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UFC 84 discussion
By Zach Arnold | May 24, 2008
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Results in full-page mode. Plus, Luke Thomas has an audio recap covering the UFC 84 event (audio here). Also added: Media headlines covering the fallout from the event.
Main fight results
Sokoudjou defeated Kazuhiro Nakamura by stoppage after the end of R1.
Rousimar Palhares defeated Ivan Salaverry in R1 in 2’36 by submission.
Thiago Silva defeated Antonio Mendes in R1 in 2’24 by tap-out (strikes).
Ryoto Machida defeated Tito Ortiz after 3R by a 30-27 unanimous judges’ decision.
Goran Reljic defeated Wilson Gouveia in R2 in 3’15 by referee stoppage.
Wanderlei Silva defeated Keith Jardine in R1 in 36 seconds by KO.
UFC Lightweight Title match: BJ Penn defeated Sean Sherk by stoppage after the end of R3.
Media headlines
- Michael David Smith: UFC gets undercards right
- The Las Vegas Review-Journal: BJ Penn more than paper champion
- The Las Vegas Review-Journal: Loss should close book on Tito Ortiz’s UFC career
- Steve Cofield: Class was the word of the night at UFC 84, until the post-fight
- The LA Times: Sean Sherk fails to regain UFC title in loss to BJ Penn
- Arash Markazi: Ortiz/White feud comes to an end
- The Long Beach Press-Telegram: BJ Penn calmly puts away Sean Sherk
- The Miami Herald: BJ Penn defeats Sean Sherk to retain lightweight title
- The Washington Post: BJ Penn thwarts Sean Sherk’s comeback at UFC 84
- The Sweet Science: BJ Penn manhandles Sean Sherk at UFC 84
- MMA Junkie: Silva, Palhares, Reljic, and Gouveia secure $75k UFC 84 bonuses
Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 53 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Todd Martin is blogging the post-fight press conference.
http://todd-martin.blogs.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/view/8345253
Sounds like things were tense at first.
lol at the UFC trying to “ban” Tito Ortiz from the post-fight press conference. What a joke.
Whatever. I don’t understand what it is about “business” that the panty-bunching crowd doesn’t understand about MMA. Tito should consider himself lucky he got the mic after the fight.
Ivan,
They gave him the mic after the fight to basically promote himself outside of the UFC. They showed him more then enough respect.
They have a right to not let him at the post fight press conference if they want to.
Ortiz is acting immature for bargining in like that.
This just proves what Dana White continues to say. Ortiz is unruly to work with.
And let’s be honest… Ortiz needs to be the center of attention. That is what this is all about. Nothing more, nothing less.
He isn’t even Top 15 in the world at this point in his career. Because of that, he has to resort to other antics in order to feed his massive ego.
Machida’s made of smoke and teflon. He might be able to outpoint anybody in the division..but I just cannot get into his fights.
And: Palhares’ submission on Salaverry was, as a European football announcer would say, “master class.”
FF
Does DEEP allow elbows? I didn’t think so, but Kim Dong-Hyun is already pretty damn good at them. Some of them were downright brutal.
His ground game is also better than I guessed from watching his DEEP fights. His guard-passing was excellent in this fight.
I watched this event tonight at a sports bar (bad idea btw) but it was a good fight card. Wanderlei absolutely destroying Jardine was phenominal. But was it me, or was Silva actually choking Jardine with his hand? He was outright strangling Jardine on the ground while landing punches on him. And BJ Penn blitzing Sherk with that knee was great too. The entire place erupted when both Silva and Penn won their fights. The place I refer to was the bar. I’m sure the arena erupted too, but I couldn’t hear a damn thing.
UFC 84 is the best MMA event of the year. However, Le VS Shamrock is still the best fight of the year.
We’ve witnessed many future stars of the UFC tonight. The new breed of MMA fighters are showing up, and they are amazing.
I feel no pity for Tito, hes held the UFC hostage several times before. He can’t do it any more now that hes nothing more then a c level fighter. Hes nothing but a drama queen trying to keep his name in the media for a few weeks longer.
BTW, Tito should be happy no longer having to work for a company that treats him as bad as he says they do. Makes you Wonder why hes trying so hard to stay in the UFC.
Wow, that was a great UFC. Easily the best MMA show of the year imo. Machida was flawless for most of the fight (did Tito land a single strike in the first 2 rounds?), BJ earned his place at the top of the division, and Wandy got a chance to showcase that killer instinct that I started to doubt he still had. Yoshida, Palhares, and Carwin also had fantastic debuts.
Before the hype starts up for next week’s EliteXC show, I’d like to point out that Carwin > Kimbo.
Wow, IceCrunch & Muncher, that one hadn’t even occurred to me to be honest. I’ve been too busy getting behind Dana’s statements regarding BJ Penn>Kimbo from earlier in the week. But you’re absolutely spot on.
Carwin would clean Kimbo’s clock with about the same ease that he finished his opponent last night. But, then again, we are talking about a sideshow attraction ala Butterbean’s status on PPV back in the late ’90s as opposed to a legitimate, soon to be world class fighter.
Just because Esch may have appeared on the undercard of a Lennox Lewis or Klitschko fight, doesn’t mean that anyone ( other than hayseeds & rubes, that is … ) actually thought he should’ve fought either of them. In that way, at least Bob Arum was a lot more honest with his selling of ‘Bean than is Gary Shaw with Kimbo.
GKH & 45, though we can differ on some things here, today I’m in total agreement with both of you gentleman when it comes to Tito’s actions.
WTF?!!
It seems like the guy is bi-polar or something. One moment he’s all class & the next he’s behaving like a complete jack ass. It’s absurd.
I have my own issues with Dana White, but damn, in this instance he took the high road, stayed out of the picture & even allowed Tito to have his final say in the cage. After losing a rather one sided contest!
And, Tito used that forum to go out in a classy way on mike with Rogan. But then, came the post-fight press debackle. What’s up with that nonsense?
Who knows, maybe he should look at the people around him. From the sounds of it, he was doing alright until Jenna & his entourage got involved …
I think Jenna is a bad influence on Tito, but he still acted like this before. Remember him complaining in the ring after the first Shamrock bout about getting more money….
As for the fights themselves…. It was a great night of action. Wanderlei really came across as a big star… and it established a lot of good up & coming athletes.
Actually, the next few weeks of fighting should be really good. EliteXC (minus the Kimbo fight… unless he loses), WEC, & the next UFC. I am looking forward to them all.
Was this the best fight card so far this year?
Plenty of very relevant fights, one title fight, lots of action in every fight, lots of hype and drama, and good knockouts and submissions. Also they showed 4 undercard fights (9 fights in all!).
Interestingly, I think the runner up for best card this year is UFC 80, which was also headlined by BJ Penn.
Last night made me really happy. First off, it made me believe in Wanderlei Silva again, even if it was just for one night. It made me a fan of Lyoto for watching him just meticulously pick apart a raging Tito Ortiz from a distance and then break out of Tito’s best shot at a triangle. BJ Penn, a guy that is argued over being one of the best in the world or a lazy dude shows once again that he is just as good as people claim him to be. He didn’t even need his jiu-jitsu to destroy him in this fight, because Sherk couldn’t take him down nor could he outbox him.
For what its worth I really don’t want to see Goran Reljic again. Dude absolutely refuses to set up his strikes and just kept doing the same stuff over and over again.
Machida is growing on me.
I think his standup is along the same lines as what a lot of people perceive the ground game to be. Not a lot seems to be happening, but he’s keeping control, avoiding damage, inflicting damage, he’s getting into position.
If it’s not your pot of tea, then that’s life, but he’s a winner, and with each fight, I see something new to his game. The kickboxing is really starting to show up in his style, but he’s meticulous about blending things into his existing style, instead of allowing them to override what has already been successful for him.
I need to go back and re-watch some of his earlier fights.
Same here Jer.
While they make such a big deal about his Karate skill-set, it’s become clear to me that all those years of sumo are paying huge dividends for him as well.
He looks like an average-sized middleweight in the cage, but twice in a row now we’ve seen him absolutely dominate a couple of huge, hulking 205 pound fighters with his sumo skills. Tossing men (who by appearances looked MUCH stronger) around like rag dolls! VERY impressive stuff IMO.
Though his father couldn’t have known about Lyoto’s future MMA career back when he was just a boy, it’s almost as if he made these unconventional choices for him in order to build a fighter whose style/skills would befuddle & trouble everyone.
And, though he didn’t get a stoppage win last night, he came very close to it & it’s clear that as he becomes more experienced in MMA, he’s further developing his finishing abilities. Which is VERY bad news for everyone else in the UFC at 205. Don’t you think?
why is everybody hating on kimbo. and carwin > kimbo wtf?! First off Kimbo got a crazy ass chin. He’s used to being punched full force bare knuckled.. so dude can take a shot… virtually no neck and you would not see his head whiplash like it did with Christian Wellisch.
Kimbo > Carwin. If they were to fight… Carwin would try and take him down as most other fighters will do.. because truth is everyone has seen the video of him knocking some guys eye out of its socket and that image can fuck with your confidence.
And you don’t think Kimbo has been train mor technically… he’s got one of the best trainers behind him.
And MMA is a business… its about making money don’t kid yourself… so yeah it sucks that lawler is headlining the fight but is his name going to bring in views from the masses… fact is NO. If i was elite xc i would have done the same thing. UFC “its bad for MMA” WAWAWAWAAAAA…. not locking down a randy v. fedor was badd for mma…. still promoting the shit out of chuck and not working and paying your current champ is bad for mma… not letting your fighter fight over seas is bad for mma……..
While I still believe the Wanderlei in Pride was different (juiced) from the Wanderlei of today, he’s made a fan out of me again. Win or lose, this guy takes a beating and doesn’ back down until he or his opponent is laid flat on their back.
He’s the epitome of an MMA fighter. Welcome back, Wanderlei!
A big reason why Kimbo can take punches is because he has a full beard. Facial hair helps when it comes to protecting your face from strikes, and Kimbo has a big, bearly beard. It is practically a cusion. I’m surprised he is allowed to fight with a full bearxd like he has. I’m sure he has a good chin beard or no beard though, but the beard definitely helps.
I’m not hating on Kimbo so much as I’m hating on the fact that he’s the main event of EliteXC’s card and getting so much hype. He hasn’t earned it, he got it because of his street fighting fame. Good for him for making the best of an opportunity, but it’s a shame that Shaw is appealing to fans with a freakshow match-up instead of legitimate fighters.
As for why Carwin > Kimbo, Carwin is 9-0, and he’s finished 8 of those 9 fights in the first two minutes. The only exception was a fight that lasted 2 minutes 11 seconds. He’s well-rounded, those 9 victories came by way of 4 TKOs/KOs and 5 subs.
The dude is a beast. He outweighs Kimbo by 20+ lbs of solid muscle. He’s proven time and time again that he’s a KO striker, and he’s a legitimate collegiate wrestler (Div II champ iirc) on top of that. Carwin over Kimbo by anything he wants.
No one will be able to beat Lyoto. It’ll be very interesting to see what they do with him at this point. I doubt they’ll ever want to put him in the position of being a champ.
Funny to see everyone shit on Ortiz. I’ve never been a fan, but the dude has only lost to some of the best guys in the sport.
Give me whatever it is that Chuck has been smoking!
WTF? His beard is a mythical advantage which gives him a stronger chin?? So does having hair on your head protect you just as much?
What a ridiculous and completely unfounded statement.
Ice,
You’re hating on Kimbo because he’s on the main event of Elite XC, but were you fine with the fact that Brock Lesnar of WWE fame was giving top billing – over a HW title fight no less – on a recent UFC card?
A NCAA champion has a lot more credibility than Kimbo…
He was an NCAA champ almost a decade ago. People need to quit clinging to the nuts of his “NCAA” credentials as the reason why its “so different”.
This day and age having a background in one martial art really means nothing. Yes, it’s a solid base – there’s no arguing that – but I highly doubt he continued to train amateur wrestling during his pro wrestling and NFL tryout days. But they’re both training for MMA now as a full time job and for pretty much the same amount of time. Lesnar had all of 1 professional fight under his belt and a majority of his “hype” surrounding the event was that he was coming from the WWE but was a “real fighter”, not that he fought in the NCAA in 2001. Both of them are drawing on the “How will a fighter from style X cross-over into mma/legitimate competition?” and not “he’s a former NCAA champion”.
People hide behind that one argument and frankly it’s such a cop-out.
Gaijin,
The complaint by many, including Tim Sylvia, is that Kimbo/Thompson is reportedly the main event.
Lesnar/Mir was heavily promoted, but was not put in the main event slot.
Ken/Tito was the most talked about bout on their card, but AA/Syliva was still the main event and was billed as such.
Folks have said that Chuck is simply saying what Dana wants him to say, but that does not explain former UFC fighter Tim Sylvia making similar comments.
Hey I don’t disagree that it’s really not the greatest idea to have him headlining the card, but at the end of the day he’s the guy that will draw the most interest and viewers and that’s what CBS will care about. It’s all well and good for Dana to go on about ambassadors of the sport etc., etc. and then go on rants against the guys that brought them to where they are and promote WWE wrestlers in main events but when another organization has a similar entity does the same thing it’s blasphemy. Kevin Ferguson isn’t going around acting like a retarded gangbanger and has shown he is sincerely interested in being an mma competitor and training to make himself legitimate – people WANT to see him and as far as I can tell he’s not being promoted as “the best HW fighter on the planet”. All I’m saying is that people sh*t all over Elite XC but defend UFC b/c Brock was an amateur wrestling champ ~7 years ago, all the while he’s being touted as a WWE crossover star who can fight.
What difference does it really make if you surreptitiously promote a fight as the headlining fight over a fight that actually goes on last? Very little in my opinion and that’s exactly how Brock vs. Mir was portrayed.
Yet fighters like Tim Sylvia take issue with it.
And if you go back and watch the promos for UFC 81, a lot was made of Lesnar being a former NCAA champion. In the countdown show, they repeated it over and over. They showed footage of him winnig the title and talked about his amateur career.
I understand what you are saying, but Lesnar’s background in real wrestling was promoted far more than you are saying.
One other interesting thought: Many complained with what Lesnar’s public pay was (we all know the final amount was certainly more) but not much has been made about Kimbo getting more than pretty much every other Elite fighter. Personally, I think a fighter deserves whatever deal he is able to sign, but Lesnar (and the UFC) got a fair amount of criticism while Kimbo (and Elite) have gotten little.
I wanna see BJ move up now and fight GSP again. His got no-one to fight in this division. Penn is just pure class. His standup is crisp and people dont wanna fcuk with him on the ground. His takedown defence is incredible and his undoubtly the most naturally talented guy in the sport.
UFC Light Heavyweight match-ups that make sense:
W. Silva vs Machida for #1 contender
Liddell vs Evans for next shot at title
Rua vs Sokoudjou
Jardine vs T. Silva
I want to see Machida fight Silva, but I don’t think that Silva should get a title shot as a result of his next fight…I’d like him to put together three wins to get a shot.
I generally think that three is the magic number. UFC obviously disagrees with me, so maybe you’ll get what you want.
No freaking way they should give winner of Liddell – Evans next shot at the title if Page beats Forrest.
Liddell needs to do something big to justify a third crack at a guy who’s completely dominated him both fights. What’s he done to show this one would be any different? Evans couldn’t even beat Tito, so he really doesn’t deserve a shot either.
If Rampage beats Forrest I don’t see why they don’t just put Silva vs. Rampage III – it would be easily justifiable. And if Forrest wins you could shunt Liddell in there and still have Silva vs. ‘Page.
The 205 division is so stacked and it’s been held up by TUF long enough – I feel like you’ll just be playing 1 step forward, 2 steps back every time you try to set up someone winning 3 straight fights to get there.
I guess the entire problem with the division is fighter A has beat fighter B but fighter C beat fighter A and fighter C lost to fighter B.
There’s just no clear cut #1 contender and the best they can do is set up a bunch of eliminator bouts and hope and pray they get the winners they want.
Well, I’m uncomfortable with Forrest getting a shot on only two wins.
I guess it really is time to do a multi event grand prix style run and put together a ladder after that. Too many fighters in 205.
I agree…it really only seems to be the fair way to determine a #1 contender, since any other solution would require multiple fights to do so anyways.
The tentative plan, whether one agrees with it or not, is Liddell-Silva II in September, and the winner of that fight fights the winner of Rampage-Griffin in December. No one else in the division, including Machida, is near the front of the proverbial line for a title shot, although I’d argue that Machida deserves to be more than Liddell or Silva.
That’s crappy. I hate rematches. If you’re right, and if Rampage beats Griffin, we have 2 rematches to look forward to: Liddell-Silva and Jackson-Liddell (for the 3rd time) or Jackson-Silva (for the 3rd time). Neither of those fights is even a rubber match, since Jackson beat Liddell twice definitively, and Silva beat Jackson twice definitively.
🙁
Gaijin,
Are you kidding me? It is a proven FACT that having a beard helps when it comes to taking punches to the face. Clearly you know nothing about boxing, or fighting I bet, but whatever. Talk to any old-time boxing trainer, fan, fighter, whatever. Ask them about beards. They will ALL say that having facial hair helps, whether it is just a little or a full beard. Hell, some state athletic commissions ban fighters from having full beards like Kimbo has. I remember years ago on ESPN2 when Paolo Vidoz (2000 Bronze medalist for Italy at heavyweight) fought, he had a full beard, and for at least a minute and a half Teddy Atlas talked about the advantages having a full beard like he had has for a fighter. And my grandfather and his buddy who are/were (my grandpa has since died) were old time boxing fans. Hell, his friend was a pro fighter, and they once had a conversation about having facial hair. But they talked about the disadvantages of NOT having facial hair. Their is no friction, and you can get cut easily. Well, that is if you have no facial hair AND if your face is completely dry, but still. They both forgot about boxing than you will EVER know.
And yes, having hair on your head helps, especially if you are about to fall on your head. It is a cusion of sorts. How about this? Get a bald person, or almost bald person, and get someone with hair. Tell them both to turn around, and throw something (like a quarter perhaps) at both of their heads. Don’t be surprised if the bald or baldish person feels more of an impact than the person has hair, especially if it’s an afro. Hell, a girl at where I work threw a quarter at my head (I have a ponytail and I gel my hair quite a bit for work) and you know what I felt? Almost nothing. The quarter didn’t even touch my head, but it did go in my hair, and it was very funny, but that is besides the point. My point is that you don’t know what you are talking about, and I am proving that.
I didn’t say that I think it’s the best course of action, just that it’s the tentative plan, provided that Liddell is ready to fight in September and that both title match participants are ready to go in December. 🙂
I want to watch Liddell-Silva II and Jackson-Silva III. Rematches sell, and that’s a fact.
Yes, the classic “obviously you must know nothing about fighting argument” that’s based on nothing but a terrible foundation for an argument.
Apparently I and 96% of the boxing and MMA world must “know nothing about fighting”! If it’s such an advantage, I’m pretty sure every reputable trainer would be instructing their fighters to grow beards like Grizzly Adams.
Your FACTS are pretty weak – throw a quarter? Really? That’s your FACT to back up my knowing nothing? Nice scientific argument.
And as for your friction idea, pretty sure that’s all but completely a negligible factor given that fighters have wads of vaseline applied to their face and/or covered are covered in sweat.
But of course I know nothing and you have FACTS like your grandpa and his buddy’s old maids tales – give me a break.
AND – if this “hair advantage” is such a competitive edge for fighters:
Why the HELL was Paulie Malignaggi allowed to enter the ring with a head full of hair extensions?
Their is a difference between having hair on your head (I never said having hair on your head was an advandtage in boxing per say) and what Paulie had on Saturday. That was fucking ridiculous! But having facial hair helps. Maybe not in a major way, but it helps. How can having a full beard like Kimbo NOT work? Jesus man, it is literally a cusion. It’s like punching a pillow on someone’s face. And as I said before, and I guess you neglected to remember, there was a Paolo Vidoz fight years ago on ESPN2 and he had a full beard like Kimbo’s, and Teddy Atlas talked about that for literally a minute and a half, maybe even longer. He said himself that a beard is literally a cusion, and he mentioned that many state athletic commissions don’t allow fighters to have beards.
Okay, let’s mention another issue about hair, body hair this time. You ever watch competitive swimming? You ever notice swimmers have ZERO hair on their bodies? You know why? because they shave their body hair. All of it. That’s because swimmers get a speed advantage if they have no body hair. It’s true man. Same deal for wrestling, less hair equals less friction. Almost comparing BJJ guys that wear Gis, or don’t wear gis. Gis are big and easy to grab. Okay, maybe that comparison is too far fetched, but you get what I mean.
As I said, talk to almsot any boxing trainers about facial hair on fighters, and see what they say.
Someone on a forum is reporting that Dong-Hyun Kim changed his words on purpose.
Joe Rogan: “Alright I’m here with Dong-Hyun Kim and his translator. First of all, congratulations on your victory in the UFC. What do you feel- How do you feel you stack up against the other welterweights in the division?”
Dong-Hyun Kim: “I feel like am really lacking right now, but I hopefully I can work hard and come back to the UFC.”
Translator: “I have a lot of confidence in my ability and I think I match up very well with the welterweights in the UFC.”
—
As far as the fight highlight recap, it was okay. He just talked about utilizing his Judo to get the takedown but his translator threw in an extra bit about his 4th degree black belt in Judo.
—
Joe Rogan: “…Well it was a beautiful display, beautiful Judo throw, great finish, congratulations on your successful debut in the UFC and we look forward to seeing you again.”
Translator: “Thank you very much. We’d like to see you again.”
Dong-Hyun Kim: “Thank you. One more word please.” *hand movement* “I really hope I can come back to the UFC and make lasting impression somehow”
Translator: “I would like to thank the UFC and I wanna let them remember the Pusan team where I’m from, Pusan, South Korea.”
This may not be a major issue for most people, but I feel really bad for Dong-Hyun Kim because he was being really polite and humble (not to mention grateful — if you understand Korean, you can tell by the grammar he was using) but his translator not only took that away from him and made him almost sound like a prick, but he completely changed some of his words around! This is ridiculous!
I’m pretty sure this kind of thing happens often everywhere, but I was just like “um what the?” while I was watching the event here in my living room in Korea and I just
“Ice,
You’re hating on Kimbo because he’s on the main event of Elite XC, but were you fine with the fact that Brock Lesnar of WWE fame was giving top billing – over a HW title fight no less – on a recent UFC card?”
Few things:
1) Brock has better credentials than Kimbo
2) Brock wasn’t the main event, even if he was getting a lot of publicity
3) It was a main-card worthy matchup involving a legitimate opponent: former UFC champion and submission-specialist Frank Mir. That’s a dangerous and legitimate match-up for a wrestler.
If you’re going to get top billing, it better be with a top opponent. Making a fight between an unproven “street fighter” and a glass-jawed “tomato can” the Main Event of your show is embarrassing.
Putting a popular former NCAA champion wrestler into a fight with a former champ and making him sink or swim is a massive improvement. It may not be deserved, but at least it’s a legitimate fight.
If Kimbo was the 2nd or 3rd billed fight, and he was fighting a legitimate opponent, my criticisms would be stilled.
Shane Carwin is an almost equally credentialled NCAA wrestler, has a far better record/pedigree in MMA but he was relegated to a “swing fight” for his UFC debut.
Me thinks there might be some difference between Carwin and Brock Lesnar. I just can’t put a finger on it….hmmmm…..right – Brock was famous for being in pro wrestling (I bet 1% of people knew him as NCAA champ vs. WWE superstar) and they showed him suplexing wrestlers off top ropes in his UFC promos. So much better for the sport.
Of course there are certain favortisms used if a fighter can sell a crapload of PPV’s. But overall, the UFC sends the message that this is a sport and fighters have to prove themselves in their organization.
EliteXC sends the message that they will change up weight classes to benefit their house fighters, promote street fighters, and give piss poor match-ups just to highlight their cards to the lowest common denominator of fans.
That is a huge difference.
The value of beards in fighting is pretty evident given that most boxing commissions force fighters to shave beards should they be too long. Hell, there was a big controversy about 4-5 years ago where a muslim boxer refused to shave his beard and ended up not being allowed to participate in an amateur tournament.