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Thursday trash talk: Not interested in UFC 75? You have a problem
By Zach Arnold | September 6, 2007
Adam Morgan is moving on from Fight Opinion to 411 Mania. I wish Adam a lot of luck and hope he does well with his new job.
Tonight, Luke Thomas is interviewed Jon Fitch on his radio show starting at 10 PM EST. Details here. The phone number to call in is 646-478-5091. I want at least five readers to call into the radio show tonight.
Cage Rage and Pro Elite partner up financially… well, if you mean Pro Elite buying out Cage Rage, that is. Plus, David Dinkins Jr. will oversee production of all boxing & MMA telecasts on Showtime.
Komikazee has a radio interview with Dan Henderson. Dr. J has a UFC 75 preview. So does Denny Burkholder over at CBS Sportsline. Setanta Sports has an event preview. Rampage was interviewed recently on Fight Network Radio. Jake Rossen tries to come up with reasons as to why there is little interest in the Rampage/Henderson UFC 75 fight this Saturday.
I can give you a laundry list of reasons why UFC 75 is struggling to generate energy with the American public.
- This is the start of football season. People are geared up to watch college football and the NFL. There has been little or no media talk whatsoever about UFC 75 on cable TV. Outside of specificly placed advertisements (like at the AOL Fanhouse or during the WEC telecast last night on Versus), there has been next-to-no advertising of the event at all. If I wasn’t spending hours a day focusing on MMA, I would have no clue (as a casual fan) that there was a UFC show happening this weekend.
- Very few American MMA fans know who Dan Henderson is. That statement may cause an uproar with hardcore fans, but ask yourself this question – does the average UFC mark know who Dan Henderson is? The answer is likely ‘no.’ Furthermore, Henderson really has never been marketed throughout this career as a main-eventer in UFC or PRIDE. Henderson’s biggest profile match was against Silva this past February in Vegas. However, in Japan, Henderson was never placed higher than the mid-card. If he did work main events (like he did at Bushido against Kazuo Misaki), those were often the B-level shows (in the eyes of fans). Henderson was never a mega star for PRIDE like he should have been, but that was not his fault. Outside of fighting Chuck Liddell, Rampage Jackson wasn’t known to the masses in America either. Until he gets a string of victories and has some new ‘file footage’ for UFC to market, he’s going to remain drawing at the same level he is now.
- People are not belt marks unless those belts are treated and protected well. I’ve heard this argument from both Jake Rossen and Luke Thomas that we should care about the PRIDE belt. Who the hell cares about that belt? PRIDE is out of business. It’s finished. The belt means nothing to the casual fan or to the hardcore fans. In an era where we’ve seen so many alphabet soup title belts in boxing, why should American fans care about the PRIDE title belt? In order for a belt to mean something, you have to protect it as a promoter. It would also help to protect the promotion that the belt represents, but PRIDE is dead as a doornail.
- MMA fans in America are not spoiled. Last night, there was a terrific WEC event on The Versus Network. With that stated, the over-expansion of events by Zuffa LLC (along with competition from other promoters) is not the fault of the fans, it’s the fault of the promoters. When you dilute your product to the point where you have a show every week or every other week, you’re putting stress on your fans to have to pay more money to watch PPVs or dedicate more of their free time to watch events on cable TV.
- UFC has done a piss-poor job in promoting the UFC 75 event to the casual American fan. Combine this with the fact that the event will air tape-delayed from London and you have the makings of an audience that is somewhat ambivalent to the show. Jake Rossen argued that American MMA fans should care about the PRIDE vs. UFC double titles match because history will be made. What history will be made? Dana White already said that the PRIDE title belt will be retired after the match. What PRIDE-related history does a casual fan know about the company? None! Of course, the great irony is that the most current history about PRIDE is the story about how they went extinct and the reasons behind it. I don’t expect Spike TV to feature a PRIDE: All Access show talking about the yakuza scandal any time soon, do you?
- What does PRIDE mean to the American MMA fan? Not even Dana White knows what it’s supposed to mean. One week he’s proclaiming that it’s Japan’s strongest MMA brand, the next week he’s telling Alex Marvez that it’s “tainted” and another week he’s spouting off how mismanaged of an organization PRIDE was. OK, fine. However, in order for unification matches to work, you have to be willing to promote the entity outside of your company just as strongly as the entity you own. In this case, you have to promote PRIDE as strongly as you promote UFC. Dana White has never been willing to do that. PRIDE is dead, buried, finished. He has publicly talked about and treated PRIDE for the last two years like Vince McMahon talked about WCW. In the case of both McMahon and White, they bought the assets of their defeated rivals and practically buried any history that came along with it.
Onto today’s headlines.
- Fight Report: McCullough KO’s Crunkilton at WEC 30
- The Houston Chronicle: McCullough slices through Crunkilton at WEC 30
- Dave Doyle: Chase Beebe, Rob McCullough wins highlight WEC 30
- Sportsnet (Canada): John Alessio gets it done versus Brito
- The Fairbanks Daily News-Miner (Alaska): North Pole’s Scott McAfee suffers loss in MMA event at WEC
- Fightlinker: One woman does not a division make
- Jordan Breen: A Smack in the Face
- The Arizona Republic: Fight girls – frenzied female fans punch up ultimate fighting’s popularity
- Gryphon: K-1 cannot allow Yoshihiro Akiyama to come back?
- Bloody Elbow: Terry Martin takes on the Chicago Machine
- MMA Weekly: Zac George talks Steele Cage title win
- The UNLV Rebel Yell (NV): IFO crowns new champions – Richard Steele’s promotion continues to usurp from UFC
- UFC Junkie: Michael Bisping discusses UFC 75
- WEC HP: Versus announces extension of partnership with WEC
- The Broward-Palm Beach New Times (FL): Mixed and Matched – see asses beaten at Warriors Collide II
- The Clitheroe Advertiser (UK): ‘Count’ out to settle score
- The Daily Star (UK): Docs in a Cage Rage
- The East London Advertiser (UK): Cage Rage – Brad Pickett lines up to be a real star
- The Gillette News Record (Wyoming): Injured Ringwars MMA competitor Josh Hungerford expected home later this week
- The Press-Register (Alabama): Randall “Kid” Yonker returns to ring for cage match
- The Sarasota Herald Tribune (FL): Sarasota MMA organization announces expansion
- The San Diego Union-Tribune: Getting his kicks – a versatile all-around fighter, KJ Noons wants to make his mark in boxing ring
- CBS Sportsline: Interview with UFC Lightweight Kenny Florian
- The Long Beach Press-Telegram: Rich Crunkilton finally gets message
Topics: Japan, Media, MMA, PRIDE, Pro Elite, UFC, UK, WEC, Zach Arnold | 60 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Hey now. Who said I was “moving on.” Just because I haven’t written anything here in over a month doesn’t mean I’m “moving on.” Unless you want me to move on. đ
“The [Pride] belt means nothing to the casual fan or to the hardcore fan”
I would have to strongly disagree with this statement, at least the hardcore fan part. As a hardcore, fan the Pride belt means alot to me. It certainly means more than the UFC belt. I know Pride is done, but the Pride belt still represents a major accomplishment. Much more so then the UFC belt. In the future, yes, the Pride belt will be meaningless, but as of now, both the Pride LHW and HW title belts represent more accomplishment against top opposition than the UFC belt. Period.
I’m not trying to take anything away from the accomplishment of owning a UFC belt, but to be perfectly honest, up until very very recently, few of the top fighters in the world were in the UFC.
That PRIDE belt does mean a lot to hardcore fans. Simply because of the PRIDE marks that treats PRIDE as a religon.
The biggest problem in UFC 75 not getting massive mainstream interest is that apart from UFC 71, no UFC events have been getting such pull in the media. Doing only 6 PPVs a year or running less events isn’t going to fix that. You can attribute that to a number of things: the biggest name in the sport being sparked in 2 minutes when all eyes were on them, ESPN potentially attempting to court UFC and then not bothering once they resigned with Spike, controversy throughout the summer, start of football, etc etc etc. But to pretend that the UFC demands mainstream coverage or that running WEC events dilutes the sport is madness.
Now I’ll await hearing how Paul Bosch would have promoted UFC and how it would have eclipsed everything and been on CBS already.
I should note that by âcontroversy throughout the summerâ, Iâm not referring to OMG STEROIDZ but the sport controversies in the major stick and ball sports in this country. Michael Vick and NBA refs on the take were way, way bigger stories to the general public than anything that MMA has ever produced in this hemisphere.
You’ve completed missed the argument regarding oversaturation of the MMA markets. When there is so much content out there right now, you’re asking the casual MMA fan to make some sacrifices in both their time and viewing habits. It is not a god-given birth-right to air a program on TV and expect millions of people to watch it.
He’s gone, my diabolical plan worked! Sprawl-n-brawl is MINE, all MINE! Muah-hah-hah-hah [continued evil laugh…]
Youâve completed missed the argument regarding oversaturation of the MMA markets. When there is so much content out there right now, youâre asking the casual MMA fan to make some sacrifices in both their time and viewing habits. It is not a god-given birth-right to air a program on TV and expect millions of people to watch it.
No, I get it entirely. This show is getting the same mainstream hype UFC 70 did (essentially none), which did what, a peak over 3.0 on its airing? If UFC 75 comes back with a 1.0 Fight Night type rating, then we can talk about it failing miserably and what not.
The question wasn’t whether or not the show would draw a strong rating, the question was why people aren’t so enthusiastic about the show.
Pizza Chef, you make it seem like there is something wrong with being a Pride “mark.”
I’ve never understood why a tru MMA fan would not be a Pride “mark” or, like you appear to be, be a Pride hater. Pride put on the highest level, most competitive MMA fights and tournaments that the world has ever seen. That is a fact. Now if you want to criticize me and others who express this truth, then that is your problem.
The question wasnât whether or not the show would draw a strong rating, the question was why people arenât so enthusiastic about the show.
They’re as enthusiastic for this show as they were the last 3-4 UFCs that preceeded it. The fact that WEC had a show last night isn’t going to burnout casual fans because casual fans don’t watch the WEC. I heard a lot of this same talk before UFC 70.
elsewhere…
Iâve never understood why a tru MMA fan would not be a Pride âmarkâ or, like you appear to be, be a Pride hater. Pride put on the highest level, most competitive MMA fights and tournaments that the world has ever seen. That is a fact. Now if you want to criticize me and others who express this truth, then that is your problem.
Maybe because they enjoy the sport rather than desperately attempting to find personal identity in being a fan of a particular promotion?
“Desperately trying to find personal identity in being a fan of a particular promotion”??
This doesnt even make any sense. That’s called being a fan. Moron.
D. Capitated. How do you know that fans are as enthusiastic for UFC 75 as they were for the past 3-4 events?? How exactly do you know this? Or are you just talking out your A$$?? I thought so.
D. Capitated needs to go back to sherdog. That guy is clearly a new, uneducated MMA fan.
The whole Dan Henderson and Rampage not being big names by now REALLY BOTHERS me. The fact that there’s little to no hype on the merging of titles irks me to a lesser extent as well.
Just last week you had Dana saying how the main reason for buy PRIDE was for the video library…but he NEVER fucking uses it. You want people to know who these guys are but you don’t do anything to promote them – why the hell haven’t they been doing Unleashed shows solely dedicated to these new guys, show full fights, highlights of fights, hell recycle some of the AWESOME video promos from PRIDE that 75% of the UFC audience hasn’t seen.
They are literally sitting on a wealth of materials that will cost them nothing (other than the initial investment) to use in order to really hype up the new talent, who could create massive buzz if they marketed them right…I’m literally confused – the UFC seems to have literally NO INTEREST in hyping or marketing guys that aren’t UFC homegrown.
I really don’t get it…people say that mainstream interest is ebbing b/c the top name guy got dusted – well I see that as an opportunity to start hyping up the new blood and making more stars. You could have made an absolute STAR out of Jackson over that – you’ve got Shogun, Silva…but they seem completely remissed to hurt the image of guys they already have. I guess on the flip side you have the Mirko-complex created by his stunning loss…who knows.
This doesnt even make any sense. Thatâs called being a fan. Moron.
….of a promotion. That’s all PRIDE was. It was a bunch of guys contracted to fight prototypically in Japan but sometimes in America. It never cracked 6 figures for number of buys in the states, and the number of non-title defenses that its champions had made the belts that weren’t the heavyweight title almost meaningless. By any legit look at it, the “linear” 205lb champion of PRIDE is not Dan Henderson. It is Mauricio Shogun Rua. If you want to look at reasons why this unification bout might not mean as much to some as it generally would under the circumstances, there’s a good start.
D. Capitated. How do you know that fans are as enthusiastic for UFC 75 as they were for the past 3-4 events?? How exactly do you know this? Or are you just talking out your A$$?? I thought so.
How do you know that they aren’t? Because someone on Sherdog told you so? Because its recieving minimal coverage from major media outlets? Gee, that last one is a shocker. Who would have guessed that an MMA bout that while historically important featured no superstars wouldn’t grab the attention of ESPN, CNN, SI, but be relegated to their webpages?
The whole Dan Henderson and Rampage not being big names by now REALLY BOTHERS me. The fact that thereâs little to no hype on the merging of titles irks me to a lesser extent as well.
Part of it has to do with the fact that Dana wasn’t able to make up his mind as to what was gonna happen with the belts until recently.
Just last week you had Dana saying how the main reason for buy PRIDE was for the video libraryâŚbut he NEVER fucking uses it. You want people to know who these guys are but you donât do anything to promote them – why the hell havenât they been doing Unleashed shows solely dedicated to these new guys, show full fights, highlights of fights, hell recycle some of the AWESOME video promos from PRIDE that 75% of the UFC audience hasnât seen.
Anyone here noticed that PRIDE still gets played on FSN? Has anyone stopped to think that, perhaps, in spite of the contracts of some of the PRIDE talent perhaps being nontransferrable, there could be a connection between these two things?
They are literally sitting on a wealth of materials that will cost them nothing (other than the initial investment) to use in order to really hype up the new talent, who could create massive buzz if they marketed them rightâŚIâm literally confused – the UFC seems to have literally NO INTEREST in hyping or marketing guys that arenât UFC homegrown.
Oh god…I know where this is leading….
I really donât get itâŚpeople say that mainstream interest is ebbing b/c the top name guy got dusted – well I see that as an opportunity to start hyping up the new blood and making more stars. You could have made an absolute STAR out of Jackson over that – youâve got Shogun, SilvaâŚbut they seem completely remissed to hurt the image of guys they already have. I guess on the flip side you have the Mirko-complex created by his stunning lossâŚwho knows.
Jackson beat Liddell. Okay, great. People aren’t going to rush to get behind Jackson until he beats more people and thus proves to them that he is a legit light heavyweight. Period. You can’t put on 5-6 minute video packages and substitute them for a 5-6 year winning streak. Sorry if that bursts some bubble in your mind, but its true.
Wanderlei has already recieved a bunch of hype on their last PPV. They haven’t had any other TV to present Wanderlei being around. They’re giving Shogun FORREST GRIFFIN as a sacrificial lamb. What more do you want?
Gaijin hits the nail on the head. This is not the fault of the fighters (Henderson or Jackson). UFC has the resources and materials to promote that fight properly and so far, it’s been rather underwhelming.
Gaijin hits the nail on the head. This is not the fault of the fighters (Henderson or Jackson). UFC has the resources and materials to promote that fight properly and so far, itâs been rather underwhelming.
You feel that a UFC All Access show would have turned the claimed tide of apathy? I’m sure the .5 rating it would have garnered would have made all the difference.
It would take more than one individual TV show to build up the proper hype.
Zach Arnold: Unwarranted comparison of MMA to pro wrestling. Yellow flag. 20 yard penalty. No first down.
It would take more than one individual TV show to build up the proper hype.
And, so, where are they going to get the exposure? They’ve gotten interview slots on ESPNNEWS and I believe ESPN2 for Quinton. Good Morning America isn’t callling. I doubt Oprah is either. They just had a big PPV 2 weeks ago where they had promos for it everywhere, and they’re undoubtedly running commercials for the show.
The problem is people like D. Capitated, who clearly know about Jackson and Henderson, but choose to overlook their accomplishments for one reason or another, and fail to be critical, at all, of the UFC promotion or its practices.
D. Capitated:
Why is anything what I said such a groaner?
Q1. How did Liddell, Franklin etc. start to gain a following from the mainstream fans?
A. By being pushed on TV, set up in interviews, having shows that were dedicated to showing their fights, highlights, interviews, training videos, having other fighters interviewed and hyping them.
Q2. Has this honestly been done with any of their new talent? Including Rampage?
A. NO.
How can you say that a guy with such a magnetic personality coming in and destroying someone that was built up as indestructible, not be made into an instantaneous star? This happens ALL the time…all it would have taken was to put a big push on for him right after all the mainstream attention that centred on the event. In the world of a 30 second sound byte attention span, you’re being ridiculous if you think that Rampage needs to go on a 10 fight win streak to become legitimate in the fans eyes.
Instead they went into damage control with Liddell and have been pushing the fuck out of Randy. They are more interested in going to the “old faithfuls”, than to make an effort to make bigger names.
And as for your Shogun argument…so what? Following your argument one win over popular but damaged goods like Griffin, will do nothing until Shogun wins 5-7 fights. My problem/gripe is that there is basically NO BUZZ going into the fight – this is where you need the excitement. They could have the FOTY but if no one is rabid to see it, you’re not creating more fans who didn’t tune in for the first time to see it and hopefully buy more.
They are eventually going to run into problems like the WWF/Boxing, where they depend on their stars from 10 years ago to draw the fans, never created new ones and now are really beginning to reap what they’ve sowed.
It’s not just that there’s an oversaturation of Zuffa product out there, its in the way the its presented. When the fighters on last nights WEC are referred to as “the best in the world,” then why should the UFC 75 card have any more meaning. If everyone in the UFC or WEC is world class at jiu-jitsu, wrestling, or kickboxing then how does that compel the casual fan to care more about Dan Henderson, Nog, or Cro Cop who they have barely heard of either?
By being pushed on TV, set up in interviews, having shows that were dedicated to showing their fights, highlights, interviews, training videos, having other fighters interviewed and hyping them.
They can’t just force TV shows to use guys. This isn’t the WWE, as much as you imagine it to be. Its an actual sport, and Chuck Liddell became the face of the organization by being a dominant champion. Wins and losses matter, and beating Tito (1), White, Couture(1), Horn, Couture(2), Babalu, and Tito (2) all by KO was vital. Training videos and all access shows don’t make up for actual results posted in the ring, particularly when those results are against the two biggest draws in your company other than yourself.
Has this honestly been done with any of their new talent? Including Rampage?
A. NO.
This is Rampage’s first defense. His third total fight in the UFC. Prior to beating Chuck, people questioned his heart and whether or not he was finished following the losses to Wanderlei and Shogun. He is not going to be a draw right off the bat, no matter how charismatic he is. He has to produce. He has to win. This is a real, actual, legit sport. They can’t have him do vignettes with strippers or something.
How can you say that a guy with such a magnetic personality coming in and destroying someone that was built up as indestructible, not be made into an instantaneous star? This happens ALL the time
Really? Name the major mainstream stars who made such impressions in combat sports. You mean guys like Iran Barkley and Buster Douglas? Yeah, those dudes were enormous superstars with great long term staying power.
âŚall it would have taken was to put a big push on for him right after all the mainstream attention that centred on the event. In the world of a 30 second sound byte attention span, youâre being ridiculous if you think that Rampage needs to go on a 10 fight win streak to become legitimate in the fans eyes.
Where are they going to get this attention? ESPN covered the fight and that was that. Everyone knew immediately afterwards who his next opponent was and when, too. They did it right there in the cage. Until Rampage produces and establishes himself in the public’s eyes, there’s nothing they can really do.
Instead they went into damage control with Liddell and have been pushing the fuck out of Randy. They are more interested in going to the âold faithfulsâ, than to make an effort to make bigger names.
That’s because Liddell is going to be a bigger star even after the loss than Rampage will be for beating him in the present. Future? Well, things could be different. Who knows? The UFC is probably thinking Liddell/Rampage II for early next year, and nothing but. You can make a reality show for Rampage and he’s not gonna be eclipsing Randy over one fight. Get real, man. Use comparisons to actual competitive sports.
And as for your Shogun argumentâŚso what? Following your argument one win over popular but damaged goods like Griffin, will do nothing until Shogun wins 5-7 fights.
Its not going to make him a megastar overnight, but its gonna do a lot more for him than a safe fight against, well, almost anyone else ever. Again, what can you do with Shogun? He can’t even speak english, and what he was most known for in PRIDE is illegal here in this country.
My problem/gripe is that there is basically NO BUZZ going into the fight – this is where you need the excitement. They could have the FOTY but if no one is rabid to see it, youâre not creating more fans who didnât tune in for the first time to see it and hopefully buy more.
Says who? The only talk here is among hardcore fans, and hardcore fans have shown no capability to understand what the casual fanbase thinks. People here were assuming WEC would get 0.7s and 1.1s for their debut and that a .37 was awful. Instead, they just got the green light for more live events and Wrekcage programs.
They are eventually going to run into problems like the WWF/Boxing, where they depend on their stars from 10 years ago to draw the fans, never created new ones and now are really beginning to reap what theyâve sowed.
I would expect them to have had far more problems….had this been a PPV. Instead they recognize the fact that neither one is a money draw and put it on free TV.
Itâs not just that thereâs an oversaturation of Zuffa product out there, its in the way the its presented. When the fighters on last nights WEC are referred to as âthe best in the world,â then why should the UFC 75 card have any more meaning. If everyone in the UFC or WEC is world class at jiu-jitsu, wrestling, or kickboxing then how does that compel the casual fan to care more about Dan Henderson, Nog, or Cro Cop who they have barely heard of either?
What are they supposed to say? “They’re pretty good fighters. Club level guys, maybe some better, some not as good”? Do you want them to not bring in Nog, Cro Cop, Dan Henderson, Rampage, and so on because it will “dilute their talent base”? You can’t have the best fight each other and have the best not be signed intentionally to protect others. You can’t build guys as the best unless they really are since they have to physically prove it in the ring.
(besides, who the hell is watching WEC? 5 times as many people watch TUF on a weekly basis as do a WEC event. )
Why are people surprised that a bout that is being held in a foreign country between two relatively unknown fighters (in the US) which is being broadcasted on a tape delay basis is not garnering the same level of enthusiasm as a bout held in the USA between two POPULAR FIGHTERS that is being broadcast LIVE?
For the hardcore MMA fan, there is an oversaturation of the marketplace with the myriad of MMA events being held but for the casual mainstream fans there is only one promotion that matters and that is the UFC. All of the other promotions put on by rinky-dinky organizations do not even register in the eyes of the american public.
“The UFC is probably thinking Liddell/Rampage II for early next year, and nothing but. ”
LOL @ Liddell/Rampage “II” and you
“What are they supposed to say? âTheyâre pretty good fighters. Club level guys, maybe some better, some not as goodâ? ”
Just call it like it is. “Great up and comers” etc etc. Nothing wrong with that. If every guy is “world class” then why give a fuck about the guys who actually are “world class?”
I agree with those saying that the UFC could be doing a better job, but it’s not easy creating new stars. The guys that come first always have it easier.
For the UFC, there have been two particular waves of fighters:
* Mid 90’s (Royce, Shamrock, etc) for the first batch of UFC stars
* Mid 00’s (Couture, Liddell, Franklin, etc) for the post-TUF UFC
This particular phenomenon also explains why fighters from TUF 1 seem to be much more popular than later seasons of TUF.
Also, even though PRIDE was ostensibly better at creating larger than life personae for their fighters, even they relied on old UFC standbys like Shamrock, Frye, Royce to help them sell tickets.
I think part of the problem is due to, yes, a lack of marketing focus on the part of Zuffa, but there are other factors to consider. Upsets and belt turnover can be a nice surprise, but I think casual fans are more thrown off by this than hardcore fans. Casual fans — and even hardcore fans to an extent — need an emotional lightning rod and it helps when that fighter continues to win. Seeing a virtual unknown in Jackson KO Liddell is exciting for some, but demoralizing for many casual fans who took to heart that Liddell was the baddest man on the planet. ESPN says, “Meh” and moves on to Joey Chestnut eating 200 hot dogs for entertainment in between MLB games and NFL training camp.
LOL @ Liddell/Rampage âIIâ and you
You did get me here.
Just call it like it is. âGreat up and comersâ etc etc. Nothing wrong with that. If every guy is âworld classâ then why give a fuck about the guys who actually are âworld class?â
The idea is to hype them up. Saying “up and comers” isn’t the way to do that. I mean, seriously, is Paulo Filho an “up and comer” to you?
Upsets and belt turnover can be a nice surprise, but I think casual fans are more thrown off by this than hardcore fans. Casual fans â and even hardcore fans to an extent â need an emotional lightning rod and it helps when that fighter continues to win. Seeing a virtual unknown in Jackson KO Liddell is exciting for some, but demoralizing for many casual fans who took to heart that Liddell was the baddest man on the planet. ESPN says, âMehâ and moves on to Joey Chestnut eating 200 hot dogs for entertainment in between MLB games and NFL training camp.
Ding ding ding ding! Just because one guy wins who isn’t very popular and the guy who lost was doesn’t mean that the guy who wins gains his fanbase. That’s just a ridiculous assumption.
Meh. đ
I’m hyped. This is a good card that won’t cost me anything to watch.
Since it will be on Spike, it’s practically guaranteed to have more views than any of the PPVs, and it will do a lot to increase the name brands of both Rampage and Henderson in the US, not to mention the other fighters on the card.
UFC 75 isn’t a product that needs to be hyped, it’s the door buster that hypes UFC’s paid product down the road.
“I mean, seriously, is Paulo Filho an âup and comerâ to you?”
Yes
Damn, spam filter must have my “45 Huddle” tags that I put around that “Yes”.
Buster Douglas is a good comparison?
No charisma, no past big accomplishments or following and a guy who was just fodder for the Tyson train.
Rampage: past win over said most popular fighter and big draw, undoubtedly an easy to sell “character” and good on the mic (ala Tito).
And your argument about performance – this is where the PRIDE library is key. They have the video evidence to back up that this guy is for real…he beat Liddell already – pull that fight out and show it on free tv; he destroyed Arona, Igor, a few Japanese cans – show that.
Viola – a guy with 2 fights in the UFC and a dozen fights in PRIDE to show people. You’re saying the casual fan wouldnt have been interested in who this guy was before and/or after he fough Liddell again? And how did they capitalize on it…..oh right, by doing NOTHING.
As for overnight celebrity – don’t just hold your comparisons to “combat sport”, theres literally hundreds of examples in sport of a “relative unknown” who had their “defining moment” and propelled themselves to superstar.
How can Rampage ever be compared to Randy???
Randy actually gets constant backing and hype of the UFC…Rampage gets none. Get real man, its all right there – plain and simple.
As I’ve seen suggested by others: why wasnt there a show with Rampage and Hendo as coaches, leading up to their fight. There you go – instantly you now have two guys who had TONS of exposure to the TUF set, potential to pull in more fans and the ability to nurture a legit feud.
Instead we have Hughes (again) and Serra (again).
A few PRIDE FC dvds have been released since the purchase, with more on the way. The video library is being used. Here are releases that happened AFTER the purchase.
PRIDE FC Shockwave 2003
(Release Date: May 22, 2007)
PRIDE FC Bushido 9
(Release Date: May 22, 2007)
PRIDE FC Fighting Legacy Volume 4
(Release Date: June 5, 2007)
PRIDE FC 2003 Grand Prix (4 DVD)
(Release Date: September 2007)
About time they re-released this Grand Prix. It looks like it is going to be packaged in a similar fashion to the 2000 Grand Prix set.
PRIDE FC Fighting Legacy Volume 5
(Release Date: Mid October 2007)
Just like the previous Legacy sets. This one has PRIDE 24 through PRIDE 28.
There aren’t that many events left that haven’t been released in the United States. I’m sure they will be released at some point in time.
Buster Douglas is a good comparison?
No charisma, no past big accomplishments or following and a guy who was just fodder for the Tyson train.
Rampage: past win over said most popular fighter and big draw, undoubtedly an easy to sell âcharacterâ and good on the mic (ala Tito).
“Big draw”? To who? Where? He didn’t draw in America, otherwise the company who’s show he co-headlined wouldn’t have gone under. He’s potentially all those things, but he hasn’t proven anything yet. There’s zero guarantee he beats Henderson in a couple days, much less that he beats Shogun or Wanderlei should they have rematches with him. Liddell was a legit big draw in the US. One that we can legitimately quantify. Rampage was not a draw on US shores ever. There are no figures that say otherwise.
And your argument about performance – this is where the PRIDE library is key. They have the video evidence to back up that this guy is for realâŚhe beat Liddell already – pull that fight out and show it on free tv; he destroyed Arona, Igor, a few Japanese cans – show that.
He didn’t destroy Arona…he was in a close fight where he pulled victory suddenly and almost out of nowhere. Igor Vovchanchin is a total nobody in America.
Viola – a guy with 2 fights in the UFC and a dozen fights in PRIDE to show people. Youâre saying the casual fan wouldnt have been interested in who this guy was before and/or after he fough Liddell again? And how did they capitalize on itâŚ..oh right, by doing NOTHING.
Do you think that enough people are gonna watch old fights of him in PRIDE? They already had an entire Rampage tribute show on FSN of his PRIDE bouts following the Liddell win. Do you think moving it to Spike would make a huge difference?
As for overnight celebrity – donât just hold your comparisons to âcombat sportâ, theres literally hundreds of examples in sport of a ârelative unknownâ who had their âdefining momentâ and propelled themselves to superstar.
Like who? Whom would be comparable to Jackson? There are guys who were sudden stars and had their 15 minutes, but Jackson is being asked to carry a company for more than that.
How can Rampage ever be compared to Randy???
Randy actually gets constant backing and hype of the UFCâŚRampage gets none. Get real man, its all right there – plain and simple.
Why do you think that is? Do really think that showing old PRIDE bouts of Rampage on Spike would propel Quinton Jackson, following merely 2 wins in the UFC, into being a draw as large as or at least comparable to Liddell or Couture? I don’t think you understand people. Or promotion.
As Iâve seen suggested by others: why wasnt there a show with Rampage and Hendo as coaches, leading up to their fight. There you go – instantly you now have two guys who had TONS of exposure to the TUF set, potential to pull in more fans and the ability to nurture a legit feud.
And? How many guys are supposed to have a season of TUF? Everyone ever? What about Shogun and Wanderlei? Should they sit them down until next June when season 7 wraps up?
Instead we have Hughes (again) and Serra (again).
Yeah, because people really are sick of Hughes. That guy sure has been anathema to ticket sales, right?
Well Rampage and Liddell duke it out best out of seven??? If Rampage were to win a re-re match what would Dana do with Liddell?
“âBig drawâ? To who? Where? He didnât draw in America, otherwise the company whoâs show he co-headlined wouldnât have gone under. Heâs potentially all those things, but he hasnât proven anything yet. Thereâs zero guarantee he beats Henderson in a couple days, much less that he beats Shogun or Wanderlei should they have rematches with him. Liddell was a legit big draw in the US. One that we can legitimately quantify. Rampage was not a draw on US shores ever. There are no figures that say otherwise.”
d capitated is so absolutely right on in this discussion.
There has been so much whining and crying about Rampage and why he is being treated so unfairly, why he isn’t being made into an automatic overnight superstar by the UFC and the rest of the media. Let me clue you guys in on a few things. First, you don’t make superstars. The fans decide that. The promotion and the media can only take someone so far. The UFC throws a bunch of faces and fights out there hoping one catches on and then they capitalzxe on the popularity. Chuck’s popularity enabled him to be promoted as a superstar. Same with Randy. Rampage has had two fights and neither were particularly memorable.
Second, Rampage may be some charismatic, fascinating personality to some of you, but I, and probabl;y many others, find his whole act borish. Some people actually appreciate a well spoken, humble fighter who gives interesting interviews and says insightful things. Yes, there is the demographic that likes howling, trash talking and tasteless jokes, but despite the stereotype of the typical MMA fan, many UFC fans aren’t in that group.
1.) Hey – I totally see your side, in that Rampage is a relative unknown.
But to that extent he is STILL the champ, he still beat Liddell x2, his persona/character/charisma is the exact type that can sell. All I’m saying is that he hasn’t been given the opportunity to do ANYTHING with the opportunity.
Under your proposal the UFC should just sit on their hands until they can somehow get the belt back on Liddell b/c he’s the only draw they have and it would be stupid for them to spend any time trying to build up other guys (shades of Franklin at 185).
2.) Quick aside: Yes, his fight with Arona is competitive. But be honest – what is this fight known for (and most fights in general)? The vicious and nasty ending…give your head a shake.
3.) Comparing the FSN show to what can be done if properly promoted on Spike is fucking ridiculous.
– What is the reach of FSN?
– Do UFC fans (not mma fans) even know that PRIDE is on FSN (NO and has UFC advertised this? NO)?
– How awful is the editing and presentation of the FSN shows?
The UFC knows how to promote fighters when they really want to – and they just aren’t. Plain and simple.
4.) NO one said EVERYONE needs a TUF show smart guy. You think that maybe, just maybe it might have been a pretty good idea for when you have two champions of the two biggest organizations in MMA?
Ya me neither.
No one said anyone was tired of Hughes…but he’s already a “star” (who’s PPV sales last I checked were never that great and were best when he fought Royce and GSP, probably each of whom were more popular than he)…why would you waste the potential exposure on someone who has already gotten it?
Rollo:
“Rampage has had two fights and neither were particularly memorable.
Second, Rampage may be some charismatic, fascinating personality to some of you, but I, and probabl;y many others, find his whole act borish. Some people actually appreciate a well spoken, humble fighter who gives interesting interviews and says insightful things. Yes, there is the demographic that likes howling, trash talking and tasteless jokes, but despite the stereotype of the typical MMA fan, many UFC fans arenât in that group.”
1.) I think it’s pretty silly to say that KO’ing Chuck “the Invincible” on the biggest UFC PPV yet is “not particularly memorable”.
2.) Last I checked: Tito Ortiz seems to be an “ok” draw; imagine someone who’s a FAR superior fighter than he and who’s equally as charismatic in the same way…
The thought that Randy and Chuck are stars b/c the “made it on their own” and “because they were in the eyes of the fan” is completely ridiculous.
Yes, there is a combination of factors involved in all of this…but the arguments being made on their behalf are silly. They were the products of the UFC’s BIGGEST MARKETING CAMPAGAIN ever. Obviously they have the skills to back it up, but they were also afforded the ability to be recognizable to the fans.
Hell – Randy lost the fight, yet still remained popular. You think that might have sooomething to do with the fact that he was able to gain a certain imprint with the fans?
No its b/c he got knocked out….right.
“I mean, seriously, is Paulo Filho an âup and comerâ to you?”
No…he’s a top 3 fighter in his division…he and Uriah Faber are also the exceptions to the rule. That’s pretty much my point though…how do you say about the card last night “these are the best fighters in the world?” What leeway does that give you when referring to Paulo Filho. “This guy REALLY IS one of the best fighters in the world.”
Just let the fights sell themselves. The cream will rise to the top. If the Arizona Cardinals are playing the Oakland Raiders, you don’t have the announcers keep saying “these are the best football players in the world” over and over. Sure they’re good, they’re in the NFL, but cmon. It’s these inconsistencies that still keep MMA semi-spectacle and just as close to pro wrestling from a marketing standpoint instead of straight sport.
Also, let’s not forget the fact that Liddell and Couture’s exposure and popularity can be directly attributed to starting/taking off with the TUF show (as well as Tito Ortiz’s involvement with both).
What they did after that helped it to grow and cement it, but the fact is that they were exposed to the fans, built up and given the chance b/c they were promoted and THEN they were also given the chance to back it up in the ring.
“”1.) I think itâs pretty silly to say that KOâing Chuck âthe Invincibleâ on the biggest UFC PPV yet is ânot particularly memorableâ.
It was one 40 second fight. It wasn’t a classic of MMA.
2.) Last I checked: Tito Ortiz seems to be an âokâ draw; imagine someone whoâs a FAR superior fighter than he and whoâs equally as charismatic in the same way⌔
First, they aren’t the same personality. Second, people haven’t seen Rampage fight enough to think he is so far superior to anyone. Third, equally charismatic in your eyes maybe, but it seems so far, many don’t agree. Tito actually says a few intelligent things once in a while, even if he might be misguided. Fact is, Tito has been around since the early days in the UFC. He has built a reputation and a fan base through fueds, title fights, and his own personality. Rampage hasn’t done a fraction of that in the US, and I would argue he hasn’t done what Tito has done in his career, in and out of the ring, in any country.
If the UFC has the magical power to make stars out of anyone, why haven’t they used this strange power more often? Because they don’t have it. The fans ultimately decide who they will cheer for, who they will boo, and who they will ignore. Rampage has been on ESPN, magazines, and UFC promo shows. He was given a title shot after one lackluster performance against a perennial UFC loser. Maybe its because many people don’t like him or like others more. Should we hold a gun to the heads of the fans and make them cheer for Jackson and laugh at his moronic jokes?
No hype machine in the world could have made Randy or Chuck into what they are now without the personalities they have. Those personalities appeal to large numbers of fans. That may or may not include you, but the world isn’t revolving around you or any one person. For a fighter’s popularity to withstand one or two KO losses is a testament to that fighter’s innate appeal first, and the marketing machine second.
I presumed the reason the UFC took the pedal off the press machine for UFC 75 is b/c it’s not a PPV in the states, which means the economic equation changes. That is, maybe spending money and resources on PR initiatives and ad buys has a low (short term) ROI when there’s no US PPV revenue for the event? I’m not asserting that’s the case, because I don’t know the numbers, but just throwing it out there so the more knowledgeable folks can chew on it.
Fan Futbol
Hyping an event costs money, and unless it’s the press that does it for you for free, hyping it has to make sense. Since it’s football season, the press got other…uh, pressing matters to attend to.
Besides, you can only spend so much money on something that is not going to bring in much revenues. You spend money to hype an event that potentially brings in 20-30 million in PPV buys, not an event that is likely to only break even. This is going to be on free TV which means it is slightly above a UFC Fight Night in revenue streams but with a much higher production/salary cost.
The UFC is hoping that enough casual fans tune in to this “free” show, gets hyped for the participants, and eventually purchase a PPV in the future. UFC 75, in effect, is the hype for a future PPV for the winner of CroCop/Congo VS Couture, or Henderson/Rampage VS Liddell/Shogun.
UFC knows their marketing. That’s why they’re around and Pride is not.
“UFC knows their marketing. Thatâs why theyâre around and Pride is not.”
Ummm…not quite.
PRIDE did not fold because of bad marketing in Japan. Bad marketing in America? Yes. Bad marketing in Japan? No.
And I’m not talking about hyping Rampage vs. Henderson at UFC 75. My argument was “they” should be hyped up already by now. It’s a different beast to hype a single fight or one off; far different to build up not only the reps but the familiarity (and interest) of certain fighters in the eyes of the casual mma (re: mainstream UFC fan).
But to that extent he is STILL the champ, he still beat Liddell x2, his persona/character/charisma is the exact type that can sell. All Iâm saying is that he hasnât been given the opportunity to do ANYTHING with the opportunity.
You know how many people saw the first Liddell/Rampage fight? About 25,000. Tops.
The UFC doesn’t control which advertisers pick which fighters. The advertisers do. To them, Rampage is some guy who’s won a single fight of note on these shores, and really, for the audience they’re playing to, that’s absolutely true. And unless the advertisers choose to rush behind Rampage, there’s no reason for TV shows to pick him up for guest spots or whatever. That’s that. End of discussion. You can imagine that Dana White can just push him to the moon like he’s a pro wrestler, but he can’t. He can give Rampage big fights and hope he performs better than he did at the end of his PRIDE tenure, where he had huge trouble with Ninja and was KOed by Silva and Shogun.
Under your proposal the UFC should just sit on their hands until they can somehow get the belt back on Liddell b/c heâs the only draw they have and it would be stupid for them to spend any time trying to build up other guys (shades of Franklin at 185).
That’s not true. Not even remotely. Making such an assumption implies that you have a personal feeling about this (likely that Dana hates Rampage and all PRIDE refugees) and are not open to reason. Fine. State that.
2.) Quick aside: Yes, his fight with Arona is competitive. But be honest – what is this fight known for (and most fights in general)? The vicious and nasty endingâŚgive your head a shake.
So? Its a great sudden ending, but showing Rampage almost get caught in a bunch of submissions before getting off a power bomb and winning by Couturing his opponent on a TV show 350,000 people will watch is not going to make him Chuck Liddell. Either you understand that or you don’t. You’re in the latter category.
3.) Comparing the FSN show to what can be done if properly promoted on Spike is fucking ridiculous.
What are they going to do differently? Somehow transport the viewer back in time to it occurring live?
– What is the reach of FSN?
Pretty wide. Every cable system has to have it or they risk losing the ability to have Fox network and the NFL. Do some research.
– Do UFC fans (not mma fans) even know that PRIDE is on FSN (NO and has UFC advertised this? NO)?
How often does Spike TV want the UFC to advertise programming on other non-affiliated networks? Probably never, which is why WEC never gets more than a cursory mention. Ever notice that?
– How awful is the editing and presentation of the FSN shows?
So Rampage would be more popular if they showed him stepping on a ZERO-ONE wrestler’s head if only Joe Rogan tells you about it first?
4.) NO one said EVERYONE needs a TUF show smart guy. You think that maybe, just maybe it might have been a pretty good idea for when you have two champions of the two biggest organizations in MMA?
As I said earlier, no one cares about PRIDE in the US and Matt Hughes is a big name and big draw, one that is verifiable. They need week to week ratings. Matt Hughes and Matt Serra hating each other is exactly the format that works best for TUF for ratings, and let’s be realistic, either Hughes or Serra talks way better trash than Dan Henderson.
No one said anyone was tired of HughesâŚbut heâs already a âstarâ (whoâs PPV sales last I checked were never that great and were best when he fought Royce and GSP, probably each of whom were more popular than he)âŚwhy would you waste the potential exposure on someone who has already gotten it?
Because maybe the network that televises UFC and makes money off the ad revenue from their programming wants a recognizable talent on the show? One that’s guaranteed to draw viewers? I assume you considered this as a possibility, right?
Rollo:
âRampage has had two fights and neither were particularly memorable.
Second, Rampage may be some charismatic, fascinating personality to some of you, but I, and probabl;y many others, find his whole act borish. Some people actually appreciate a well spoken, humble fighter who gives interesting interviews and says insightful things. Yes, there is the demographic that likes howling, trash talking and tasteless jokes, but despite the stereotype of the typical MMA fan, many UFC fans arenât in that group.â
1.) I think itâs pretty silly to say that KOâing Chuck âthe Invincibleâ on the biggest UFC PPV yet is ânot particularly memorableâ.
2.) Last I checked: Tito Ortiz seems to be an âokâ draw; imagine someone whoâs a FAR superior fighter than he and whoâs equally as charismatic in the same wayâŚ
– The Rampage/Arona fight was DEFINITELY competitive. In fact, Arona KO’d or nearly KO’d Jackson with an upkick. The ref didn’t jump in and Arona didn’t finish the fight.
– FSN is in a lot of homes, but their programming is never on at the same time slots, and most FSN networks are regional (correct me if I’m wrong.) For instance, if something airs here in San Diego, it might not also be playing on the FSN in Seattle.
An example: I taped every IFL episode when it came out, watched them and enjoyed them. Last years finals, I couldn’t figure out when it was on, missed it, and could never find a replay. The whole network seems like a crap shoot. Plus, both the IFL & Pride broadcasts have had edited fights since day one. For me, that’s bogus and makes me not care to watch as much.