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(UFC 106) A question or two about the Nevada State Athletic Commission
By Zach Arnold | November 22, 2009
We know fighters tend to exaggerate certain things when they speak in public (shocking, I know). However, something has been bothering me ever since the end of the UFC 106 show on Saturday night. In the post-fight interviews, we had Forrest Griffin admitting he had a foot injury (broken foot) and Tito Ortiz claiming that he had bulging disc issues and a “skull fracture,” whatever that means.
Even if the fighters are overplaying the severity of the injuries they suffered during training, the fact remains that both guys were hurt going into Saturday’s fight. These are injuries that, if I was a doctor, I would take a look at and seriously considering preventing one or both guys from doing the fight.
Which ultimately leads me to the following: If the Nevada athletic commission, in theory, is supposed to protect the fighters and promote fighter safety, then why did they allow either fighter to partake in Saturday’s night bouts if the injuries are remotely as serious as being mentioned? Just because fighters readily admit after bouts that they had something wrong with them physically does not mean that it absolves the athletic commission from being possibly derelict in its duties. What if a serious injury had happened to Ortiz during the UFC 106 fight that damaged his ability to fight in the future or live a normal life and it was later revealed that he went into the fight with a spinal injury? Would anyone care about the role of the athletic commission in terms of inspecting fighters before a big event like this?
As an athletic commission, you are either there to protect the fighters or you are not. Half-assing it may be done around the country, but it’s not an acceptable standard of judgment in my book.
Anyone else in the media interested in writing about this topic?
Related: UFC 106 turns into an embarrassment for the Nevada State Athletic Commission
Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 44 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
They can’t do anything if it’s not disclosed by the fighters. Plus, they are adults. They can handle themselves. Neither have a shady track record.
You have a good point but there’s only so much they can do.
Even if the NSAC inspectors or commissioner asked Tito or Forrest after the fight during the post-fight quick physical or right after they take their piss test about the injuries they’ve publicly announced to the world in the cage, all either guy would say is “Oh, I didn’t really have those injuries. It was just a part of the show to say that to make myself look better” (or whatever).
An excellent question Zach, and the correllary is, what exactly occurs during the pre-fight physical?
It is indeed against the rules of the NSAC for a licensee to lie to an NSAC doctor about pre-fight injuries, and the NSAC re-affirmed this fact at a public meeting earlier this year.
I just posted an article on my blog about that particular blunder, as well as many other NSAC blunders before and during UFC 106.
UFC 106 Turns into an Embarrassment for the Nevada State Athletic Commission: http://www.ivansblog.com/2009/11/ufc-106-turns-into-embarrassment-for.html
Well, obviously Tito could feel safe fighting with a fractured skull because it’s not like Forrest Griffin is known for his deadly impact.
I’ll buy Forrest’s injuries, but Tito is a liar, every time he loses there’s some phantom injury he admits he had. Notice when he wins (which was last…..um…..) he’s perfectly healthy.
But really, would anybody surprised if Dana gave them a wink, whink, nudge, nudge to show up anyway? Imagine if that fight got canceled after everything else. I guess Koscheck-Johnson would have been the “$45 Fight Night” main event?
There are plenty of cases where the UFC knows about a fighter’s significant injury or illness before a fight and doesn’t pull them from the fight. Sometimes they even acknowledge it publicly after the fight is over, such as with Nogueira’s staph infection in the Mir fight, or Sanchez’ staph infection in the Koscheck fight.
In some cases, not only do they know about a fighter’s significant injury going into a fight, but they actually strongly encourage the fighter to fight even with the significant injury.
One example of that, as reported at the time by Meltzer, was when Thiago Alves had an ankle injury that severely limited his training before the Matt Hughes fight, and he was strongly encouraged to not pull out of the fight because there had already been so many changes to that event.
Okay…. Let’s think this one through for a minute….
1) Every sport has athletes going out there injured. It’s part of being an athlete.
2) Obviously if a fighter is collapsing backstage or has a heart issue that is found before the fight, the comission is there to step in. But they can’t stop a fight for certain injuries if a fighter is willing to fight. Yes, technically they have the power to do so, but there is also a difference between how the rules and written and how they are enforced.
3) At the end of the day, this is a complete non-issue. Neither had brain or organ issues going on before the fight. They were all bone related. And if the UFC wants ten to fight, the fighters want to fight, the NSAC wants the money for the event, and Las Vegas needs a good crowd for the weekend…. This will never in a millionaire years be enforced.
Nice try at making it an issue, but it just isn’t. And Why would any athletic comission penalize a fighter for not disclosing an injury? That’s a slippery slope to start enforcing that rule.
And the major thing is, if by some small chance Tito Ortiz is telling the truth about fighting with a cracked skull, doing that could have killed him and therefore possibly crippled MMA after the first UFC death. Imagine if Tito Ortiz, one of the biggest stars in MMA history, whose wife was just on Oprah, died and the media circus that would surround the UFC. It would make the John McCain negative press look like fluff pieces. He should be suspended indefinitely if he honestly did fight with a fractured skull or reprimanded for lying about something so serious.
I think Ivan’s take on Karo Parisyan was a tad simplistic. I thought the key line from Dave Meltzer’s update on the situation was: “He was told that if his doctor wrote a letter, understanding he was going to have to fight, and sent it to the commisison doctor, that the two doctors could work it out”. Parisyan’s problem wasn’t that he was taking prescription painkillers, more that his doctor couldn’t cover for the amounts he was taking because he’s an addict. But this begs the question what agreement did the commission’s doctor come to with Griffin’s doctor and Ortiz’s doctor, because I doubt you could fight with a broken foot or a bulging disc without the use of some prescription pain medication before the fight.
Athletic commission is a fancy way of saying rubber stamp
There is plenty they can do about it, theoretically.
I went into a fight with a fractured knuckle once and during the pre-fight physical the doc started having me squeeze his finger. I was able to grit my teeth just long enough to fake my way through it. Had he persisted just a second longer, I wouldn’t have.
I’ve had so many different types of pre-fight physicals that it’s shocking that they are all called the same thing. They range from perfunctory to semi-extensive.
Another time, I was extremely dehydrated at the pre-fight physical and had just run 3 miles in the humid heat of downtown Houston in a last-ditch effort to make weight. As a result of the effort, my blood pressure was temporarily astronomical. The doc let me weigh in, get some food and water in me, and then took my BP again. It was still up there, but nowhere near where it was. That has always been fairly scary for me to think about.
/end old man stories
I tend to think in this case it is just Tito Nd Forrest making noise. Everytime Tito loses he has some phantom injury just like Stefi Graf used to.
On the topic of the ineptness of the NSAC did anyone else catch the argument between Mario Yamasaki and the ring physician during the Koschek fight?
After Kos said he got poked in the eye the doc came in. The mice catch the doc telling Mario Kos can’t go on because he has blurry vision. Then they argue about what the rule is. Does he have five minutes to get his vision back or is the five minutes only for groin shots.
I thought Mario made the right call restarting the fight. But you’d think these guys would both at least know what the rules were.
I can tell you from first hNd experience the ACs are not as interested in fighter safety as some fans like to pretend. All the ACs are there for is to limit the responsibility of the state in case someone dies or is severally injured. That and to collect it’s ticket fee for the state.
Jordan Breen ripped on Mario for that on Twitter, saying Nevada rules stop fights for blurred vision and 5 minute rest periods are only for groin strikes. Not to mention some brilliant Horace Grant and Dan Bobish references.
IMO they should allow recovery periods for eye pokes. I’ve been poked in the eye and cleared up much faster than how my nuts felt 5 minutes after being introduced to a knee.
Last night was like a Ric Flair greatest hits with the number of eyepokes and illegal shots…wtf was up with that?
Fortunately the fight ended before padded brass knuckles got involved.
[…] Cagewriter/Yahoo! Sports Judging controversy shrouds Griffin’s win – Globe and Mail (UFC 106) A question or two about the Nevada State Athletic Commission – Zach Arnold, FightOpinion.com After Another Loss, Sun Begins to Set on… Tito Ortiz […]
Breen’s an idiot, not that it’s breaking news. Any foul gets a 5 minute recovery period if necessary.
NAC: 467.702
If a contest or exhibition of mixed martial arts is stopped because of an accidental foul, the referee shall determine whether the unarmed combatant who has been fouled can continue or not. If the unarmed combatant’s chance of winning has not been seriously jeopardized as a result of the foul and if the foul did not involve a concussive impact to the head of the unarmed combatant who has been fouled, the referee may order the contest or exhibition continued after a recuperative interval of not more than 5 minutes.
Eye poke = Foul
Update on my NSAC article:
I previously asked the NSAC’s Executive Director, Keith Kizer, the following questions about the out-of-competition drug testing for UFC 106: “How many fighters on the UFC 106 card were tested under the NSAC’s out-of-competition drug testing program, what are the names of the aforementioned fighters, and what are the test results of those fighters?” Kizer’s response: “None.” That has been the case for the vast majority of events since the program was instituted.
Kizer also confirmed that the NSAC will not be taking any action (a fine or otherwise) against Ben Saunders, even though he punched his unconscious opponent in the head again after the referee was already pulling him off. That’s not exactly reassuring, given the fact that the NSAC’s job, first and foremost, is to protect the fighters.
Speaking of things that are embarrassing, here’s Dana White continuing to act like a jealous girlfriend in elementary school: “When asked about the prospect of signing Fedor Emelianenko, White said ‘I’ve been trying to sign that bald little fat guy for a long time.'”
That quote is from this URL: http://www.heavy.com/post/white-velasquez-talk-to-fans-at-ufc-106-qa-1781
Ivan,
You continue to try and push non issues as if they mean something.
Something tells me you have never really competed any any form of combat ever. Whether it be grappling, striking, or MMA. Anybody who has knows how hard it is to turn it off at the snap of a finger. And while you were probably too busy protesting that one small punch afterwards, you could clearly see Saunders go in the direction of Davis’s corner a minute later and apologize for the late shot. Hardly something to care about.
Outside of the late punch issue, which some people won’t even bat an eye about, I hardly think it’s a non-issue when the AC’s are showing their incompetence time and time again.
Horrible judging, dodgy drug testing practices, inept referees and questionable pre-fight physical practices are hardly something I’d call a “non-issue”.
Of course, your pea brain has turned this into a “people are saying bad stuff about the Ewe-eff-cee” issue, which is why you’re so defensive on it – but this really has very little to do with the mothership.
Is 45 going internet tough guy on us?? “You aren’t a fucking fighter, you don’t know how it is to be in the kill zone, raaar go dana!”
He is a veteran of HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLING CLASS OF 1987~!, David M, show some respect.
Class of 1986, thank you very much…
“Of course, your pea brain has turned this into a “people are saying bad stuff about the Ewe-eff-cee” issue, which is why you’re so defensive on it – but this really has very little to do with the mothership.”
Hardly. This has nothing to do with the UFC. It has to do with a bunch of internet geeks thinking that this stuff matters. If Forrest and Tito want to fight… And they are not at danger of having a life disabiling incident… I don’t see the problem here. Let them fight. I bet if we polled fighters and asked them if they withheld information from the commission when asked, I wouldn’t be shocked to hear that every single one of them has at the higher levels. If the commission was doing their job by Ivan’s standards… There wouldn’t even be a sport to watch….
And I’m not sure why you are including MMA judging & refs in this discussion. It has nothing to do with it. The commissions are really at the mercy right now at the quality that is out there. It’s not like smaller shows are producing better refs or better judges. Whether it be refs, judges, or even commentators…. MMA doesn’t have that infostructure in place like they do for the fighters…. It is certainly lagging…. But that is hardly the commissions fault…
Mark,
Let me guess… You are under the legal age to drink… Am I correct? That is 400 pounds. Haven’t made up my mind yet. Potentially both, which wouldn’t be shocking either.
Oh nice – calling someone an teenager and/or 400lbs…nice. Coming from middle aged Dana White idolizing, student sodomist substitute teacher that’s really nice. Remember how much you bitched about someone making an obvious joke and said they were trolling and name calling…?
My point of adding in the reffing and judging is that the commissions are a total laughing stock 90% of the time. They certainly can do a lot about it too – yanking licenses or privileges from these joke refs and judges. Changing the way judges are reviewed (if they even are?) or making them, you know, accountable. I mean you’re all for it when they’re banning John McCarthy from all UFC events, but when it has to do with them being inept boobs – well…it’s just out of their hands because they’re at the mercy of the refs/judges and their “infostructure”.
I think there is a big difference between making fun of somebodies age or weight compared to saying that they are sodomizing teenahers. Of course, I doubt in your mind you could figure that out.
“My point of adding in the reffing and judging is that the commissions are a total laughing stock 90% of the time.”
Just like most of your points, that are crap. If they yanked licenses from the bad ones, they would be replacing them with even worse ones.
As for McCarthy…. I said he was too vocal about his opinions and that hurt his standing as a ref. That has nothing to do with the issue you are talking about.
At least you are consistent. Your posts continue to be the worst. Keep it up!! lol
I think 45 is correct, in that the vast majority of these guys are fighting with multiple injuries. I don’t think that they should be doing that and it’s going to end badly for someone at some point, but they will lose their spot assuming they don’t fight. Just look at what happened with Karo, most of this has been by his own actions, but he went from a title shot a few years back to never making it in contention again. Other supremely talented fighters such as David Terrell were dropped due to multiple injuries and cancellations, etc. Given the current environment, I think if you are booked you almost have to fight, as you lose $’s in sponsorship, favor with management, etc. Even Lidell said he was fighting on a torn ACL multiple times.
Nope. I’ve been legally drinking for 6 years.
Nope. Half that. But if we want to play assumption games I can assume you identify with Andy Stitzer.
I think the best post in this thread was whoever said that the athletic commissions are rubber stamps. They let Nog and Diego fight with staph, they miss injuries all the time…they just have to exhibit a reasonable standard of care and they are beyond legal liability. It isn’t in any state AC’s interest to prevent star fighters from fighting? Why? Because if Dana thinks that his stars will be prevented from fighting the day before the fight by an overzealous AC, he won’t come back to the state.
What if the fighters were forced to wear some sort of protective goggles to avoid serious eye poke issues? This would leave the gloves alone to keep grappling ability intact.
“I think there is a big difference between making fun of somebodies age or weight compared to saying that they are sodomizing teenahers. Of course, I doubt in your mind you could figure that out.”
Both are insults that have nothing to do with the content of the commenter’s, both are meant as a way to belittle and mock the other. There’s little difference in the context that both arose.
“Just like most of your points, that are crap. If they yanked licenses from the bad ones, they would be replacing them with even worse ones.”
Yeah that makes tonnes of sense…maybe they could be training and bringing along better judges? Maybe they could bring judges from out of state that are actually good? How do you know these other judges are bad if they’ve never been given the chance – and your alternative is to…just keep the bad ones? That’s a nice little “fear mongering” tactic friend.
“At least you are consistent. Your posts continue to be the worst. Keep it up!! lol”
Yeah, consistently pointing out the horseshit dribble that comes out of your brain…I know the points are the “worst” in your mind because they don’t compute with your fanboy inclinations…but I guess I couldn’t expect your substitute teacher level intellect to be able to figure out these difficult concepts. Not that you’re there for that anyways.
“At least you are consistent. Your posts continue to be the worst. Keep it up!! lol”
Make sure you keep up telling us how 5.5 million viewers for an mma show is “bad for mma” or how Gina Carano is bad for the sport or any other of your biased, irrational and non-sensical nutswinger rants you come up with day after day. I know I’m not just speaking for myself when I say your idiocy and horrendous grammar (embarrassing from a 40 year old ‘teacher’ no less) provide endless amounts of hilarious entertainment. Please, please, never stop posting from your mom’s basement…maybe one day mmalogic will invite you to have an internet chat with him!
Maybe you should go check out Dana’s thoughts on the judging situation re the athletic commissions. I’ll be chuckling when you pull the 180 now that Zuffa is even acknowledging how embarrassing it is and how they’re working to help make the necessary changes.
But oh my – they can’t train and bring in NEW judges – they’re even WORSE than the shitty ones that no one is doing things about!!
Only you care what Dana White says on this topic. I’ve read what he has said, and it is kind of pointless. Just like Rogan complaining about the judging criteria.
They both complain without a real solution to it. If either of them logicially looked at the situation, there isn’t much they can do to change anything over the next year.
Every suggestion for judging criteria would either turn it into point fighting and be so abstract that it is impossible to follow.
And the UFC could start a school for refs and judges…. But then there is that whole conflict of interest thing (even if once those guys graduate they are not paid by the UFC). But even if they started that tomorrow, it wouldn’t pay dividends for another 2 to 3 years.
What White says is nice, but unless he gives an alternative solution…. His complaints on this topic are about as useless as every single one of your posts….
Yes – having something not pay immediate dividends is useless and should never be looked into. They should never try to fix something that can’t be done right away and just “live with it” because 2 or 3 years will never come. Such an insightful comment.
UFC doesn’t need to have a school opened. What they need is for commissions to appoint more judges with martial arts backgrounds. There are a ton of former fighters who would love the pay day to fly to Vegas a few times a month to score fights. I could see using boxing judges when MMA was still a cult-following sport, but it’s drawing more money than boxing does for commissions so it is time they at least acknowledge it’s completely different from boxing.
But of course in a bureaucracy it takes years to sign off on getting a copier fixed so who knows when that would actually happen.
With corruption, political glad handing and favours being the norm for bureaucratic institutions like those, we’ll probably never see change without some serious pressure from a cash-cow like the UFC that keeps their coffers full. These judges are friends of commission members or there for a favour to someone or something and they enjoy their cushy little corner in these worlds – they’re not going to voluntarily give them up or put any effort into improving, because judging for some of these clowns is just an ancilliary annoyance to their position.
In a perfect world, they’d threaten to stay away from certain states that are so pathetic until they straighten up their act, but when Cali and NV are local and friendly confines that’s a tough threat to pull off.
This flaming that you are doing 45 Huddle is even worse than you normally do.
I cannot believe the things that you are saying now.
45 Huddle is starting to lose his mind and it’s hilarious.
I don’t think it’s hilarious. I think it has been ruining my enjoyment of the site for a long time, and that’s a shame because it’s otherwise a great site.
Eh, if he cracks and ends up in the nuthouse there’s 3 other posters here to take his spot.
How ’bout that wonderful 400,000 viewer rating WEC got. Surely this is a key to getting UFC on NBC.
I’ll have to back Huddle on this one. Until someone with a high-profile does die in the octagon, this is a non-issue.
It’s nice to think that commissions are there to look out for fighters and to keep promoters honest and straight, but they’re not. For Zuffa and other MMA promoters, commissions exist to give them “legitimacy”. Remember the accusation of “human cock-fighting”? The commissions exist to provide bureaucrats an addition to their resumes, and to ensure that they always take their cut.
At this point in that game, we’re all lucky that these government bureaucracies even function as well as they do.