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What is the big deal about Affliction in MMA?
By Zach Arnold | November 1, 2008
I’ve long asked the following question: How has a man (Tom Atencio) been able to get so much PR by accomplishing so little in the fight business? This is a man who ‘ran’ one MMA show last July and lost money on it. Yet, this guy continues to get a lot of PR coverage — and for what? Sam Caplan points out the obvious:
Affliction is failing to learn from the cardinal sin committed by both the IFL and EliteXC, which is that you cannot underestimate the complexity of the fight promotion business and that you must let experienced MMA people captain the ship. Why Affliction thinks it can succeed where so many others have failed is unknown, but if they want to survive long term, it needs to hire a full-time MMA person to serve as both its public face as well as its operations manager.
I hear Jeremy Lappen is currently available.
Topics: Affliction, Media, MMA, Zach Arnold | 114 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
It’s funny that this debate went in the direction of PrideFC. Because let’s be honest… This is what it’s really about.
Pride Fan Boys are still upset with their company going under. And they are constantly looking for that replacement. Of course, that can’t be the UFC, because they bought them out and were their chief rivals.
So they cling to lesser organizations like the WFA, IFL, Bodog, EliteXC, and now Affliction.
Really this topic will be closed shortly as Zach posts more news, and it’s basically been beaten to death now. But common. I mean seriously, Common.
Affliction is beign counter programmed by UFC every step of the way with the original January event scheduled once again beign overlapped by UFC, not to mention their first effort with the fight night (let me guess, in your opinion thats just doing good business). Like I said above, it is VERY VERY OBVIOUS that Affliction has learned they made a mistake, and are now rectifying the situation by taking a step back and observing/calculating the next move alot more thoroughly. They operate on a skeleton crew, they arent trying to buy up other useless organizations, they arent paying dozens of executives top dollar, they arent renting lavish offices (to my knowledge).
We all saw Affliction make one mistake with their inagural event, fighter pay, and guess what, they learned from it. Maybe they lost a million or two, but still not nearly as bad as 50 or 60. Expect Affliction to come back alot stronger with the next show, and maybe even make a fan or two outta some of the United Fanatics Converging on this site. And really, what more is there to say? Absolutely nothing. Leave Pride Alone, it’s long dead~
If EXC was brought down largely in part to Standgate, could you imagine what they’d be saying about Pride? A stand-up bonus is nothing; Pride offered Rampage a lose bonus. Straight up, we will pay you more money if you lose. That alone would bury them in the states, but it seems like most Pride fans barely care or conveniently forget. Then you’ve got other shady practices, like giving fighters two weeks notice when they’re fighting the guy Pride favors, the Yakuza connections, no independent AC oversight, no steroid testing, taking money away from the fighters with yellow cards, and so on.
Shady. No other way to describe it. They put on a good show, but they make Dana and the Fertittas look like paragons of virtue.
I like how none of the last day or so has anything to do with Affliction. I guess its a bit difficult to refute the idea that putting on really important fights is meaningful. On the other hand, beating dead horses is pretty easy.
I think we need to take a step back and look at this topic from the beginning. Regardless of whether you want one organization in the game or many, I think we can all agree that these companies need to be run correctly from the beginning and run by competent and knowledgeable MMA experts.
When you have companies like EXC, IFL,WFA etc come in to the sport of MMA they all have one common flaw, they are not being run like a true company should. Regardless of whether it’s MMA or any other industry you need quality and competent figureheads and staff running your business, people who truly understand the industry. All of these companies failed at this. EXC and WFA blew their payroll on stars that had no return. All three companies drew experience from individuals who had no MMA experience, while ignoring those who did. What did Gareb Shamus and Kurt Otto know about running an MMA company? What did Jared Shaw know about match making or running a viable business.
If you look at Affliction, you see the same trends developing. Tom Attencio seems like a genuine fan of MMA, but does he have the ability to steer an MMA promotion in the right direction? I don’t think he does, as he hasn’t shown anything to prove me wrong. Had Affliction when they originally decided to start a fight promotion put in a proven hand of the MMA industry, you would not see half of the things that have occured already. The payrolls would not have gotten out of hand, a clear path would have developed for their matchmaking and their credebility would have been a lot higher.
I love MMA and the sport and I am a huge fan of the UFC. I admit that I think they are the best organization but at the same time I don’t want other companies to fail just because I think the UFC is #1. Strikeforce is a great example of a company being run like a company. I remember a great quote from the show THe Wire. “First you crawl, then you walk, then you run”. Scott Coker understands this. Will he be a viable contender for the UFC? Not right now, and Strikeforce knows this. HOwever in two – three years time, as they gradually grow and make the improvements necessary, they will have the credebility to challenge the UFC. AT that point, everyone will agree that companies like Strikeforce and men like Scott Coker are worthy of the press that people like Tom Attencio are receiving.
To the guy calling us newbies: I started in this sport when it was called street fighting, at least 15 years before the concept of Mixed Martial Arts as a sport. I trained in four separate disciplines, those being Judo, Jiu-jitsu, Kung Fu, and Wrestling. I’ve been a fan of mixed martial arts and a practitioner for over 25 years. For you to sit there in your chair and make that assumption is not only wrong, it’s reprehensible to even make the argument.
I don’t usually agree with most of what 45 says, but he’s got some valid discussion points, and it’s not off topic to the article. Heck, Zack even suggested Jeremy Lappen was available for Tom Atencio to hire. Like he expects that to happen.
As far as my loyalties, I like fighting. I’m not a FanBoy of any organization, and I’m not a schill. (45 could be accused of that, even here, but he’s aquitting himself with honor, so I can overlook that.) I may not agree with everything he says, but I’ll defend his right to say it until he’s out of words or I am.
Having said all that, every promotion has had their problems, including PRIDE, the UFC, EliteXC, Strikeforce, hell, even Pancrase. The most current is Affliction, and Tom Atencio is doing a hell of a job keeping the focus on him and Affliction. That says a lot right there, at least about the marketing message. Will they ever put on another show? Heck, I don’t know. Will I buy it? Hell Yes, just to see Fedor fight. He’s truly poetry in motion if you’ve never seen him fight, and you need to if you’re really a fan. Do I care who he fights for? No, not so much, as long as I get to see him fight.
45, keep on trucking. You’ve got as much right as anyone to post your thoughts, whether I agree or not.
As for my thoughts on the topic: Like I said, I don’t know if they’ll ever put on another show. But if they do, I’ll buy it. What about the next UFC? Yeah, I’ll buy it too. Why? I like fighting. ‘Nuff said.
“1. Judging system was laughable. They could choose who they wanted to win almost any fight.”
No attempt at PRIDE vs. UFC at all on my part. I just want to hear a more valid argument than “the judging system was laughable”.
The more accepted scoring system in North America has been the 10-point system that is equally susceptible to bias and interpretation as any other scoring system.
I think I outlined my points quite clearly, yet I’ve gotten no response other than, “clearly this is what it’s all about – PRIDE fanboys…”, I just stopped listening after someone couldn’t do better than retreat to the usual “fanboy argument”.
The 10-point must system comes from boxing (which has shown just how reliable the system can be), and I’ve yet to see a reason as to why it should be used in MMA especially since it was created for the context of stand-up and “leaves to much open to interpretation” given that striking plays only 1 part in the equation.
Ice,
If you actually ever read the interview rather than listen to the internet banter, you’d know he was never offered a “lose the fight bonus”.
They said they wanted an exciting fight with a finish (i.e. no decisions). He was told if the fight was “exciting” and had a “finish”, he’d be paid a bonus regardless of a win or loss. Quite frankly that sounds a lot more like a “fight of the night” bonus, where Dana would say “I don’t give a f^$% if you lose, but if you guys put on an exciting fight for the fans you’ll be taken care of.”
To me it’s just another thing that got blown way off of the original path, for obvious reasons.
You’ve got to cover something. Affliction generates more heat because they tied into the “new Pride” game by bringing in several former Pride guys, including a few who have had high profile fall-outs with UFC.
Dana White is generally complimentary about smaller promotions. Strikeforce, WCF, etc. When they are independent, professionally run, and provide a stream of talent for his organization while raising the profile of MMA on a local level, they’re a benefit to his business. When they want to go national or international, and start calling out UFC, then they become a threat. It’s the old SWOT game. Zuffa is always attempting to focus on their strengths (brands, basic cable, big name marquee fighters), minimize their weaknesses (right now my opinion is that their weaknesses are primarily related to their hardnosed tactics, so you have poor relationships with specific fighters and manager, and poor relationships with blogs and certain other media outlets, and then you have lack of regulation in large markets where they would like to hold shows), pursuing opportunities (acquisition of WEC, WFA, deciding whether it was worth bidding on the corpse of IFL, counter-programming events that received a lot of press with events that build up UFC’s own fighters like Anderson Silva and BJ Penn), and identifying and neutralizing threats (obviously Affliction, EliteXC as threat to the sport not so much as a rival promotion, buying out Pride which falls into multiple categories but in the worst case gives him control over most of their media assets and their brand to prevent anyone else from creating a straight up new pride).
Strikeforce, WCF, and the other regional/subnational promotions are going to either be a strength of the promotion growing the sport and providing feeder talent, or they’re going to be a threat. So far it seems like the guys who decide to talk like a threat are being identified that way, and the guys who are willing to give UFC a nod and fist bump when they pass on the street are regarded as a strength.
“Ex-Pride guys”? Like Matt Lindland? Tim Sylvia? Terry Martin? Paul Buentello? Andrei Arlovski? Ben Rothwell? Mark Hominck? Babalu? Most of the “PRIDE Vets” they had made their marks in the UFC like Rizzo and Belfort. The closest things to real “PRIDE guys” were the Emelianenko Bros. (one of whom didn’t fight), Smaller Nog, and Barnett. 4 guys out of 20; big whoop.
Let me know when 4 no longer constitutes several.
No one has actually refuted anything I said.
Did Pride not have more elite-level, international fighters than any other organization in the world from 2000-2006.
Did Pride FC not have the recognized (at the time) very best fighters in the world. (ie, Nog, Fedor) during this time?
Did Pride not put on the most stacked cards in terms of international, world class talent?
My point is that those of you may have liked watching the UFC during this time, but that does not change the fact that Pride had the superior fighters and fights.
And by the way, this is not simply my personal opinion.
If you were reading the MMA media (ALL OF IT) from 2000-2006, there was a complete consensus that Pride was the superior organization with the superior athletes.
So, you guys may like the UFC-style, 1-main-event-type PPVs, with 80% American talent, but as far as every sport in the world goes, MMA is judged by the quality of its fighters and fights.
All this talk about fixed fights, people mention 2-3 fights, which is less than 1% of the total number of fights that happened. Try to telling all of the warriors who fought in Pride over the years that it was fake.
Good lord, you’re gonna put a company for whom the overwhelming majority of talent had their histories in the UFC as tied to PRIDE because of a couple guys? There are UFC events with more ex-PRIDE fighters than that. You are clawing for something here, and I have no idea why. Can’t you just admit that the reason Affliction gets press is because they are planning to put on fights like Arlovski/Fedor? If they were shooting for PPVs with Matt Lindland/Carlos Newton II as the headliner, I doubt anyone would care.
And if you really wanna get town to the nitty gritty, UFC has made just as many questionable decisions as Pride did.
People always say how Japanese fighters were unfairly pushed in Pride. Of course they were. Just like American fighters are unfairly pushed in UFC.
Brock Lesnar gets a title shot, while a guy who actually earned his title shot (Werdum) has to fight a dangerous nobody. Brock is an American star and he gets a title shot? Coincidence? Of course not. Now explain to me how thats any different than a Japanese fighter getting an easy fight in a GP?
I don’t typically agree with Sam about anything but his point are salient, even if they have nothing really to do with the question at hand. I don’t see people interested in Affliction’s dealings to be PRIDE fanboys as much as I see the people wildly against the mere existence of Affliction to be people confused about MMA promotion not being a team sport.
Since we’re on the topic of comparing e-penises on who is more old school. I was an original Pride fan and was part of the crowd that dismisses the UFC as inferior which was fashionable back then. And back then, yes it was inferior in terms of talent.
However, now that I have the complete picture, I can come to the realization that Pride was a spectacle and shady in many ways. The Japanese did not care to run the sport as a sport. There was very specific reasons why Pride was more “exciting” and fighters tend to go balls out. I don’t want to dash your nostalgia of the organization, so lets just leave it at that.
All this talk about fixed fights, people mention 2-3 fights, which is less than 1% of the total number of fights that happened. Try to telling all of the warriors who fought in Pride over the years that it was fake.
There are outright fixes, which Pride was guilty of, and then there were subtle fixes, such as booking fighters last minute to fight their stars, awful one sided judging, ridiculous tournament brackets to favor one fighter, no drug testing, the best fighter of a tournament losing through injuries, etc.
Like I said, keep your nostalgia. Don’t dig it up because it won’t turn out too favorably.
While I can certainly agree not drug testing is a taint on the past as well as the tournament brackets to a certain extent, some of your reasons are pretty shaky.
Bad/one-sided judging is clearly only an issue with PRIDE and has NEVER been an issue with the 10-point system? I’ve seen some amazingly questionable decisions in the UFC that certainly have other factors that add to the air of bias. I’ve seen it in other promotions as well – EliteXC and other smaller promotions.
And there was never been selective match-making outside of PRIDE? Yes, it was something that added to their “spectacle” and “aura” but they’re hardly the only promotion to do it.
I’m not saying this as a “defender of PRIDE”, that ship has looong sailed but c’mon man, you’re more reasonable and smarter than that.
And I love that someone can make some ridiculously one-sided and usually erroneous claim in some sort of half smug manner (re: something to do with PRIDE) and then act all shocked and mockingly at the “PRIDE fanboys” who do little more than correct said revisionist history.
I wonder when we will see some of Zach’s commentary on the MMA bubble burst, or if he is holding out hope that something will pop up to keep the meal ticket of many bloggers alive lol. As a matter of fact that is probably why none of these bloggers seem to mention it since they dont want to be out of a job (dont know how people even get paid for it, especially the unqualified) guys specifically that 45 guy like to make lists to show your points, so why not make a run down of why MMA is on the verge of beign forgotten.
1. UFC reigns supreme and will do anything to crush healthy competition (especially underhanded tactics). No union will ever be put in place for required checks and balances… since wrestling doesnt need it (wrestling is not real competition), Dana doesnt either. He may want to be on par or surpass NFL for sports leader, but he wont stand for any type of Fighters Association.
2. MMA no longer has network television aside from a timebuy that a small organization in the wee early morning hours. The only good to come out of this is we no longer have Jeremy Lappen or The Shaws involved in MMA. But MMA may never be on network television again thanks to one scumbag in particular named Seth Putridzelli and the stigma now attached to the sport. (if its not picked back up in the next few months, it probably wont ever be again)
3. Japan is having terrible times with Sengoku having some of the worst crowd turnouts in the history of their sport, Dream is supposedly climbing into the red ProElite style (especially offering Satoshii Ishii 5 million dollars) all with zero television deals, which is what made PRIDE so successful. Sengoku is working dilligently towards television and their brand is alot cleaner then DREAM in terms of the yakuza, but even then it probably won’t be enough to get the highly coveted TBS slot PRIDE once held, and helped PRIDE sustain for so long.
4. TUF is blowing hot or cold with either the lowest ratings in history or “the highest”, depending how much of a jackass they have drinking and causing problems. People obviously arent watching this for the sport, and the respect/honor/dedication/athleticism that goes with it. These are the wrestling demographic who have yet to fully graduate to MMA and just want the drama and probably will never accept MMA until they reject their roid leagues and scripted entertainment. So they better make sure to have another JT/Junie character for all following seasons.
5. Fighters options are becoming limited once again even with the paydays increasing. I personally wouldn’t be surprised to hear of semi-successful fighters beign forced back into day jobs due to the lack of opportunities available. (thanks to UFC owning everything, even if some refute it beign a monopoly)
6. Everybody wants Affliction to fail other then people actually involved with the industry (bloggers not included). MMA fans are proven masochists apparently wanting less high level MMA on TV. Really with this sport only beign fifteen years old I suspect it could be over before it started. (unfortunate since i am one of the TUF skids who gained interest when it started, also beign a old pro wrestling fan but realizing its total crap and completely rejecting it)
7. Believe it or not, MMA (soon to be called UFC) needs to stop following this stupid pro-wrestling model and take a look at what boxing is doing. No matter the corruption, or shyster promoters, the next promotion that pops up needs to start promoting the fighters rather then a brand. It has now been proven that UFC has branded MMA almost totally (unfortunate) so rather then trying to fight it they need to follow the tried, tested and true boxing model of having the fighters sell the fight rather then the hypemen.
There is so many more to list but that is all that comes to mind off the top of my head. Rather then hating on Affliction you need to buy their PPV so they can in turn put on quality MMA cards and help contribute to the continued growth of MMA, otherwise YOU are not an mma fan. My apologies if I fail to articulate my ideas as well as some of the paid posters here.
“I like how none of the last day or so has anything to do with Affliction. I guess its a bit difficult to refute the idea that putting on really important fights is meaningful. On the other hand, beating dead horses is pretty easy.”
This concept has already been proven false. In order to put on “really important fights”, the organization must actually run cards. Which at this point, they haven’t done since their premiere show way back in July.
10 Point Must System – It is the best system, whether or not it comes from boxing. judging a fight as a whole is just too complicated over 15 to 25 minutes (even for very educated fans). And having some type of point system for strikes and submissions would turn the sport into point fighting.
Laughable decisions in Pride…. Let’s look at Guy Mezger’s career. He constantly was closer to ending the fight much more then his opponents, but always lost split decisions. The Nogueira/Ricco decision was a joke. Nogueira never had a real close submission, but was somehow awarded the fight. Those are just a few examples off the top of my head.
“Did Pride not have more elite-level, international fighters than any other organization in the world from 2000-2006.”
Not they didn’t. They were perceived too by many, but some in the minority (such as myself), never really bought into it. I remember making a post on the UG back in the day about Kazushi Sakuraba, and how he being this great fighter was kind of a joke.
1. If there were judges, he would have lost to Allen Goes.
2. He got way too much credit for beating Royler Gracie, a much smaller fighter. Of course, I never bought into the Gracie myths, even before their downfall. But the majority of fans still thought they were gods, so a win over Royler was big in their minds.
3. He should have lost to Guy Mezger, but they changed the rules on him after one round.
4. He then beat Royce, Renzo, & Ryan. Once again, if you didn’t but into the Gracie’s, these wins didn’t mean as much.
And then as soon as he fought real competition (Silva), he started getting beaten up quick.
This is just one example of how I was vocal in the past. Even their “legends” were built on deception and crookedness.
The 7 points of Big Bill Bob
1. The UFC doesn’t need major competition.
2. Network TV is not a requirement for the sport to survive.
3. Japan going down only means less slots for the fighters. But it doesn’t have much of an effect on the popularity of the sport in America.
4. The actual fight cards have always gotten much better ratings then TUF. So obviously people ARE watching it for the sport. At the same time, some people like the drama, and for that, there is TUF.
5. There is no basis for this comment. Sponsorship money is at an all-time high, and shows no signs of decreasing. This is because the sport gets the best demographic in TV.
6. Some of us want to see BAD organizations fail. I don’t care if Strikeforce is around. I don’t hear other people complaining about Strikeforce. It is the idiot companies that increase fighter pay beyond what the market can handle and make all these promises that they can’t keep… That some of us fans would like to see go away. Especially when they can’t even put on a second show without delaying it 3 times.
7. MMA needs to be more like boxing? I’m glad you aren’t running the sport. That is a horrible idea. The boxing system might work short term, but will eventually fail in the long term. The “pro wrestling” model is probably the only thing keeping this sport so popular at this point. The casual fans want one organization, just like they have for football, basketball, and baseball. Not random events like boxing has.
3. Japan going down only means less slots for the fighters. But it doesn’t have much of an effect on the popularity of the sport in America.
5. There is no basis for this comment. Sponsorship money is at an all-time high, and shows no signs of decreasing. This is because the sport gets the best demographic in TV.
I guess you just contradicted yourself there eh Smart guy?
“Less slots for fighters means there is no reason for them to go find other lines of work?”
I had no idea sponsors paid fighters for not fighting. Usually they like to have their brands displayed on the fighter during their fight.
Your a really unbalanced poster here lol, and ill admit you get under my skin with your swift paid replies. But I dont agree with your opinions at all.
I didn’t contradict myself.
#3 is referring to how a downslope in Japanese MMA would have on MMA. #5 talks about the sponsorship money available in the US market for MMA. Two different balls of wax.
And #5 is referring to your comment that fighters will have to get day jobs again. When really, there is about as little proof of this as their is of the UFC being more of a monopoly then Microsoft.
Its about the opportunity available for fighters. And what you say is if Japan stops having events it won’t force multiple fighters out of work. Dumbass. Completely relative, probably like the people who conceived you. Fuckin mongoloids.
Troll much?
You can have very heated arguments and never agree on points, but there’s no need to completely swerve into hurling perjoratives and insults.
You pretty much serve to detract from any intelligent points you make when you get into that kind of nonsense.
With some people there is no recourse. Especially more then likely someone who is educated and probably professionally employed in the field. This guy is like the Cindy0 of fightopinion.
And there was never been selective match-making outside of PRIDE? Yes, it was something that added to their “spectacle” and “aura” but they’re hardly the only promotion to do it.
Oh come on. The UFC try to match opponents as evenly as possible or at least attempts to do it. How many superstar VS cans did you watch in Pride? In the UFC? How many light heavy/heavy VS middleweight/superheavy fights did you watch in Pride? In the UFC? How many freak shows did you watch there in Pride? In the UFC? How many UFC heavyweight champ VS wrestler/judo newby have they shown?
If you’re going to bring up Lesnar VS Couture as heavy handed match making comparable to Pride, then your argument fails right there.
“Rather then hating on Affliction you need to buy their PPV so they can in turn put on quality MMA cards and help contribute to the continued growth of MMA, otherwise YOU are not an mma fan.”
This is the kind of tragically misguided comment that belongs on Sherdog. Seriously Bill Bob, the fact that you actively want MMA promotion to be more like boxing promotion, just shows that you’re completely clueless as to what the sport actually needs.
Billy Bob,
Insults are the last refuge of the intellectually challenged. Since you resorted to it, you’ve clearly lost the argument.
Michael why not offer some type of intelligent insight then your current floatsam/jetsam. It has worked for boxing well over 100 years, MMA will be lucky to survive another 5 without having fighters lead the way. Thanks for revealing your ignorance.
Firstly, I am refraining to do it on a “UFC” vs. “PRIDE” level, but more generally a global promotional level. Obviously, I’d refrain from looking at your Sengoku’s, DREAM, WVR’s etc. as they’re nothing but a strong imitation of PRIDE with far shallower talent bases.
All I was saying is that it’s not something that’s completely “unique” to the one organization.
There have been lots of times that they’d set up fights in the UFC to play up the strengths of particular fighters – one need to look as far as Chuck Liddell to see how they were setting him up to look good against certain opponents. I’m not about to indict his entire title reign or run at LHW as being “he was always set up to win”, but he was given some pretty cushy fights (which recently didn’t manage to work in his favour anyways). Bisping and Huerta are two other guys that comes to mind most recently, though Leben/Ken-Flo/Guida were certainly a steps up in competition.
Of course you don’t see much “selective” match making because the talent pool is so deep that it’s impossible to justify it now – but before most of the talent in the world was consolidated to one promotion, it was occurring albeit not at the same levels. My point being that in every fight sport there’s bound to be fights were the promotion/promoter is going to set up “showcase” fights for guys from time to time.
And as for Lesnar-Couture, absolutely not. I am so amped for this fight and I think Lesnar stands a good chance to win this – whehter he has “earned his shot” or not, the guy is legit and you’d be living in a fool’s paradise to think otherwise.
But if I see a Kurt Angle vs. Couture/Lesnar, then I might have to reconsider my stance. 🙂
Japan is Japan and there’s not much you can do about it…you were going to be forced to witness some National hero vs. actual world class fighter because that’s the nature of the beast there.
But I find it hard to deny that if you separated the wheat from the chaff there was some all-time great fights and fighters.
“Michael why not offer some type of intelligent insight then your current floatsam/jetsam. It has worked for boxing well over 100 years, MMA will be lucky to survive another 5 without having fighters lead the way. Thanks for revealing your ignorance.”
Oh man, you’re killin me here. How many years of trolling experience do you have?
Heh. Boxing and MMA have alot more in common then you think. They are both combative sports. What do people remember most about it? Exciting fights and master fighters, or the name of the events?
The more time they spend building up the stars of headlining events the better it will be for the athletes and in turn for the sport. People don’t care which numbered UFC Anderson Silva is fighting on, they just know Anderson is fighting and that he is a highly appealing fighter. Why do you think UFC is slowly ceasing all their stupid named events like UFC: Explosion, and now calling it Lesnar Vs. Couture etc.
You are heavily critical yet seem to have no opinion of your own, the worst troll of them all.
cyph whatever, im not trying to win anything, and i derive much greater satisfaction having the last word anyway. Enjoy your monopoly.
I have plenty of opinions. I just learned a long time ago not to belabor them with people who are too shortsighted and biased to listen.
You accused people of being Zuffa schills and paid poster in your second post in this thread. Why should anybody waste their time trying to explain their viewpoints to your biased, uneducated ass?
I’m quite serious when I call you uneducated. Your arguments about boxing are so incredibly shallow as to betray basically no depth of thought or consideration. Do you realize that the UFC is close to matching the PPV rates of top level boxing, despite the fact that boxing has been around ten times as long? How can you, with a straight face, claim that the UFC or MMA should take its cues from a sport that has spent the past 20 years slowly destroying itself in the public eye?
7. Believe it or not, MMA (soon to be called UFC) needs to stop following this stupid pro-wrestling model and take a look at what boxing is doing. No matter the corruption, or shyster promoters, the next promotion that pops up needs to start promoting the fighters rather then a brand. It has now been proven that UFC has branded MMA almost totally (unfortunate) so rather then trying to fight it they need to follow the tried, tested and true boxing model of having the fighters sell the fight rather then the hypemen.
Never once did i say UFC needs to change their current ways. I suggested any new comers to the sport need to stop attempting to open a brand and compete with UFC, but recruit elite fighters and promote them against one another like boxing. Obviously you dont read what i say…if a new company wants to come in against the UFC they need to attempt what boxing does …because they will not win a brand war.
And ya, Dana admitted to paying off media, who knows who else hes paying….this site is actually used quite abit by industry people alot more then casual fans.
Is the UFC really though? Maybe in terms of “yearly buyrates” compared to boxing, but on a one-for-one basis (i.e. top PPV vs. top PPV) I don’t think the UFC is at all near boxing in terms of PPV buyrates.
I could be wrong without having the stats right in front of me, but that’s the feeling I have.
and btw Mike, I am uneducated….never been to college, so if I shut you up, feel deep shame. (sort of like ole 45 smart guy)
Overall, I think the UFC brings in at least as much or more than boxing revenue wise. A few boxing events still brings in more individually, though. However, since boxing really has no real mainstream stars, I wonder how much longer this model will follow through.
Look a the stats and extrapolate that data out another 5 years. MMA and boxing are going in opposite directions.
Full agree on the future. There’s no one going into boxing (see: US olympic boxing teams) and frankly the horrible image boxing has and mainstream popularity of mma is only going to serve to magnify the mass exodus of people who were historically boxing prospects moving into the more lucrative mma.
Oscar de la Hoya having two fights a year can only last for so long, along with the various “comebacks” for RJJ, Mosley etc. Kelly Pavlik getting taken to school did not help matters either.
You never went to college? I couldn’t tell…
“Is the UFC really though? Maybe in terms of “yearly buyrates” compared to boxing, but on a one-for-one basis (i.e. top PPV vs. top PPV) I don’t think the UFC is at all near boxing in terms of PPV buyrates.”
Thats largely the product of a very few events, such as DeLaHoya/Mayweather. The UFC still can’t touch boxing’s peak numbers, but they are killing boxing on the average card.
The big problem with Afflictions upcoming card is they selected Showtime to do a PPV with. Showtime stopped doing PPV years ago because they have no more draws for it with the last very successful beign Mike Tyson. Now lets look at some numbers.
De La Hoya vs Pacquiao sold out in like thirty seconds with an all time record gate of like 16million I think.
Lesnar vs Couture has yet to sell out, and will probably end up beign heavily comped with the final statistic padded to pretend it was a sellout (paying taxes on the tickets or whatever)
Boxings all time ppv buys absoltuely destroys mma, what did DLH vs PBF do last year? 1.5 million? Dana is praying that Lesnar vs Couture breaks 1 million so he can say he finally broke the 1 million mark. I say hope in one hand and shit in the other, and lets see which fills up faster.
Wheres these types of insights mike, cyph, 45 smartguy…..
“I suggested any new comers to the sport need to stop attempting to open a brand and compete with UFC, but recruit elite fighters and promote them against one another like boxing. Obviously you dont read what i say…if a new company wants to come in against the UFC they need to attempt what boxing does …because they will not win a brand war.”
So you’re openly hopeful of a turn toward boxing-style promotion? Because what you say will only work if the UFC is crippled.
And boxing-style promotion will be a complete disaster for the sport. Clusterfuck level.
“Boxings all time ppv buys absoltuely destroys mma, what did DLH vs PBF do last year? 1.5 million? Dana is praying that Lesnar vs Couture breaks 1 million so he can say he finally broke the 1 million mark. I say hope in one hand and shit in the other, and lets see which fills up faster.”
1/10th the age of boxing, genius. Think the UFC or whatever MMA brand ends up at the top of the heap will be topping 1.5 million PPV buys 90 years from now?
Your insistence on completely ignoring the head start boxing has just reveals your nonsensical attitude. If somebody with a shovel starts digging a hole, and ninety years later somebody with a backhoe comes along and starts digging their own hole, and that hole is 2/3rds as big after five years. . . would you say the guy with the shovel does a better job digging his hole? Or did he just get a huge fucking head start?
Jeez….It doesnt matter if America is producing high quality fighters anymore, its the fact that all fighters feel they have to come to America and fight to actually be successful. I thought youd know by now it doesnt matter if the person cant speak english or doesnt live in the country just so long as they are a pleasing fighter to watch. Boxing will NEVER die….MMA….who knows.
Boxing’s death has been predicted forever. Meanwhile, the biggest selling PPV of the year is about 6 weeks away. Friday you’ll see an event that will probably exceed 500,000. The endless talk of its demise is pretty funny when compared to the reality.
The upward swing MMA’s had this year is impressive in they’ve really been able to build up star power and have *regular success*, but by the same token, UFC 89 had a lower TV rating than UFC 70, MMA is off network TV, no one has yet beaten the mark of UFC 66 set two years ago, TUF’s ratings are flat, etc. People talking about what MMA or the UFC will be like 15 years from now are out of their minds. There’s nothing to base any of the talk on. The sport’s first mega PPV was just over 2 years ago for crying out loud. For all we know, an event beyond anyone’s control ends up pushing MMA back to hyperfringe status.