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What is the big deal about Affliction in MMA?
By Zach Arnold | November 1, 2008
I’ve long asked the following question: How has a man (Tom Atencio) been able to get so much PR by accomplishing so little in the fight business? This is a man who ‘ran’ one MMA show last July and lost money on it. Yet, this guy continues to get a lot of PR coverage — and for what? Sam Caplan points out the obvious:
Affliction is failing to learn from the cardinal sin committed by both the IFL and EliteXC, which is that you cannot underestimate the complexity of the fight promotion business and that you must let experienced MMA people captain the ship. Why Affliction thinks it can succeed where so many others have failed is unknown, but if they want to survive long term, it needs to hire a full-time MMA person to serve as both its public face as well as its operations manager.
I hear Jeremy Lappen is currently available.
Topics: Affliction, Media, MMA, Zach Arnold | 114 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Short answer: The MMA Media stinks.
Long Answer:
Since I can remember, the trend by some hardcore MMA fans has been to over hype under accomplished fighting organizations. I’m not sure if they want to see an underdog company succeed, want true competition, or are as delusional as the fight promoters themselves. The list of “next big companies” is endless: IFC, WEF, WFA, and others….
The most shameless coverage of an MMA organization in recent times has been the IFL. They had no proven talent. They had modified (watered down) rules. Their team concept made no sense. Yet websites like Sherdog covered them sometimes more then the UFC. I have noticed a few trends with this:
1. As soon as an MMA organization is on TV, the fighters automatically get a higher ranking. It doesn’t matter if the talent level isn’t there. As soon as there is TV (Free or PPV), the fighters are given higher rankings then they deserve.
2. In some cases (like Sherdog), they hate Zuffa. So any organization that has chance of knocking them down, Sherdog will heavily promote. And sometimes, shamelessly too. Zuffa fighters continue to get shafted in their rankings for lesser fighters in other organizations.
3. Some of it is ignorance. Some of the MMA Media is new to this. They haven’t been with the sport long enough to know that most new organizations will fail. So when an organization says: “We will work with everybody else unlike the UFC”, those media outlets buy into it. Once they are burnt a few times, I’m sure the coverage of the new organizations will hopefully die down a bit.
4. 24/7 News Coverage… Channels like CNN and Fox News suffer from this. They have to fill their websites or TV channels with constant content. So if there is no real news, they will manufacture it. So if Zuffa doesn’t have a show coming up, they will find anything else to talk about, even if that means overly promoting organizations that are proven to be heavily flawed.
Overall, I have always been severely unimpressed with how the MMA has handled new companies. Affliction has put on one event, and yet they are talked about in the same breath as the UFC. That is insane.
And to prove my point a little further….
As I have stated above, Sherdog’s rankings continue to understate Zuffa fighter’s performances and give higher rankings to non-Zuffa fighters. This seems to be a constant trend. Even with that said, out of the 6 biggest weight classes…. So 60 fighters…
Zuffa – 37
Affliction – 7
DREAM – 6
There a decent number of free agents and some of the smaller fighters are in Shooto.
But the point is simple… Zuffa has the vast majority of the talent. I would tend to think of the 6 weight classes, they actually have closer to 40 to 45 of the top guys. Either way, if that much talent is concentrated in one organization…. Then the vast majority of the press should be directed towards them.
Affliction is such a blimp on the map right now when it comes to having top fighters under contract. Fedor is always a heartbeat away from going to another company.
When one company has over 5 times as much top talent as another (not to mention 10 times more lower level prospects)…. It is irresponsible to think that sometimes the news coverage is closer to 50/50. That is just the MMA News Media trying to find stories when they aren’t there and build up organizations that are not worthy of it.
45 Huddle: Very well written. Indeed, one might suggest, professionally written. We’re I a Zuffa employee, I would be tempted to make the same points, in the same tone, an use the arguments….
However, perhaps there are many that remember, Zuffa is an organisation. The UFC is a business. For many, it’s about the sport. It’s not “about the sport” in the sense that Dana uses the term. It’s about the sport in a very real sense.
Many, myself included, lament the loss of organisations such as Pride. To watch Zuffa gobble up DSE and spit out the bones (for bones read “the fighters”) demonstrated their true colours. The reality behind the “it’s for the love of the sport” mask.
What is it that we’re looking for? A sporting organisation that gives a damn about the sport.
Most people bought in to the concept that Randy was “done in” by the UFC. They backed affliction because they backed Randy.
Some of us never bought into it. We suspected that Randy was interested in one thing only – his bank balance (more power to him incidentally, he’s earned the right).
Why did we want affliction to succeed? Support of the “little” guy (falling for the Randy charade) and a desire to have the sport in the hands of educated MMA fans (sadly, not a term that can be used to describe the overwhelming majority of UFC “fans”).
Fans of the “sport” or fans of the “UFC” (sell blood and guts, promote blood and guts and talk “sport”).
Sad.
in all fairness to Affliction they came out and put on the most star studded card in US MMA history.
That said they seem to be way more style than substance. They also look like they are run by fanboys with the stupid heavy metal stuff, using the WAMMA belt which drives me nuts and the constant annoncements that all amount to nothing.
Arlovski vs Fedor is a major fight. They need that card to come off good to have any credibility.
HuLong,
Not sure if this is 100% relevent, but have you heard Dana White’s recent comments on Strikeforce? He was heavily praising the company. Obviously, he loves the sport, but he also wants to see it done correctly. EliteXC and Affliction don’t exactly do service to this sport.
On a completely random note…
If Arlovski beats Fedor, Zuffa will likely try and sign him for a big contract. Affliction is in a tough situation. They need to find tough fights for Fedor. However, if he loses even once, the company could implode.
“The most shameless coverage of an MMA organization in recent times has been the IFL.”
What about Adrenaline MMA? Months of stories about a new, soon to go national MMA company who had already inked a deal with the most coveted free agent in the sport.
We learn much, much later that no deal with the free agent had ever been inked and that the org itself had reconsidered about going national. The MMA blogworld should have hung it’s head in shame that day, but no lessons were truly learned. We can see that’s the case by how they still let themselves be used as a free form of advertising by all the struggling MMA companies out there.
And the fan blogs are more than happy to not ask any hard questions from these struggling MMA orgs or demand proof when something big is announced. Just like they did during the Adrenaline MMA debacle.
“…The MMA blogworld should have hung it’s head in shame that day, but no lessons were truly learned. We can see that’s the case by how they still let themselves be used as a free form of advertising by all the struggling MMA companies out there.
And the fan blogs are more than happy to not ask any hard questions from these struggling MMA orgs…”
Nail on the head.
45; only just spotted your comment there. Sorry man.
Sure, Dana knows when to be complimentary. No doubt about it. The problem is, sincerity. This isn’t just Dana. It’s “big” business 1on1. Sincerity is for dreamers. Duplicity is the reality of big business (Machiavelli 1on1). Dana’s stunning at it and I don’t hold that against him.
As a businessman, I admire him as it happens. The sport however, is something that comes in 2nd place to the business. Fair enough really.
I agree to a certain extent. There is no checks and balances with Zuffa. That’s why the fighters need a union. I’m not exactly a big fan of unions but it is a necessary evil in this situation. Zuffa looks after the sport and profits…. And the union can look after the fighters.
“in all fairness to Affliction they came out and put on the most star studded card in US MMA history.”
Can we stop this myth right now before it is cemented in the minds of MMA fans forever? It was a good card, not the best ever. Please, look at it again, top to bottom.
A lot of big names on the card, but not many good match-ups. Which is what I said at the time of the card.
Pyle/Ambrose, Nogueira/Dewees, Lindland/Negao, & Sobral/Whitehead were all very one sided on paper. The later two were also extremely boring.
Hominick/Young wasn’t exactly overly exciting, and not the two highest ranked Featherweights.
The PPV really came down to 3 fights…. Barnett/Pedro, Arlovski/Rothwell, & Fedor/Sylvia.
And for those 3 fights, Pedro hasn’t been a top Heavyweight for a while.
Not exactly the greatest card ever.
“in all fairness to Affliction they came out and put on the most star studded card in US MMA history.”
Several other people replied to this, about the quality of the card. My response is, what does this matter, and what does it show? You say “fairness” as though its a point in Affliction’s favor. It isn’t. I could put together the greatest card in history if I had 50 million to throw away and a willingness to do so.
Having a great card means absolutely nothing if that card is an enormous money-loser. Its only proof of the incompetence of the promotion.
first off. Said US history. No way rid it stack up to some of the great PRIDE cards. Name a card with better fights in the US prior to it. Don’t forget belford vs martin and Alexander vs buentello would have been fun. Those are 5 great fights. The undercard fights were one sided that’s fair.
If I’m not mistaken it was the most expensiv card in the US. Coverage was fair. I don’t give Affliction any credence right now and won’t unless the next show comes off well.
Oh c’mon, Dana is complimentary of Strikeforce because he wants it as a part of the Zuffa empire.
Michaelthebox Says:
“Having a great card means absolutely nothing if that card is an enormous money-loser. Its only proof of the incompetence of the promotion.”
Let me get this straight, the logic behind this statement as well as by 45huddle, is that the media should only cover promotions that are profitable.
Let me remind you that MMA is a spectator sport. Entertainment. I’m not entertained by a company’s bottom line, I’m entertained by the quality of its fighters and fights. Period. The media should cover quality, world class fight events, regardless of whether or not they company running them is making a profit.
Do you guys enjoy the UFC more because it makes alot of money? Are you entertained by the fact that the PPV price increases, thereby increasing UFC’s profits? Should the media cover the UFC more because they make more money?? Thats absurd. The media’s job is to cover world class MMA. If thats what Affliction is putting on, then thats why they should get media coverage.
Also, the sport of MMA should not be a competition between rival promoters, it should be a competition between world class athletes.
MMA having an exclusive company-based system in which companies compete against eachother is too much like pro wrestling.
And it creates shameless fanboys who refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy or quality of any fighter or event outside of their beloved promotion. (ie, 45Huddle, etc.).
Do I not recall you and other trying to claim that Fedor was a farce? Are we just going to forget this blatant UFC fanboy behavior. Are we to believe that you now have an objective opinion about the legitimacy and quality of a rival promotion? OK.
I don’t think my above post says that a company has to make money for the MMA press to cover them. I do however, lay out an arguement that an MMA organization should be proven before getting so much press. Not to mention that the top fighters should be covered much more, which means Zuffa would get the majority of that press because they have most of these fighters.
And I’m not sure if I ever called Fedor a farce. But I did question his #1 ranking before his win over Tim Sylvia. He hadn’t fought a top guy for about 3 years at that point, and in my opinion, didn’t deserve being ranked. Once he beat Sylvia, I had no problem seeing him ranked #1 again.
Call me a fanboy…. but as a fan, I enjoy watching GSP/Hughes 3, Alves/Hughes, & Alves/Koscheck. These are all fights made on short notice thanks to Zuffa having exclusive contracts.
Since you bring up whether or not a company makes money… Yes, it is important to a certain degree. Not in terms of press coverage, but from a fan such as myself. I was looking forward to the next EliteXC card. It is money (or lack of it), that ended the event. So was the case for the WFA, IFL, and many other organizations. What good are 5 to 7 Top fighters in an organization if they we can’t even get them to fight because the promoters are horrible? Fedor, Barnett, and Arlovski all in the same organization is nice… but when they continue to push back cards, does it even matter?
To answer the question posed at the start, Affliction is a big deal to hardcore fans because they’re putting together good fights. I don’t give a shit who puts together stuff at the level of Fedor/Arlovski, merely that it happens. Just because its not blessed with Mickey’s Replays and Tapout’s Submission of the Night doesn’t mean its a less meaningful fight than Mir/Noguiera. In fact, its an infinitely better fight than that piece of shit, regardless of whether or not it has a TUF hype job behind it. If we’re gonna sit here and talk about MMA as if the only thing that matters is who did what for PPV buys or TV ratings last week, why not just call Griffin’s staged fight for CSI or whatever TV drama he did a few months back the greatest MMA exhibition ever and get it over with?
Tom is absolutely terrible when put on the spot infront of a camera, just terrible, but I’ve heard alot of his radio interviews and when he’s had abit of time to rehearse and relax he’s actually pretty good.
Obviously he lacks wit to compete with Dana White but honestly who cares. Maybe Affliction isn’t doing such a bad job after all considering Tom has said they run on a skeleton crew, so it’s not like their paying hundreds of people 80 grand a year to sit around and do fuck all like Pro Elite was. Give Tom more time to gel infront of the camera to get some more experience, but there’s absolutely zero reason to rush out and find themselves a new “hypeman” per say and pay him a nice salary, when they can use all their current staff inexperienced inhouse staff to accomplish the task at a significantly less cost of hiring new.
Bottom line is they set their pay scale way to fuckin high with the first show, otherwise I truly believe with their current minimalistic approach they could be viable competition for UFC eventually. You gotta walk before you can run, and I think Affliction realized that after their big dive into the deep end and have reverted back to taking baby steps by canceling their event and getting their shit better together.
Now the real question is if their “partners” will actually be of assistance or hinderance, considering speculation is Golden Boy’s heavily considering the same day for their upcoming Tony Margarito vs Shane Mosley superfight that the next Affliction event is supposed to be on. And if that’s the case then the poor Affliction crew can’t get a break.
“The media should cover quality, world class fight events, regardless of whether or not they company running them is making a profit.”
This is true. When was the last time Affliction held a fight card? How many fight cards have they held? What is the likelihood of them having another fight card? It ain’t a guarantee.
Affliction has gotten hype far beyond what their one card has deserved. The quality of that one card has fooled everybody into thinking that Affliction is some sort of competitor to the UFC, and as such the organization has received media attention and hype far in excess to anything it has actually done.
“Also, the sport of MMA should not be a competition between rival promoters, it should be a competition between world class athletes.”
If this is the case, why are you whining at me, rather than an MMA media that gives Affliction far more attention than any single fight card deserves?
This entire thread borders on the ridiculous. The problem with the MMA Media isn’t that people think that Affliction is a serious competitor to the UFC or not, because time ultimately will determine what happens. Its that shit like “Dana White gives out king sized cady bars” is MMA news over events like Sengoku.
Michaelthbox is correct.
If it is based on fighters and fight cards, then Affliction would have been out of the press since July.
I will laugh very hard if Affliction postpones their event again. Especially for a Golden Boy Boxing Event.
So much for the two companies working together. Shows it is BS and isn’t working out on a fighter level.
Plus, there is no way Affliction could put a card on until at least late February. The Super Bowl is on February 1st. It will be hard to get people to buy a PPV for a week or two after the event.
End result: Affliction is a joke.
Is it just me or did this 45 Huddle guy steer the original post completely off topic? It has nothing to do with how much attention Affliction itself is getting but more about the competence of Tom Attencio beign in the figurehead position. Everybody has to start somewhere in life, Dana had limited to no experience at one point, it’s not like Tom is unprofessional even if he lacks the charisma element that makes Dana’s tirades so appealing for some. And really, if people are pointing out that Affliction is garnering more press then necessary doesn’t that mean Tom is actually doing a decent job? 45 Huddle seems to have his Zuffa shill into fifth gear, maybe hes a sponsored poster? especially when you consider Dana admitted to paying off media, why not pay off some posters also LoL.
The “about the sport” argument always kills me, all professional sports are about the money. The company exist to make money, the athletes compete to make money and the product is never presented for free(there is no such thing as “free” tv, someone is paying for it). If the sport isn’t making money then it ceases to exist as a professional sport. Fans should be distinctly worried about whether money is being made or not if they want to be watching that sport in the future. If Affliction isn’t in the MMA business with the primary concern of making money at it then we won’t have to worry about them getting news coverage for much longer because they will fail.
As for Tom Atencio, I have to wonder if he’s a fanboy playing at being a MMA promoter. They have had a number of big time press conferences but only one event, they have tried to “partner” with anyone who will return their phone call and even the ones they have announced as partners don’t seem to be very involved with them at all. It seems like Tom likes to have press conferences and interviews and loves hanging out with other people in the industry but no one in the company seems to be able to figure out how to actually promote MMA shows.
Affliction had to move their first show from Dallas to LA, they had to cancel their second show and now their “partner” Golden Boy has boxing event on the same night as the next “second” show. I’m sure the fighters with Affliction contracts would prefer that there were fewer press conferences and some actual events because unless they are fighting those contracts are worthless.
My comments have stayed on topic with the questions posed by Zack.
I have been called a UFC fanboy many times. But I also back up my arguements with either logic or facts. And me being a “paid poster” (which I’m not), is just a cop out for discussing the issues at hand.
When Zuffa first bought the UFC, I was ultra critical of them… just like I have been of Affliction, IFL, EliteXC, Bodog, and others. I saw certain things going in the way of boxing that I did not prefer. However, The Fertitta’s proved me wrong.
Affliction… has yet to prove anything.
So let’s say Affliction falls flat on its face like your insinuating you desire, whats the purpose of having multiple sites like Zacks covering this sport when it’s a single organization especially if/when Japan collapses. Sure Zack is good for investigative journalism, but he won’t be able to find fuck all for dirt on the UFC if their the only game in town especially the way they cover their tracks, making his voice essentially irrelevant, along with the multitude of other MMA bloggers out there. Not to mention how convoluted the coverage would become with each site regurgitating the same topic. And for their sakes I hope this ain’t their day job because when the bottom does fall out due to people with your attitude, they better find a new line of work. Face it, Affliction provides you a vocal point that wouldn’t otherwise exist compared to your savage UFC nuthugging. Sure there is only one NFL and probably 10x as many bloggers covering it, but it also has about 100x the roster size as UFC also. Your point equates to a slightly more sophisticated hater is all.
So a site like this needing content is a good reason for bad businesses in MMA to stay around? That is what it sounds like you are saying. And it makes zero sense.
I say we don’t need these other organizations. I’ll give you an example. I’m a big NY Yankees fan, and I live in the area so I’m not a fair weather fan. During the summer, I will typically have a game on in the background. I don’t watch them to hate on other teams. I don’t particularly hate the Red Sox or Rays. I just watch them to enjoy the sport.
I’m not a hater. Far from it. I just want to see all the fighters under one organization so we can see the best fight each other. Nothing more, nothing less. That has been my stance for years. Bad companies like EliteXC and Affliction just get in the way of that goal (for me the fan). And when I can see they will eventually go out of business (with me bagging on them or not), I would rather see it happen sooner so the talent will consolidate on a faster basis.
Those fighters that are in Affliction, Oh ya, there’s a big reason they are. Because they REFUSE to do business with UFC. So maybe Fedor/Barnett/Lindland should all retire now, and fuck off and die as you seem to be indirectly suggesting? Because they won’t be testing themselves in the UFC anytime soon due to restrictive contracts and petty grudges, even though each are highly rated and in some instances the best in the world.
So long as Affliction puts on three good fights a card, its a fuck of a lot better then the past two UFCs combined. And you should feel privledged to have the opportunity to have selection as a consumer so companies like UFC are forced to compete and put on even more crap cards like they have been. Competitions are what USA is all about, or atleast what I thought, otherwise you would be living in communist Russia.
Where do I begin?
1. UFC refuses to do business with Matt Lindland. He even asked them to make him an offer, and they were the ones who refused.
2. Barnett screwed over Zuffa a while ago. Remember post UFC 36? Is he even wanted back?
3. Fedor’s management is a joke. First, they wanted to use Fedor in order to get their other fighters signed. Then they wanted to use Fedor to get a joint promotion with the UFC. I can only imagine a baseball player from Japan coming to MLB and demanding that his new team sign 5 of his teammates AND have his Japanese Team co-sponser the games. The American journalists would LAUGH at those demands. Fedor’s management is basically making the same demands. It’s a joke.
4. There is also Arlovski. He is severly overpaid. Great fighter. Exciting fighter. But what he is being paid…. Affliction is not getting enough in return. So it was a bad signing from that perspective.
And let’s talk those “restrictive” contracts.
The biggest one is that fighters can’t fight for other promotions. Look at DREAM. Mousasi and Alvarez looked the best in their two tournaments. And they don’t exactly have all the rights to them. Basically making the tournaments pointless, if not hurtful to the company.
And finally…. let’s talk COMPETITION. You elude to it, and others have said it… That if the UFC is the only big organization in town, that it is a monopoly. So couldn’t be farther from the truth. This arguement would even be laughed out of court.
The UFC is STILL forced to put on good cards.
1. Competition from other sports (hence why it wouldn’t be a monopoly).
2. Ratings. If the ratings go down, they don’t have a TV outlet.
3. Revenues. If the cards are not worthy of a purchase, the organization would go under.
So even if the UFC is the only game in town, they would still have incentives to produce quality MMA. Just like MLB has incentives to produce quality MLB. And the NFL with football… And so on…
BIG BILL BOB. you know whats worse than a ufc nuthugger…a ufc hater. you probably like to think of yourself as a “real mma fan” and dont care what mma org comes up the pipe or what kind of tactics they use or quality of fights they have, as long as they are anti-ufc, like yourself. what, still mad because the ufc bought out pridefc? zuffa did them and the rest of us a favor knocking off that joke of a company. oh wait, i forgot that i’m brainwashed by the zuffa hype-machine. keep on hatin hater, it’ll get you nowhere.:)
Restrictive as in they no longer own their name after signing on the dotted line, they do not receive any type of compensation for anything with their name on it….Even Vince McMahon gives his wrestlers some royalties from their branded merchandise sold, something UFC is supposedly against. If I was the fighter I’d rather have assurance my company would toss me a bone then be forced to rely on what could be a flakey sponsor, including your show and win pay.
Does Microsoft continue to put out good products even though they have no competition? Or do they just seem to get more bloated and polished to appease the masses who want something bright and shiny to glare at? Perhaps thats why so many businesses switch to open source software and save alot of cash even though it doesnt have the aesthetics but maintains functionality and in many ways surpasses.
Those 3 fighters could make an impact in the UFC but they wont be in there anytime soon which foils your “best fighting best” idea. So why not have an alternative like *unix is to Windows since the fighters/components in question have compatibility issues with the UFC/Windows.
b.w.d You sullyed your own comment by calling PrideFC a joke company lol, but since you probably do live in a democrazy, your more then entitled to state your useless opinion. Keep on keepin on.
When Ortiz was in the UFC, he still had the option to sell Punishment Athletics. Randy Couture could still sell his fight gear. There are issues with him promoting his Affliction related products at this time inside of the UFC, but even he unstands the reasoning behind it.
Also, in other sports, if Derek Jeter is sponsered by Toyota, he can’t wear a Toyota Logo on his uniform. It is not allowed. A fighter not only can wear a Toyoto T-Shirt, but a Toyota Logo on his trunks, and have the Toyota logo behind him during the introductions.
So while the UFC does have some restrictions, they also allow for other revenue streams that are just not allowed in many sports within America. There is ALWAYS a give and take. Just the way things are.
Additionally, I have never said Zuffa is 100% in the right with their fighter treatments. They do many things fantastic, but they aren’t perfect. That is why I am pro-union for the sport. So the fighters have a much needed voice. But I don’t just want to see a general union. I would rather see a UFC Fighter’s Union. This way we still have everything under one organization, but the fighters have fair treatment as well.
Also, it is a two way street. Guys like Tito Ortiz & Frank Shamrock want a chunk of the company. How is that good for the sport? Or Fedor wants his manager to be a co-promoter. For the things Zuffa does poorly…. nothing is even remotely as bad as things could be if guys like Ortiz, Shamrock, and Fedor really got their way with the biggest MMA organizations in the world.
The Microsoft example is a poor one. People need computers. Microsoft products are required from most jobs. MMA is not a requirement in entertainment. People can go to other sporting events. They can go to the movies. They can even go to boxing events.
“b.w.d You sullyed your own comment by calling PrideFC a joke company lol, but since you probably do live in a democrazy, your more then entitled to state your useless opinion. Keep on keepin on.”
Keep it to a content level discussion. No reason to insult others.
As for Pride….
1. Judging system was laughable. They could choose who they wanted to win almost any fight.
2. They re-created the tournament brackets every round, often times hugely favoring certain fighters.
3. They only signed exciting fighters, and never gave guys like Okami & Sherk a chance.
4. Non-Title fights.
There is a reason why Pride is out of business. Smoke and mirrors from beginning to end.
Sure maybe some people need their pc but they don’t need windows on it, they can use a mac, or linux or unix or any variety. People also need to be entertained. And when there is no other options available other then UFC, that means that people are beign forced into watching that. Microsoft cant force people to use their product. UFC can. UFC has developed a larger monopoly then even ole Billy Gates. And personally I don’t care because I still watch every event….curtosey the dozens of streaming sites available. So after they’ve definitively crushed and cornered the MMA Entertainment market perhaps they can focus on these pirate broadcasts? Or where else will they progress? Because if they arent progressing then they are regressing. Sort of like their current production values, complacent, stale, stagnant. But more then enough to please most I guess.
And btw, Pride fights were epic, Staying up until 1-5 in the morning to watch Pride live was unlike anything else, Dream and Sengoku simply dont compare.
And btw im refering to MMA entertainment, forget boxing etc. If people want to be entertained by an MMA event their only choice now, or soon, is UFC. Unacceptable.
Sometimes I feel like I’m 45’s alias. Hopefully one day he’ll say something that I’ll completely disagree with.
“1. Judging system was laughable. They could choose who they wanted to win almost any fight.”
I’ll disagree. Most people didn’t understand the scoring and as a result, cried “fix” every time they didn’t understand the judges’ decision.
Focusing on Affliction’s second card coming up… if you look at the line-up, there’s really no major juice at all as far as mainstream names. Arlovski, at this point, simply isn’t moving the needle on a big level.
Perhaps a call to Kimbo is needed. Laughingstock or not, he’s more popular and well-known than anyone Affliction currently has. At this point, they need someone who can bring in eyeballs and I don’t see any other free agents who could do this on the same level as Kimbo.
I understood the system. It was described in detail during on the Pride events, I want to say #16 or around there by Matt Hume. The jist of it is:
1. The fight is viewed as a whole, not based on rounds.
2. A fighter gets more credit for nearly ending the fight.
There was actually a list of criteria he went through. I use to have it written down and I would try and score the fights as they happened. I found myself on the wrong side of the decisions most of the time. Mostly because it didn’t make sense. On the other side, with the system used in the UFC, I can typically predict the outcome correctly over 95% of the time.
I know Rogan complains about the US judging system, but it is pretty good (perhaps needs a few tweaks).
There are 3 rounds. Win 2 of the 3, without a point deduction or losing one round by a large margin (10-8), and you win the fight. That is simple for the fighters and the fans.
The Pride system is very abstract. Leaves to much room for interpretation.
Zach,
You make a great point about Kimbo. Also don’t forget about Gina/Cyborg. They had solid ratings on TV… And I still don’t know if a female can sell a PPV, but I can’t see this fight hurting the PPV buys.
As it stands right now, that fight card screams 50,000 PPV Buys or under.
“Sure maybe some people need their pc but they don’t need windows on it, they can use a mac, or linux or unix or any variety. People also need to be entertained. And when there is no other options available other then UFC, that means that people are beign forced into watching that. Microsoft cant force people to use their product. UFC can. UFC has developed a larger monopoly then even ole Billy Gates.”
Are you serious??????????? These statements are so laughable it isn’t even worth trying to explain to you why you are wrong.
This is what I got from this thread:
The same people who hate the UFC also hate Microsoft.
As for Pride, I guess it was fun for some to watch two roided up fighters trying to kill each other with foot stomps while hoping their inactivity doesn’t cause them to lose 10% of their purse.
UFC has developed a larger monopoly then even ole Billy Gates
This is so laughably ridiculous that I don’t even know where to start.
Are there substitutes to MMA? Yes.
Are there substitutes to the UFC? Yes.
Are there barriers to entry for other promotions? No.
Does the UFC control the cable, satellite, and PPV access? No.
Does the UFC control event venues across the country? No.
Are fighters prevented from signing with other organizations? No.
Are fans prevented from watching other promotions? No.
I don’t think MMA fans understand what a monopoly is.
As jdavis said, that statement is a big ol’ epic fail.
To 45;
It would be terrible if the UFC was the only game in town. It is proven time and time again that competition is what brings the best in everyone. I think we should all accept the fact that there will not be a fighter’s union for a LONG time, and it would NOT be in-house by the UFC. That would be a horrible mistake if the UFC gets to call the shots on the terms of a fighter’s union. So other big feds in needed. Sure, EXC and IFL fell flat, and the same might happen to Affliction, but there needs to be at least a second big company to the UFC. There needs to be more options for fighters.
And if UFC is the only game in twon, then how the hell will there be up and coming fighters? I hope you aren’t against small to medium sized orgs being around. Small feds are needed to produce fighters.
So 45 (and others) where do you truly stand on Strikeforce? Do you want them to stay as a medium-sized company? Or would you want them to try to get a good TV deal (might happen with NBC) and become the competent second biggest company in North America?
Oh, and on another note, the Fedor vs. Arlovski fight may be in jeopardy. I guess in some basketball game he got two black eyes and a broken nose. Not good. Maybe Josh Barnett is good to go?
I would love to see a fighters union in the ufc but it could be a pipe dream. Fighters unions in boxing (yes they exist) haven’t really made much of an inroad into the sport. And non-main event boxers usually get paid miserly compared to non-main event UFC fighters.
Take a look at Kevin Iole’s article on UFC vs boxing purses for reference: http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=ki-mmamailbag042908&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
The highest paid non-main event boxer on the Calzaghe-Hopkins card earned $20,000 while the lowest paid earned only $1,500. That is pathetic. The promoters should be ashamed of themselves. At least Zuffa offers $3,000 bare minimum, win bonuses that double your pay for most fighters and $40,000+ disclosed fight/KO/Sub of the night bonuses for PPVs and $20,000-$30,000 for Fight Nights. As critical as I am of UFC fighter pay, I concede that boxing promoters are a lot more greedy than Zuffa.
#40.CHUCK. wich fighter got their nose broke, fedor or andrei? and what is your source for this?
Strikeforce….
My bias is obvious. I prefer one major organization. With that said, I will not be overly sad if Strikeforce gets good ratings on NBC. As long as they can give us good MMA (which so far they have), I think it is a good thing. EliteXC, I hated from the start, as it was just bad for the sport.
As for a perfect scenario….
There are a bunch of smaller organizations around the country putting on local shows.
A company like Strikeforce (or perhaps Zuffa run), has a weekly show on ESPN that showcases the sport and has up & coming fights.
Then the UFC is there for the best fighters in the sport.
At the same time, there is a fighter’s union. The union is there to protect the UFC fighters. Things such as:
1. Proper fight schedule. No long lay-offs like we currently see (unless the fighter prefers it).
2. Proper pay, including minimum amounts for semi-main events and title fights. For example, if a fighter is on a 4 fight contract that he gets paid $25k/$25k, the contract should stipulate that if he is awarded a title shot, he gets a minimum of $100,000. And if he wins, he gets a bump in pay due to being champion. Basically, a more tiered contract.
3. As discussed above, the fighters need to have more rights to their names. Main event guys on the cover of a DVD need to get a few cents for each DVD sold. Things like this.
This might be a pipe-dream, but I think the sport would be better off with this format. Other’s might disagree.
The myth that there were tons of dubious decisions under the PRIDE scoring system is pretty dumb.
Were there some bad decisions? Yes.
Were most of the decisions there right ones? Yes.
Are there some bad decisions under the 10-point rule? Yes.
Are most of the decisions the right ones? Yes.
Are there some fights that would have different outcomes if measured under either system? And could you justify either one? Yes and yes.
Neither is perfect, but quit pretending like there’s some “aura of fixing” around the PRIDE scoring system when there’s been just as many retarded decisions or judges scoring with the 10 point system. Either can be opened to bias as easily as the other.
cyph Says:
“As for Pride, I guess it was fun for some to watch two roided up fighters trying to kill each other with foot stomps while hoping their inactivity doesn’t cause them to lose 10% of their purse.”
Are you f^cking kidding me? Utterly ridiculous.
It is an absolute, irretfutable truth that from 2000 to 2006 Pride FC had THE highest-caliber, world class, elite-level fighters in the world. Accordingly, it was also the most entertaining organization in the world. Not to mention had the best production quality.
Anyone who denies these facts simply was not watching Pride FC events during this time.
If you followed the entire sport of MMA from 2000 to 2006, which many of you probably did not, it really cannot be refuted, in any way shape or form, that in ever single way imaginable, Pride FC was the premier promotion in the world, bar none.
Like I said, anyone who denies this simply was not watching all of the different events (including Pride) during this time period. As I’m sure is the case with cyph, 45huddle, etc. you guys were not watching Pride FC from 2000 to 2006. If anything, you only watched UFC and a few scattered Pride fights during Pride’s run. Admit it.
For all the proponents of UFC who are against my “scatterbrain” logic. Where else are you going to find HIGH LEVEL MMA? Sure you can visit local regional promotions, but who really wants to sit and watch that. I’m talking the upper echelon of MMA here, and UFC fucking owns it all now, almost. There is NOBODY now on network television (except late late night). Strikeforce streams alot of their events over the internet, so it’s not like they have very high expectations themselves.
If Affliction died and Japan dried out it’s all over for MMA basically. The boom right now has plateaued, all the new douchebag fans (myself included) will either prove to become die hards, or turncoats. Enjoy this little bubble and pray that Affliction keeps pushing forward to ensure there is still some boom upside. Otherwise rot in your monotonous UFC life, Playa Hatas.
And hell why not toss in how all fighters are locked into exclusivity contracts, so even if Bill Gates himself decided to open his own MMA brand, he’s shit out of mother fucking luck. Because Dana Owns Them, Like He Owns Half The Posters Here.
Sam,
You make assumptions that are just not true. I was at UFC 30, the beginning of the Zuffa era. I stayed up all night for the 2000 Pride Grand Prix just to get the results live. I actually first started to follow Pride online after Pride 5, when I heard of some guy named Kazushi Sakuraba beating Vitor Belfort.
Pride has proven to be smoke and mirrors. Great production. Best ever. The intro’s are legendary. So were the stages and fighter intro’s. But the fights themselves were corrupt from the beginning.
From shady refs (Sakuraba/Royler), to shady officials (Sakuraba/Mezger), to actual fixed fights (Coleman/Takada)…. Pride was a bad apple from the start. It just took many fans a long time to see it. Sadly, some are so high on a Pride Bong, that they still can’t see it.
“Anyone who denies these facts simply was not watching Pride FC events during this time.”
Perhaps you need to grab a dictionary and look up the difference between fact and personal opinion. So now I’m not able to make up my own mind about what I find the most entertaining on my tv? I have to agree with you or all the sudden I wasn’t some kind of “true fan” of the sport? That’s what I always hated about the Pride vs UFC pissing contest that fans got so wrapped up in, if you didn’t agree with their opinion you were some kind of enemy? Didn’t we get enough of that silliness in Middle School?
“Enjoy this little bubble and pray that Affliction keeps pushing forward to ensure there is still some boom upside. ”
You bag on everyone else for being brainwashed by the UFC yet you seem to be clinging to a sub-par organization that may not even last out the year just because it’s not the UFC. How come fans have to support any organization just because it’s not the UFC? Shouldn’t we expect to have a quality alternative instead of any old fly by night mismanaged company that doesn’t last?
If Affliction fails it will be because of Affliction’s mistakes, it’s not like the UFC is what put the WFA or the IFL or ProElite or even Pride out of business it was those companies poor business management that did them in. The reason that there is currently a lack of alternative high level MMA organizations is because there is a lack of organizations that have figured out how to actually make money and stay in business. If your looking to blame someone for the lack of alternatives blame the guys who’s companies died because of their own mistakes.
Perhaps one day MMA fans will get the quality alternative organization that they deserve but I’m not going to accept a sub-par product just because there currently is a lack of alternatives in the marketplace. Affliction is a company that has delivered on all of one event and even if the second one happens it will be 6 months in between, that really doesn’t make them much of an alternative to the UFC at this point anyway.