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Tuesday turmoil: More on UFC 75 and Bisping/Hamill
By Zach Arnold | September 10, 2007
Real live MMA and fighting happening in Ulan Bator, Mongolia. Surely, Jordan Breen is on the case.
K-1 announced Sergey Kharitonov vs. Alistair Overeem and Fabio Silva vs. Melvin Manhoef for their 9/17 Yokohama Arena event. Kharitonov was promoted in Japan today as being associated with Volk Han.
Sports Illustrated has an article claiming that one of the things they learned from UFC 75 is that PRIDE was overrated.
Steroid Nation (a great site) has suggestions about what baseball should do to clean up its doping problems. Any ideas from that post that could apply to the way current drug testing is done in MMA?
Alexander Emelianenko vs. Cabbage Correira set for Calgary on October 19th.
UFC judges Cecil Peoples and Jeff Mullen appeared on Fight Network Radio to defend their scoring in the Matt Hamill vs. Michael Bisping fight. Peoples said that ‘other than those two weak takedowns,’ he ‘saw nothing’ from Hamill in the fight. The only reason Peoples can come up with for the uproar about the judges’ decision is that “people like controversy.” A site commenter labels the PR blitz by the judges as ‘damage control.’ And those of you critical of the decision? Whiners. Who wins the re-match? Dave Meltzer says the ten point must system in MMA has some flaws. Meltzer was formerly a judge at an UFC event.
Even if Bisping’s win was ‘tainted,’ it is fascinating to watch how much publicity and talk amongst both the media and the hardcore fans there is about this match. Rampage vs. Henderson was a quality main event and was marketed as champion vs. champion, and yet here we are talking about another fight on that show. UFC is noticing this and MMA Analyst looks at the fight with an empirical look.
“In a very short time the IFL has shown that they have created an all encompassing business model that is very attractive to sponsors, fans and the media, and we are very excited to help them grow their model and the sport of Mixed Martial Arts,” said Randy Bernstein, Premier president and CEO.
Stephen Brunt in The Globe and Mail comparing the violence in the NFL to violence in MMA:
Even mixed martial arts, which has offended all kinds of folks and inspired all kinds of horrified commentary, is as safe as solitaire compared to football. There’s plenty of blood, but the bouts are stopped quickly, and fighters can surrender honourably. No one in mixed martial arts is going to be concussed, then sent right back out to be immediately concussed again.
I found this interesting article on Karl Gotch and thought it might be of interest to some of the readers.
Op-ed: UFC influences men to get in fights.
Onto today’s headlines.
- UFC HP: Wilson Gouveia injured, forced to withdraw from UFC 76 bout
- Sherdog radio: Nick Diaz uncensored
- The Fight Network: Joe Riggs vs. Eugene Jackson set for Strikeforce 9/29 Playboy Mansion event
- MMA Weekly: The latest with Ed Fishman
- Fightlinker: Why won’t anyone hold judges accountable?
- TMZ: Tito Ortiz – Damn! I get to hit that every day!
- The Sun (UK): Bisping booed after Hamill win
- The Del Rio News-Herald (TX): MMA fights headed to Del Rio Civic Center
- MMA Man: Upcoming MMA events in Japan
- Radio (Eddie Goldman): Interview with Phyllis Lee
- The Fightworks Podcast: Randy Couture’s new book Wrestling for Fighting
Topics: HERO's, IFL, Japan, K-1, Media, MMA, PRIDE, Pro-Wrestling, UFC, UK, Zach Arnold | 92 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
The fight between champions was a solid and interesting fight to hardcore fans. A little less so to the not-so-hardcore fans since there was so much going on in the clinch and on the ground that many don’t have the patience yet to pay attention to and understand or appreciate.
I guess since there was no spectacular finish, it’s why we’re talking about what was a really poor MMA bout from the point of view of overall skill on display, Bisping vs Hamill.
I love that Sports Illustrated is calling Pride overrated.
Josh Gross echoed similar sentiments on his radio show regarding the HW division.
The SI shoots themselves in the foot with this quote “Though Jackson has extensive Pride experience, I’m counting him with UFC because that’s where he has been of late”. It’s worth noting that Rampage has 2 UFC fights and 16 PRIDE fights.
Actually the real argument for counting Jackson as UFC is that PRIDE wanted him gone after his fight with Yoon Dong Sik for not performing well. PRIDE wanted him gone, and he left. They left on bad terms and Jackson even revelaed that he would of been paid extra for taking a dive against Sakuraba.
That’s the real reason why Jackson should be UFC.
No you’re looking at it the wrong way. The question is not if Rampage currently should be viewed as a UFC or a PRIDE fighter, we know he’s a UFC fighter – and so is Henderson and Mirko for that matter.
The argument is that if you say PRIDE was so overrated you have to take into account that Rampage was a part of that organization for a long time. He was part of creating the image of PRIDE had superior fighters by beating Chuck the first time.
SI: “Though Jackson has extensive Pride experience, I’m counting him with UFC because that’s where he has been of late, and was when Zuffa acquired Pride and the UFC/Pride debate heated up”
Oh, is that so? Jackson is suddenly a homegrown UFC-fighter? This article stinks on so many levels. For example, claiming that the UFC/Pride debate is a recent phenomenon is ridiculous. That debate has been going on for years now.
What, journalists lie? No shit?
The Pride Heavyweight Division was overrated. I think every fan thought it was better then it was. Makes you wonder if Fedor could run through all of these guys like Sylvia, Arlovski, Couture, Vera, and others…..
It’s amazing that mainstream media sources have such crappy writing. Why don’t they pick up a knowledgable writer who actually has seen PRIDE? ESPN has the same type of deal. They use Sherdog’s content, but still have their own writers create crappy articles. Why don’t they just let the people who actually deal with the industry on a daily basis cover the events and articles instead of looking like complete idiots. Stating the Rampage is a UFC fighter is absurd if you are basing it on the number of fights in either organization. I’ve always thought of Rampage as a PRIDE fighter, along with Shogun, Henderson, the list goes on.
I don’t think there is any doubt about MMA being more violent than either boxing or football. It is. However, both boxing and football have proven themselves to be more injurious to their practitioners. That’s the thing. It seems counter-intuitive that something more violent is safer. People who get into the sport understand this, at least on an instinctive level. Casual observers look at the blood and extreme violence and, understandably, draw the conclusion that the sport is worse that football or boxing. How do you educate people about a subtle point when so many of them are immediately repulsed by the violence?
My favorite sport is NFL football, no contest. And I’m far from alone. Furthermore, I don’t have to pay for watching my team. Zuffa should consider that when scheduling their events in the next three or four months.
Saying ‘PRIDE was overrated’ is such a bullshit generalization it’s rediculous.
First of all, it’s jeuvenile and overly simplistic, but if you want to keep score in meaningful fights, PRIDE veteran Anderson Silva took the Middleweight Title from Franklin and made him look like a fool, and Jackson KOed Liddell, took his title and destroyed his entire mystique in around one minute.
Yes, a battered and unfocused Miko CroCop has not looked impressive in the UFC against the crop of new talent. So what? What the fuck does that have to do with PRIDE being overrated? They had a better rule system, a better judging system, a ring and not a silly cage (which is just a marketing tool to impress noobs “WOW! It’s like a WWF steel cage match…but REAL!”) and most of all, more exciting match-ups.
I am in agreement with anyone that points out that the NFL is WAY more dangerous than MMA overall. Funny, though, that the NFL comparisons come up today. Kevin Everett, of the Buffalo Bills, just got paralyzed below the neck this Sunday from an attempted tackle and his condition may still be potentially fatal. Just from a quality of life standpoint, many football players with long careers can barely use their hands functionally later in life (especially lineman), and many have trouble walking and running by the time they hit 40.
As a related point, the only thing that really scares me as far as MMA are the potential head spikes from slams (ala Randleman on Fedor). I do think sometimes fighters try to spike their opponents heads on purpose with a slam, and I think these types of moves should have a point deduction even with no warning.
Re: PRIDE vs UFC
Clearly, some questions will be answered with Aleks vs. Cabbage. (I’m kidding. Kind of.)
In all seriousness, it’s fighter vs. fighter (with rules and environment also at play), rather than PRIDE vs. UFC. I agree that some PRIDE fighters are overrated — witness the flame war I had with Gaijin months back where I said that Fedor is a great fighter, but overrated simply on the basis that his three best wins were against undersized HWs in Cro Cop and Big Nog. We simply don’t know yet how he’d do against a larger, skilled fighter because he has never fought one.
That said, anyone who discounts PRIDE’s fighters based on Cro Cop’s losses and ignores the fact that a fighter who was good, but not great in PRIDE is now LHW champ, and a fighter who was mediocre in PRIDE is now MW champ is just biased. Or is a moron. Or both.
Henderson should fight Silva for Midweight once Franklin is disposed of.
Meantime, Lindland should be brought in to challenge Filho.
Too bad SI didnt talk about PRIDE in its hayday.
I think it’s beyond obvious that PRIDE had a better HW-division since around 2003/03, but only in terms of depth. The talent on top has not been of as different quality as commonly perceived, and it’s being proven now just like it was then(Take Rodriguez vs. Nog for instance).
“As a related point, the only thing that really scares me as far as MMA are the potential head spikes from slams (ala Randleman on Fedor). I do think sometimes fighters try to spike their opponents heads on purpose with a slam, and I think these types of moves should have a point deduction even with no warning.”
On a related note, during the promos before the Torres/Bedard fight at the last WEC, Jeff Bedard excalimed “I’m going to go in there, pick him up and spike him on his head.” -which is, of course, a violation of the rules. I understand that he was being hyperbolic, but really, its no different from saying “I’m gonna go in there and kick him in the nuts.”
Thank you SHINOBU for bringing MMA to Mongolia.
Is it illegal to head-drop someone in the UFC? I’ve never heard that rule. Although it is pretty difficult to actually pull it off intentionally, I would imagine.
MMA needs more Northern Light Bombs.
That SI article is horrible, absolutely horrible. Instead of finding facts, he puts the “supposedly” into it. Crocop supposedly trained in a cage, are you kidding me? There are many videos of his training. Crocop flat out couldn’t handle the size and power of Kongo, and he was useless after the 1st round, possibly due to the busted rib.
Rampage is a UFC guy? Ok, sure… he only fought most of his fights in PRIDE. Rampage’s style just transitions well to UFC.
Does anyone remember the UFC’s that Meltzer judged? I want to say that he was the judge on the two UFCs Bas Rutten fought on but I could be wrong.
“It’s worth noting that Rampage has 2 UFC fights and 16 PRIDE fights.”
Three.
“They left on bad terms and Jackson even revelaed that he would of been paid extra for taking a dive against Sakuraba.”
This quote got bastardized. There was a win or lose bonus….as long as you didn’t go to decision, to prevent against stalling.
“The Pride Heavyweight Division was overrated. I think every fan thought it was better then it was. Makes you wonder if Fedor could run through all of these guys like Sylvia, Arlovski, Couture, Vera, and others…..”
Actually, it was pretty stacked, especially compared to UFC at the time. It’s funny to put Cro Cop in against Kongo/Gonzaga, two guys who weren’t even on the radar at the time where the UFC’s HW division was considered pretty weak. Let Cro Cop fight Eilers & Cabbage. I’d still pay to see Cro Cop vs Sylvia and Arlovski. It’s disappointing that his rep is shot before we got to see those two fights which we’ve been waiting for for several years.
By the way….Ultimo Santa moonsaulted the correct.
Pride FC didn’t test for steroids. ‘Nuff said.
LOL. And at the time, we had two UFC HW champs test positive. Everyone uses. Only the morons get caught.
Frankly, I’m amazed that Randy Couture has managed to physically peak at the age of 43 and no one is even whispering that it might be due to performance enhancers.
This is not the same Randy that got beat down by Liddell twice and feebly attempted the world’s worst anaconda for 5 minutes against Van Arsdale. I realize that he’s now the third rail in MMA, much like no one checked Wayne Gretzky, but let’s be realistic here. No one physically peaks at the age of 43 without some help.
UFC doesn’t really test for steroids either. They don’t test where there’s no commissions and they don’t test all fighters. So to say “PRIDE didn’t test for steroids. Nuff said” is fucking stupid.
I stand by the classic arguments of PRIDE vs. UFC back in the 2002-2005 that PRIDE ‘WAS’ superior and I don’t think I’d be far off. Following that, PRIDE began to weaken and UFC really started picking up steam and was able to start bringing in some big guns…the superiority diminished and/or was eliminated.
Now basically everyone fights in the UFC. There’s still been fairly little crossover fights, so to be able to give any kind of definitive answer would be somewhat premature. Cro Cop certainly has shown that he very likely was overrated and/or does not transition well to the UFC…one can only wonder if there would be somewhat different results in the “UFC vs. PRIDE” fights, were they held under the PRIDE rules and judging that the PRIDE fighters were used to. And one can’t help to “lol” at the thought that a fight between two PRIDE stalwarts is being used as some primary arguing points for PRIDE being overrated…I think some have already easily shown that you could just as well say “a guy that got decimated on his way out of PRIDE came to the UFC and destroyed their ‘invincible’ champ”.
Was PRIDE overrated? Yes, I think that would be fair to say. But does counting guys that were never on the radar during the heat of the debate and using them as proof? It’s a bit of a suspect argument. I think more of this debate will be settled when we see the rest of the 205 division sort itself out, as I always found this to be the most heated area of contention.
Again its always going to be a somewhat imperfect argument b/c it would have been really nice to see fights in 2003 and 2004 rather than 3-4 years down the road with so many fighters getting on in age (and Randy seeming to be one of the few that’s getting better).
I think the poster that put it best when they said, “its fighter vs. fighter” when you really boil it down. Some guys styles just match up perfectly against some and very poorly against others. (Oh right my old foe GKH – well said.)
Heaven forbid that Randy Couture is the exception to the rule. No, it couldn’t be that! He gets tested each time he fights since he’s the champ and he passes with flying colors. In the face of scientific evidence, you would still declare him guilty of a crime. Lets be reasonable here!
Fedor can take horse steroids at 44 and he won’t be able to fight like Randy Couture at 44. Genetics make a big difference. You probably think George Foreman is doping too? Why defend Pride when you can cast blame on everyone.
If UFC fighters are caught with doping when there is testing, imagine the numbers of fighters in Japan that are taking the needle. I shudder at the thought. Is it a coincidence that some of the more “invincible” fighters seem to be brought down to earth when they come over to the UFC? Is it any coincidence that some of the “middle of the road” fighters turn out to be much better in the UFC? Could it possibly be that the sports commission with their steroid testing has leveled the playing field over here?
I don’t know, man. The Cro Cop that won the OWGP looks like a man possessed–as if someone murdered his wife and he’s out for revenge. The CroCop in the UFC looks like a timid fighter who’s afraid to get hit. No proof here, just anecdotal evidence.
Randy has not physically peaked at 44. He has hit a technical peak and he has found the game strategies and tactics that suit him most. He may or may not have “help” but to say he is at his physical best is obviously not true.
Wow! Amazing. I cant believe it. I wrote the author of that SI article an email blasting him for saying that Pride was overrated. Needless to say, the email was very strongly worded. I’m surprised he even responded, but here was his response:
Thanks for writing. In my haste to cut through some of what I saw as Pride hype (reading too many Sherdog threads!) I made a stupid argument. You’re right, as are the other letter writers. I’ll respond to it in my next column and award that round to the readers.
dave
Has anyone commented on this Nick Diaz interview with Sherdog and how absolutely hilarious it is?
So much for no buzz for UFC 75. 3.1 rating, peaks at 5.6 million viewers? Gawd Damn.
Rampage and Cro Cop both have the same number of fights under their belts in the UFC. He considers Rampage UFC because he’s been winning, and still considers Cro Cop PRIDE because he’s been losing.
This seems to be something we will continue to see for a while. Any person from PRIDE that doesn’t do well in the UFC will become proof positive that PRIDE is inferior to the UFC.
The question of which organization is/was better can never be answered. Not because PRIDE is gone, but because there are so many differences that make/made each organization unique. It’s like comparing Apples to Oranges. People will always like one more than the other.
I wrote an email to the author of that SI article, blasting him for saying that somehow UFC 75 proved that Pride was overrated. His response was amazing, really.
Woooooahhh….where ANYWHERE did I make any accusation against Couture? Not ONCE did I make that argument, in fact it had nothing to do with anything I said. The only mention of “doping” was that your argument of “PRIDE didn’t test…”, which was fucking stupid b/c when they did test in the US, ALL of their ‘elite’ guys were clean. Much like all/most of the UFC guys test clean. It’s a fucking IQ test, guys in the UFC could just as easily be doping as PRIDE fighters b/c the commission testing has more holes than swiss cheese.
All I said was that out of almost every fighter that was involved in the height of the debates of PRIDE vs. UFC (2002-2005), Randy is the only guy that doesn’t seem to be declining in one way or another (i.e. CC, Silva, Liddell, Nog, Fedor (?), Lil Nog, Arona, Arlovski, Sylvia, Tito). Thus it sucks that they weren’t having crossover fights at the times that everyone was seemingly at their peak and the “promotional feud”-aura was there…and thus its lost a lot of its lustre and relevance.
Get a fucking grip man…someone’s got a real boner to defend the UFC or something – sheesh.
George Foreman came back to fight in one of the weakest HW divisions in boxing ever (at the time), so I really don’t follow you. And he looked terrible and won b/c he still had heavy hands (the last thing to go) and fought an oversized cruiserweight.
Who knows if Randy never used just because he tested clean. HGH has never been tested for and would be the perfect drug to be using, especially for a guy getting up there in years. He could retain and build muscle mass w/o having to maintain an intense training regime (thus less likely to be injured – esp given his long career) and also maintain a very low fat mass. Also, during the height of the Bonds fiasco, there was evidence forwarded by leading physicians saying that it was (almost)physiologically impossible for a man in his late 30’s and early 40’s to continue to maintain and/or increase their muscle mass due to decreasing levels of testosterone and other hormone ratios.
While I never accused Randy of anything, you just jumped the gun like some pathetic apologist, that’s some definite food for thought seeing that the guy at 44 came into his last fight at the biggest he’s been yet (not to mention his head and jaw seem to be bigger than ever as well).
Again, there’s no proof of this (it’s the equivalent to, “PRIDE guys had body fat”) and I don’t really believe it either. But it’s just as credible an argument as yours.
It was the post right before yours. I replied to his not yours, it just so happened that your post posted right before mine.
I was a Pride fan before I was a UFC fan. I would call myself an MMA fan. I am not for or against any organization. I call it as I see it. I am not trying to defend the UFC or have a vendetta against Pride.
Of course the elite guys were clean when they tested in America. They knew they were getting tested. Amazing how that goes, huh? The notable difference, in my opinion (so no need to debate this), is that Wanderlei Silva would have likely won in Japan. The difference I’ve seen in CroCop’s demeanor is the same that I saw in Wanderlei. He was lethargic and less axe-murderor-like, if that was a word. Hell, you can see it in his stare down with Henderson. That was the first time I’ve seen the axe murderer without his signature stare down. Coincidence? Perhaps. Or perhaps he was not juicing for that fight and that was the first time he had fear in his eyes.
It doesn’t matter if Foreman fought in a weak division. He beat up guys 10 years younger than himself. I don’t care how weak a division is in boxing, a 46 year old man beating up on PROFESSIONAL BOXERS is quite a feat.
Gaijin, I think someone responded to my insinuation that Couture juices.
Do I have proof? Of course not. But I do have the laws of physics and medicine and years of historical performance of high level athletes on my side. George Foreman aside — seriously, is that really your rebuttal? — all evidence points to a degradation of sporting talent as anyone ages.
And make no mistake, Randy has gotten *better* than he used to be 5 years ago when he used to get beaten down by larger fighters like Ricco and Barnett. Now he’s the one body slamming 260 lb fighters.
And, no, this is not a PRIDE/UFC issue. Like I stated before, I think EVERYONE uses. You’d have to be naive to think that just because the UFC tests some fighters, that no one except the ones who get caught uses.
# PizzaChef Says:
September 11th, 2007 at 12:49 am
“Actually the real argument for counting Jackson as UFC is that PRIDE wanted him gone after his fight with Yoon Dong Sik for not performing well. PRIDE wanted him gone, and he left. They left on bad terms and Jackson even revelaed that he would of been paid extra for taking a dive against Sakuraba.
That’s the real reason why Jackson should be UFC.”
Yeah but then what happened after that? This may be the worst argument I have ever seen trying to make the case for jackson to be considered more of a UFC fighter than Pride. Because your leaving out some of the facts, such as the UFC didn’t want him enough to sign him either. He was picked up by the WFA. And actually he was under the WFA contract for his first two UFC fights. Nice try though
cyphron, do you not see that the same argument you’re using about Cro Cop/Wanderlei applies to Couture as well? (And, yeah, I’d bet all my friggin’ money that CC and Wand both use, or have used in the past.)
Couture looked old, slow and lethargic against Liddell and Van Arsdale. He looked his age.
Then 2 years later he’s goes to dominating 260 lb HWs. Looking quick, aggressive and healthy. Like a man 10 years younger.
Are you people being serious when you say there’s not even a tiny bit of doubt in your mind about where this sudden performance is coming from?
Also, let me add that I don’t really care whether fighters use steroids or not. I have no moral issue with it (other than that usage by popular athletes might encourage kids who don’t understand the consequences to use steroids). They can do whatever they want to their bodies.
However, I do think in the name of fair play that all fighters should be tested and educated.
Grape,
The difference is that Couture dominates while he’s tested while the others wasn’t.
There’s always doubt. But if the Athletic Commission tests him and clears him, then who are we to question it? If you’re going to argue that the commission is corrupt then you have to prove that they’re corrupt. If you’re going to argue that there’s a way around the test, then why is Couture the only one who knows this “secret?”
I follow the facts. Saying that Couture is on steroids even though he tests clean is the same as saying Sean Sherk is clean even though he test positive.
(A) Apologies to cy for doing what i accused you of and leaping for your throat – I just didn’t see the above comment and was bewildered that someone would pull that from my quote.
(B) There is no doubt that Foreman’s win was quite an accomplishment…but to that extent, he still did look terrible and he did beat a completely oversized CW, based almost solely on the fact that he still had some snap in his punches. There’s hardly a parallel b/w Foreman and Couture – probably a bigger parallel to Bonds (w/ Randy).
(C) “They knew they were getting tested. Amazing how that goes, huh? The notable difference, in my opinion (so no need to debate this), is that Wanderlei Silva would have likely won in Japan. The difference I’ve seen in CroCop’s demeanor is the same that I saw in Wanderlei. He was lethargic and less axe-murderor-like, if that was a word.”
It is amazing how that goes – much like how all fighters on UFC (N/America) cards know they might/will be tested and test clean! There’s really very little difference in no testing and testing at a pre-determined time (other than cycling off in time – thus the “IQ test”).
I do agree Silva did not look the same, but in my opinion (thus open to debate) it probably had a lot more to do with coming back too early after a brutal KO loss to a HW (it was like 3 months after – so basically he was KO’d and either came back to training almost immediately or came back and trained little prior to the fight) and likely still suffering PCS.
The two fighters who I think are clean are Shogun and Fedor. If I’m right, I expect them to both dominate in the UFC. Shogun and Fedor have both fought the same way on both sides of the ocean.
Pride’s legacy will ride on Shogun’s performance in two weeks. Anything less than a dismantling of Forrest Griffin will stir more doubts.
The notion that PRIDE is “overrated” is ludacris for a few reasons.
1) Despite what people think, shifting between a ring and a giant enclosed octagan IS a big change. There are advantages and disadvantages between both structures.
2) I would still call Jackson a “PRIDE guy”, even though he hasn’t competed for the company since February of 2006. And the fact that Jackson (Who again, I still thing has the PRIDE aura on him) came into the UFC after one fight and dismantled UFC’s poster boy in two minutes is something of a feather in PRIDE’s cap.
3) Despite the underwhelming performance he’s shown, I don’t think Mirko has been “tainted” or “exposed”. I think RIGHT NOW, he’s no where near the condition he could potentially be. It kind of goes back to my first point, in that switching between the ring and the cage is a dynamic shift. It changes almost everything about your gameplan, from the way you find on the ground, to the way you pace around the ring. However, Mirko also has two other flaws. First, he tries to fight way too often. In PRIDE, Mirko could get away with fighting nine times in a year, between for every Josh Barnett and Emelianenko Fedor they gave him, he was fighting the Minowas, the Dos Caras Jrs, etc. Second, Mirko does not like being stalked. The Fedor fight, and this recent fight with Kongo shows that.
4) UFC still does not have Fedor, and until he comes in and is beaten, I don’t think you can call PRIDE “overrated.”
Don’t get me wrong. I’m no PRIDE fanboy. However, I think saying “PRIDE IS OVERRATED~!” is an incredibly stupid statement.
Michael Moorer was a light heavyweight, not a cruiser, and he was a gigantic one at that. He was a weak titlist at the time when the division was otherwise strong. After all, Foreman was pretty well handled by Morrison and Holyfield, and needed judging help to get him by Axel Schultz.
This talk about Randy looking fast on his feet is crazy talk. He’s slow as hell. Its just that he uses superior technique to that of other guys. He wasn’t winning the standup battle with Gonzaga, but was able to get to the clinch and, like everyone else he ever faced, controlled him in that. Against Sylvia he did the one thing no other Sylvia opponent did to counteract his jab in spite of it being elementary (moving the head) and that got him inside to do his work. If you think he’s in his “physical prime” you aren’t paying attention. He looked slower against Gonzaga than even in the last two bouts with Liddell.
“There’s always doubt. But if the Athletic Commission tests him and clears him, then who are we to question it? If you’re going to argue that the commission is corrupt then you have to prove that they’re corrupt.”
cyphron, this has nothing to do with corruption. Passing a drug test is not some amazing feat. All they have to do is cycle off at the right time or use a substance that is not tested (like HGH).
Well, I won’t argue anymore about Randy “The Third Rail” Couture, since obviously I won’t be convincing anyone soon of anything anytime soon. But going from looking terrible in beating 205-lb Van Arsdale to dominating 255-lb grappling champion Gonzaga looks suspicious to me.
That said, cyphron: I’d agree about Fedor; maybe not. But Shogun? I’d include him in there under the “likely” category, if you ask me.
I think there are some PRIDE fighters who transition well to the Octagon. Saying that PRIDE is overrated is absurd. Quinton Jackson made his mark in PRIDE, that where his name was made and he become a hot commodity. Jackson is a Muay Thai guy with some good wrestling tactics, but he’s very strong. That translates well in the clinch type game that you can play in the Octagon. I think Fedor may have an easier time because he can work reversed off the fence, and he can also use elbows to his already insane ground and pound. People think he will just get smoked, but the fact is, his transitions on the ground are still unbelievably fast and he rarely allows a guy to stay on top of him for very long at all if they are trying to damage his head area.
I do believe there are styles that translate bad in the Octagon. Mirko’s style is definitely one of them, but I thought that with his new training, he’d really learn to use his body more and improve his punching, but he didn’t. Shogun may have trouble as well, but the x factor is Shogun’s Muay Thai and knees are still devastating. Mirko never really had the clinch/knee combinations at his disposal. Wanderlei Silva also uses his power and strength. He can move people around, use his knees, and punches like a Mach truck. Those kind of styles are much better suited for the Octagon than a straight kickboxing striker. With Shogun, Silva, and possibly Fedor coming over, I think we may see PRIDE fighters begin to gain some ground in the UFC. Don’t forget about Big Nog either. He has a really great shot at stopping Kongo’s upswing and possibly beating the legendary Randy Couture.
“Jackson is a Muay Thai guy with some good wrestling tactics, but he’s very strong. ”
Wha?
That’s worded like crap, too much typing on my part.