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The limitations of the CBS/Showtime model for Strikeforce
By Zach Arnold | November 9, 2009
Over at the Heavy web site, Jonathan Snowden has an interview posted with Scott Coker after Saturday’s night show in Chicago. For all intents and purposes, I thought Coker did a good job with the show. Obviously the scheduling situation with the Mark Miller fight being canceled at the last minute on the undercard is a bad move on their part, but it’s the same type of thing that happened to Jay Hieron on the August show where he wasn’t on TV and ended up losing sponsorship money. Does the heat go on Strikeforce or should it go on CBS & Showtime? Probably the latter.
I wrote an article for MMA Memories talking about the problems that Strikeforce faces by being under the CBS/Showtime business model. There was a reason last week why I transcribed the interview Kelly Kahl did with Fanhouse. He talks a big game in terms of what CBS has done for Strikeforce in terms of promotion and either he’s a total spinner or he’s not looking at the ways to promote Strikeforce from multiple angles. Having 10-seconds ads featuring Choi Hong-Man on top of Fedor is not the way to promote him. I don’t care if you ‘flood the zone’ on NFL or SEC football games or not, that’s not effective advertising. When the whole goal is to try to promote new stars, CBS did the bare minimum on Saturday – no interviews from the fighters, a poor ad campaign leading up to the event, and no sense of either CBS or Showtime doing episodic programming with Strikeforce in the future.
If you want to be event-driven only in terms of promotion, that’s fine, UFC is that way, but Spike TV invests countless hours each week to promote the brand. Roger Goodell likes to say that he protects “the shield” (the NFL logo)… well, Dana White and Lorenzo Fertitta do a pretty good job of protecting the UFC brand. Scott Coker, at this point, finds himself at the mercy of what Showtime and CBS want to do. Sure, Kelly Kahl and company can say that Scott is the head matchmaker and that they defer to him on many decisions, but ultimately Showtime and CBS runs the show and not Strikeforce. As the ratings information comes in and we see how things play out both politically and in a business sense, you get the feeling that UFC made the right decision in not immediately giving up control in exchange for exposure on CBS.
Note in the MMA Memories article what Kahl says about the idea of working with UFC in the future.
As for Jake Shields… the only defense I can say for him for his boring fight performance is that he was lucky Chad Dawson was fighting Glen Johnson. Who’s more boring – Shields or Dawson?
Topics: Media, MMA, StrikeForce, Zach Arnold | 156 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
GassedOut,
What you originally said and what you are saying now are two different things. You originally forgot to say that you were speaking of a specific demographic. It makes a big difference in the numbers you were spewing.
Normally I’d agree, but that sounds pretty believable. Dana has a total madonna-whore complex with MMA fighters. And when a guy like Fedor (or Rampage or Dan Henderson or Frank Shamrock or Brett Rogers or Andrei Arlovski or Gomi or any other MMA fighter he says sucks) are in his presence he goes into total ass-kiss mode. And I’m sure, even though Fedor doesn’t understand English that well, M-1 keeps him posted on all of Dana’s comments. And Dana’s belief is “oh well, I can say whatever I want because I have the power”, but it’s backfiring here.
Does anybody have faith in Fedor’s management to actually translate things properly?
If you say so 45.
Mark, there’s an interview with Lorretta Hunt over on Sherdog. He comments about that a little.
Dana is just being Dana, I suspect. He’s done it before and he’ll do it again. And love him or hate him, everyone stops to hear him. And really…him being Dana, I expect nothing else. (I actually kinda like him a weird sort of way. He certainly doesn’t pull any punches. Too bad about the spin he’s trying to use here.)
Why would they need to lie to make any of the statements worse? Repeating them as they are is more than enough. Why would you want to work for someone who goes on record say he has absolutely no respect for you?
Dana “not pulling any punches” is one thing. Insulting people just because they don’t work for you is another. Imagine a Delta Airlines executive giving an interview bashing an American Airlines employee just because he turned down a job. Or a sports team owner giving an interview saying a player who had an impressive game really sucks and is overpraised by the media. Or a movie director giving an interview saying an actor who turned down a role in his movie did it because he knew he’d look bad in direct comparison with more talent actors. They don’t because that’s incredibly immature. It’s carny bullshit. He’s 40 years old, it’s time to stop acting like a 14 year old. I’ll bet his kids are more mature than he is.
Dana says those things because he knows they’ll be repeated almost instantly and universally in the media for this sport. For as long as its existed, it hasn’t learned to do something with those quotes other than to splash them up with like 3 paragraphs of text giving an opinion to whatever crazy thing he says next. Well, I take that back. They’ve learned *to* do that because its helped generate traffic and is a lot easier than calling for interviews or whatever.
As for Sengoku/K-1, uh, is this supposed to be upsetting? About this time last year we were all talking about how Sengoku seemed to be extraneous; Why was it there? Did we need Sengoku? It worked as a solid sort of B-tier show, but let’s face it. Japan is far, far better off with one big show than two middling ones that struggle to fill out their cards. If it is done, well, thanks for the memories Sengoku. See your guys in DREAM along with the sponsors and hopefully some houses that are closer to full.
Do you think Sengoku closes up shop now?
The rumors seem to be that they’re killing the promotion, Don Quiote is moving over to sponsor DREAM, and the talent is transferring accordingly. Honestly, me? Not very bothered. Maybe that is because I’m not Omigawa or someone like that who depends on Sengoku existing for good paying work because I’m so mediocre.
In other rumor-centric news: supposedly Renzo Gracie signed for a fight with Matt Hughes in 2010.
I wondered aloud to myself about who exactly the UFC would bring in for Hughes to fight, and Renzo is probably about the best pick out there. I mean, its a pointless affair and in many ways displays the problems with the UFC’s ability to create new stars through PPV, much like you’ve seen in countless boxing PPVs over the last couple of years.
It would have been a must-see fight 8 years ago. But I wonder how many UFC fans even know who Renzo is. Are they banking on them remembering the 60 Minutes special 4 years later? Or that a generation of fans who only know the Gracie name from Hughes destroying Royce giving a crap? It’s interesting that they’d do this now, as there was a long period of time Renzo was a free agent that they could have brought him in after he stopped working for PRIDE.
You’re right; 8 years ago it was a fight, but there was no market for it in America to make it worth the UFC’s while, and Hughes wasn’t someone PRIDE wanted to spend money on.
Hughes is a washed up ex-champ who’s talents are best used fighting other washed up ex-champs in meaningless moneymaker bouts for the next 3-4 years. Occasionally, you can move him out of that and into a title shot he doesn’t deserve, he’ll get creamed, and we restart from there and back to the Pat Miletches and Frank Shamrocks. Is that healthy for MMA to be relying on an increasingly old and immobile fighter? Probably not. But you have to recognize that this was inevitable.
Alan, I agree, but I personally still find that fight interesting. It’s kind of like the Chuck/Wandy fight in my thinking. Both are aging veterans, neither is in their prime any more, but Chuck/Wandy was a barn burner. I’m thinking there is a possibility here too. Maybe not…but there’s the possibility.
I am happy to hear Sengoku is closing up shop. Japan has enough 2nd tier shows to filter into DREAM only now. That is the biggest problem with the American market. Nobody is a good feeder system for the UFC. That is mostly to blame on TV guys who don’t want quality young MMA talent. That’s why I feel like the WEC talent merging is inevitable. Zuffa is forced to create that 2nd tier themselves and probably can dangle enough intangibles over a smaller TV network to get it done.
As for Hughes vs. Gracie…. That fight will sell very well. They can build it up as Renzo defending the family name and then show some of the UFC footage.
Aa for the matchmaking…. I have no problem with this sort of Legends Fight as long as it doesn’t get interwoven with the real talent if the division. Zuffa wants to do this for Hughes for the next year, it will only help get more eyes on cards with the real contenders. Now, if Hughes then gets a title shit after all of this, that is when the problem happens and it will be crap.
I wish Hughes were fighting Anthony Johnson instead. AJ has major star potential, he just needs to get a win over a star instead of jobbers who look 2 weight classes smaller than him and have no name value. I think AJ would crush Hughes, and that would give him some serious momentum/buzz, like Alves got after crushing Hughes. I can’t tell if the UFC is expecting AJ to beat Koscheck or vice versa, but it is a silly fight either way when a guy like Hughes is available to lose to either of them.
Aa for the matchmaking…. I have no problem with this sort of Legends Fight as long as it doesn’t get interwoven with the real talent if the division.
So, if Matt Hughes wins this and ends up fighting Anderson Silva (a real possibility, mind you), we’ll hear criticism of it instead of talk about how awesome the buyrate is? I just want to have this on record.
If Sengoku closes up shop where will Satoshi Ishii go? Dream the most likely destination?
Two comments for record for Alan….
If Matt Hughes beats Renzo Gracie and then gets a title shot of any sort in his next fight, it is complete and total BS.
If Randy Couture beats Brandon Vera and then gets a title shot if any sort in his next fight, it is complete and total BS.
Sadly, I think the Couture one is going to happen if he wins on Saturday. That stinks.
I wish Hughes were fighting Anthony Johnson instead.
Matt Hughes fights to make money. He makes no money fighting Anthony Johnson. He probably loses to Anthony Johnson, which means he makes less money in the future. So, yeah. Not gonna happen. Or Kos. Or Swick. Or really, anyone else.
Sadly, I think the Couture one is going to happen if he wins on Saturday. That stinks.
It will totally happen if he wins on Saturday, and Shogun will be fighting someone dangerous for like 50K. Of course, he’s not gonna win….
Alan are you implying that Hughes vs Gracie will be a headliner? I doubt it will, so the buyrate (and thus Hughes’ ppv bonus, if he gets one, and I assume he does) would be more tied to the main event. Further, I think at this point a lot more people know who AJ and Koscheck are than who Renzo is. If Hughes has a fight by fight contract, then I understand why he would turn down lots of fights and take this fight, but if he has multiple fights left on his contract, then his guaranteed pay for a fight vs Renzo isn’t going to be different than for a fight vs AJ or Kos. However I will freely admit that if Hughes is fighting just to get his win bonus, then fighting Renzo is the smarter choice.
There are 3 possible outcomes for Vera-Couture:
1. Couture wins—great for business, Randy is given a title shot against Machida, everyone is happy.
2. Vera KO’s Randy. He looks impressive, he is marketed as a legend killer, and given a title shot against Machida which will do good business, and everyone is happy.
3. Vera looks average and eeks out a boring decision over Randy. This is the worst situation because nobody would pay to see Vera version 2.0 (the boring version) fight Machida, because both are counter fighters. This result wouldn’t surprise me because Vera has no killer instinct and is a horrible boxer, but Randy is almost 50.
Vera has good low kicks but lets not forget he literally got out-quicked by Tim Sylvia. Tim has faster hands than “The Lie” does. Vera is terrified of engaging in punching range; if he is in a fight where he can be punched, he will lose.
Couture will hopefully win and get a title shot. I would rather see Couture fight Machida than anyone else fight Machida because of his wrestling acumen.
Alan are you implying that Hughes vs Gracie will be a headliner?
At worst, its a coheadliner. Looking at who is available to fight, it will probably headline UFC 109.
Further, I think at this point a lot more people know who AJ and Koscheck are than who Renzo is.
Renzo has a very, very important name. Its cache someone like Koscheck can’t have. Plus, he’s beatable.
Further, I think at this point a lot more people know who AJ and Koscheck are than who Renzo is.
They are all fight by fight contracts. If Hughes loses, the UFC will have the option of cutting the amount of money he gets or cutting him completely from the roster. Hughes has made it clear in interviews he believes he’s contracted for more fights than he will have for the rest of his professional career. This is not someone thinking about trying to make a run at a title and then defending it multiple times. This is a guy looking to make retirement money, as well he should. He’s broken down. Anything else would be delusional.
I have no care to see Matt Hughes fight Anthony Johnson. I have already seen Ken Shamrock, Chuck Liddell, and Randy Couture lose enough brain cells…. Let’s not add Matt Hughes to that list. In general, legends like them should be retired so they don’t have to take the abuse. Hughes/Renzo is one of those fights that is the exception to that rule as both are more grapplers.
I am rooting for Brandon Vera just so we don’t have to see the absolutely destruction that would be Machida/Couture. Speed vs. No-Reflexes is never a pretty sight. But did anybody see pictures of Couture before this fight? Holy jumping HGH. The guy gets more and more ripped as he edges closer to 50.
As for Matt Hughes…. I was watching the behind the scenes stuff on the DVD for his fight with Matt Serra. He openly admits he doesn’t have the fire in him like he did when he was younger. He equates a lot of it to having children and his priorities changing. The age doesn’t help either.
I think Hughes beats Renzo pretty easily. I hope he retires after that.
Bad timing for Renzo to make a deal with the UFC. He should’ve done it earlier because his biographical DVD was really lacking by not having any Pride footage to show.
I definitely want to see Hughes in there against AJ or Swick or someone else who will hurt him. He is easily one of my least favorite fighters not only because of how much of a cocky bully he is, but because of his autobiography, where he talks about torturing animals. A nice concussion from a head kick. would be a great way to see his career end.
“Bad timing for Renzo to make a deal with the UFC. He should’ve done it earlier because his biographical DVD was really lacking by not having any Pride footage to show.”
Not really. Now Renzo can make more money by releasing the extended ultimate edition directors cut of the DVD!
Hughes-Gracie will not sell for several reasons
1) Renzo Gracie has never been relevant in America (unfortunately, because he’s my favorite of the Gracie family) and cannot be made relevant overnight in the twilight of his career. Renzo is full of charisma and I’m sure will have some gems for quotes on the Countdown show, but he’s a 42 year old man having his first fight after the Frank Shamrock fight everybody forgot even happened 3 years ago.
2) Matt Hughes is clearly not going to be a Randy Couture whose career is better in its later stages than in his earlier stages. He clearly peaked a few years ago and passed the torch to GSP. And his fan interest dropped off significantly after losing to GSP the second time.
3) The Gracie Family aura to Zuffa-era fans is pretty meaningless for the most part. Royce Gracie is a distant historical figure to them. And they only know of maybe Helio from the coverage his death got. Rickson, Renzo, Royler, Ralph, Rodrigo and Ryan are vaguely known to non-hardcores. Renzo is Royce’s cousin, nobody would care all that much if Frank Mir’s cousin Rocco came in to fight Lesnar.
4) MMA has shown that it is clearly a “in the moment” sport with no room for nostalgia. And the fans have shown countless times they only buy fights with an uncertain outcome. They won’t believe Renzo can survive Hughes’ power.
But I hope I’m wrong because I’d love for Renzo to get a nice last run in the spotlight.
Renzo Gracie has never been relevant in America
It doesn’t matter. His name is Gracie. And its easy to hype him up as a legit talent because he is.
Matt Hughes is clearly not going to be a Randy Couture whose career is better in its later stages than in his earlier stages.
Everyone knows this. It doesn’t matter. People bought that last UFC Liddell fought on even though he was washed up. They’ll buy his next PPV too.
The Gracie Family aura to Zuffa-era fans is pretty meaningless for the most part.
Ridiculous. Royce/Hughes shot the UFC on its current trajectory.
In any case, it doesn’t matter. Its clearly being positioned to be a headliner. What else can they put on UFC 109?
There is an article up on BE by Mike Rome discussing in-depth more of Fedor’s contract with Affliction.
1. Fedor got $300,000 per fight.
2. M-1 got $1.2 Million “consulting” fee.
Somebody figured out that even if you factor in Fedor’s ownership of M-1, it’s a 64/36 split…. Which means M-1 got almost 2/3rds of the money.
Are there any doubts anymore of what is going on with his managers? Was the 20 leaches coming into the cage after the fight just the icing on the cake?
Assuming Fedor gets 20 percent of that fee because he is the 20 percent owner of M-1 seems kind of naive.
I’m guessing the bulk of that “consulting fee” ends up with Fedor one way or another.
Ivan Trembow makes a HUGE point about Marloes Coenen…how do you not fit a one-minute friggin’ fight into a multiple hour telecast, when you’re trying to build a contender for Cyborg?!? They aren’t trying is the reality, clueless. And Miller/Davis doesn’t happen at all. This is all very bizarre and much like the world of network television, where endless amounts of time and money are wasted with mostly half-assed results.
Irregardless, though, it was a helluva show! And to 45 Huddle’s earlier point on Miller/Shields. I LOVED that fight, really, like it didn’t require an effort for me to thoroughly enjoy it. I do enjoy submission grappling, though, I can easily stay awake for 6 hours of ADCC. So it seems this is where our tastes differ. Personally, I enjoy all types of fighting from sumo to karate. So when you say it’s boring, that’s your perspective, it certainly doesn’t make your opinion wrong, but nor does it make me or others goofy for naming Shields/Miller Fight of the Night. Just sayin’ and definitely not trying to argue with you, cause you’ll win. Lol.
Shields gets flack, but he won. He’s the champ and we’re not. Dana White complains of Roy Nelson being boring on TUF 10, but Jorgel Gurgel gets bonuses for having the best fights and gets fired for LOSING. It’s all very contradictory. Pro wrestling (which I also love) is about performance, MMA should be about winning, which will inevitably, but not always, be exciting.
I wasn’t assuming Fedor got 1 cent from M-1. It was just a comparison.
Fedor isn’t getting that money. The only logical way to have the money sent to a corporation instead of a fighter is to then distribute it to family members on the payroll. However, Alek Emelianenko has come out and said that Vadim is not good.
If Fedor see’s a penny of that money, I would be shocked.
But that’s all the fans who didn’t see the SEG years know of Royce: Hughes nearly submitting the submission master and then Hughes pounding him out with ease. They did a really good job of selling Royce, but that was also the end of them saying anything remotely positive about the UFC when Zuffa didn’t own it. Everything else after that was “Fighters in the 90s sucked compared to the level they’re at now and this company was a joke before we made it legitimate.” So a footnote to that mantra saying “Except this 42 year old guy you probably don’t know” can fix that?
As for what Fedor may or may not be getting paid, it’s all pointless speculation. We can speculate since Jenna Jameson took over Tito’s career she’ll split the money to her advantage he makes from the Griffin fight. And even if they did make the majority of the money who cares, that’s Fedor’s problem. He’s a grown man who can do what he wants. Maybe he doesn’t care about material possessions. Maybe it’s his way of putting money into a company he wants to build, and what’s the difference between writing a personal check to M-1 Global to keep them afloat and just directly giving a part of your purse to them. Either way, who cares what Fedor does with his money.
I’m not entirely understanding what you’re arguing. The Gracie’s criticism of the UFC format is irrelevant; no one heard it except a couple hardcore fans. The Gracie name is wildly relevant in the hands of a major promotional body like the UFC, even if its not Royce. You can build the fight with both being legends, Renzo being a better fighter than Royce, Brother’s Revenge, all that crap.
I’m arguing they’ve downgraded pre-2001 MMA so much it’s practically worthless to fans who didn’t watch MMA until the Dana Years (probably 90-95% of the audience) that nobody of that fanbase is going to care about the Gracie name anymore. They used the SEG-era legacy to their advantage from 2002-06 bringing back Royce, Shamrock, Tank and Kimo to try to get the fans from the early days re-interested, and they all were beaten by modern era MMA fighters (Tank by Mir, Shamrock by Ortiz and Franklin, Royce by Hughes) so that promotional angle is used up entirely. Renzo is going to have less of an impact than Mark Coleman’s return had.
And he’s his cousin (via being Helio’s grandnephew) not his brother. Royce’s brothers are Rickson, Royler, Rorion and Relson. But even if he was his brother, this is over a 4 year old fight that was hardly a classic and he himself has been out of the sport for 3 years.
And before people write in “I didn’t watch until 2005 but I like seeing the old stuff”, I’m not saying all of the audience doesn’t respect the 90s era, but most don’t. Notice whenever a 1 dimensional brawler like Houston Alexander or Kimbo comes in it’s snidely written off as “He sucks like the early UFC guys did.” And they also take offense when someone of that era is praised with “They’d get destroyed by [insert modern era fighter here.]”
I’m arguing they’ve downgraded pre-2001 MMA so much it’s practically worthless to fans who didn’t watch MMA until the Dana Years
You’re approaching this like the UFC is trying to create lots of title bout scenarios out of this. They’re going to approach it like its a spectacle, which it is.
Notice whenever a 1 dimensional brawler like Houston Alexander or Kimbo comes in it’s snidely written off as “He sucks like the early UFC guys did.”
A) That opinion isn’t wrong.
B) Obviously, it doesn’t matter when people say those sorts of things. There’s empirical evidence of that.
My thoughts on the Fedor/M-1 contract information:
I have to wonder if Fedor doesn’t have a side personal services contract with M-1 that pays him for each fight as well. i.e. the contract for the $300k is between Affliction and Fedor, but as it is a co-promotion, I’m interested in whether he’s also got a service contract with M-1, which could explain why they’re extracting 4x as much coin.
Other major athletes have had these before the salary cap era, so it’s not entirely impossible.
I never said it was. I originally wrote what I wrote in response to 45 saying “That fight will sell very well.” (It won’t) “They can build it up as Renzo defending the family name” (that will be 10 years removed from being remotely relevant to the sport they helped create) “and then show some of the UFC footage.” (that Renzo isn’t in but they’ll have to substitute with Sakuraba beating him and the lay n pray fights of his early PRIDE fights.) Again, this is being sold as something involved an incident that took place 4 years ago when even 4 months in MMA is treated like a distant memory. Does anybody care about the Fitch-GSP fight months removed?
It isn’t wrong but it illustrates the lack of respect for MMA 15 years ago. If a football player sucks nobody says “He plays like the 1994 era of football.” He just sucks.
Yeah, you can never believe widespread opinions.
Again, this is being sold as something involved an incident that took place 4 years ago when even 4 months in MMA is treated like a distant memory.
It doesn’t matter, just as it wouldn’t matter if Frank Shamrock/Hughes was the headliner. Its not going to sell a million PPVs but it will move tickets and be a decent middle of the road show. That’s what they’re looking for with so many guys on the shelf.
It isn’t wrong but it illustrates the lack of respect for MMA 15 years ago. If a football player sucks nobody says “He plays like the 1994 era of football.” He just sucks.
This is so incredibly wrong, I don’t know where to start. Football in 1994 wasn’t terribly far off from today; Sure, the run and shoot was big instead of the spread offense, the 3-4 was still being developed, and so on, but overall, we’re not talking about a quantum leap here. Where we are with MMA now compared to 1994 is basically a quantum leap. This is not MMA’s final form or as advanced as it will get, but its leagues more advanced than Tank Abbott, which is who Kimbo Slice most closely mirrors in terms of ascernable skills. Actually, I also take that back. Tank could wrestle too.
A better comparison would be to say that someone plays like they’re in the 1940s. People say that about Jamarcus Russell because his numbers are among the worst in the modern era of the sport.
Yeah, you can never believe widespread opinions.
They’re opinions spread online among knowledgable long time fans. That is fine and dandy. The millions who tuned into TUF for Kimbo and promptly tuned out when he lost establish that him having been exposed as ostensibly talentless at the hands of a mediocre journeyman meant little compared to the already established character of Badass Streetfighting Afro-American Criminal Stereotype. But each loss brings him closer to being recognized as a total fraud. Since he never really beat anyone to start with, the fall he will assuredly have will be far more abrupt than the one Hughes, Couture, and Liddell are slowly tumbling down.
Whether it’s a right opinion or wrong opinion doesn’t matter, it’s that it’s the opinion of a large number of people who pay for the product. Comparing them to Kimbo fans is not a good comparison because the “nobody from the 20th century fighting in MMA was that great” is much more widespread than “KIMBO ROOLZ”. And has existed for far longer than Kimbo’s 15 minutes of fame can hope to.
You’re looking at this through the eyes of a hardcore fan. The newer fans (ask any of them or see what they write on message boards) see the Gracie family as fighters who dominated because nobody knew how Jiu Jitsu worked, and as soon as fighters began catching on they disappeared. Royce left the UFC and was out of the sport for 5 years, Rickson disappeared and turned down some huge money offers from PRIDE to fight Sakuraba for years and Royce’s own loss to Sakuraba signaled the end of their relevance. Fighters took what they brought to the sport and added it to their games to become more well-rounded fighters than the Gracie family could ever hope to be. It’s like Les Paul inventing the electric guitar but more people going to hear musicians who played it better than he did than caring how he played (which was stuck in the 1950s style of music he was brought up in.)
Comparing them to Kimbo fans is not a good comparison because the “nobody from the 20th century fighting in MMA was that great” is much more widespread than “KIMBO ROOLZ”.
What are you arguing? Kimbo fans outnumber the rest of the fanbase by a huge margin. He is the most famous fighter out there, bar maybe Lesnar. No one talks about fighters from 1994 because few of them are still active.
The newer fans (ask any of them or see what they write on message boards) see the Gracie family as fighters who dominated because nobody knew how Jiu Jitsu worked, and as soon as fighters began catching on they disappeared.
The majority of people watching this sport don’t post on message boards.
Looks like its all irrelevant anyhow. Renzo says there’s no fight happening until later in the year. So, UFC 109 will have….uhhh…no clear main event. Hey, if you want to schedule 12 PPVs a year in advance of having fights for them, them’s the breaks.
But he’s short term. He’ll inevitably lose enough to get cut by 2011. Or sooner. The “original UFC fighters weren’t that good” opinion has lasted nearly 10 years.
In comparison situations (such as a Gracie fighting) they would. Modern era vs. original era debates are quite common.
It doesn’t mean they don’t share the same opinions. Even Matt Hughes is considered old, and he was still only behind Ortiz and Liddell in popularity 3 years ago. How a older guy who wasn’t even actively fighting during that time is going to excite fans is a strange viewpoint. If the fight did anything above what UFC 102 did I’d be absolutely shocked.
But he’s short term. He’ll inevitably lose enough to get cut by 2011. Or sooner. The “original UFC fighters weren’t that good” opinion has lasted nearly 10 years.
He’s not going to be cut because of that opinion. He’s going to be cut because he really is as limited as many of those fighters were, and as a result, will be punished badly by a far deeper field of competitors in the present day, until which the day arrives that he is no longer marketable (which is when he will be jettisoned).
In comparison situations (such as a Gracie fighting) they would. Modern era vs. original era debates are quite common.
Where? Sherdog? Sherdog is irrelevant.
It doesn’t mean they don’t share the same opinions. Even Matt Hughes is considered old, and he was still only behind Ortiz and Liddell in popularity 3 years ago.
Matt Hughes is considered old because he is. His career is near completion. He admits it. Ortiz is old too. Liddell is old too. What is impossible to grasp? As such, just feeding them to young fighters is not something they’re going to want to do. There’s no money in that. There’s a reason Tito went from Coleman to Griffin instead of fighting Luis Cane.
Man, your reading comprehension sucks today. I said he’ll be cut when he loses so many times they can’t justify keeping him anymore. That’s not an opinion, that’s fact.
Really? It’s a really large community that whether you think they’re mostly comprised of idiots or not (and I’d hardly confuse the place with a Mensa website) the power of numbers makes it very relevant.
Message boards are like a poll: if you see a trend of a large number of people out of a sample poll all saying the same thing, then you can assume it’s a widespread opinion.
That you can’t grasp that I can’t grasp you grasping the thought this Senior’s Circuit fight is going to have a large number of people grasping their telephones or remote controls to order it?
Look at what Rashad Evans knocking out Chuck Liddell did for him. He instantly became a superstar. Should they have wasted that fight on Liddell vs. Randleman II? Why not run Koscheck-Hughes or Fitch-Hughes or Swick-Hughes instead of “UFC 109: Age In The Cage.”
You have to have some kind of legitimacy, so Luis Cane who isn’t popular by any stretch of the imagination right now wouldn’t benefit from fighting Tito. But someone with legitimacy who just needs that extra boost to put them over the top would be far wiser than giving him Grandpa Coleman.
“Message boards are like a poll: if you see a trend of a large number of people out of a sample poll all saying the same thing, then you can assume it’s a widespread opinion.”
Message boards are a suedo reality that have very little basis of real life.
How many organizations tried to cater to the needs of these message boards? The IFL, Affliction, Bodog, EliteXC… The list continues….
The UFC was also very guilty of this when they first bought the company. It wasn’t uncommon for the key memebers of the company to take what was said on The Underground and try and apply it to what they were doing with their events.
Whether it be a website concerning cars, electronics, MMA, or anything else… The needs and wants of those devoted consumers is completely different with what the main stream consumer wants in a product.
So basing anything off of that is stupid.
That doesn’t mean that your conclusion isn’t correct. I do think the UFC can sell Hughes vs. Renzo properly and make it a stron co-main event. But don’t let those message boards fool you.
It’s not a “I think IFL is better than UFC” oddball opinion, it’s a very populist opinion, though. If someone were to ask fans at the next UFC event if they care about the Gracie family in 2009 you’d get a resounding no.
Of course you like it, the UFC is doing it and they’re always correct and never wrong. But you didn’t have much respect for Shamrock-Gracie because Elite did it.
I said he’ll be cut when he loses so many times they can’t justify keeping him anymore. That’s not an opinion, that’s fact.
How does that disprove the belief that he probably isn’t better than fighters from the earliest years of the sport? You’re all over the place.
Message boards are like a poll: if you see a trend of a large number of people out of a sample poll all saying the same thing, then you can assume it’s a widespread opinion.
If message boards were relevant, than no one would have bought Shamrock/Tito II or III, or watched Kimbo ever, etc etc etc.
Look at what Rashad Evans knocking out Chuck Liddell did for him. He instantly became a superstar. Should they have wasted that fight on Liddell vs. Randleman II?
You’re absolutely right. But Liddell was looking to be in title contention. He was willing to fight Rashad Evans. This brings us to…
Why not run Koscheck-Hughes or Fitch-Hughes or Swick-Hughes instead of “UFC 109: Age In The Cage.”
Because Matt Hughes won’t fight them for the money that they’re offering. How difficult is that for you to understand? Unless the UFC is going to pay him a significantly (and 25% or so based on *potential* PPV bonuses isn’t enough) higher amount of money to fight Josh Koscheck than Renzo Gracie, it is foolish of Matt to take the fight. Period. Point blank. Matt knows it, Joe Silva knows it, Matt’s manager knows it.