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More media and boxing reaction to Dana White & UFC 91
By Zach Arnold | November 17, 2008
ESPN’s Page 2 has a fascinating article profiling what it is like to be with Dana White backstage while UFC 91 is taking place. Compare and contrast White’s behavior to that of Vince McMahon.
Meanwhile, it seems some people in boxing are not happy about UFC 91’s success and are taking shots at MMA:
“When I see stuff like that, it looks like nothing more than a tough man contest,” said Todd duBoef, president of boxing promotion company Top Rank, who attended the Lesnar-Couture fight. “There’s no way it’s safer than boxing.”
Jeff Marek (formerly of Live Audio Wrestling and now with CBC Sports) is buying the Brock Lesnar experiment in a big way.
Monte Cox, meanwhile, is bullish on Jake Shields coming to UFC very soon.
Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 25 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Cox and Shields are actually unrelated in this story, they were just the two interviewed. Shields has Cesar Gracie as his agent
“Compare and contrast White’s behavior to that of Vince McMahon.”
I’m assuming that you’re being sarcastic, since the two of them are so similar.
On a related note, I was disappointed to read in the newest Wrestling Observer Newsletter that Yushin Okami vs. Dean Lister (which had already been made a prelim fight on UFC 92 in favor of a Cheick Kongo fight and a C.B. Dollaway fight on the main card) may actually be a “loser leaves town” match (a pro wrestling term meaning that the loser would leave the company).
So, not only has Okami been passed over for title shots, not only did the UFC strongly consider cutting him instead of re-signing him when his contract came up earlier this year, not only did they make his fight a prelim fight in favor of an unranked heavyweight and C.B. Dollaway, but if he loses to Lister there would be strong consideration to cutting him. Unbelievable.
Ed. — Not as exciting as C-level kickboxing?
Maybe he should plant his feet in the middle of the cage and swing wildly. Either get knocked out or take home $60,000 for FOTN.
We have 2 other reports that Lidell vs Anderson Silva will happen.
Too much too soon? We will find out but instead of good matchups they want buyrates.
Besides Lesnar and Florian, who are the main stars? Before there were Liddell, Couture, Franklin, Hughes. Now so it seems just Silva, Lesnar, Liddell.
The boxing guys just can’t grasp how MMA is safer than Boxing but that really is how it works out in the end.
Maybe this web site could clarify for them whether MMA is safer than boxing, and it’s true even if you only look at the last few years in which there has been a similar amount of MMA events and boxing events:
Boxing Fatalities Database:
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_b_0700.htm
The problem with making the claim that there has never been a similar number of fights in MMA as there are boxing in a single year. Its not even close numbers wise, even now. Its impossible when half the country has made the sport illegal and events only occur on a regular basis perhaps in perhaps 20 countries. In Japan, wheren MMA is still quite popular, we’re talking about them having more boxing matches than MMA on a standard of 7-1.
Additionally, fans refuse to count the Douglas Dedge death due to the “unsanctioned” nature of the event, but gladly count, for instance, boxing deaths in places like Kenya.
Yushin Okami is getting screwed over.
I do not like this current trend of fighters moving around to different weight classes. Pick a weight class and stick to it. This constant moving around feels like boxing. It is also very short sighted match making that will hurt the company in the long run.
People pay good money for the PPV. They don’t want to see Okami pull his usual slow methodical boring act like he did on the MAIN EVENT against Rich Franklin.
Okami screwed Okami. And I don’t see how he is getting screwed. He is still fighting. Does he make more because he is not on the televised card? Is he ineligible for bonuses?
Okami may have gotten a shot at Anderson but he hurt his hand. Whose fault is that?
I disagree.
Yushin Okami is 6-1 in the UFC. Dean Lister is 4-1. In no way should either of these guys be close to the chopping block. And Okami should have already gotten a title shot.
D Cap, are you still arguing that MMA is more dangerous than boxing?
To the newbies who are reading asking who are the stars of MMA; I will list only UFC stars here:
Nogueira, Lesnar, F Griffin, Q Jackson, R Evans, Liddell, W Silva, A Silva, R Franklin, D Henderson, GSP, Alves, Koscheck, Huerta, Floria, and BJ Penn.
Then there are up and comers like Thiago Silva, Machida, Carwin, and Valasquez. Fringe fighters like Diego Sanchez, Fitch, Marquardt, Gonzaga, and Dos Santos.
The UFC has no lack of stars at this point.
Would you like to point to when I have, cyph?
They have some names that are recognizable to their fanbase, but in terms of people who generate interest among casual observers/general public, its basically Lesnar and Griffin at the moment.
Liddell, Ortiz, Griffin, Lesnar, Couture, Penn, Rampage, Hughes, Anderson Silva, Wanderlei Silva, & GSP all have solid name recongnition amongst even casual fans. At least has been my experience. Some of the fighters have more name recongnition then others, but any of those names sells additional PPV’s pretty well these days.
Then there is the second tier… Fighters who don’t sell PPV’s as well, but their names on cards give it more credibility and bulk. The list is: Nogueira, Mir, Evans, Bisping, Leben, Henderson, Koscheck, Alves, Sanchez, Sherk, and various others.
Bisping should be up there as a star. He made the UK expansion possible so he is indispensable.
I would agree with almost everyone on their 45 but – Matt Hughes sells ppvs?
I was pretty much certain that he’s a weak sell and needs to fight great foil to sell at all i.e. Gracie, BJ, GSP, Serra.
You just listed every fighter he’s fought since the UFC got big (minus Serra). How can you distinguish what makes him sell?
The way I look at it, I don’t think GSP was a big PPV draw until he beat Hughes, and BJ Penn at that time was mostly unknown to the new casual fans.
“The problem with making the claim that there has never been a similar number of fights in MMA as there are boxing in a single year. Its not even close numbers wise, even now.”
I agree that there is still way more boxing going on than MMA but records can still be comparable. I’m surprised that there hasn’t been major statistical research done yet, it might just be because MMA hasn’t reached a saturation point to get researchers attention but that should change in the future.
MMA officials do a good job of stopping fights before a guy gets hurt but there isn’t a lot that can be done of the repetitive shots to the head in boxing or the 10 count knock out rule. What will be really interesting is to see if any MMA fighters end up with CTI in the future, it is thought to affect around 15% of boxers but I don’t know if any of the older MMA fighters have shown signs of it yet.
I agree that there is still way more boxing going on than MMA but records can still be comparable. I’m surprised that there hasn’t been major statistical research done yet, it might just be because MMA hasn’t reached a saturation point to get researchers attention but that should change in the future.
The statistical research is difficult to do because of the variances. A boxing match in Nevada requires medical testing of sorts that a boxing match in Zambia lacks. MMA similarly has such issues between Japan, Korea, and various states, in addition to different rule sets and a multitude of enviroments (cage, ring, etc). Its probably safe to say that there have been somewhere between 12 and 15 times as many professional boxing matches worldwide since 1993. Maybe even more than that, given that from about 1993-1998 or so, there were probably as many boxing matches in the span of 3 weeks as there were MMA bouts in a 12-15 month span.
What will be really interesting is to see if any MMA fighters end up with CTI in the future, it is thought to affect around 15% of boxers but I don’t know if any of the older MMA fighters have shown signs of it yet.
It’ll definitely be a mixed bag. From the original generation, very few remain and those that were around weren’t usually that active over the last decade. Given how little MMA fighters have made compared to boxers even today and given how long we see boxers hang on well past when they should, the question must be asked: What will happen to Randy Couture if he’s active not merely for another fight, but for 2-3 more years? What if Ken Shamrock is fighting at 48? Phil Baroni sounded really bad after his fight with Olaf Alonso, he’s dead broke, and he has no future aside from being a punching bag for various MMA teams. If he’s bad now, how will he sound when his record is 24-20 3 or 4 years from now?
I didn’t see Phil’s last fight at PFC. Is Baroni really punch drunk already? He’s only had 23 fights (13-10). If Baroni is broke, that man has to start learning how to manage his money. He was getting paid well by Strikeforce and Pro Elite. Six figures for the Shamrock fight.
“The statistical research is difficult to do because of the variances. A boxing match in Nevada requires medical testing of sorts that a boxing match in Zambia lacks. MMA similarly has such issues between Japan, Korea, and various states, in addition to different rule sets and a multitude of environments (cage, ring, etc). Its probably safe to say that there have been somewhere between 12 and 15 times as many professional boxing matches worldwide since 1993. Maybe even more than that, given that from about 1993-1998 or so, there were probably as many boxing matches in the span of 3 weeks as there were MMA bouts in a 12-15 month span.”
You don’t have to have a equal number of events to generate comparable statistics. You could get good compatible numbers by just comparing boxing and MMA in the US. Both are monitored by Athletic commissions and similar medical records are kept. We know that boxing in Zambia is way more dangerous, there is no reason to try to compare those numbers to non-existent Zambian MMA fights. A comparison between US boxing and US MMA (where both sports are the safest and the best records are kept)will give extremely comparable and meaningful information.
The thing with CTI comparisons is that so many fighters end up with notable signs 12-15 years from when they start fighting, the UFC just turned 15 and a lot of guys were fighting before that. If 15% of boxers end up with it and the sports are comparable for repetitive brain damage from strikes then you would expect 15% of MMA fighters to end up with it, so far all we have is Baroni acting like Baroni after a fight(CTI isn’t about after the fight it’s about everyday interactions).
You don’t have to have a equal number of events to generate comparable statistics. You could get good compatible numbers by just comparing boxing and MMA in the US. Both are monitored by Athletic commissions and similar medical records are kept. We know that boxing in Zambia is way more dangerous, there is no reason to try to compare those numbers to non-existent Zambian MMA fights. A comparison between US boxing and US MMA (where both sports are the safest and the best records are kept)will give extremely comparable and meaningful information.
But again, you run into the same thing. I think it could only work comparing boxing matches to MMA events by virtue of the states run, given the differences in how states regulate the sport. New York’s never allowed an MMA event and has some really tough medicals for boxers. Hawaii allowed headstomps in MMA well into this decade and never had any sort of regulation.
The thing with CTI comparisons is that so many fighters end up with notable signs 12-15 years from when they start fighting, the UFC just turned 15 and a lot of guys were fighting before that.
There was no such thing as vale tudo fighting in the US prior to the UFC, and I don’t think we can compare Bart Vale in shootstyle wrestling overseas to professional boxing. Furthermore, very few of the original vale tudo competitors are still active or have been for years, which is a point I made earlier. Really, the case study will be the current generation of guys fighting in their late 20s-early thirties.
This brings up another point about all these comparisons – during the 1990s, a number of the most active organizations featured rule sets clearly designed to minimze head trauma. Pancrase didn’t have closed fist punching to the head for the first 5 years. RINGS had similar rules with closed fists and never allowed striking on the ground. However, they are in no way indicative of MMA today, and its a bit unfair to boxing matches to potenially worked Pancrase bouts.
Just use common sense, people. The point of boxing is to hit the other guy in the head more times than he hit you in the head. The first guy to not get up after an 8 count loses. In MMA, you either get knocked out (once) or you get submitted.
Then look at the number of fights than boxers fight over their lifetime versus MMA fighters.
Do we really need to look at statistics to understand that one sport is far safer than the other?
Boxing is more dangerous for brain damage obviously since in boxing, you can punch to the face and to the body waist up but that’s it. So guys get punched in the face a lot more. And you have up to 36 minutes and boxers fight more as cyph said. In MMA, there are a lot of different ways to approach a fight besides striking a guy in the head.
On the flip side, you get a lot more other injuries in MMA that can mess you up. More joint injuries, except for maybe the hands. Permanent eye injuries ala Anthony Johnson and Jens Pulver due to accidental (or otherwise) eye pokes. Lots of other stuff. Overall I’d say MMA is safer for preventing brain damage and maybe hand injuries but that isn’t true for a lot of these other injuries.
Man talk about a day late, there apparently is sports medicine research that has been done that shows MMA is safer than boxing.
http://www.jssm.org/combat/1/18/v5combat-18.pdf