but he’s certainly the greatest fighter of all time, and he is certainly VERY high on the PFP list–even now.
To me the pound-for-pound list is simply ranking the fighters sport-wide. The whole “who would win if they were the same weight” thing is irrelevant imo. It should just be about ranking the sport and it’s fighters as a whole.
So as an undefeated fighter, who never lost his world title and who has fought a lot of great guys, Fedor is definitely one of the best in the sport. Hence, he should be on that list.
The criteria should basically be “who is the most impressive/who is doing the best?” regardless of what weight class they’re in.
He’s a LHW by UFC standards to boot.
I agree with Rob about Fedor being the best; I would probably put BJ above everyone else, with Anderson, GSP, Shogun, and Aldo right there too.
For the GSP fanboys who hate BJ for complaining about their hero being a cheater, I thought BJ clearly won the fight against Edgar even though it was obvious he was nowhere near 100%.
People who have GSP above BJ on p4p lists are basing it off of GSP’s cheating win over BJ, and dont seem to understand the concept of POUND for POUND (with emphasis on pound). GSP walks around 25 pounds heavier than BJ, which is about the difference between Anderson and GSP. If GSP can beat Anderson, then I will say he can legitimately claim to be #1 overall, but not until then.
“are basing it off of GSP’s cheating win over BJ”
And you expect people to listen to what you say?
Fun fact: Fedor has only fought two fighters in his career who are currently ranked in the top 10 in their divisions. Two. Nogueira and Rogers, and Rogers is borderline right now.
Any argument for Fedor as #1 p4p (or #2 p4p, or #3) is based on his dominance over the past, not the present. GSP has NINE wins over fighters arguably ranked in the top 10 in their division.
I honestly don’t think Fedor should be 1 or 2, my main point is that people want to shit on him but totally turn off their brain when talking about Silva…I think Silva goes below him…I mean hey, I guesssss he has some more “top 10” guys(?) but again, normalized against everyone else’s competition, they don’t match up.
Nine? I went to Sherdog, looked at the top ten at both lightweight and welterweight, and counted five fighters CURRENTLY in the top ten. Counting their other contenders sections in both weight classes the total number goes up to seven. It’s still a lot, but it’s not nine. What rankings did you go by?
And if you want to count the other contenders section, then the amount of borderline top ten heavyweights Fedor beat would be three, that other one being Andrei Arlovski. GSP has more, for sure, but your number were a little off, and unfair to Fedor. Oh, and Fedor is fighting Fabricio Werdum in a couple of weeks, so that number will be at four soon enough.
Two wins over Penn, two over Hughes, one over Alves, one over Fitch, one over Hardy, one over Koscheck, one over Serra. Serra is the only one who probably isn’t top ten. Ignore Sherdog’s crappy rankings, they have Mike Swick in the top ten.
To talk about the current rankings of his former opponents is somewhat disingenuous. You can say the exact same thing about BJ Penn.
The same people don’t always stay at the top, including many fighter’s opponents. Which is why it’s all the more impressive that guys like Fedor still are on top, even after all this time.
But SixT-4, many of Penn’s top-10 ranked opponents are guys he has lost to.
The reason current ranking is relevant is because the sport is evolving. If fighters are falling out of relevance, in some cases its because they got old and busted, but in other cases its because the sport has simply passed them by. Thats why its relevant that GSP, Anderson, Penn, and other fighters are fighting the guys who are top fighters now: because that signals that those fighters are beating the best fighters in MMA history. Fedor has not fought the modern cream of the HW crop, which should rightly call into question his ranking as the best right now.
Where guys are ranked currently is irrelevant. Where they were ranked at the time they fought is what really matters.
Only when talking about career rankings.
>What is P4P really? Who is the best overall right now based on technique and wins. But the guys are all in different weight classes against different types of fighters. Then you get caught in the whole styles make fights things.Pound for Pound is just silly overall.
I’m with this poster. P4P is nonsense and should not be discussed seriously.
MW is extremely weak. So weak in fact, that after the Maia fight I made a joke that Sakara would soon be in line for a title shot.
Shortly after that, he was booked for a match with Marquardt (now cancelled), which hypothetically could have left him 2 wins away from a title shot.