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« | Home | »

Perception or reality about EXC

By Zach Arnold | September 29, 2008

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It feels like there is zero heat for this Saturday’s EXC show in South Florida with Ken Shamrock vs. Kimbo Slice. Fair assessment or inaccurate?

Meanwhile, here’s an interesting SEC filing by Pro Elite today:

September 3, 2008
ProElite, Inc.

File No. 000-31573 – CF#21957


ProElite, Inc. submitted an application under Rule 24b-2 requesting confidential treatment for information it excluded from the Exhibits to a Form 10-K filed on April 15, 2008.

Based on representations by ProElite, Inc. that this information qualifies as confidential commercial or financial information under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(4), the Division of Corporation Finance has determined not to publicly disclose it. Accordingly, excluded information from the following exhibit(s) will not be released to the public for the time period(s) specified:

Exhibit 10.15 through April 14, 2013

For the Commission, by the Division of Corporation Finance, pursuant to delegated authority:

Rolaine S. Bancroft
Special Counsel

Topics: Media, MMA, Pro Elite, Zach Arnold | 29 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

29 Responses to “Perception or reality about EXC”

  1. b.d.w. says:

    without sounding like a complete idiot…..what does it mean? more bad news i assume.

  2. D.Capitated says:

    I also remember proclamations about how only 3500 people would show up at the Thomas And Mack for the second PRIDE event.

  3. Zach Arnold says:

    I also remember proclamations about how only 3500 people would show up at the Thomas And Mack for the second PRIDE event.

    a) What does this comment have anything to do with the topic at hand?

    b) PRIDE ran exactly one more show (in Japan) after the second Las Vegas event before they closed their doors.

    c) You have a long history on this site with previous comments about PRIDE during its collapse that make you look mighty foolish in retrospect to what actually happened.

  4. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    That’s an interesting and somewhat misleading statement.

    The actual rule 24b-2 says that if an additional FOIA request is received, then the confidentiality status of the material will be re-reviewed for each request.

    The way that would have worked in the past would have been that the agency would have sent a communication to the original filer asking whether it was still confidential, and if no response was received in five days, it would have released the information. Not sure how the current administration would treat that (the Clinton administration was notoriously open regarding FOIA requests, basically if there wasn’t a really good reason for something to stay hidden, they just released it, but the Bush administration has pretty much had the opposite policy, unless there was a good reason to release it, they hide it).

  5. Mike Rome says:

    I don’t think there’s any less hype than for the first May show. Gina’s on the late show tonight, Kimbo was on PTI, and they have more media later this week. I think it will do well, I just don’t think that is enough.

  6. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    Going back to the filing in question, it looks like the redacted information mostly related to how much CBS is obligated to pay to ProElite and when. This includes:

    1.3 The specific license fee percentage caps for events that are other than 2 hours long for CBS.
    1.4 Financial terms related to “derivative programming” (reality TV shows and best ofs).
    2.1 How much CBS is obligated to pay as a flat licensing fee, and it looks like some additional terms for special cases.
    2.2 The license fees for outyears.
    2.5 The bonus fee for ratings.
    6. Looks like the license fee for re-broadcasts of events after the second broadcast (the flat fee covers the first and second broadcast).
    7.3 – 7.6 Details of the CBS exclusivity deal.
    8. Looks like this could be the definition of a “top media market” (events for CBS are required to be produced in a “top media market”)
    10. The number of complimentary tickets that ProElite is required to give to CBS.
    11. Information on talent exclusivity (I’d guess this is probably related to the ability of fighters to fight for promotions also broadcasting on network television and PPV…impossible to tell though).
    9, 13, 14, 16 Additional details on the CBS agreement.
    Page 6, Page 7: These are probably either tables containing the same information, or they are additional signatures the filing (not sure who else would be signing this thing).

  7. D.Capitated says:

    a) What does this comment have anything to do with the topic at hand?

    I’ve heard the “there’s no hype!” thing before and it turned out to, you know, not resonate into reality.

    As for what happened to PRIDE, if you’d like to go through the process of repeating that, sure, go ahead. It wasn’t the fault of the second US show and the 12,000 or so people that showed up for it that the organization collapsed given that it was already on its way out. In fact, the successes of the US shows led to an attempt to have PRIDE be purchased and to be run internationally whilst using casinos as bases for their bouts rather than Saitama Super Arena. That always gets lost in the sexy talk of the Zuffa takeover and Yakuza. Using this example, it would be like if CBS, Affliction/GBP, or a private capital firm like a Blackstone Group bought EXC would suddenly mean the show was an abject failure regardless of its ratings.

  8. Razzle says:

    To me, the media coverage and ads are heating up. While Jared Shaw is getting scorched by the MMA media, Kimbo Slice is burning up the TV. By the day of the event, the hype will be red hot. The MMA community will be in a fire storm for Elite XC Heat!

  9. D.Capitated says:

    Also, I’ve been more than willing to take my lumps. The majority of my talk re: PRIDE and its collapse that ended up off the mark was when I gave Zuffa more credit than they deserved. I actually thought they would make some smart moves overseas, perhaps not alienate anyone, work with local promoters and TV, etc. Of course, none of that happened and Dana White decided to react to all of it in his usual cursing-every-other-word fashion. Tack on along with that Dana’s repeated failures to get network deals and my mind was suitably changed.

  10. catch says:

    I’d say there’s some decent heat for it at this point, but they could’ve done a lot better, particularly locally.

  11. IceMuncher says:

    I see a commercial here and there, but given that this is a fairly big fight and an important show for EXC, they should have a lot more marketing than what I’ve seen so far.

  12. Ivan Trembow says:

    Gina Carano’s appearance on Craig Ferguson went very well. He is always funny with his guests and this was no exception. Ferguson did a hell of a lot better on Jimmy Kimmel than he does on those conference calls with his one-word answers, but Carano undoubtedly did better.

  13. 45 Huddle says:

    I think the show will get decent ratings, but that is hardly the issue at this point.

    1) Will the grab the right demographic CBS is looking for? CBS got EliteXC to pull in the young male demographic. So far this show hasn’t done that even compared to the UFC on SpikeTV.

    2) Can EliteXC stop from losing money? They have no real stratgey for making money in the future. Sure CBS can purchase the company, but does that really mean EliteXC will all of a sudden stop bleeding money?

    3. The UFC (partially by mistake), fell into the perfect formula. Give away a sample on free TV, then charge money for the superstars. What can EliteXC do as a follow-up to this? They are giving away their biggest fight in the companies history for free. Why would johnny Consumer want to pay to see Gina Carano & Kimbo Slice fight on PPV when they are use to seeing it without paying a cent?

    The business plan has been tainted from the beginning. Like I said, I believe this show will get really good ratings. Kimbo vs. Shamrock will guarantee this. But it doesn’t mean the company will survive.

  14. 45 Huddle says:

    Went to Ticketmast to see what was still left for the show:

    Tickets Still Remaining: $30, $60, $100, $150, $200, $700.

    Single Seats Only Left: $300

    Sold Out: $1,000 (Makes me think they only had like 4 available).

    Note that Ticketmaster makes it look like the upper section seats are $30, but it is impossible to purchase them, making me think they are not even selling those tickets.

    According to Wikipedia, an End-Stage Concert Set-Up (which is similar to what they have here) seats 15,000 to 21,000. Basketball seats a little less then 21,000… So I would say their current set-up probably allows for like 10,000 tops, and they haven’t even come close to selling out. When you have no PPV Gate, selling this few tickets is a bad sign, and definitely something that will be taken into consideration if CBS chooses to purchase the company.

  15. TBone says:

    Television advertising costs money. They don’t have much, so they’re stuck relying on CBS and Showtime to do the advertising. If you had seen a lot of off-CBS advertising, you’d say they were being irresponsible and going deeper into the hole. To me, it sounds like they’re doing the responsible thing as a company.

    The fight card is great (for a free card are you kidding me — Arlovski?) and the Nov. 8th card is shaping up to be a good one too (Lawler vs. Villasenor).

    Why try to belittle them and bring them down? I don’t get it.

  16. Rollo the Cat says:

    “Why try to belittle them and bring them down? I don’t get it.”

    Yes, because what is said on this board has a direct and powerful influence on what happens to Elite XC and also because we are all supposed to be working for Jared Shaw without pay.

  17. TBone says:

    While you obviously don’t have a direct and powerful influence on EXC, MMA forums and sites do matter to the hardcore fans at least.

    Not sure what “we are all supposed to be working for Jared Shaw without pay” means. Being happy that you get to see good MMA for free doesn’t seem to equate to being a shill for EXC.

  18. 45 Huddle says:

    I don’t think anybody is belittling the strength of their cards. I agree their next few fights cards are solid.

    It’s their business practices that are highly questioned.

  19. Ultimo Santa says:

    If anyone is a pro-wrestling fan, you’ll realize that their forums have virtually the same debates.

    The WWE fans (UFC fans) are dedicated to ‘shilling’ for the top promotion no matter what. They belittle the smaller organizations like ROH and TNA (Elite XC, Affliction) for using the exact same marketing strategies that the WWE uses, and make excuse after excuse for Vince McMahon (Dana White) and his unethical business practices.

    It was amusing for a while, but it’s now growing tiresome.

    Is Shamrock/Slice going to be a success for CBS and Elite XC? Who knows. Maybe the lack of heat has to do with the novelty factor of Kimbo wearing thin. Maybe his aura was damaged in his last fight. Maybe the mainstream fan is FINALLY starting to realize what we’ve all known for a long time: Ken Shamrock is a shell of a fighter who is risking death every time he steps into a cage.

    Elite puts solid, entertaining cards on free TV, is the only promotion that gives women in MMA their due (as far as exposure) and they try like hell to grab mainstream attention. I can’t fault them for that, and I will be tuning in this Saturday.

  20. Kelvin says:

    Why do people love to hate the UFC and root for these other idiots that run themselves into the ground with stupid business practices?

  21. D.Capitated says:

    How is rooting for other people to be successful hating the UFC?

  22. b.d.w. says:

    #21. its called reading between the lines, wich is transparent among all anti-ufc bloggers such as yourself. rarely do they come right out and say it, but bring up things like ticket prices, sales, exclusive contracts, everything dana. why dont they say what they really mean. they hate dana white and the ufc (they do like some of their fighters, especially the former pride fighters) and wish for their demise. good luck with that.

  23. zack says:

    45…do the same investigation for the “BIGGEST UFC FIGHT OF ALL TIME.” Still lots of tix for sale.

    I’ll be DVRing EXC because I’m going to the Dodgers playoff game that night.

  24. Michaelthebox says:

    zack, are you out of your mind? Theres a HUGE difference between an event with cheap tickets thats only a few days away, and an event where most of the tickets are $300 or more and is still a month and a half away.

  25. 45 Huddle says:

    Michaelthebox said what needs to be said on the tickets.

    The live gate $$$ will probably have a difference of over $3 Million.

  26. Gygax says:

    Let’s humor Zack. For UFC 91, there are no more tickets for at the two lowest levels, $75 and $150. If you want a $300 ticket, you can get one, but there are no pairs available so don’t plan on sitting with anyone you know. If you want to sit with someone, its $500 a pop. This is 7 weeks away and the MGM Grand Arena will seat somewhere around 16,000.

    If you want to buy 8 tickets at the lowest price level of $30 for this weekend’s EXC, no problem. 8 ticket blocks are available for basically any section as of yesterday. The entire upper bowl at the BankAtlantic Center is closed down with no sales. Those $30 seats are actually pretty decently placed on the lower level. The place will be set up to seat no more than about 9000.

    Comparing the two events ticket sales was a bad idea.

  27. D.Capitated says:

    its called reading between the lines, wich is transparent among all anti-ufc bloggers blah blah blah

    Good lord man, take the tinfoil off your head. No one is out to “get” the UFC, but alternately its stupid to champion a particular fight promoter like he’s a demigod. The way people talk about Dana White you’d think he’d have cured cancer, not run a PPV oriented fight promotion.

  28. IceMuncher says:


    Really? Your earlier post, #9, seems rather anti-Zuffa. You literally blamed their ineptness for the failure of your predictions, which is especially amusing considering that it’s generally well accepted in hindsight there was no way a Zuffa-ran Pride was going to fly in Japan and a network TV was a bum deal for the UFC at the time.

  29. D.Capitated says:

    Your earlier post, #9, seems rather anti-Zuffa. You literally blamed their ineptness for the failure of your predictions

    My predictions were based on a level of faith based on their then newly found competence. Zuffa clearly had some intention of running shows under the PRIDE banner otherwise they wouldn’t have operated an office and the like. What, I’m to blame for UFC’s poor handling of the situation across the board because I predicted they’d do a better job? That’s an interesting idea. Matter of fact, who should we blame for that whole disaster? I guess we can’t blame Zuffa because that would be “rooting against them” or some shit.

    As for the network TV deal, dogg, its been two years we’ve been hearing about it. No TV yet. Probably no TV this time next year while we continue to hear jabber about how “close” it is. Its not gonna happen because as a free TV enterprise, they don’t currently offer enough to prospective networks to get what they demand, nor are they in a position to really want or need to make any changes because their PPV business is making them so much money.


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