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Independent World MMA Rankings – November 27, 2009

By Zach Arnold | November 27, 2009

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From the office of the Independent World MMA Rankings

November 27, 2009: The November 2009 Independent World MMA Rankings have been released. These rankings are independent of any single MMA media outlet or sanctioning body, and are published on multiple web sites.

In addition to the numerous MMA web sites that publish the Independent World MMA Rankings, you can also access the rankings at any time by going to www.IndependentWorldMMARankings.com.

Some of the best and most knowledgeable MMA writers from across the MMA media landscape have come together to form one independent voting panel. These voting panel members are, in alphabetical order: Zach Arnold (Fight Opinion); Nicholas Bailey (MMA Ratings); Jared Barnes (Freelance); Jordan Breen (Sherdog); Jim Genia (Full Contact Fighter, MMA Memories, and MMA Journalist Blog); Jesse Holland (MMA Mania); Robert Joyner (Freelance); Todd Martin (CBS Sports); Jim Murphy (The Savage Science); Zac Robinson (Sports by the Numbers MMA); Leland Roling (Bloody Elbow); Michael David Smith (AOL Fanhouse); Jonathan Snowden (Heavy.com); Joshua Stein (MMA Opinion); Ivan Trembow (Freelance); and Dave Walsh (Total MMA and Head Kick Legend).

Note: Due to the fact that he has not competed in the welterweight division for over one year and has no plans to do so in the foreseeable future, Jake Shields is no longer eligible to be ranked in the welterweight division. He is, however, eligible to be ranked in the middleweight division.

Note: Due to the fact that he has moved to the light heavyweight division and has no plans to fight at heavyweight in the foreseeable future, Randy Couture is no longer eligible to be ranked in the
heavyweight division. He is, however, eligible to be ranked in the light heavyweight division.

November 2009 Independent World MMA Rankings
Ballots collected on November 24, 2009

Heavyweight Rankings (206 to 265 lbs.)
1. Fedor Emelianenko (31-1, 1 No Contest)
2. Brock Lesnar (4-1)
3. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (32-5-1, 1 No Contest)
4. Frank Mir (12-4)
5. Shane Carwin (11-0)
6. Brett Rogers (10-1)
7. Alistair Overeem (31-11, 1 No Contest)
8. Junior dos Santos (9-1)
9. Cain Velasquez (7-0)
10. Fabricio Werdum (13-4-1)

Light Heavyweight Rankings (186 to 205 lbs.)
1. Lyoto Machida (16-0)
2. Mauricio “Shogun” Rua (18-4)
3. Rashad Evans (13-1-1)
4. Quinton Jackson (30-7)
5. Anderson Silva (25-4)
6. Gegard Mousasi (27-2-1)
7. Forrest Griffin (17-6)
8. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira (18-3)
9. Dan Henderson (25-7)
10. Thiago Silva (14-1)

Middleweight Rankings (171 to 185 lbs.)
1. Anderson Silva (25-4)
2. Nathan Marquardt (29-8-2)
3. Dan Henderson (25-7)
4. Vitor Belfort (19-8)
5. Demian Maia (11-1)
6. Jake Shields (24-4-1)
7. Chael Sonnen (24-10-1)
8. Yushin Okami (23-5)
9. Robbie Lawler (16-5, 1 No Contest)
10. Jorge Santiago (21-8)

Welterweight Rankings (156 to 170 lbs.)
1. Georges St. Pierre (19-2)
2. Jon Fitch (19-3, 1 No Contest)
3. Thiago Alves (16-6)
4. Josh Koscheck (14-4)
5. Matt Hughes (43-7)
6. Dan Hardy (23-6)
7. Paulo Thiago (12-1)
8. Mike Swick (14-3)
9. Carlos Condit (24-5)
10. Marius Zaromskis (13-3)

Lightweight Rankings (146 to 155 lbs.)
1. B.J. Penn (14-5-1)
2. Shinya Aoki (22-4, 1 No Contest)
3. Eddie Alvarez (19-2)
4. Kenny Florian (11-4)
5. Tatsuya Kawajiri (25-5-2)
6. Diego Sanchez (21-2)
7. Gray Maynard (8-0, 1 No Contest)
8. Frankie Edgar (10-1)
9. Joachim Hansen (19-8-1)
10. Mizuto Hirota (12-3-1)

Featherweight Rankings (136 to 145 lbs.)
1. Jose Aldo (16-1)
2. Mike Brown (22-5)
3. Urijah Faber (22-3)
4. Hatsu Hioki (20-4-2)
5. Bibiano Fernandes (7-2)
6. Raphael Assuncao (14-1)
7. “Lion” Takeshi Inoue (17-3)
8. Wagnney Fabiano (12-2)
9. Manny Gamburyan (10-4)
10. Michihiro Omigawa (8-8-1)

Bantamweight Rankings (126 to 135 lbs.)
1. Brian Bowles (8-0)
2. Miguel Torres (37-2)
3. Takeya Mizugaki (12-3-2)
4. Masakatsu Ueda (10-0-2)
5. Dominick Cruz (14-1)
6. Akitoshi Tamura (14-7-2)
7. Joseph Benavidez (10-1)
8. Damacio Page (12-4)
9. Rani Yahya (15-4)
10. Will Ribeiro (10-2)

The Independent World MMA Rankings are tabulated on a monthly basis in each of the top seven weight classes of MMA, from heavyweight to bantamweight, with fighters receiving ten points for a first-place vote, nine points for a second-place vote, and so on.

The rankings are based purely on the votes of the members of the voting panel, with nobody’s vote counting more than anybody else’s vote, and no computerized voting.

The voters are instructed to vote primarily based on fighters’ actual accomplishments in the cage/ring (the quality of opposition that they’ve actually beaten), not based on a broad, subjective perception of which fighters would theoretically win fantasy match-ups.

Inactivity: Fighters who have not fought in the past 12 months are not eligible to be ranked, and will regain their eligibility the next time they fight.

Disciplinary Suspensions: Fighters who are currently serving disciplinary suspensions, or who have been denied a license for drug test or disciplinary reasons, are not eligible to be ranked.

Changing Weight Classes: When a fighter announces that he is leaving one weight class in order to fight in another weight class, the fighter is not eligible to be ranked in the new weight class until he has his first fight in the new weight class.

Catch Weight Fights: When fights are contested at weights that are in between the limits of the various weight classes, they are considered to be in the higher weight class. The weight limits for each weight class are listed at the top of the rankings for each weight class.

Special thanks to Eric Kamander, Zach Arnold, and Joshua Stein for their invaluable help with this project, and special thanks to Garrett Bailey for designing our logo.

Topics: Media, MMA, Zach Arnold | 66 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

66 Responses to “Independent World MMA Rankings – November 27, 2009”

  1. isaiah says:

    “Forrest Griffin, coming into the fight against Shogun Rua, was 2-2 in his previous 4 fights. His two wins were against Hector Ramirez and Stephan Bonnar, both of whom suck. His two losses were against Tito and Keith Jardine, the former with a horribly bad back, the latter a top 20 lhw, who, after destroying Forrest, was knocked unconscious by Houston Alexander in under a minute. Surely 45, not even you, can honestly think that Forrest was the best lhw in the world going 3-2 against a Shogun nowhere near 100%, Tito nowhere near 100%, and 3 mediocre fighters. That is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard if you honestly believe that Forrest deserved to be ranked #1 in the world after going 3-2 in that stretch. I hope you’re kidding.”

    Here’s the thing: I think 45, like any sane observer, would acknowledge that Forrest was clearly not the best LHW in the world, but he’d claim that he deserved to be ranked there anyway because of his idiotic ranking system. But I’d say when your ranking system forces you to a conclusion that no one in the world would accept, that means your system sucks and should be abandoned immediately.

  2. Isaiah says:

    One more note (sorry for not thinking of these all at once, Zach): After the OWGP, CroCop would have been No. 2. So 45’s HW top five:

    1. Fedor
    2. JDS
    3. Werdum
    4. Carwin
    5. Gonzaga

    That pretty much says it all.

  3. Mark says:

    The UFC rankings and then everyone else rankings call is just silly. If you want that, go make your own list, it has just as much relevance and authority as any other amateur composed list. You’re taking this far too seriously to even want such a thing. This is purely an entertainment list for MMA fans to argue over who is the best fighter in their weightclass. Stop taking this so seriously.

  4. Isaiah says:

    Not quite, Mark. It’s not even about how the best fighter is in each weight class to 45. His system requires that that neither the quality of a fighter nor his record be taken into consideration. Why anyone on Earth should care about a ranking that doesn’t even pretend to be based on how good anyone is or the overall quality of anyone’s record is a mystery to me.

  5. JRN says:

    I actually think 45 is almost on the right track with his idea; the problem is that he doesn’t consider that not all wins and losses should be weighted equally. Some losses really should only drop a fighter down one slot; others are more damaging.

    Consider Alessio Sakara’s win over Thales Leites. Let’s say Leites was #4 in the world at the time. Sakara, meanwhile, was nowhere near the top 25, let alone the top 5. So it would seem silly to just put Sakara, with his recent loss to Chris Leben, at #4 and have Leites only drop one slot.

    Granted, how exactly to handle such situations is a subjective matter. Subjectivity will never be completely excised from the ranking process. That’s part of what’s fun about it.

    In general, though, I think 45 is right to insist that the winner of a fight always be ranked above the loser.

    What some of the objections to 45 miss is that rankings are not, and cannot, really be about who is “the best” in terms of some abstract metric of fighting prowess. They have to be about the results of fights. That is the only remotely objective factor we have to base these things on.

    Maybe it seems crazy to have Forrest Griffin at #1, even after he beat Rua and Jackson back-to-back, because of mitigating circumstances plus how it just “seems wrong.” But the fact of the matter is, he beat two of the top ranked LHW fighters in the world. That merits a high ranking.

    That, I think, is something no reasonable person could deny. If you didn’t have him at or near #1 at that time, then you either think he should have been ranked below people he beat, or you think some other guy should have moved to #1 based on something other than winning fights.

    In any event, Forrest lost his next two fights against ranked opponents. These kinds of situations tend to work themselves out.

  6. Michaelthebox says:

    “Little Nog, who fought at that weight at the last UFC.”

    Reading comprehension for the loss.

  7. JRN says:

    All that being said, the IWMMA rankings always produce a bunch of goofy results. To wit:

    –Shane Carwin over Brett Rogers
    –The much-discussed placement of Alistair Overeem
    –Gegard Mousasi at #6
    –Josh Koscheck over Paulo Thiago
    –Dan Henderson and Vitor Belfort at #3 and #4. This is absolutely a case of ranking based on hype rather than actual fight results.
    –Marius Zaromskis anywhere near the top 10
    –Diego Sanchez at #6
    –Takeya Mizugaki at #3

    …just to name a few

  8. Isaiah says:

    45’s method is completely objective. The problem is that in an attempt to gain objectivity, it loses any reference to the real world. And further, there are far more sophisticated objective methods, such as Elo, which is designed to be predictive, and, in fact, is predictive.

    But what I’ve been saying all along is that if you have a panel of MMA experts, I’d be more interested in their opinions about who the best fighters are than their (inevitably) crude attempts at quantitative analysis. I’d be interested to see what a well-trained statistician with knowledge of MMA would have to say about who has the fourth-best record in the WW division.

  9. Zack says:

    JRN…what’s that line about people in glass houses? LOL you still have Chuck Liddell and Wanderlei Silva ranked in your top 10 @ LHW.

  10. JRN says:

    Yes I do, Zack. This is because they were both once top-5 fighters in their weight class, and have since only suffered losses to other high-ranked fighters. Those are the kinds of losses that shouldn’t drop a guy very far, in my opinion. Where would you have them ranked?

  11. JRN says:

    Well actually, neither Dan Henderson nor Keith Jardine was terribly high-ranked at the time they beat Wanderlei and Liddell. But even so, it takes a lot to dislodge a former #1 fighter from the top 10. I think that’s the way it should be.

    I’ll add that the top-10 rankings of Rashad Evans and Thiago Silva don’t make much sense if you don’t consider Wanderlei and Liddell to be very good wins/low-risk losses in 2008/2009.

  12. Zack says:

    Well….Liddell is supposedly retired and hasn’t won a fight in almost 2 years at LHW. He’s 1-4 in his ast 5. Wanderlei is one of my favorite fighters of all time, but he’s also 1-4 in his last five fights, and isn’t even fighting at LHW anymore.

    So yea…I’d have both unranked in the LHW division. They are both still the 2 most accomplished LHW’s of all time…but as of now, they shouldn’t be ranked in that division.

  13. Isaiah says:

    Losses should generally lead to a much bigger drop than they are, imo. Especially multiple losses, even to good opponents, because there is an element of chance in outcomes and uncertainty in rankings. There’s really almost no way a guy who is 1-4 in his last five fights is a top-10 fighter in his division, regardless of who he’s been losing to.

    Likewise, a long winning streak against decent but not great competition says a lot about a fighter. If you have an 80% chance of beating someone, there is almost a 50/50 chance that you’ll lose once in three fights. So if you put up say 10 straight wins against borderline top-20 competition, that says that it’s very likely that you’re significantly better than that level, and could justify putting you in the top 10, depending on other factors.

  14. JRN says:

    Wanderlei and Liddell are both active at LHW in the past year, and I don’t believe for a second that Liddell is actually retired (though that might be the best move for him). So I keep ranking them.

    Isaiah, I just don’t share your views regarding losses and win streaks. I used to, but then I thought about it a little more. A win streak is a fine thing, but unless it contains some wins over higher-ranked fighters, it’s not going to move you up very much in my book, probabilities be damned.

    Likewise, I don’t feel I can justify moving Wanderlei Silva behind guys like Thiago Silva and Gegard Mousasi just because Wand has lost to a handful of elites in the past few years. (Keep in mind I’m not counting the Rich Franklin fight at 195.)

    It’s easy to look at the totality of his career in the past three years and say he shouldn’t be top 10, but think about what you’d do with his ranking after each loss individually. How far down do you move him after Henderson? After Liddell? After Jardine? After Jackson? Bearing in mind, each time, where each of those opponents is ranked.

    After which losses do you do you move him down 3 or 5 places, and eventually out of the top 10 or 15 entirely? I just don’t see any justification for it, other than a sort of holistic “he lost a few, so he’s gone” approach. I can’t get with that.

    In any event, he probably won’t have competed at LHW again by the end of December.

  15. Isaiah says:

    Well, Silva didn’t lose to Jardine, and if he had, that should move him down pretty far because Jardine is probably not top 10 himself. Also, I’d consider a fight at 195 to be a LHW fight, as it is over the MW limit and under the LHW limit.

    And really if he’s losing to every non-Jardine fighter he faces over five fights, it’s almost unimaginable to me that there aren’t at least 10 guys who should be rated ahead of him. He’s basically an automatic win for any decent opponent at this point in his career.

  16. The Gaijin says:

    For the last time people, a “catch weight” bout is still within a weight class. Therefore a 195lb catch weight fight is a LHW fight as it falls within the 186 – 205lb window for LHW fights.

    I don’t understand what’s so tough to figure out.

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