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Independent World MMA Rankings – November 27, 2009
By Zach Arnold | November 27, 2009
From the office of the Independent World MMA Rankings
November 27, 2009: The November 2009 Independent World MMA Rankings have been released. These rankings are independent of any single MMA media outlet or sanctioning body, and are published on multiple web sites.
In addition to the numerous MMA web sites that publish the Independent World MMA Rankings, you can also access the rankings at any time by going to www.IndependentWorldMMARankings.com.
Some of the best and most knowledgeable MMA writers from across the MMA media landscape have come together to form one independent voting panel. These voting panel members are, in alphabetical order: Zach Arnold (Fight Opinion); Nicholas Bailey (MMA Ratings); Jared Barnes (Freelance); Jordan Breen (Sherdog); Jim Genia (Full Contact Fighter, MMA Memories, and MMA Journalist Blog); Jesse Holland (MMA Mania); Robert Joyner (Freelance); Todd Martin (CBS Sports); Jim Murphy (The Savage Science); Zac Robinson (Sports by the Numbers MMA); Leland Roling (Bloody Elbow); Michael David Smith (AOL Fanhouse); Jonathan Snowden (Heavy.com); Joshua Stein (MMA Opinion); Ivan Trembow (Freelance); and Dave Walsh (Total MMA and Head Kick Legend).
Note: Due to the fact that he has not competed in the welterweight division for over one year and has no plans to do so in the foreseeable future, Jake Shields is no longer eligible to be ranked in the welterweight division. He is, however, eligible to be ranked in the middleweight division.
Note: Due to the fact that he has moved to the light heavyweight division and has no plans to fight at heavyweight in the foreseeable future, Randy Couture is no longer eligible to be ranked in the
heavyweight division. He is, however, eligible to be ranked in the light heavyweight division.
November 2009 Independent World MMA Rankings
Ballots collected on November 24, 2009
Heavyweight Rankings (206 to 265 lbs.)
1. Fedor Emelianenko (31-1, 1 No Contest)
2. Brock Lesnar (4-1)
3. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (32-5-1, 1 No Contest)
4. Frank Mir (12-4)
5. Shane Carwin (11-0)
6. Brett Rogers (10-1)
7. Alistair Overeem (31-11, 1 No Contest)
8. Junior dos Santos (9-1)
9. Cain Velasquez (7-0)
10. Fabricio Werdum (13-4-1)
Light Heavyweight Rankings (186 to 205 lbs.)
1. Lyoto Machida (16-0)
2. Mauricio “Shogun” Rua (18-4)
3. Rashad Evans (13-1-1)
4. Quinton Jackson (30-7)
5. Anderson Silva (25-4)
6. Gegard Mousasi (27-2-1)
7. Forrest Griffin (17-6)
8. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira (18-3)
9. Dan Henderson (25-7)
10. Thiago Silva (14-1)
Middleweight Rankings (171 to 185 lbs.)
1. Anderson Silva (25-4)
2. Nathan Marquardt (29-8-2)
3. Dan Henderson (25-7)
4. Vitor Belfort (19-8)
5. Demian Maia (11-1)
6. Jake Shields (24-4-1)
7. Chael Sonnen (24-10-1)
8. Yushin Okami (23-5)
9. Robbie Lawler (16-5, 1 No Contest)
10. Jorge Santiago (21-8)
Welterweight Rankings (156 to 170 lbs.)
1. Georges St. Pierre (19-2)
2. Jon Fitch (19-3, 1 No Contest)
3. Thiago Alves (16-6)
4. Josh Koscheck (14-4)
5. Matt Hughes (43-7)
6. Dan Hardy (23-6)
7. Paulo Thiago (12-1)
8. Mike Swick (14-3)
9. Carlos Condit (24-5)
10. Marius Zaromskis (13-3)
Lightweight Rankings (146 to 155 lbs.)
1. B.J. Penn (14-5-1)
2. Shinya Aoki (22-4, 1 No Contest)
3. Eddie Alvarez (19-2)
4. Kenny Florian (11-4)
5. Tatsuya Kawajiri (25-5-2)
6. Diego Sanchez (21-2)
7. Gray Maynard (8-0, 1 No Contest)
8. Frankie Edgar (10-1)
9. Joachim Hansen (19-8-1)
10. Mizuto Hirota (12-3-1)
Featherweight Rankings (136 to 145 lbs.)
1. Jose Aldo (16-1)
2. Mike Brown (22-5)
3. Urijah Faber (22-3)
4. Hatsu Hioki (20-4-2)
5. Bibiano Fernandes (7-2)
6. Raphael Assuncao (14-1)
7. “Lion” Takeshi Inoue (17-3)
8. Wagnney Fabiano (12-2)
9. Manny Gamburyan (10-4)
10. Michihiro Omigawa (8-8-1)
Bantamweight Rankings (126 to 135 lbs.)
1. Brian Bowles (8-0)
2. Miguel Torres (37-2)
3. Takeya Mizugaki (12-3-2)
4. Masakatsu Ueda (10-0-2)
5. Dominick Cruz (14-1)
6. Akitoshi Tamura (14-7-2)
7. Joseph Benavidez (10-1)
8. Damacio Page (12-4)
9. Rani Yahya (15-4)
10. Will Ribeiro (10-2)
The Independent World MMA Rankings are tabulated on a monthly basis in each of the top seven weight classes of MMA, from heavyweight to bantamweight, with fighters receiving ten points for a first-place vote, nine points for a second-place vote, and so on.
The rankings are based purely on the votes of the members of the voting panel, with nobody’s vote counting more than anybody else’s vote, and no computerized voting.
The voters are instructed to vote primarily based on fighters’ actual accomplishments in the cage/ring (the quality of opposition that they’ve actually beaten), not based on a broad, subjective perception of which fighters would theoretically win fantasy match-ups.
Inactivity: Fighters who have not fought in the past 12 months are not eligible to be ranked, and will regain their eligibility the next time they fight.
Disciplinary Suspensions: Fighters who are currently serving disciplinary suspensions, or who have been denied a license for drug test or disciplinary reasons, are not eligible to be ranked.
Changing Weight Classes: When a fighter announces that he is leaving one weight class in order to fight in another weight class, the fighter is not eligible to be ranked in the new weight class until he has his first fight in the new weight class.
Catch Weight Fights: When fights are contested at weights that are in between the limits of the various weight classes, they are considered to be in the higher weight class. The weight limits for each weight class are listed at the top of the rankings for each weight class.
Special thanks to Eric Kamander, Zach Arnold, and Joshua Stein for their invaluable help with this project, and special thanks to Garrett Bailey for designing our logo.
Topics: Media, MMA, Zach Arnold | 66 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
I don’t understand why Josh Barnett is not in the top 10 for heavyweights, yet Alistair Overeem is?
Ok….
…or how Kenny Florian remains top 5 in one of the best divisions in MMA with no top 10 wins.
Safari Punch,
Reading is your friend:
Disciplinary Suspensions: Fighters who are currently serving disciplinary suspensions, or who have been denied a license for drug test or disciplinary reasons, are not eligible to be ranked.
Give it a try next time. You might like it.
Franklin? I couldn’t tell you what division he’s in right now, which is the only reason I can think of for him not to be in the middleweight rankings at least at 9, even if you don’t think much of him.
Otherwise I have no major concerns.
@DWA,
I probably should have read that.
If Barnett is allowed to fight in Japan, I don’t see why he can’t be ranked – but whatever.
Thanks for pointing out my short comings.
Not only is Alistair ranked in the top 10 with no relevant MMA fights, he’s moving *up* in the ranks. How is this possible?
I’d like to see ballots of these so-called best and most knowledgeable MMA writers, who put Overeem in the top 10.
He’s #7, which is about where he should be right now. The depth in the division, combined with injuries and set-backs, really is the one factor in his move up. Activity always will influence voters, one way or another.
I got no issue with him at #7. If Couture was still at Heavyweight, he’d be ranked ahead of Overeem for certain, so that explains at least one notch up.
I too think that if you’re doing a comprehensive website of “experts” everyone should post their personal ballot. It’s less than 20 people.
Yeah Zach Alistair obviously did more at HW than Dos Santos, Velasquez, Werdum and Arlovski. Give me a break 😀
@Zach
No kidding. I wonder which one of these judges is the Cecil Peoples of voting. Is it you Zach Arnold? Seems like you’re outing yourself, lol.
BTW, How does a guy get wins in K-1 and move up the ladder in MMA? Which fighter propelled Overeem in the rankings? The victory over the great Tony Slyvester or ‘King of Cans’ James Thompson?
Please.
Ed. — Nah, I can’t release my ballots. Again the panel rules. I asked to do it before and it was not allowed.
“Note: Due to the fact that he has not competed in the heavyweight division for over one year and has no plans to do so in the foreseeable future, Randy Couture is no longer eligible to be ranked in the heavyweight division.”
WTF? Since when is Big Nog a LHW?
Little Nog, who fought at that weight at the last UFC.
As far as the Overeem heat, funny that I’m drawing it when a lot of my rankings do not match the others on the panel in terms of order. *shrugs*
Zach you publish rankings, you draw the heat for Overeem rank. Please tell me where I should comment on this instead?
I remember Leland Roling releasing his ballots, so I guess it’s now forbidden. Way to go “best and most knowledgeable MMA writers”.
Holy crap. *insert picture of random “facepalm” here*
Look, if you’re going to believe Brock Lesnar deserved to rise to #2 automatically with his Couture title win and one title defense, then you should accept Strikeforce champion Since the justification with that was “all major champions are top 10 automatically.” Overeem with a lackluster record and inactivity retaining his low top 10 spot. It’s not like the HW division is that stacked anywhere like arguing over Welterweight rankings or something.
But agreed KenFlo is ranked WWWWAAAYYYY too high. Diego should have his slot.
The bylaws agreed upon by the panel when joining the committee was not to release ballots individually. I asked permission to do so a few months ago on a different ranking controversy and the request was denied. I respect that decision.
I find it funny that Overeem being ranked 7th – 7th! – in the Heavyweight division has people riled up. It’s looking more or less likely that in April he’ll fight Fedor, so the idea that he won’t be fighting serious competition any time soon is not (at the moment) a valid argument.
As far as Diego is concerned, he has a fight against Penn in a couple of weeks that will clear a lot of things up. I think voters are likely going to measure how he does against Penn as compared to how Florian did last August and then make a further determination.
It doesn’t matter if he’s 7th or 77th. He doesn’t deserve to ranked over Dos Santos, Velasquez, Werdum and Arlovski.
He is doesn’t have any significant wins at HW and the best fighter he fought (Kharitonov) knocked him out. At the same time Dos Santos beat Werdum, Struve and CroCop. Velasquez has wins over Kongo and Rothwell, Werdum over Gonzaga, Vera and Silva.
What fighting Fedor in April has to to with his present ranking? Or maybe it has something to do with it?
The #2 and #3 organization champions should all get top 10 rankings (IMO that’s Strikeforce and DREAM) if that was why Brock Lesnar, losing to Mir, beating Herring and then beating Couture (wow, so impressive!) got shot to #2 and nobody had a problem with it. Or Frank Mir after beating Nogueira shooting up to top 5 even after years of sucking. His inactivity should definitely lower him to bottom top 10, like 8 or 9 but with Barnett and Couture out that does move him.
And really, Velasquez and Dos Santos with wins over non-top 10 fighters deserve it over the #2 org’s champion? Your nuthuggery is outstanding, Ice Huddle and Wolverine. And I don’t even like Overeem for the record. I’ll actually be amazed if he passes a drug test to fight Fedor.
Werdum was a top ten fighter when Dos Santos knocked him out.
If Overeem is ranked so high because he is a Strikeforce champ or he has K-1 wins over Hari and Aerts I’m okay with it, but please put it ine the rankings rules: “votes are based on titles fighter posseses, his MMA and K-1 accomplishments”.
BTW: Lesnar was not 2nd at HW, when he beat Randy. Both Barnett and Arlovski were above him. Nogueira before he lost to Mir was also above Lesnar.
For this kind of thing (a panel of “experts” — a highly dubious epithet in the case of many of its members), I’d rather see a ranking of the top 10 best fighters in the division than an attempt to evaluate fighters based on records.
That would end the Overeem debate right there because I think most fans would agree that he’s one of the five best HWs in the world and maybe as high as No. 2.
There’s no good reason to rank Overeem above #30 considering he has NO WINS over ranked opponents at HW. Doubling your size and winning a few kickboxing matches does not earn you a spot in the rankings. Neither does kneeing CroCop repeatedly in the nuts. Neither does holding the Strikeforce HW Belt after beating Buentello, for hell’s sake. And that was ages ago.
1. Alistair Overeem is not Top 10. his best win in that division was over two years ago against Paul Buentello.
2. Nogueira over Mir is a joke.
3. Gegard Mousasi at #6 is a joke. Hasn’t beaten anyone ranked high enough to deserve that ranking.
4. Jake Shields at #6 is a joke. Beating Jason Miller and Robbie Lawler does not make one #6.
5. Dan Hardy at #6 is a joke. How does the guy get ranked so high? His best win is against Mike Swick who was lower Top 10 at best.
“That would end the Overeem debate right there because I think most fans would agree that he’s one of the five best HWs in the world and maybe as high as No. 2.”
Even that logic is horrible for any credible MMA “expert”.
Overeem is a failed Light Heavyweight who has shown time and time again he struggles after 5 minutes. And he hasn’t proven anything in MMA at Heavyweight either.
If somebody thinks Alistair Overeem is good enough to be ranked as high as #2…. Then I could use that same logic for really any Top 20 fighter based on hypothetical and made up “potential”.
Really what this boils down to…. With ranking after ranking that I have seen…. Is that the so called “experts” of MMA are either clueless or fanboys with a hidden agenda. Either way, their knowledge is horrible….
Once again, Mark lacks complete logic…
“The #2 and #3 organization champions should all get top 10 rankings (IMO that’s Strikeforce and DREAM) if that was why Brock Lesnar, losing to Mir, beating Herring and then beating Couture (wow, so impressive!) got shot to #2 and nobody had a problem with it. Or Frank Mir after beating Nogueira shooting up to top 5 even after years of sucking. His inactivity should definitely lower him to bottom top 10, like 8 or 9 but with Barnett and Couture out that does move him.”
1) Titles have nothing to do with anything when it comes to rankings.
2) Whether or not Frank Mir stunk in the past, he beat the universally recogonized #2 Heavyweight in the world, which was Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera. That got him the #2 ranking. When Brock Lesnar beat him, Brock Lesnar become the #2 Heavyweight in the world.
It’s extremely simple logic that has nothing to do with what organization they fight in or if there was a belt on the line when they competed.
Summarized 45 Huddle comments: Anyone not promoted by the UFC being ranked in the top 10 is a “joke,” regardless of their accomplishments or talent.
And yes, 45, a qualitative assessment could lead to anyone being ranked anywhere, if the assesser doesn’t know what he’s talking about. But if we’re talking about the consensus of supposed experts, it would have more credibility than someone who just ranks guys based on their promoter or whatever criteria you use.
Also, Mir has a poor recent and long-term record, and no one really believes he’s one of the 10 best HWs in the world. But because of one win, people are obligated to move him up from maybe 20th to second? Underlying that decision seems to be the assumptions that chance is never a factor in MMA, that fighters’ abilities don’t vary, and that “styles make fights” is a myth.
Here is a simple way to rank….
Take somebody who has absolutely no clue what MMA is….
1) Give him a credible, logical ranking from 1 year ago.
2) Then give him all the fights that have taken place with those fighters over the last year.
3) When one fighter beats another fighter, he goes into his ranking, and everybody else moves one ranking down.
4) Have him remove any athletes from the equation once their one year of inactivity from that division is up.
Take that ranking and that is the true basis for everything. It really should be about 90% accurate compared to the final version.
The only changes that should be made from there are one’s where it is beyond apparent that an athlete is no longer the same one he use to be. Like Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, or Tim Sylvia. Technically they might still be Top 10, but recent fights have shown such a diminish in skill that it becomes obvious they shouldn’t be ranked anymore. That would not include a guy like Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, who has slowed down, but continues to do enough.
That has nothing to do with the UFC. That has nothing to do with favoring certain organizations. That is taking a rational, results based approach to rankings. And it is the most credible way to do it.
People like Isaiah can throw out insults towards me, but your way of ranking is illogical, allows more opinion then facts, and honestly is just piss poor.
And don’t tell me these so-called “MMA experts” know what they are talking about. I’ve seen how many of them run their sites and how they cover the news…. It is anything but fair. There are extreme biases on all sides of the MMA Media…. That includes both pro and anti UFC. There are very few that don’t fall into that catagory.
Zach said: “As far as the Overeem heat, funny that I’m drawing it when a lot of my rankings do not match the others on the panel in terms of order. *shrugs*”
It reminds me of The O’Reily Factor. Bill will bring up a topic with a guest and then say: “Well, I’m not sure if I believe it, but what do you think.” What Bill is really doing is bringing up a topic he feels is important, but doesn’t want to take the heat for it. Not just your opinion, but the topics that you cover to choose defines a website.
Zack, I don’t think you are like Bill O’Reily, are that you even believe these rankings are good. But the same principle applies. If you post it, there is a quick perception that you agree with the rankings….
“My way” of rankings isn’t the issue. If rankings are going to be based purely on results, I’d prefer to see them be formula-based. If they’re going be based on the opinions of a panel, I’d like to see them based on the actual opinions of that panel, rather than the panel’s attempt at a results-based ranking.
Your method is beyond ridiculous, however. It would lead to such nonsense as Frank Mir, a guy with a poor record who no sane person on the planet thinks is a top-five HW, being ranked fourth (behind Fedor, Lesnar and Rogers).
100% opinion or 100% results based would create some bad rankings. Just look at klown’s rankings. I actually like what he posts because it shows people what it looks like and is 100% logical, but they are just off sometimes.
But the results need to be real foundation of the rankings. Without it, a win or loss can be justified to mean anything.
You keep on bringing up Frank Mir. He is a more extreme example (in terms of a rise in rankings). But he still beat Nogueira. In fact, he knocked him down multiple times in that fight. Nobody has ever dominated Nogueira like that. If that doesn’t deserve him being ranked in the Top 10, I don’t think any fighter in MMA deserves it.
Either way, guys like Mousasi being ranked so high. Or Rua all of a sudden being #2 after losing a fight (I had him winning, but that loss should not increase him in the rankings). Or Overeem in the Top 10. Or even Koscheck above Paulo Thiago (despite Thiago’s only loss after that coming to a higher ranked fighter)…. It all makes no sense at all. It shows the voters have fighters they like or are more familiar with, and constantly rank them higher as a result…. Without that fighter having the record to justify it.
How does Mir’s record justify him being fourth? This is a guy who has lost to Brandon Vera and PDP recently, and who was destroyed in his last fight. His ranking is based on one fight against an opponent who looked terrible. That makes no sense, and everyone knows it. They’re following a bad system off a cliff.
Rua was ranked No. 1, had one loss, a win, and then a hotly disputed loss to the consensus No. 1 guy. Wouldn’t he already have been No. 2 going in to the Machida fight under your crazy system?
Rua didn’t beat Machida on the scorecards. A loss should never move you up the rankings. Ever. That’s not very pro-UFC, now is it? Rua is a UFC fighter…. Kind of kills your comment about me hating on everything outside of the UFC. I’m hating on Rua’s, Hardy’s, and Nogueira’s rankings. There is potentially more, but those 3 stood out like sore thumbs….
And Mir’s past record has nothing to do with it. Zach Arnold could fight Fedor Emelianenko tomorrow, and if he wins, he is the #1 Heavyweight in the world. If winning and losing doesn’t matter in rankings…. Then what does? Absolutely nothing. If Mir beats Nogueira, he is ranked higher then him…. It’s as simple as that.
I like to look at each Top 10 spot as being as linear as possible…. If Fedor loses…. Doesn’t matter who it is to, that guy becomes the #1 Heavyweight in the world. If the #8 Heavyweight loses, that guy becomes the #8 Heavyweight in the world.
I know you somehow hate this way of doing it… But there is no better way. It doesn’t mean I think Frank Mir would beat Cain Velasquez, Shane Carwin, or a few other Heavyweights. I think he would lose to a good number of guys. But those guys need to prove it like Mir did with his win over Nogueira. Once they do, they get ranked. A guy like Overeem has not proven it…. And a guy like Nogueira has proven he loses to Mir, and has not beaten anybody ranked higher to leapfrog that loss.
So if you follow my logic… the UFC has no chance of having the #1 Heavyweight in the world until either Fedor signs with them (never happen), somebody beats him and then signs with him (Werdum & Overeem) have no chance of beating him, or he retires (not happening for a while). Once again, not very pro-UFC. But Fedor has that ranking. I did not agree with his choice of opponents over a 3+ year period, but he doesn’t lose the ranking because of it… unless it is potentially so obnoxious with him fighting such inferior opponents for a long long period of time….
So do you have Serra ranked as the No. 3 WW behind GSP and Hughes now? I’m sorry but basing rankings on single fights is just stupid and leads to stupid, indefensible rankings like Mir and Serra No. 3.
Nogueira’s only recent loss is to Mir, while he has recent wins over Barnett, Sylvia, Herring and Couture. Mir has lost to Vera, PDP, and Brock, recently, and has only one notable win. If your method compels you to rate Mir over Nogueira, your method is wrong. Indefensible either by a rational evaluation of records OR by a rational evaluation of their skills.
Matt Serra was inactive for over 1 year on two occasions since beating GSP and lost both of his “return” fights. He would not be ranked because of that.
I still have Matt Hughes in the Top 5…. If you are wondering. He is borderline turning into Couture or Liddell where he would be dropped because of a diminishing in skills… But he isn’t there yet. He might prove that in his next fight…. Time will tell.
“If your method compels you to rate Mir over Nogueira, your method is wrong. Indefensible either by a rational evaluation of records OR by a rational evaluation of their skills.”
Mir beat Nogueira. And it wasn’t a fluke win like somebody could claim Paulo Thiago over Josh Koscheck was (one good punch). He knocked him down 3 times in the fight. Like I have continued to say…. If beating somebody doesn’t get you ranked higher, I don’t know what does.
You continue to try and point out the pitfalls of my style of rankings. And I have admitted it isn’t perfect. But the pitfalls of my system are 10X’s smaller then the pitfalls of yours. Your is extremely arbitrary and lacks credibility because of that.
One Voter’s Take
I think some of you here are painting with a pretty broad brush. I don’t think I’m either pro and anti-UFC and think that our panel is generally filled with people without a stake in some fictional promotional horse race.
It’s funny that people are quick to deem anyone they don’t agree with “ignorant.” I feel pretty strongly my opinions are formed through discussions with people in the industry and first hand observation (either live or on DVD). You may not agree with them, but they aren’t ignorant.
If I didn’t have the information to form a solid opinion, I wouldn’t undertake the challenge of ranking dozens of fighters. It’s actually quite time consuming, and as you’ll note, a thankless task….
This debate between you and I is very much like people who debate evolution vs. creationism. Both are theories, so there is always room to be critical of both…. But where do the facts come from?
Creationist’s theory sound good until they have to start explaining how they came up with it when so many facts are out there to dispell their theory. Same with your rankings. It is good until I start questioning it with facts… Like Mir beating Nogueira… Or Overeem not beating anybody to get that ranking.
The theory of evolotion isn’t perfect. We don’t know how the earth was formed. We don’t have a lot of answers for everything. But it definitely explains how humans were created much better then any other theory… and it has the science to back it up. My method of rankings isn’t perfect, but it is the best explanation for an order in each weight class… And I have a very good set of rules for how it is established.
No method is perfect… But yours stinks… It is the same method used by many of the people in this ranking… And that is why people bash it so much. It is why people bash Sherdog or BE’s rankings so much as well. You can’t explain how you came up with those rankings with facts….
LOL! Yeah, you’re a regular Clarence Darrow here.
Once again, my method isn’t what we’re discussing. I’ve been talking about the best use of a panel of “experts.” That would be to give informed opinions about fighting. MMA “experts” tend to be very poor at math or settling complex rankings issues rationally, but presumably they are good at understanding what they see with their own eyes.
Your method leads to bad results, which means it is a bad method. It would be like using some kind of equities valuation method that was making bad predictions. Would you stick to it? No. We must decide what we want out of rankings and then try to tell if we’re getting that. If what you want is objectivity, there are better ways than some stupid system (that incidentally would never have Anderson Silva as the No. 1 MW depending on when your hypothetical ignorant fan starting following it), like Elo.
LOL @ 45 Huddle typing 100,000 words but not saying anything about Kenny Florian being ranked top 5 with no top 10 wins.
Allistar is being ranked based on potential and current skillset, and his K-1 fights are definitely spilling over. I don’t agree with that, but we’ve seen it before. All BJ Penn had to do to get his #1 lightweight ranking was lose two times in a row at 170, then drop to 155, coach TUF, and beat Jens Pulver who was coming off a loss to unranked Joe Lauzon. BJ hadn’t fought at LW for 4 years, but one win over an unranked guy and he was universally #1 based on current skillset and potential.
Florian is a UFC guy so a different set rules apply to him than those applied to non-UFC fighters or guys who currently are UFC fighter but originally made their names elsewhere.
LW Top 10 According to 45:
1. B.J. Penn
2. Shinya Aoki
3. Eddie Alvarez
4. Joachim Hansen
5. Mizuto Hirota
6. Jorge Masvidal
7. Satoru Kitaoka
8. Kazunori Yokota
9. Eiji Mitsuoka
10. Sergei Golyaev
It is literally impossible for a UFC fighter to crack the top 10 under this system, unless they beat B.J. Penn.
Smoogy,
Interesting. Now we get to see whether his Zuffa bias is stronger than his commitment to his nutty ranking system.
And I should take a moment to explain my own preferred system (as opposed to my preferred use of a panel of “experts”). I think fighters should be ranked ahead of other fighters that they have shown themselves to be better than. So if a fringy guy beats a top guy, he doesn’t necessarily jump over him. The top guy should take a hit and the fringy guy should get a bump, but reason has to be used in determining the size of the hit and the bump.
You can’t rank Nog over Mir under any circumstance. They just fought two fights ago, Mir won lop-sidely. It’s like ranking Saunders ahead of Swick right now.
I also can’t help but laugh at people that say “But Nog had staph!” while simultaneously bringing up Mir’s losses post motorcycle accident.
I’m not saying a rematch will go the same way (though I’d bet money it would if it was an even-money wager), but until Nog beats someone better than Mir or Mir loses to someone worse than Nog, you can’t move Nog ahead of Mir.
Ice Huddle is channeling Tomer Chen minus the intellect here.
This is why rankings are useless: you’re going to have 3 different ranking perspectives lead to 3 different lists and everybody writes essays bitching about it that nobody on the unofficial rankings committee give a rat’s ass about. It will be who has the best skills, who beat the best competition, or who has the best record regardless of quality competition.
Then there’s the whole “how long do wins count for” question, or a “what if it was a fluke victory” question. And the question of part-time divisional fighters deserve to be ranked to the division they don’t commit to (ie, Penn at WW or Silva at LHW) or if they do switch over full time do their prior division’s wins qualify for ranking. Or whether UFC fighters should get special treatment in rankings because lots of people feel they’re fighting better competition than other orgs. And the “do you get someone’s ranking if they’re ranked higher than you, whether or not you’re ranked at all” that nobody can agree on. Why get so worked up over it? It’s not like Dana White or Scott Coker pays attention to these or MMAWeekly or Sherdog or Bloody Elbow rankings when deciding to put fights together. It’s entertainment.
If you only count each guy’s last fight, Nog ranks ahead of Mir. If you only count their last two fights, Mir is ahead if you don’t discount his win over Nog. If you look back three fights, it’s about even. If you look back four or more fights, Nog has a clear edge. If you base it on how good each guy is, Nog has a clear edge. The only way Mir is ahead of Nog, then, is if you use a lookback period of exactly two or maybe three fights, or you use the crazy “automatic bump over anyone you beat” method. However, if you use that system consistently, you’ll have all kinds of crazy rankings that no one will agree with, like someone besides Anderson Silva at No. 1 among MWs or Sokodjou at No. 1 among LHWs until his loss to Machida and Cane at No. 2 among LHWs until his loss to Nogueira.
smoogy,
How do you get BJ Penn as #1 under my system? I’m curious to see it.
For the Lightweight Division… As I have stated in previous months…. It is literally impossible to rank it. It went from BJ Penn being the king of the division to him leaving…. Gomi taking over, but it was really 160 pounds so technically it was still a fight that took place at Welterweight. But even if you said okay to that, then Gomi lost in a fight that was overturned…. And then the division become fractured into 4 different companies. Like I said, the who beat who system works 90% of the time. The Lightweight division is an exception. Outside of ranking those guys within their own companies, there is just not enough common fights to make up a ranking. And this is why I have not mentioned Kenny Florian, as I basically ignore the Lightweights in general….
And Frank Mir will beat Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira in a rematch. Nogueira was 1-1 against Josh Barnett, should have lost to Ricco Rodriguez, and got beat up bad against Frank Mir. They are all the same type of fighters…. Around 250+ and good submissions. That is Nogueira’s complete weakspot. If he can’t outgrapple a fighter, he really struggles (see his fights with Fedor). But that has nothing to do with the rankings… Just my opinion on that.
And it’s funny how people mention a Zuffa bias when I have cited more examples of UFC fighters being ranked incorrectly then I have non-UFC fighters….
People are very critical of judges, refs, scoring, and even rankings… But the majority just bash it without giving a viable alternative. I’m giving an alternative, and I get praised by some but bashed by most. I don’t see anybody else really giving a good solution.
I can tell you a perfect solution…. UFC Rankings and Everything Else rankings. It logically makes sense, is fair since the UFC already has around 53/54 of the Top 70 fighters, and the UFC is a closed organization while DREAM, Sengoku, Strikeforce, and Bellator are not….
Why a website hasn’t done that yet is beyond me…. How things are done now, it’s like combining MLB stats with the Japanese league….
How would Soko be a #1 Light Heavyweight? You are just pulling crap out of your behind now….
Due to the division in the sport for many years, the argument could have been made that both Mauricio Rua and Chuck Liddell where the #1 Light Heavyweights at the time of Pride’s closing. Once Rampage beat Liddell, Rua became the #1 Light Heavyweight until he lost to Forrest, when Forrest won the UFC title, the UFC Title became the #1 Light Heavyweight in the world….
Soko and Cane have not been Top 5 at any point, especially with Rua, Liddell, Silva, Couture, and a few others above Arona & Nogueira at the time of those wins by Soko….
LOL at 45’s ranking system.
I think Florian being anywhere near the top 5 is insane, and I think Forrest being ranked above lil Nog, Henderson, and Thiago Silva is a stretch too. Forrest is the luckiest fighter on Earth: he fought Shogun when the latter was nowhere near 100%, he fought a fat Rampage, and he somehow is a top 10 fighter because he main evented a card and won a horrid decision against Tito Ortiz, who hasn’t fought in 2 years. I still am not sure how Forrest is even ranked above Keith Jardine…
It will be interesting to see what the UFC does with Forrest; they know he can’t beat any of the Brazilians (lil Nog, Anderson, Machida), but they also don’t want to put him against a lower ranked guy because Forrest has the ability to lose to anyone. I think the UFC should do a much-anticipated rematch between Forrest and Bill Mahood and then let the winner get a title shot. If Forrest is going to get crushed again, at least let it be in a title match so his drawing power isn’t totally destroyed.
Ranking everyone is not at all like combining MLB and Japan, though it is possible to adjust for the differing run contexts and quality of opposition and compare MLB players to Japanese players. But MMA is an individual sport, so ranking UFC and non-UFC guys is more similar to ranking boxers with different promoters than it is to combining MLB and Japanese League stats.
And I was slightly mistaken about Soko. Arona would have been No. 1 under your system and then dropped to No. 2 before his loss to Soko, who would then have been elevated to No. 2 until his loss to Machida.
“Forrest is the luckiest fighter on Earth: he fought Shogun when the latter was nowhere near 100%, he fought a fat Rampage, and he somehow is a top 10 fighter because he main evented a card and won a horrid decision against Tito Ortiz, who hasn’t fought in 2 years. I still am not sure how Forrest is even ranked above Keith Jardine…”
This is exactly what I’m talking about when I say people are crazy in their rankings. I agree that Forrest had some luck, but he won those fights, and deserves to be ranked higher because of that. After beating Rua, he was the #1 Light Heavyweight in the world.
As for Griffin being above Jardine…. He beat a guy ranked above Jardine, hence his better ranking. It’s not rocket science, but I think for you it looks to be…
“And I was slightly mistaken about Soko. Arona would have been No. 1 under your system and then dropped to No. 2 before his loss to Soko, who would then have been elevated to No. 2 until his loss to Machida.”
You are still confused.
“Ranking everyone is not at all like combining MLB and Japan, though it is possible to adjust for the differing run contexts and quality of opposition and compare MLB players to Japanese players.”
Um, no. Each are a closed league. The stats only matter within that league.
“But MMA is an individual sport, so ranking UFC and non-UFC guys is more similar to ranking boxers with different promoters than it is to combining MLB and Japanese League stats.”
Boxing has nothing like the UFC/WEC. The UFC/WEC has all it’s fighters to exclusive contracts and they have at the very minimum, 75% of the Top 10 fighters across 7 weight classes. The comparison is about as bad as your rankings.
I love it when people put me down and then use examples that are beyond dumb. Keep it up guys. I don’t care if the usual suspects continue to put me down on here…. You guys continue to lack any capacity to think properly on this topic.
45 please be honest with me: are you retarded?
“This is exactly what I’m talking about when I say people are crazy in their rankings. I agree that Forrest had some luck, but he won those fights, and deserves to be ranked higher because of that. After beating Rua, he was the #1 Light Heavyweight in the world.
As for Griffin being above Jardine…. He beat a guy ranked above Jardine, hence his better ranking. It’s not rocket science, but I think for you it looks to be…”
Forrest Griffin, coming into the fight against Shogun Rua, was 2-2 in his previous 4 fights. His two wins were against Hector Ramirez and Stephan Bonnar, both of whom suck. His two losses were against Tito and Keith Jardine, the former with a horribly bad back, the latter a top 20 lhw, who, after destroying Forrest, was knocked unconscious by Houston Alexander in under a minute. Surely 45, not even you, can honestly think that Forrest was the best lhw in the world going 3-2 against a Shogun nowhere near 100%, Tito nowhere near 100%, and 3 mediocre fighters. That is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard if you honestly believe that Forrest deserved to be ranked #1 in the world after going 3-2 in that stretch. I hope you’re kidding.
My initial comment about Jardine being ranked above Forrest was in jest, although honestly neither of them deserves to be ranked in the top 10. Forrest has no speed and no power. He is like Rudy; an underdog who got the breaks to make it to the top temporarily. Don’t confuse that with him EVER being the best 205er in the world.
Damn. Another oversight. Doesn’t change my point (put Soko down to third), and I like how 45 pretends to be unable to grasp the point and focuses on the minor error. If you knew anything about baseball, you’d know that such translations are absolutely possible. http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8558