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« | Home | »

Thursday trash talk: Roy Jones Jr. vs. Dana White

By Zach Arnold | April 10, 2008

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  1. The Canadian Press: One year after winning UFC title, Matt Serra is still looking for respect (and magazine covers)
  2. The Times-Herald Record (NY): UFC dangles upstate fights
  3. The Ilford Recorder (UK): Khalid Ismail goes into the lion’s cage
  4. Adam Swift: HDNet vs. Zuffa remanded to state court
  5. Kevin Iole: Travis Lutter gets chance for redemption
  6. MMA Analyst: Kevin Iole doesn’t get it
  7. Logan Clark’s Mom: Ultimate fighting takes family members back to Vegas for WEC
  8. K-1 HP: World MAX 4/9 Hiroshima Green Arena event results
  9. Bloody Elbow: Roy Jones Jr. slams Dana White
  10. MMA Madness: Ryoto Machida – the unknown dragon
  11. Dave Walsh (Total MMA): The Cung Le Myth – tested or untested?
  12. MMA Opinion: Interview with Matt Riddle from TUF 7
  13. Steve Sievert: James Thompson served up for Kimbo Slice’s CBS debut

Topics: Boxing, HDNet, Japan, Media, MMA, UFC, UK, Zach Arnold | 31 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

31 Responses to “Thursday trash talk: Roy Jones Jr. vs. Dana White”

  1. Rohan says:

    James Thompson? Interesting choice – the guy seems incredibly prone to flash knockouts (and indeed proper knockouts when put in with good MMA fighters) but I wouldn’t bet on him losing to Kimbo Slice.

  2. Jim Allcorn says:

    Unfortunately Rohan, I would.

    IMO, signing on James Thompson as Kimbo’s opponent for the CBS debut show is about as close as Shaw & co. can get to making a worked bout the headliner. While I expect the large UK lad to show up with the intent of putting forth a much more honest effort than did any of “The Internet Legend’s” previous three opponents, the sad fact is that Thompson’s chin will spectacularly fail him just as it has done so many times before.

    Hell, were Thompson to merely possess a “glass jaw”, I might be willing to go out on a limb as well, in regards to his chances at an upset victory over the ridiculously over-hyped Miami product. But, IMO, poor Thompson’s chin can only aspire to be as sturdy as class. You know, once in a while, the occasional bottle or drinking glass will actually survive the impact of a fall when dropped & come out of it unscathed. However, the same can’t be said for the much more delicate fine bone china that Thompson’s chin is made of …

    Let’s face it, Thompson’s TOTAL lack of punch resistance is of the freakish sort that used to be put on display at carnivals during the first half of the last century. The sort demonstrated by the sideshow’s attraction’s ability to actually knock himself spark out with a blow from his own fist!

    THAT’s how weak I see Thompson’s beard as being.

  3. Ultimo Santa says:

    I have to comment on the aarticle The Cung Le Myth: Tested or Untested? by Dave Walsh.

    “Think Cung Le is capable of dissecting Anderson Silva?”

    If Anderson Silva made the decision to stand up with Cung Le, like Frank Shamrock did, then yes, Silva *could* lose.

    If Anderson got in trouble and pulled guard (which Frank was too proud to do) then it turns into a BBJ match. And of course, the smart money is on Silva.

    And while the Shamrock over-bashing continues, anyone who saw his pre-fight interviews knows that Frank believes that the future of MMA is stand-up fighting, and that he was intentionally not taking the fight to the ground. If Shamrock had taken Le down and submitted him, we’d be hearing a) Shamrock sucks because he couldn’t stand up with Cung Le, and b) Le sucks because he has no ground skills.

    “(Cung Le) goes in there and ‘point fights’ with his fancy kicks that connect but do little damage”

    Frank Shamrock’s forearm would argue that his kicks do little damage.

    Anyone who has ever fought, or even sparred, with someone who is a competitive kickboxer, muay thai boxer, etc. could not possibly look at Le kicking someone and claim it’s doing ‘little damage’.

    I understand most MMA fans online are just that – fans – and have never, and likely *will* never, come close to taking a real punch or kick in their entire lives. But making an argument like that is completely ignorant, and shows your complete lack of knowledge when it comes to combat sports.

    “especially when he beat storied journeyman Shonie Carter for said title”

    The same ‘journeyman’ who KOed current UFC Welterweight Champion Matt Serra? Not everyone has an undefeated record (which these days, doesn’t even get you respect online!) but if you’re competing at that level, you’re dangerous.

    “Frank, while he hasn’t exactly been publicly ducking top competition, has made no real effort to hunt down and fight top competition”

    No mystery here. Shamrock has stated several times that he wants to fight guys who will SELL TICKETS. Period.

    It just so happens that Phil Baroni cuts an excellent promo, and is a great heel, which = asses in seats. Cung Le, obviously, puts asses in seats as well (at least in San Jose).

    If Matt Lindland could help Shamrock put 15,000 people in an arena, I’m sure that fight would take place.

    “but you just got the feeling that to Frank most of the fight was a heavy sparring session”

    I think the closest this writer has come to a legitimate fight was when he and his opponent were 8-years-old, and holding large pillows.

    Did you see the welts on Cung Le’s face after the fight? The bruises all over Frank Shamrock? I don’t know many people who come out of a ‘sparring session’ looking like that – heavy or not.

    “we really can’t know if Cung Le is what his hype has built him up to be, or if he is simply a protected, aging martial artist being fed guys he can easily dispose of”

    It seems that there is only one debate you’re allowed to have if you’re a ‘Hardcore MMA fan’ online: who is the absolute best-of-the-best in any given weight class. The end.

    I’ve had enough of “Can Cung Le destroy Anderson Silva? If not, he sucks!” We may never know the answer, and there’s a good chance Le may never go to the UFC and fight for the Middleweight title.

    But I think it’s enough of an honor to be called a great fighter, an entertaining fighter, and to have a legitimate victory over someone like Frank Shamrock.

    Yes, Cung Le has been tested – and maybe he’s not the ABSOLUTE best, but he’s great. It’s not necessary to label every single fighter with the tag “best” or “shit”.

  4. cyph says:

    MMA Madness could be a very decent site. Excellent writing so far with a great fighter database and social networking features(!). So far, very impressive.

    However, Danny Acosta may want to tone down his Victorian prose. Sports fans aren’t exactly the types who would read “Pride and Prejudice” (I’m generalizing here) or appreciate flowery writing. Poetic, but out of place. Their writings are better than the UFC’s main writers, in my opinion.

  5. cyph says:

    I agree with Iole. Thompson is a horrible opponent. The guy’s claim to fame was his chiseled physique and enormous size. Any one noticed the stark contrast between Thompson’s Japan physique vs the current physique? What happened to the Greek god chiseled look? ^_^ No wonder he lost 6 of 8.

  6. Rohan says:

    Mmmm. Maybe I’ve completely misjudged this one. Believe it or not I’ve actually seen Thompson take a good punch live and stay up (can’t remember which cage rage) and I’ve also seen him go down off a flash knockout and actually be okay – but I’ve also seen him felled like a tree as well.

    Ahh well at least those rumours of Elite concentrating on top quality contests instead of freak shows has given way to market pressures! This is a proper old school PRIDE/Cage Rage freak show main event! And you gotta love that given they have a proper contents in the semi-main to satisfy the hardcore.

  7. The Gaijin says:

    But cyph 5 of 7 losses(other than against Rogers in the 6 of 8) came in Japan and UK. I really don’t think his crappy losing record has anything to do with access or no access to steroids. A lot more to do with you know…sucking unrelentingly.

  8. The Gaijin says:

    As for Serra complaining about “respect” – you haven’t defended your title in a year and your loss was by and large considered a fluke, not to mention getting the title shot ahead of several more deserving guys b/c he won a reality show. What does he expect?

  9. If you think James Thompson is a bad opponent quality-wise, you’re right.

    However, Iole doesn’t even think about the entertainment aspect or the majority group of the MMA fanbase at all when assessing the matchup. Particularly, casual fans want to see Kimbo fight, and there is nothing more drawing for casual fans that having Kimbo Slice knock James Thompson’s block off.

    The quality of opponent really doesn’t matter in this case, but at least Thompson has experience and who knows… he has Xtreme Couture behind him now.

    I completely disagree that it’s a terrible matchup when looking at the big picture. A quality fight? No it isn’t, but would that help EliteXC move up in the MMA world by using Kimbo, no.

  10. Grape Knee High says:

    Any one noticed the stark contrast between Thompson’s Japan physique vs the current physique?

    Anyone notice the stark contrast between Machida’s Japan physique vs his current physique?

    Must be the water in the US…

  11. Dave says:

    Ultimo Santa — I’m honored at how absolutely incited you are.

    For the record (not that its worth much); 10 years of Kenpo, 2 of BJJ and Muay Thai, 2 am fights in Mass/RI.

    Also for the record: I love Frank Shamrock, think he is awesome, but also think he really wasn’t putting his all into that fight at all times and took Cung Le a bit lightly. Cung Le has potential to be great (which isn’t saying HE SUCKS, christ), but at the same time is older and might never live up to that potential.

    … And Shonie Carter defense? Wow.

  12. Dave says:

    Also, for what its worth, the first thing quoted was part of the joke/conjecture tag-lines I always put on stuff to get people to post about it on the forums (as our comments are ever-broken).

    Its a lot more fun than a straight link.

  13. IceMuncher says:

    Kimbo’s moving up in the world. His last fight was with a guy who was 1-7 in his last 8, now he’s fighting a guy who’s 2-6 in his last 8. Just think, in only a few more fights we may actually get to see Kimbo fight a guy who’s got a winning record in his last 8 fights.

    Ultimo says – “I think the closest this writer has come to a legitimate fight was when he and his opponent were 8-years-old, and holding large pillows.

    Did you see the welts on Cung Le’s face after the fight? The bruises all over Frank Shamrock? I don’t know many people who come out of a ‘sparring session’ looking like that – heavy or not.”

    Ultimo, before you get too far ahead of yourself, have you ever trained? That was rhetorical, I already know. After “heavy” sparring, I’d have bruises all over thighs, my ribs, puffy welts on my shin from when they checked my low kick (the force went through the shin pads we wore like there was nothing there, it felt like bone on bone). I even got KO’d from a picture-perfect (or so I heard later) head kick. It makes me shake my head in wonder to read you rant on about how the author doesn’t know what it’s like to fight, when you obviously haven’t got the faintest idea yourself. You should really have first-hand knowledge before you rip on someone for not knowing what it’s like to spar.

    Fact of the matter is, that fight DID look like a heavy sparring session, especially with all the breaks where they’d touch gloves after a good shot landed.

  14. cyph says:

    Anyone notice the stark contrast between Machida’s Japan physique vs his current physique?

    Must be the water in the US…

    That would make sense if Machida didn’t look like BJ Penn before cutting weight and now looks like a normal MMA fighter. Hardly rock hard chiseled as Japanese version Thompson, Bob Sapp, etc.

    Classic GKH. Disprove something by accusing something else.

  15. The Gaijin says:

    I thought Machida always fought at 205 no?

    I do think that he does look far more muscular and defined as a 205er in the UFC than compared to in K-1 when he fought Greco, Franklin and Penn.

    I really think he should be fighting at 185 and believe he’d give Anderson Silva a real run for his money at that weight, for sure standing (bizarre/hypnotic/cautious style) and on the ground he seems quite competent.

  16. Ultimo_Santa says:

    IceMuncher = if you leave a sparring session with a shattered forearm, cuts and bruises all over your face, and massive welts, then you’re probably doing it wrong.

    *OR*, there’s the distinct possibility that you’re the biggest arsehole in your gym, and everyone is trying to kill you in training…and by most of your past comments, that wouldn’t really surprise me. 😉

    Peace out~

  17. Grape Knee High says:

    Who is trying to disprove anything? Shit, if anything, I’m way more likely than anyone else here to agree with you that many fighters in PRIDE abused steroids.

    Just pointing out that accusations go both ways.

  18. ttt says:

    er… did anybody watch the K-1 MAX fights? dun wanna spoil anything, but there were some decent fights, at least the ones involving former winners

  19. TOMMY says:

    wow! a story entitled kevin iole doesnt get it.
    now that’s written by someone who is a master of the obvious.
    when has iole ever written a good mma story.
    what does he even know about mma? my next door neighbor could cover the sport better than that hack.

  20. ilostmydog says:


    Machida was fighting ~215ish in Japan. I don’t think he ever cut weight there.

  21. cyph says:

    Everyone is free to accuse if you have a basis for it. Back it up with your reasoning. I have never accused anyone without at least visual evidence or reasoning behind it.

    You accuse Machida of juicing when all logic goes against it. He goes from chubby to lean. He goes from a non-testing organization to a testing organization. He was undefeated in Japan and is still undefeated in the US. His performance has never changed since the switch, although he’s improving which is a natural progression of any athlete. See how we should use some form of logic , reasoning or evidence to back up our analysis or else we’d be no different than the Sherdog forums flaming at each other with no rhyme or reason.

  22. Grape Knee High says:

    cyph, the problem is that you put way too much faith in this statement: “He goes from a non-testing organization to a testing organization.”

    Testing does not mean shit. As Gaijin mentioned previously, any time a fighter like Sherk tests positive, it puts into question ALL of previous negative tests.

    Just because you refuse to acknowledge that the current system of testing is merely an intelligence test does not make it untrue.

    And, guess what? “Visual evidence” without actual proof is not “reasoning”. It’s called “conjecture”.

    And, again, you can keep ignoring this if you want, but a trusted insider like Dave Meltzer coming out and saying that a shitload of UFC fighters juice is way more convincing to me that your 45 Huddle-like “visual evidence”, which could just as easily be caused by eating too many Krispy Kremes.

    And, again, just so you don’t keep going off on wild tangents, I’m pointing out your hypocrisy and UFC fanboyism here, not your stance that the Japanese MMA scene had a steroid problem. You simply have not been applying the same “reasoning” (if you can call it that) to UFC fighters as you do with PRIDE fighters, even though more UFC fighters have tested positive for steroids.

  23. cyph says:

    Broken record. Please go back several posts to last week Bob Sapp article for this discussions.

    It’s amazing how you steer a comment like me comparing Thompson’s physiques (which any blind man can see) to your accusation of UFC fighters juicinig? Who’s on a wild tangent now? GKH, you’re no different than the Sherdog fanboys. You like to flame, you like to call names, and you lash out at comments you don’t like but never truly address the original premise.

    This is a thread with you involved:

    Me: Look at the difference in his physique!
    GKH: Machida is a juicer! You UFC fanboy! Testing doesn’t mean shit! Anyone with a brain can pass the NSAC testing!

    See how you like to steer comments away from something and then attack something else to draw attention away from it? This what they call a “straw man.”

  24. cyph says:

    And, guess what? “Visual evidence” without actual proof is not “reasoning”. It’s called “conjecture”.

    I have never said anything about proof. I merely stated that I noticed a great difference in his physique. Classic GKH.

    Description of Straw Man

    The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of “reasoning” has the following pattern:

    1. Person A has position X.
    2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
    3. Person B attacks position Y.
    4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

    This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

  25. Grape Knee High says:

    Yeah, I could see why you’d think it would be a straw man. If I were trying to refute that Thompson was on steroids, but I wasn’t. I’ve never really thought about Thompson and steroids, but I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he was.

    It just gets boring hearing you mindlessly throw around steroid accusations about overseas fighters, when at the same time you spout nonsense about how “it’s not cheating if take steroids but don’t test positive” and your refusal to apply the same standards to UFC fighters in general.

    And all I did was throw a mindless accusation back at you. If you can throw around accusations of steroid abuse with proof, so can I.

  26. Grape Knee High says:

    ^^ that should say “without proof” in the last sentence.

  27. cyph says:

    I’ll explain to you why I think this in a reasonable and logical manner. If you disagree, that’s fine. But tell me where my logic fails me.

    Some Pride fighters (I’m not accusing all here) have noticeable differences in physical muscle definition visually. Their ability seems to drop off. Their ferocity seems to drop off. They are more prone to injuries over here. They seem to have problems making weight (Filho).

    Conclusion: I believe they were juicing and had to get off it. Do I have proof? No, but I’m making a educated guess based on these circumstantial evidence. Can we prove one way or another? No.

    Retort 1: But Pride fighters are champs!
    However, this does NOT disprove that some fighters were juicing. We could conclude that these current champs (a) improved or (b) were not able to get over the hump of fighting juiced up fighters.

    Let me be clear. Just because some Pride fighters juice does not mean that I am accusing all Pride fighters of juicing or that they suck because they juice. That’s a fallacy that causes so many Pride fans to get up in arms about it. Fedor, Rampage, Anderson Silva, Nogueira may or may not have juiced. They physically look the same. Their performance have stayed the same. Conclusion: They probably did not juice. Can we prove it one way or another? No.

    Now, why do I not accuse UFC fighters of juicing? There are no circumstantial evidence of that in videos, performance, or any linking evidence. Can we prove that they did not juice? Yes! They pass the drug test!

    If Pride had instituted a drug test by an impartial third party, then I’d have to throw all circumstantial evidence out and admit that even with my bias, I have to admit that they have been proven to be innocent. But there was and still no such test in place.

    When you pass the best testing system currently available, then you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. When a person is proven innocent in front of a jury, then he’s innocent. You may still suspect he’s guilty, but he deserves the benefit of the doubt. That’s the difference. You can’t accuse someone of murder when he’s proven to be innocent.

    I believe the UFC, EliteXC, Strikeforce fighters deserve that benefit if they take the test and pass it, regardless of how inadequate you feel the testing system is.

  28. Grape Knee High says:

    cyph, I mostly agree about PRIDE fighters. Let’s face it, the big two that every wonders about are Wandy and Shogun. However, I think there’s more pre-UFC circumstantial evidence that they both juiced, than afterwards since they’ve been in the UFC. (I can elaborate on this if you want, but the fact is that Wandy is more ripped now that he ever was and he has passed his tests.)

    Regarding, UFC and their testing standard, I absolutely, positively disagree that they deserve the benefit of the doubt. And also with your statement that “it’s not cheating if take steroids and don’t test positive”.

    The fact that current and former UFC fighters like Sherk, Baroni, Royce, Belfort, Barnett, Sylvia, Bonnar and Franca have gotten caught — which again puts all their previous positive tests in a much different light — and the fact that that not every fighter on every card is actually tested.

    Notice the high correlation in the positive steroid tests and those of headline or title fights? We know for a fact that the only fighters that are *always* tested are the headliners and title matches. This should lead you see that maybe something is there.

    We all know for a FACT that you can cycle steroids to pass these tests. And insiders to the sport — people who know way more than the two of us — attest to this fact and the fact that UFC fighters juice and don’t get caught.

    Again, look at cycling and Olympic sports. They perform more extensive testing and you’d have to be an idiot not to realize there’s a steroid problem in those sports, which prove that testing does not mean a clean athletes by any stretch of the imagination.

    Certainly, this looks to me to be way more damning than mere mindless conjecture (by the both of us) regarding physiques of overseas fighters coming over from Japan.

  29. cyph says:

    Fightlinker reports that the NSAC has now moved forward with year around and any time testings. Fighters will find that it’s much harder to cycle on and off.

    This further highlights the inadequacy of the system in Japan. It also diminishes the accomplishments of fighters over there because anyone could come under suspicions even if they are legit. That’s too bad.

  30. The Gaijin says:

    ^ Agreed.

    And glad to see that the NSAC is starting to institute their tougher standards.

    I don’t want to see MMA realizing the tragedies like those of WWE and professional wrestling in the last 5-10 years. It will do nothing short of completely vilify and marginalize the sport if we have guys dropping dead in their mid-40s.

  31. The Gaijin says:

    Although I guess it hasn’t really done anything to football – but I guess that’s an “apples/oranges” thing.


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