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The motivations behind UFC’s move to sign James Toney
By Zach Arnold | March 4, 2010
Two articles that you should read on the subject. The first one talks about the shotgun marriage between UFC and Toney. Regarding the end-game here for both parties:
“White was quoted by Yahoo Sports writer Kevin Iole as saying that he had been told that Strikeforce was negotiating with Toney for a fight against Herschel Walker. No matter how many times White buries Showtime and Strikeforce as minor-league MMA promoters, the natural reflexive motion for UFC is to try to stop whatever Strikeforce is attempting to do. Call it the Vince McMahon business principle of paranoia.
If Toney was indeed negotiating with Strikeforce, suddenly he found leverage to get UFC to allow him to box while booking him in MMA fights. The alleged contract between the two parties is a five-fight deal. Most people understand that if Toney does not succeed in MMA that he will get cut by Zuffa after a couple of fights. However, if Toney somehow manages to not look bad in the cage, then Zuffa will be able to book him relatively cheaply.”
Ironically, as I linked to that first article, a quote appeared on the MMA Memories site:
“But look, at the moment, this thing we have is still really pure. It’s not all fucking dirty like boxing. I know that day is coming. And when it does, I’m gone. “- Dana White
The second article has quotes from Dave Meltzer about why White was motivated to sign Toney and how Strikeforce is considering a move to the 4/24 date instead:
“Strikeforce was negotiating or at least Dana (White) was under the impression that Strikeforce was negotiating a Herschel Walker/James Toney fight for CBS most likely, perhaps for PPV. And so he decided that I will outbid them and ruin that fight. So I think that’s what that’s all about because the key to me is that they’re letting [Toney] box. I mean, like if [UFC] had any you know thoughts that this guy was really valuable to them, they weren’t going to sign him to a non-exclusive contract. They’ve never signed anyone to a non-exclusive contract and they signed him to a non-exclusive contract.”
I encourage you to read both articles for the full quotes and context.
Regarding Toney’s health heading into the cage, Alan Conceicao notes that the Kimbo Slice/Matt Mitrione fight has been yanked from UFC’s web site. That fight was set for 5/8 in Montreal. A signal of Kimbo vs. Toney on 5/8 in Montreal? In actuality, Toney will be able to fight wherever he wants geographically-speaking because UFC is promoting him and none of the state athletic commissions is going to put up much of a fuss about it.
Which, of course, doesn’t excuse what Alan points out here:
The last time James Toney won a major title in boxing that wasn’t stripped from him a few days later for a positive steroids test was 2003. Toney started boxing and just over the MMA lightweight limit. Toney has been out of shape and chasing paydays for years, showing zero regard for his own performances in his own given sport. Toney hasn’t won a deserved decision in boxing (outside his fight with the scrubby Matt Greer) since 2005. James Toney was on ESPN Outside the Lines on January 21, 2007, where he essentially admitted that he was using hormone therapy (the reason he tested positive for roids against Ruiz) because repeated traumatic brain injury had led to Hormone Deficiency Syndrome.
Toney is no longer a top 50 heavyweight, has brain damage, doesn’t train, has pointed guns at his managers, torn up gyms, assaulted numerous people, and abuses steroids. In short, this is a freak show, every bit the freak show Mercer/Sylvia was. At least in that case, Mercer was a legitimate heavyweight.
Toney sounds like he’s a perfect fit to pass the standards of Keith Kizer’s administration in Nevada. If Evander “Evan Fields” Holyfield can make it…
Topics: Boxing, Media, MMA, StrikeForce, UFC, WEC, Zach Arnold | 25 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Alan’s quoted portion of this article is spot on.
Kimbo vs. Mitrione was never listed on ufc.com
I swear to God as soon as they announce Toney versus Kimbo I never ever want to hear any “Japanese booking is a joke!” from the UFC fans. I’m not saying they support it, but the “DANA SAVES THE SANCTITY OF THE SPORT~!” B.S. is out the window.
Even in 2010 Toney might just be in the top 50 of boxing’s shallowest division. Sad to say he is definitely top 50 in the US. Boxrec has him at 34 in the world. But that doesn’t really change anything of substance in Alan’s comment.
I hope White knows what he is doing. Toney is short, fat and a loudmouth. There is definitely an audience that will tune in to see how he does in MMA. This audience won’t be impressed if MMA fighters beat him by laying on him for fifteen minutes. On the other hand this audience will bury MMA if Toney defeats anyone with a pulse.
Yeah, he probably is in the top 50. Too much experience and ring savvy.
They just need to get Toney on a card ASAP, get him beat and then move on. The longer that Toney’s on the roster, the better the odds get that he’ll do something that will reflect very poorly on anyone associated with him.
You mean something worse than calling MMA “death fights”? I could see putting up with some n00b acting like an idiot if we’re talking about Mike Tyson level starpower. But he’s going to be more harm than good IMO.
I look forward to seeing justifications for the commission passing any fight Toney is put in with one of the current UFC HW’s…what a joke.
[…] allow him to box, had a lot to do with Strikeforce trying to sign him to fight Herschel Walker.Via Fight Opinion: “Strikeforce was negotiating or at least Dana (White) was under the impression that Strikeforce […]
Come on, the Gaijin. Have you seen some of the crap that infests the lower echelons of the HW division? There are some fighters that couldn’t punch their way out of a wet paper bag, compared to the average boxer.
The bar for the division just got markedly lower.
He’s never trained MMA in his life. Shit, he can’t even be bothered to train for his current profession…that should tell you a lot. And it’s not like he’s some developmental, undercard talent – he’ll be on the marquee for an event. He’s a washed-up, brain damaged, grossly out of shape and over the hill “fighter” who has gotten so bad the sport he’s supposed “skilled” in, can’t even find him a joke fight worth his while. Now he’s signed to fight in the premiere mma organization and there’s zero justification for it.
What’s it prove? (This is clearly the spin) That skilled mma fighters in their prime can take out an over the hill, phyiscally and mentally deteriorated boxer who’s last good performance was 7 years ago and has never trained mma in his life? It’s total stunt, knee-jerk booking and it’s a fucking farce.
I don’t think Toney is a good signing.
I also don’t think people should be comparing Toney to Walker. One had no combat experience that other is at least a former world champion boxer.
Either way, I could care less about. Toney fight in the UFC. This is one of the bad parts of competition. They are trying to outbid each other for draws instead of worrying about putting on legit competition that sells.
This is more proof that if Dana White wants to sign a fighter, he will.
I still can’t believe this happened LOL
This is a joke. Dana White cant talk smack about any other so called ‘freak show fights’. Signing a boxer is one thing but signing an old overweight boxer chasing a payday is something else.
Toney is a joke, but he just might knock a few fools out. I won’t pay to watch, but I’ll watch anyway.
Hey Zack A. I like the new reply format! Good Job!
ZA, one more question, is there any chance we could get an edit function?
I have looked into a service like IntenseDebate. I’m not sure how people would react to it’s implementation here.
“He’s never trained MMA in his life. Shit, he can’t even be bothered to train for his current profession…that should tell you a lot.”
He’s a current title holder(no matter how garbage boxing titles are nowadays). That means he probably trains a little.
“In short, this is a freak show, every bit the freak show Mercer/Sylvia was. At least in that case, Mercer was a legitimate heavyweight.”
Mercer was a legitimate HW? Your serious? He was 48 years old and hadn’t won in years before the Sylvia fight. This is a fighter who is pfp won of the best of all time. Has held titles in 5 or 6 different weight classes, and beat Holyfield while he was still half way decent(although he failed for steroids).
I think everyone should look at why Dana is doing this. The majority of the boxing world still thinks that any decent boxer could cross over to mma and smash people. I think Dana maybe gives him Kimbo or somebody else with standup ability limited to crappy boxing, and if he gets a win there he’ll get fed to a beast.
The main reason I think he ended up getting signed was when Toney trashed Dana for being scared. I think it pissed Dana off.
I believe he ment ‘legitimate’ in the sense that he was physically a HW fighter, rather than a small guy who ballooned well above his optimum weight.
There seems to be some confusion as to whether or not Kimbo/Mitrione was ever posted on the UFC’s website…can anyone clear it up?
He’s a current title holder(no matter how garbage boxing titles are nowadays). That means he probably trains a little.
I don’t think he’s ever actually defended the IBA title; he won that against Rydell Booker years and years ago. Its a totally irrelevant belt. It means less in boxing than the ISCF belt does in MMA.
Mercer was a legitimate HW? Your serious?
Ray Mercer is actually a heavyweight. Started in the amateurs as one, was a heavyweight his entire career. James Toney is not. The following questions about age are, to me, irrelevant, given Mercer’s obvious size advantage and the fact that he was a late starter in boxing (not to mention less active). Size is a key element in MMA, moreso than boxing, as Bob Sapp’s limited experience should be a reminder of for all time. So yeah; No different.
No one is deluded why it makes sense to sign Toney; People will pay to watch Toney once they see him do interviews about MMA as a sport and about whoever his opponent is. They will rush to do so, in fact. Does that make it not a freakshow? Please.
“You won’t see a Silva versus Jones fight while Silva is under contract with me,” White said Tuesday. “I don’t want to say anything bad about Roy Jones, I like Roy Jones and was a fan of his, but he mattered like fifteen years ago. He’s not anywhere near the best boxer in the world. He must’ve spent all his money.”
“I could do it, make it huge, make money, but I could have done a fight like this when we were bleeding money [in the early 2000s],” White said. “The fight would make some money, but it hurts MMA in the long term. We don’t do that because we love the sport. That’s a Pride or K-1 matchup. It’s not what we do.” – Dana White
I do think Dana White is a hypocrite. But what else is new?
James Toney may be over the hill, but he is still one of the better boxers to come to MMA.
Since I dont yet know how much MMA training he’s done, I’m not going to comment on how he will fare. I will say that I wouldnt be surprised if a few people here are surprised by his performance.
Well, the good news is that the UFC is definitely… definitely not going to book James Toney in any “freak show” fights. So that means there is zero chance of James Toney vs. Kimbo Slice ever happening, right?
The current buzz is… ufc may be signing EPIC BEARD to fight KIMBO, before strikeforce signs him to fight Walker.
I wonder what Anderson Silva thinks about Toney being able to have an open contract where he can box & compete in the UFC. A can of worms may have been opened.
Ed. — I wonder if his elbow injury will flare up again.
I don’t mind freak show fights at all. I kind of like them, actually, just as a spectator (not considering any long-term ramifications, if any, to the sport).
I never minded them in PRIDE and K-1, and I don’t mind them now.
I don’t know much about Toney’s credentials, but logically, it HAS to be a freak show signing because if Toney were still considered a legitimate competitive boxer, he wouldn’t be in the UFC. He’d be boxing in PPVs for bigger money.
James Toney is was/is a legitimate HW. He was the second person in boxing to tko Holyfield if memory serves correct.
“The following questions about age are, to me, irrelevant, given Mercer’s obvious size advantage and the fact that he was a late starter in boxing (not to mention less active).”
You can’t even believe this garbage your self. Go to Queensberry-rules, bad left hook, boxing bulletin, or any reputable blog and try to defend Ray Mercer as a 48 year old getting into mma against James Toney(2X named ring magazine fighter of the year). You would get killed, and rightly so because it is a terrible argument. While less active as you say he is he had more fights than toney counting up amateur and pro records.
Toney defended the belt you talk about agaisnt Ruiz but thats when he was busted for steroids.
“Size is a key element in MMA, moreso than boxing, as Bob Sapp’s limited experience should be a reminder of for all time. So yeah; No different.”
Sapp never won a title. He did well against guys that he dwarfed but that was also during the infancy of mma. When opponents started to actually train he started to get beat. Size might not matter as much in the lower weight classes in boxing but hw it still does. Why do you think the klitschkos rule the division?
Where in my response did I say it wasn’t a freak show. Then again you could name half the fights occuring in mma these days freak show fights.
Seems a major trend in the UFC is to promote striking, rather than grappling, unless the grappler is overwelmingly good.
BJ Penn fight Diego Sanchez entirely with striking is an example. Chuck Liddell is another.
Unfortunatly, Toney isn’t going to find any UFC fighters that want to stand and, bang with him. They’ll use grappling, the UFC marks will proclaim MMA superiority and, the promotional farce will continue.