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What is going on with Anderson Silva’s camp?
By Zach Arnold | October 20, 2009
Quotes from Ed Soares on Sherdog today sure seem to be indicators of some waffling about whether or not they really want to do the fight against Vitor Belfort on January 2nd. I admit, the prospects of Belfort/Silva don’t excite me a great deal, but by going back and forth on this fight Anderson’s camp is acting a little scared here. I don’t understand it.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not buying into Shawn Tompkins’ comments on Fox News Fight Game last week that Vitor Belfort could be a Top 10 boxer today. With that said, what’s the hesitancy here by Silva’s camp in just taking the booking and getting what needs to get done afterwards?
Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 60 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
At first. ¿Anderson and Vitor are friends? No?
This is nothing new from A.Silva’s camp.
Anderson has a very clear vision of what he wants: fights that will be easy to win (in his mind) and make him look heroic in the process.
He thinks he can win a high-profile boxing match, so he asked for Roy Jones Jr. (who is 40 and hasn’t exactly been on fire lately). He thinks he can beat a Heavyweight in MMA, so he asked for Frank Mir (who would likely stand with him).
There is nothing wrong with this, but these are the fights HE wants, and not what Zuffa and the MMA fans want.
Not that the MMA world is on pins and needles waiting for Belfort/Silva, but he is a credible challenger with a recognizable name…and aside from Machida, who do you pit against Silva at MW or LHW that would be a dangerous opponent?
Vitor would be boxing as a Cruiserweight which is hardly a stacked division, but still MMA striking is so much different from boxing I think every MMA fighter is vastly overrated at boxing. While they’d beat most boxers in MMA rules they’d get embarrassed under boxing rules.
So I guess Anderson Silva is the new Antichrist to Danaites now. Move over, Rampage and Hendo.
-Anderson Silva doesn’t make a ton unless he has a PPV bonus.
-Vitor Belfort isn’t a name that can generate interest and PPVs buys that would bump him over 500,000 buys and into getting a percentage.
-Anderson Silva doesn’t want to fight Vitor Belfort unless he gets paid more. Fighting Vitor only offers him the possibility of losing that which gives him the leverage. If you’re looking for a big raise, taking that fight is a retarded idea.
Alan,
I think Vitor IS a name that can generate interest. If UFC promotes him right and he keeps winning the dude has Mike Tyson type explosive KOs. Incredibly blazing fast hands and highlight reel knockouts are marketable. More so than many of the other guys in UFC, Vitor’s natural ability is something a fight marketer dreams of.
Rp
Belfort is from Brazil, speaks English as a second language, and has one fight in the UFC in the last 5 years that was to a sizeable audience. All the hype videos in the world aren’t going to build him into that guy over night.
Vitor is barely a name at this point in his career, one win over Rich Franklin on a bonus-less PPV isn’t a good sign.
Anderson is looking for big fights, so he can get paid more. It is as simple as that, plus he wants a challenge. Forrest Griffin was a top 5 UFC Light Heavy as well as one of their biggest names — and he dismantled him with ease.
He wanted Mir, Couture, etc. and they just want to give him MW title fights.
Yeah but Silva speaks French and he’s a big name. If Silva had the killer instinct to finish guys instead of toying with them we’d be talking about Silva in the same breath as GSP and possibly Lesnar as far as PPV draw capability. I think Fedor would be huge in UFC (not so much outside of it because of a lack of opposing talent and the UFC hype machine) because he gets quick, violent KOs. Even though his personality is not really ultra-marketable and his interview ability is not going to be strong.
In the fight game most of the marketing can be done on natural talent first and intangibles second. People want to see brutal KOs. Vitor provides that.
Rp
“-Anderson Silva doesn’t make a ton unless he has a PPV bonus.
-Vitor Belfort isn’t a name that can generate interest and PPVs buys that would bump him over 500,000 buys and into getting a percentage.
-Anderson Silva doesn’t want to fight Vitor Belfort unless he gets paid more. Fighting Vitor only offers him the possibility of losing that which gives him the leverage. If you’re looking for a big raise, taking that fight is a retarded idea.”
After ten consecutive wins in the UFC you would think Anderson Silva and his people would be able to market Anderson on his own to generate ppv buys. If he wants more money than he needs to earn it by bringing in more buys. it’s absurd that Anderson would get paid more because someone else brings in more buys.
Yeah but Silva speaks French and he’s a big name.
He speaks portuguese and only draws when in with guys who are considered threats. Those people are fighters with big names. Vitor Belfort is not one of those people.
In the fight game most of the marketing can be done on natural talent first and intangibles second.
None of it will stick unless the fanbase can relate to the fighter. White men 18-34 are the MMA fanbase. They do not relate to Anderson Silva.
If he wants more money than he needs to earn it by bringing in more buys.
He earns the UFC plenty of money. Much more than they pay him many times over, in fact. If the UFC prefers to pay guys PPV bonuses rather than guaranteed money, then the end effect is, as it was always going to be, that fighter will seek out first and foremost fights that will make them money, and well be less agreeable to ones that do not. It is a repeating theme. It is not going to stop, no matter how many stupid “Rampage will come crawling back” blogs are written.
Compared to Leites, Cote, Marquardt and Lutter, Vitor Belfort is Brock Lesnar. He’s not a superstar but enough fans know his reputation as a dangerous fighter when he brings his A-Game to make it the most compelling fight Anderson Silva has had as champion besides Dan Henderson. So I think this main event will be the best he’s drawn at 185.
But if he’s that concerned about PPV bonuses, he needs to relinquish the MW title after the fight and go to 205 fulltime. I’m sure UFC would rather he didn’t, though, since he’ll run the risk of cleaning out that division and refusing to fight Machida, but for him it is the best move.
Anderson’s afraid to get Rich Franklin’d
Only one title defense this year…bummer.
Compared to Leites, Cote, Marquardt and Lutter, Vitor Belfort is Brock Lesnar. He’s not a superstar but enough fans know his reputation as a dangerous fighter when he brings his A-Game to make it the most compelling fight Anderson Silva has had as champion besides Dan Henderson. So I think this main event will be the best he’s drawn at 185.
Lutter had the benefit of TUF. Vitor fought two of the last three times on PPVs everyone denigrated for being buyrate failures, won on the main event of an afterthought event, and now is going to be a major draw? Perhaps, but you guys are reaching with the speculation. There’s no evidence he actually will. Silva, Soares, & Co. don’t need to gamble any more with Silva’s career just for the selfish desires of fans.
But if he’s that concerned about PPV bonuses, he needs to relinquish the MW title after the fight and go to 205 fulltime.
You don’t get it: He CAN’T. He doesn’t have the ability to drop the belt and stop being recognized as champion. He could pull a Bowe and throw it in a trash can and it would have no effect as to his official standing with the organization contractually.
Fandom isn’t about identification it’s about ideation, being able to see fighter X, respect what they’ve done to accomplish their status, and then to be able to believe that in some alternate universe, you too might have been able to be in that position.
Machida meets that standard (trained up from boyhood to a higher standard), Rampage meets that standard (came up from a rough and tumble neighborhood out of poverty to be a wisecracking rough and ready fighter), Chuck meets it (he was an accountant for gods sake), Couture meets it (the aging canny veteran who rises to the occasion against younger opponents), GSP does (people see the incredible amounts of work that he puts in, to the point where he’s becoming top ranking in disciplines that are new to him).
Even guys like Franklin, Sherk, and to some degree Lesnar meet this standard, they’re seen as representative of the heartland, they come with different kinds of physical assets, but they’ve all made the best of what they do and they’re fighting for personal values that are seen as representative of the “traditional American ideal” in some way (family, religion, pulling yourself up and gaining respect in spite of vocal opposition, etc).
Anderson Silva does not. Anderson Silva is regarded like BJ Penn as a kind of freakish prodigy who doesn’t put in much work but still dominates people at his weight. It’s probably not true (or at least not entirely true), but I think that’s how he’s seen. His recent cage antics haven’t helped.
“Lutter had the benefit of TUF. Vitor fought two of the last three times on PPVs everyone denigrated for being buyrate failures, won on the main event of an afterthought event, and now is going to be a major draw? Perhaps, but you guys are reaching with the speculation. There’s no evidence he actually will. Silva, Soares, & Co. don’t need to gamble any more with Silva’s career just for the selfish desires of fans.”
Okay then mr matchmaker knowitall. Tell us who would be the correct person for Anderson Silva to be defending the title against?
The winner of a clearly demarcaded #1/#2 bout (Vitor/Henderson II, for instance). The winner of that will be able to be seriously hyped coming into a Anderson Silva bout.
Of course, I know the response in advance: “But, they already booked the PPV! What are they supposed to do?” Take a wild guess as to my suggestion there.
Didn’t Franklin v. Belfort draw a surprisingly high number of PPV buys? If that is the case, considering this is the 3rd PPV Franklin has headlined this year, wouldn’t you have to credit Belfort for at least part of that bump?
Jeremy, that’s one of the worst things I’ve ever read, and its disheartening because I know you thought about it before writing. Dear, the idea that fans don’t want to see elite athletes that simply mow down the opposition with ease is crazy. Those athletes are the ones that become most popular; Tiger, Joe Montana, Jordan, Ruth, Tyson, etc. But just as importantly; they were all Americans.
Anderson is a big name and has a fanbase and people want to see him, but they want to see him most often against a big American who is considered a legit threat. Its no surprise the PPV that sold the most which ever featured Anderson was his bout with Forrest Griffin, who exemplified that entering the fight.
Didn’t Franklin v. Belfort draw a surprisingly high number of PPV buys? If that is the case, considering this is the 3rd PPV Franklin has headlined this year, wouldn’t you have to credit Belfort for at least part of that bump?
I’m the wrong person to ask because I seriously doubt that they sold 400,000 PPVs, but if you believe every number given this year, its hardly a huge jump representative of Belfort’s drawing power. Franklin’s previous two fights did 360,000 (this claimed number a estimate based on an even early estimate…really!) and 320,000. If he’s worth 40,000 buys, that’s not likely enough to get Silva to the half million mark and the big bonus.
1. Anderson Silva is turning into a pain in the behind when it comes to try and pick his opponents.
2. Vitor Belfort is the biggest fight he can do right now. Belfort helped his fight with Franklin sell 400,000…. And that was with a mediocre undercard and going up against the 2nd biggest boxing PPV of the year. Belfort vs. Silva should do solid numbers. Both of them being Brazilian doesn’t mean much as Vitor doesn’t come off overly ehtnic.
Anderson Silva/Rashad Evans is a far bigger fight and he’d do that right now. Problem is that the UFC doesn’t want to do it, and won’t compensate Silva for taking a fight with someone like Belfort. Ergo: The problem at hand.
Anderson Silva has no business at Light Heavyweight unless he is willing to fight Machida. It’s as simple as that. If tomorrow he said he is willing to fight Machida, then I would love to see him vacate the Middleweight belt and move to LHW full time and fight all those new and interesting fights. Until then, Belfort is his more interesting fight.
They should absolutely not under any circumstances run another Silva vs. top-tier LHW fight. That is completely idiotic since there is no way he’s fighting Machida. So destroying the credibility of an entire division just because you want a big buyrate is self destructive. If he wants the James Irvin’s of the division for novelty fights then great. But one of the stupidest moves the UFC did in 2009 was running Silva vs. Griffin. They should have a rule reading “either totally commit to the division or no fight.”
Please don’t call me “Dear,” it’s really creepy.
MMA is a mix of fans and fight aficionados. The aficionados may appreciate Anderson Silva, but the fans don’t, and the fans outnumber the aficionados. Get used to it.
Maybe you were inspired when he showed up with a budda belly and koed Irwin in 61 seconds, but I think you’re in the minority.
So destroying the credibility of an entire division just because you want a big buyrate is self destructive.
It is! But as long as he makes the bulk of money on PPV bonuses, he’s going to call out Rashad, Liddell, Frank Mir, and an array of other guys that aren’t middleweights because they’ll make him more money.
This is up there with dudes trying to argue about Rampage on the “he doesn’t want to be a fighter” tip. So, so easily led.
MMA is a mix of fans and fight aficionados. The aficionados may appreciate Anderson Silva, but the fans don’t, and the fans outnumber the aficionados. Get used to it.
Did I not just say that the fans don’t like Anderson Silva? You border on illiterate. The problem is that you don’t understand why they don’t care about them and will flip the hell out for Kimbo, obviously, because you’re talking about how Machida (who has never been noted as a strong draw on his own) and Rampage (ditto) are representative of the same things Lesnar and Liddell are. Sad, but expected.
Now I remember why I usually try not to bother talking to you.
Yeah Jeremy, clearly the problem is that the general public can’t accept guys who are considered super-athlete prodigies who seem to effortlessly rise above their competition. That’s why Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, and Wayne Gretzky were all complete commercial failures. Oh, wait!
I’m in total agreement fighters need raises and see where you’re coming from in regards to saying that’s why he’s wanting non-MW fights.
But to play devil’s advocate (or should that be 45Huddle’s advocate since I’m sure he’ll say the same thing within the next hour) should bailout packages be given to fighters who are in uninteresting divisions? Wouldn’t additional money be better spent on bringing in new MW fighters or convincing current UFC fighters going nowhere in their division to go to 185? While I 100% agree raises should be handed out, they could make things incredibly interesting by reshuffling their divisions a little.
What if you created a remodeled MW division of Wanderlei Silva, Jon Fitch, Matt Hughes, and Thiago Alves among others. There’s probably 2 dozen guys who are stale in their divisions who could be reborn in a new one.
I can’t really feel sorry for Anderson Silva. And no, he doesn’t need bailout money…. lol.
The guy did it to himself. He fooled around for 8 rounds instead of taking the fights seriously. And in the process, completely killed his potential appeal with fight fans. Now it takes a huge megafight in order for them to care. The only problem is, those megafights aren’t in the Middleweight Division. They are at LHW. And because he is unwilling to fight the champion, he shouldn’t be allowed to have those superfights.
Silva screwed Silva.
“Yeah Jeremy, clearly the problem is that the general public can’t accept guys who are considered super-athlete prodigies who seem to effortlessly rise above their competition. That’s why Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, and Wayne Gretzky were all complete commercial failures. Oh, wait!”
But if Kobe stopped trying to score points…. Or Gretzky stopped trying to score goals….. The fans would have turned on him. What Silva did in his fights with Cote & Leitas is basically the equivalent.
The general public can’t get beyond a guy who doesn’t try….
But to play devil’s advocate (or should that be 45Huddle’s advocate since I’m sure he’ll say the same thing within the next hour) should bailout packages be given to fighters who are in uninteresting divisions?
Its not a “bailout package”. Its a pay raise based on the continued success of the UFC as a promotion. Silva sees them making lots of money while he makes comparatively little on events like this and so he wants to make more. His leverage is to deny them his services as a fighter and PPV headliner. That simple. Of course a lot of people who are very selfish about this demand that Silva should or must fight Vitor and “get it over with”, either completely blind or willingly ignorant as to how that helps his cause or what danger it provides.
Now, odds are some agreement will be reached and Silva fights Belfort. They’ll probably pull a Kevin Iole hit piece first.
But if Kobe stopped trying to score points…. Or Gretzky stopped trying to score goals….. The fans would have turned on him. What Silva did in his fights with Cote & Leitas is basically the equivalent.
Kobe can’t score 82 every night and doesn’t. Sometimes he plays poorly. The difference is that in MMA the performances are once every 3-4 months rather than every other night.
Plus the events can be explained. Silva was trying to get some rounds in against Cote because he knew he wasn’t a threat to him, but it backfired when he tore his knee and the fight was stopped. If he got the KO in round 4 everybody would have left happy. I don’t want to say the fix was in for the Leites fight, but since there was a friendship there he clearly took it easy on him (which is why even if he did agree to fight Machida with two counterstrikers that was good friends the fight would be the drizzling shits.)
Now, is he going to dick around against Belfort standing or play around in Marquardt’s guard? Definitely not. So I think calling those two bad performances something close to protest stunts is overstating it. If he’s that outraged at his division he can ask to leave it. Or they can quickly end the stand-off by promising to always put a good semi-main event to pump up buys for him like UFC 73.
Mark, he can’t leave. He can’t drop the title. If he did, the UFC can’t invoke a champion clause and he leaves to fight Roy Jones next year. If he has to stick around, he’s going to then demand the biggest money fights for himself or sit out.
Silva didn’t fight poorly. He was goating it and everybody who saw it knew it.
And Silva doesn’t have much leverage. At some point if things ever got bad enough, they would make him a formal offer to fight. If he refused, they would tie him up in court. Of course it is highly highly unlikely to ever get that bad…. But Silva has very little leverage if things got bad. Right now he is just being a cry baby.
The thing about Anderson Silva is, a lot of casual fans I know hate him. They are the same people that hate Floyd Mayweather. People just kinda hate the naturally gifted athlete who showcases their skills in a different way.
While I think Floyd and Anderson put on virtuoso performances, so what? Joe Six Pack doesn’t give a fuck if Anderson only threw one knee and instead just boxed against Forrest Griffin and beat him handily, or how against Cote and Leites he just waited for them to come in and make a mistake. He can’t win, though, because people still talk shit about the Forrest Griffin fight. Why?
Who knows.
The big difference between Floyd and Anderson is language and ability to sell a fight. Anderson has the rep of being a primadonna and this and that, but he still plays the humility card at every turn.
I really believe that Anderson is an honorable, respectable guy, that him offering his hand to a downed opponent isn’t disrespect, just a sign of respect and that he won’t pounce on them, the same with his ducking and dodging.
I see Anderson as an artist in a world full of meat heads and sportsmen and it just doesn’t always come together right.
And Silva doesn’t have much leverage. At some point if things ever got bad enough, they would make him a formal offer to fight. If he refused, they would tie him up in court.
You cannot force someone to fight if they refuse to. Period. Its not even an option. They can formally offer him anyone and its his choice to refuse those options.
No it’s not, UFC contracts are clear Anderson either fights who the UFC wants of his contract gets frozen and he’s screwed. He has no leverage with them because he’s the MW champion and he resigned with them for several more fights. So he and Soares can bitch and whine all they want but they are screwed thanks to the UFC contracts that people like to bitch about. So whether he likes it or not he’s going to fight Vitor for the MW title or he’s not going to fight anytime anywhere period.
Yes, there would have to be time period clauses on the contracts and I have never heard anything about that for any UFC fighter. Like with Randy and Tito when they went AWOL as champions, they couldn’t enforce that they defend their belts, all they could do was enforce that they not fight anywhere else. If what 45 said was the case, Tito would have been brought to court when he refused to fight Chuck Liddell in 2003 since it would be the same exact issue.
http://mmajunkie.com/news/3861/dana-white-randy-couture-offered-fight-with-antonio-rodrigo-nogueira.mma
When Randy Couture was champion and having issues with the UFC, the UFC officially announced that Couture was offered to defend his title against Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira. Why would this matter? And why would they announce this? Because of legal reasons. Nothing more, nothing less. It was part of the game that was happening between the two parties. By officially offering Couture the fight and him turning it down, they had proof that he was going against his contract. This would have helped their case if things continued to go through the court system.
As for Tito Ortiz vs. Chuck Liddell…. There were two differences (I assume). First, is that the contracts might not have been the same. Secondly, the UFC had no leverage. They were already losing money and I doubt they really wanted to financially go through all those court troubles. They also were at the whim of their stars because of Pride and because they had so few of them. Tito Ortiz had all the power and was allowed to basically get away with ducking competition because of it.
Anderson Silva is not the 2003 Tito Ortiz.
Normally this isn’t going to be an issue. Even if a fighter turns down a fight or two, it isn’t the end of the world. And it certainly isn’t going to lead to litigation. But if a fighter is just avoiding everybody the UFC puts in front of you…. Then you never know where things will lead.
Either way, Silva and his manager need to just shut up and fight already. Trying to play matchmaker in the public just makes you look like a fool.
No it’s not, UFC contracts are clear Anderson either fights who the UFC wants of his contract gets frozen and he’s screwed.
And the UFC is down another headliner to join Rampage and perhaps Matt Hughes and Dan Henderson in the “waiting to get the terms we want” crowd.
Either way, Silva and his manager need to just shut up and fight already. Trying to play matchmaker in the public just makes you look like a fool.
How does it benefit Silva’s position to take the fight? No one answers this, likely because none of them are willing to admit that it doesn’t.
He’ll take the fight when the terms suit him. Maybe the UFC can, in the meantime, create another interim title. I mean, nothing transparent or fraudulent about that, right guys?
If every fighter only took a fight when it suited him, the sport of MMA would be like boxing. It’s a garbage thought process for fighters to have. Belfort is a quality opponent. And Silva needs to defend the title.
It’s a garbage thought process for fighters to have.
That has nothing to do with Silva at all, actually, which was my point in this exercise. Its just you saying what you as a fan want. So, again, I ask: How does it help Silva’s position to take the fight with Vitor Belfort?
The Couture and Silva situations are different. Randy wanted out when he realized Fedor wasn’t coming in. He had one fight on his contract and he wanted it to be against Fedor with retirement talk afterwards. He also claimed Dana had promised him he was the highest paid UFC fighter then found out Chuck and Tito were making more so felt like he couldn’t trust Dana anymore.
Anderson Silva wants to stay, he just wants to make sure he makes the most money possible. Anderson Silva demanding Roy Jones get a UFC contract or he’s quitting would be a similar situation to Randy’s. But he’s just asking for bigger UFC stars, not an outsider demanding a huge sum of money. Randy demanding a fight with Forrest Griffin instead of Gonzaga would be similar.
I don’t necessarily know that Anderson wants to stay. If he had his way, he’d probably want to drop his belt, fight Frank Mir and whoever else that isn’t a title holder, and then head over to the world of boxing to fight Roy Jones on an indian reservation somewhere next year and get his final big payday en route to losing.
As for comparing the Randy and Tito situations:
-Tito always ended up coming back making more than he did before, even apparently this last time. The second contract dispute ended with him getting two fights with Ken Shamrock. Not exactly shabby.
-Randy also came back making more than he had before. Unlike Tito, who had to fight Liddell in his comeback, Randy got to skip Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera and purposefully chose Brock Lesnar because Lesnar would make him the most money to fight. These days, he gets most of his money up front rather than on PPV buys, which is probably why he’s fighting at UFC 105; guess what a lot of guys want? Most of their money guaranteed.
“If every fighter only took a fight when it suited him, the sport of MMA would be like boxing. It’s a garbage thought process for fighters to have.”
Without any comment on if this applies to Anderson Silva or not, I’ll say that this is, imo, inevitably where things are headed.
I literally laughed out loud when I read Ed Soares comments about Vitor not being a worthy challenger. Where were these comments when Silva was booked against Patrick Cote and Thales Leites?
Vitor dispatched of Matt Lindland and Rich Franklin in record time (well maybe Dave Terrell knocked Lindland out quicker) and before that had a decisive victory over Terry Martin.
Soares and Silva are crazy if they think Hendo or Marquardt is a better fight. That’s just looking for an easy payday in those guys.
This is the same thing that happened with Fedor’s management when Vitor was an option. Everyone that is in MMA today was in awe of Vitor at one point when he was on his early run. They’re all scared of his potential for a quick KO. Put yourself in Silva and Soares’ shoes. They saw Vitor thump Franklin easier than Anderson did.
A southpaw with one punch power is the most dangerous fighter in boxing. Vitor is brining that to MMA with a strong ground game, so he is difficult to contain.
Because of the risk in this fight they want a bunch more money up front or to avoid it all together and move up to heavyweight. If Anderson wins this fight there aren’t any big money fights at 185 outside of GSP. If he loses, he is stuck at 185 for at least another year and a half. All the big money fights for Anderson are at 205 if Shogun wins (imagine setting it up w/ Silva/Tito) or at HW where a mega fight with Brock could be built up.
I’m sure both sides are just posturing and this fight ends up happening, because UFC needs it to. Probably with an agreed upon plan for what exactly happens and how much Silva gets in his next several fights.