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UFC 81 (2/2 Las Vegas)
By Zach Arnold | February 2, 2008
Event results: MMA Weekly | Sherdog | The Fight Network | MMA Junkie | Bloody Elbow | Total MMA | Observer
According to this report, Steve Austin, The Undertaker, and JBL are at the building.
Somewhere in the world, Antonio Inoki is crying about Brock Lesnar’s loss.
And now we’re going to get Nogueira vs. Werdum for the heavyweight title soon.
Post-mortems from the press:
- Los Angeles Times: Lesnar doesn’t last one round in UFC bout
- The Canadian Press: Lesnar only lasted 90 seconds in his UFC debut
- The Washington Post: Mir capitalizes on early error by Lesnar in UFC 81
- The Associated Press: Mir spoils Lesnar’s UFC debut
- Steve Cofield: Reality bites - Mir submits Lesnar at UFC 81
- Steve Sievert: Mir exposes Lesnar at UFC 81
- MMA Opinion: Lesnar’s UFC debut falls short during UFC 81
- Any Given Saturday: UFC 81 post-show audio recap with Luke Thomas & Jeff Hamlin
- Oliver Copp: UFC 81 post-fight press conference audio clips
- Dave Meltzer: Brock Lesnar shows superstar potential in loss
Plus, an update on Andrei Arlovski.
Topics: MMA, Media, UFC, WWE, Zach Arnold | | Permalink | Trackback | Share This
Unlike rumors, Couture is allowed to corned Tyson Griffin. Yet, the UFC cameras took a major close-up of Griffin, so nobody at home had a clue, unless they recognized the voice….
I assume if Marquardt beats Horn, that we will see a Marquardt vs. Almeida II. Which would be a very good fight. And the winner might not get the next title shot, but would put himself in line for one. Likely behind Yushin Okami….
Frank Mir answered the CALL OF DUTY, and so should you.
PLAY CALL OF DUTY 4.
Nice segue.
If Nogueira has one thing, it’s limitless amounts of heart.
And the fact that you can’t count him out because he can sub you even while getting punched in the face.
Big Nog pulls it out again.!!!!!!!!!
Awwww - too bad eh cyphron another “overrated” PRIDE fighter wins.
Which just goes to show that it’s mainly the fighters need time to make an adjustment to fighting in the cage and under different rules than being overrated.
LOL at the Inoki line.
At least he still has Barnett…
Unbelievable fight for Nogueira. He got wrecked for the first round, and lost the second round. The guy has so much heart.
This was just another one of Nog’s fights where he absorbs everything his “monster” opponent throws at him and then pulls out the spectacular victory from the jaws of defeat.
Maybe Fedor’s legacy isn’t so overrated as some of you people would like to let on…
I love big nog. This was a good measuring stick. This puts fedor’s legacy on lockdown.
Noguiera is the man! If you want to see this man’s “heart” in action, watch his fight against Bob Sapp years ago. Now THAT is coming back from an absolute ass-whooping. I remember watching that fight years ago, and I though Sapp was gonna put Minotauro in a coma, then Minotauro comes back with a submission, Sapp taps, the end. I couldn’t believe it.
So, did UFC advertise TNA Against All Odds? I bet not.
I assume Nogueira is the #2 guy still in the world, above Couture… with Sylvia being #4….
I wonder if the UFC will drop the idea of a Nog-Werdum rematch, that likely no one in the US wants to see and go with Nog-Mir instead.
Given all the hype that was thrown into Lesnar I think this win gave Mir a pretty big rub - I guess we’ll have to wait and see what the ppv buys are for tonight’s show.
Awesome night for Nogueira! Excellent fight, and an excellent finish.
And best of all, I have some great quotes that I’m going to keep reading over and over…
IceMuncher
“I also happen to have $100 on Sylvia at +170. I only bet when the big favorite (imo) is a decent underdog according to the bookies. Tim’s style is just too much for Nog. I think he has the advantage standing, and I don’t think Nog’s TDs are good enough to take it the ground.”
Aaron Crossen
“Sylvia by decision. Sylvia’s ground game is – and I hate to say it – very good. Plenty good enough to neutralize most of Nogueira’s straight armbars or lazy kimura attempts”
cyphron
“In either case, we shouldn’t assume any top ranked fighters from Japan will make a big splash when they come over.”
And my personal favorite:
D. Capitated
“Noguiera being the favorite in spite of possessing none of the skills needed to beat Big Dim is proof that PRIDE bias is far from dead.”
So the lazy, overrated PRIDE fighter with no skills was apparently good enough to beat Captain NyQuil, Tim Sylvia.
Vive la PRIDE bias!
That was a beautiful reply.
“Frank Mir answered the CALL OF DUTY, and so should you.
PLAY CALL OF DUTY 4.
Nice segue.”
That was classic.
Honestly, who doesn’t love Goldberg? He’s like that goofy but lovable teacher we all had in school. He’ll sit up there in front of the class and spend 45 minutes talking about stuff he honestly has no clue about and often gets flat-out wrong, all the while making corny jokes and chuckling. Sure, the “cool” kids in the back may snicker and complain, but that guy was freaking awesome.
The UFC losing Goldie would be a travesty. You’ll all see what I mean if he’s ever sick and can’t make a broadcast.
You can usually tell when the “desired result” does not take place because the hyperbole gets ratcheted up to “insane.” In this case, within minutes of Lesnar tapping, Mike Goldberg said said that Lesnar lost his UFC debut to “one of the best ever” (and this was not one of the times that he said “one of the best submission heavyweights ever,” it was just plain “one of the best ever”). Then, during the show-ending video package, Goldberg actually said that both Mir and Lesnar showed tonight why they are both worthy of being called two of the best heavyweights in the world.
IceMuncher
“I also happen to have $100 on Sylvia at +170. I only bet when the big favorite (imo) is a decent underdog according to the bookies. Tim’s style is just too much for Nog. I think he has the advantage standing, and I don’t think Nog’s TDs are good enough to take it the ground.”
Dude, where was I wrong in that analysis? Sylvia absolutely worked him standing and Nog’s TD’s were horrendous. I feel more vindicated than humbled. At +170, I’m sure you would have been more than willing to buy my ticket off me after that 2nd round was over.
It’s a fight, nothing is set in stone. If I was foolish enough to think Sylvia was 100% going to win I’d bet my house instead of $100.
I don’t really see anything wrong with the way Ice came to his conclusion - he was pretty much right on all accounts.
I think where he erred was in discounting Nog’s uncanny ability to absorb a beating and take advantage of a single opportunity that comes his way. His finishing ability when presented with that one chance is next to none.
I wanted to barf at all the love they were giving to Lesnar, clearly they were banking on him winning. If I had to listen to Rogan blather on about how “athletic Lesnar is”, “his hands are the size of canned hams”, “his head is like a toaster oven” blah blah….come on man - quite sounding like a wrestling commentator. And Goldberg sounded like a kid in a candy store everytime he saw a pro wrestler in the crowd - wtf?
Referring to “cautious” or “boring” MMA fighting by using the word “humping”: It’s not just for drunken fans in the audience anymore!
“”He was trying to finish and he came out and wasn’t just trying to fence hump for five rounds,” White said.”
from a Yahoo Sports story
“IceMuncher
“I also happen to have $100 on Sylvia at +170. I only bet when the big favorite (imo) is a decent underdog according to the bookies. Tim’s style is just too much for Nog. I think he has the advantage standing, and I don’t think Nog’s TDs are good enough to take it the ground.”
Dude, where was I wrong in that analysis? Sylvia absolutely worked him standing and Nog’s TD’s were horrendous. I feel more vindicated than humbled. At +170, I’m sure you would have been more than willing to buy my ticket off me after that 2nd round was over.
It’s a fight, nothing is set in stone. If I was foolish enough to think Sylvia was 100% going to win I’d bet my house instead of $100.”
Nice back peddling LOL. A win is a win dumb nut. 1)“Tim’s style is just too much for Nog. I think he has the advantage standing,” Half right here. He did have an advantage standing. WRONG on its was too much for NOG cuz obviously Tim couldn’t knock his ass out quick enough.
2)“and I don’t think Nog’s TDs are good enough to take it the ground.” WRONG here also… cuz if we were watching the same fight NOG took his ass down quick , got side control, swept him, and choked TIM out in less than a minute.
Nice try on the spin LOL
I don’t think IM was that far off by saying Tim’s stand up was too much for Nog. Tim battered him on the feet and it was clear to everyone including Nog, that the only way he was going to win was on the ground.
Also he didn’t score a take down, he pulled guard and then swept Tim.
That was an absurd penalty on Brock by Mazagatti, one accidental blow to the back of the head caused by Mir turning his head away and he took away a point, reset them, and gave Mir time to recover. Yet earlier in the night, in the Tyson Griffin fight he also reffed, there were many blows to the back of the head and all he did was give warnings. I honestly think Brock would’ve stopped Mir if they hadn’t been reset.
Noguiera did a great job playing punching bag for 13 minutes and nearly getting stopped en route to win. Hey, hats off to him. Its not the first time he’s won in this manner but a win is a win. It counts, and congrats to him.
I laughed far more when I saw Mir getting ready to scissor the leg and Lesnar had no idea it was coming. That was karmic for the UFC.
Sylvia’s sub-defence is terrible. He basically left his arm out there for Nog to snatch at will and when that didn’t work he rolled right into a guillotine.
again Tim’s stand up was not “to much for Nog.” In my opinion, if it was Nog would have lost. Nog would not have found a way to close the distance and put the fight to the ground. Whats even more humiliating is that with Tims reach advantage, and Tim tagging Nogs head,… flooring him a couple times he could not finish the fight. Nogs experience showed last night. I don’t give a rats ass how anybody spins it. If one fighter is knocking the shit out of another but can’t finish the fight and his opponent ends up winning from a technical submission (TD/Pull in to guard,side control,sweep,guillotine)… its called skill and the other fighters punching power and striking ability didn’t do shit in the fight cuz at the end of it all he lost. Now it would be different if Nog started swing haymakers in desperation and Tim’s head just happen to be in the way… in that case i would call that a lucky win.
And f hypotheticals like guys where shouting when I watching the fight.. “if the fight stayed on its feet Tim would have won” If it went more rounds Tim would have won” “one more good flurry from tim and Nog would have been out”
We don’t live in a world of what ifs.
Can you tell i don’t really like Tim LOL. Its hard for me to execpt him as a heavywieght bad ass if he has never left the US to fight others in the world. Sorry if i look at MMA as a World Sport instead of just the UFC.
The PRIDE haters got their just desserts tonight. Big Nog, Rampage and Anderson Silva, all champions! And then Mir proved all the doubters wrong. Still, Brock put on a great performance for a newb. His Ground n Pound is absolutely vicious. He’s a big asset to a heavyweight division that’s badly in need of depth. Brock has a lot of potential going for him.
I think their one problem lies in what to do with Brock at this point. Do they feed him some lesser lights to build him up and allow him to work out the kinks? Or do they keep putting him in against the big names (i.e. Sylvia) and do the whole trial by fire?
I fucking hate MMA fans.
Instead of “Holy shit, we just saw Big Tim take on Big Nog… something we thought we’d NEVER see 2 years ago” we get “Eat a dick, TUF noob, Ultimate Faggot ChampionSHIT got pw3nd!”
Whatever.
Last night TWICE vindicated the classlic MMA narrative - martial artist uses technique to overcome stronger, larger opponent. It’s amazing that 15 years after Royce Gracie conquered the UFC, jiu-jitsu still reigns supreme.
Is it really any different than - “BoSox beat the Yankees, eat that Bronx fans!” ??
I mean sure if people are talking as retardedly as you’ve “quoted”, it’s pretty dumb, but otherwise there’s always going to be someone “sticking it to” someone else - that’s a big reason we watch sports.
Brian - I hate the “what ifs” game that I’ve seen so many second guessers & other assorted dissatisfied sort of folks out there spinning today as well. It’s just absolutely ridiculous IMO.
Sylvia is never going to be anything even close to being a fav fighter of mine & ( barring a brain transplant ) he’s never going to be one of the world’s most exciting fighters either. But, the man deserves proper credit for using his physical advantages well & employing the skill set that he has in order to be a VERY difficult opponent for ANY heavyweight to face.
Sure, Arlovski walked thru him once, but in two subsequent meetings Sylvia proved to be a nightmare for him. And, Mir handled him rather easily as well in their meeting, but I’m sure that if you asked Frank if he expected to enjoy such a quick, effortless victory were they to meet again, he’d be honest enough to say “probably not”.
Not to repeat the obvious, but size-wise & stylistically, the guy is just a LOT of hard work for anyone to deal with. Hell, if the quotes attributed to him are true, then even Fedor recognizes this fact with his more or less saying that Sylvia would be the last on his list of opponents he’d want to fight in the future.
Not that I believe for a minute that he holds any fear in his heart for the former two time UFC champion, just that as a match up for him, Sylvia’s assets would be difficult to have to cope with. Especially if it were in a three round fight rather than a five rounder.
Styles make fights in virtually every combat sport & Tim Sylvia just happens to have the sort of style & natural assets that make even some of the very best in the world look bad against him.
I enjoyed how Dave Meltzer’s post-fight report on Yahoo said, “Most of the talk after the match was about Lesnar’s potential to be one of the most dominant heavyweights in mixed martial arts history.”
Wait a minute… what? I could even understand, “Most of the talk after the match was that Lesnar showed huge potential,” but the aforementioned hyperbole is just ridiculous.
what about Nog’s suspect cardio, isnt that waht all the experts were talking about? Even now that Nog has won there is almost more critisizim than praise for him on the internetz. Talk about Biased. In other News Tim looked very good–his striking was very impressive, he kind of made 1/2 a fan out of me with this fight
Re: Gaijin
Your example is more akin to fans of Nog bragging to fans of Tim (should they exist).
Honestly, the only time that situation would be valid was during the ‘03 GP when it was clearly marketed as “Pride vs. the invading UFC.”
I guess what bugs me the most is insane, blind brand loyalty when fans of the sports should be supporting as much legitimate MMA as possible.
Gaijin - Where to go with their Lesner investment is,indeed, an interesting quandry for Dana & the boys now. I mean, as Dave2 said, perhaps the big guy DOES have a lot of potential, but how does the UFC allow him to reach it?
Feeding him to the established stars in his weight class, even just the “mid-card talent” like Heath Herring, Gonzaga etc. at this point, could very well put him into a 1-3, 1-4 hole pretty quickly.
But, when they’re paying him the big $$$ are they going to be happy with having to baby him along against the likes of,let’s say, the “Warpaths” of the world while he learns his trade on PPVs? Or even as the “special added attraction” on the occasional FIGHT NIGHT?
This is where I believe it would really benefit the UFC to have a regularly scheduled series along the lines of boxing’s FNF. Which would allow a green individual like Lesner to stay busy & gain experience against moderate opposition, rather than just being “thrown to the wolves” three times a year on big shows.
I see your point.
Honestly I think you’re just going to continue getting this whole “give and take” between fans of each organization for the near future. For the longest time you had the PRIDE hardcores who considered it to be the best in the world and held the UFC as having a few top fighters and the remainder being leftovers. Then when PRIDE went under and some PRIDE guys came over and underperformed the pendulum swung back and swung back in a hard, hard way. So you had UFC fans completely debasing PRIDE fighters, calling them overrated, with puffed up records and guilty of rampant illicit drug use and cheating. Now that it appears things have equalized and PRIDE fighters have made the required adjustments you’re just seeing them feeling vindicated and sticking it to all the people who they had to listen to incessantly rail against fighters they’d built up years of loyalty towards.
And I’m sure it will swing back the other way when UFC guys beat PRIDE guys and you’ll see the UFC fans who are sick of listening to the excessive smack talking PRIDE fans will no doubt be guilty of…unfortunately I don’t see it ending anytime soon.
It’ll be over when I tell my grandkids about Final Conflict ‘05 and they scoff at me and say, “Oh, Grandpa… everyone knows Exxxtreme MoonBattle Fisticuffs fighters are better than everyone else.”
I should correct my above post a bit - *PRIDE fans initially held UFC to be a subpar and 2nd class organization, whom they said had few, if any, fighters that could compete with PRIDE fighters. Which probably is the biggest reason for the litany of daggers thrown once several big names from PRIDE came over and fell flat.*
Brock Lesnar needs to be built up first and has to improve his skills. Lesnar is a monster but Mir’s Jiu-Jitsu is pretty slick and under-rated. He can also take a punch and recover.
“Brock Lesnar needs to be built up first and has to improve his skills.”
My thinking is just that given the money Lesnar is being paid, plus the hype and splash that he’s made coming into the UFC (i.e. Main event fight already) - I’m unsure if the fans will accept having him fight against the Hardonk’s, Colin Robinson’s and Eddie Sanchez’s of the HW world. I’m feel like they might feel as though they should be watching him fight the Herring’s and Gonzaga’s of the division and at this point in his career, I’m not sure he’s ready for that.
wow, Meltzer’s on Lesnars balls more than ever. All these horribly negative headlines from every other journalist and than Dave comes up with that golden softball.
I don’t think the money’s an issue. As much as they’re paying Lesnar, he means that much more to the company if they can build him into a huge drawing star. Fighting a few lower level guys may not draw immediately but getting proper ring seasoning may lead to greater confidence and improved performance when eventually he would face more highly competitive opponents.
I also think that due to lack of true mainstream coverage and UFC’s micromanagement of information most fans receive that they (the fans) will buy any fight within reason that the UFC promotes.
“My thinking is just that given the money Lesnar is being paid, plus the hype and splash that he’s made coming into the UFC (i.e. Main event fight already) - I’m unsure if the fans will accept having him fight against the Hardonk’s, Colin Robinson’s and Eddie Sanchez’s of the HW world. I’m feel like they might feel as though they should be watching him fight the Herring’s and Gonzaga’s of the division and at this point in his career, I’m not sure he’s ready for that.”
That’s true. Though if they put Brock in with Herring or Gonzaga and he loses, that’s going to hurt him more than putting him in with Hardonk, whom Brock can beat easily. The best fight for Brock next would be Hardonk or for a harder test, Sanchez.
Wow, it looks like the Pride fans are out in full force.
I give credit where credit is due. Nogueira pulled out a win where he almost got KOed several times.
If Nogueira has one thing, it’s limitless amounts of heart.
Very true.
Awwww - too bad eh cyphron another “overrated” PRIDE fighter wins.
Unlike you, Gaijin. I always give credit where credit is due. Nogueira won a fight that he should’ve lost. Nogueira would be a very bad match up for Couture.
I love big nog. This was a good measuring stick. This puts fedor’s legacy on lockdown.
It’s hard to argue with this statement. However, I’d still like to see him VS Sylvia. Style makes fight, so it’s hard to declare dominance based on MMA math. However, I believe he deserves his #1 ranking as long as he fights top competition.
Sylvia’s sub-defence is terrible. He basically left his arm out there for Nog to snatch at will and when that didn’t work he rolled right into a guillotine.
Agreed. Sylvia would be so dominant if only he wasn’t so one-dimensional.
Last night TWICE vindicated the classlic MMA narrative - martial artist uses technique to overcome stronger, larger opponent. It’s amazing that 15 years after Royce Gracie conquered the UFC, jiu-jitsu still reigns supreme.
I wonder when fighters will learn that Jiu-jitsu should be crucial to MMA? Maybe after this UFC.
All in all, it was a great UFC and answered a lot of questions about hype as well as the state of MMA.
Big Nog came through again. The guy has serious heart and can take a beating but like it or not his on the slide. I’m glad he won as I dont like sylvia but it cant be denied v herring nog was rocked and v sylvia again was hurt bad.
Glad Brock lost and hope the Inoki’s are real upset. Hey Simon, your man got beat!!!
Brock getting caught like that was amateurish. He left his leg there to be hooked when he was in control.
Amy: You read those headlines and then Meltz, and thought MELTZ showed bias? Seems to me like the media couldn’t wait to jump on Lesnar like a pack of wolves. Kind of like when Liddell vs. Jackson was “too short, not impactful and and blah blah”. What Meltzer reflects is far closer to reality: This was not devastating for Lesnar, and he showed a LOT of promise(unlike what we got to see in his first fight). IT WAS HIS SECOND MMA FIGHT! Who in the hell almost kills (a for once game)Frank Mir in his second fight? Lesnar looked a lot better here than Randleman did versus Shogun, and Lesnar is still learning. There is no questioning the talent and why UFC officials were happy. The issue is how you book the guy without creating a career-damaging losing streak.
Re: Goldberg marking out for WWE stars. Goldberg marks out for the bill payers. This was obviously part of the deal for the Lesnar-tapes, all the way down to listing amounts of WWE titles held in the graphics for Austin.
I wonder… Will they screw over Europe now by doing Nog - Werdum in London, then Nog - Mir back in Vegas? Makes sense.
IceMuncher
“I also happen to have $100 on Sylvia at +170. I only bet when the big favorite (imo) is a decent underdog according to the bookies. Tim’s style is just too much for Nog. I think he has the advantage standing, and I don’t think Nog’s TDs are good enough to take it the ground.
Dude, where was I wrong in that analysis? Sylvia absolutely worked him standing and Nog’s TD’s were horrendous. I feel more vindicated than humbled. At +170, I’m sure you would have been more than willing to buy my ticket off me after that 2nd round was over.
It’s a fight, nothing is set in stone. If I was foolish enough to think Sylvia was 100% going to win I’d bet my house instead of $100.”
Here is a link that might be helpful
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=1440
You might notice a few things on this page. One, Nog has never been finished, EVER. And thats not due to lack of competition. Second he has only lost 4 times, 2 of those were split decisions(he also avenged both losses) and the other 2 were against the greatest fighter in the history of MMA (despite what 14 year old TUF fans think).
Was placing money on sylvia at +170 stupid? Nope. Was it smart? NOPE. If it was you would be sitting there with an extra 170 bucks in your pocket instead of pleading your case on fightopinion about what a good bet it was.
As for your question about anyone buying your ticket after round 2, well I wouldn’t have. Since I have seen Nog fight before (Cro Cop, Herring, Sapp) and know what Big Tim and everyone else with their head screwed on right knows, “Every fight he’s in, he gets his ass kicked for the first 10 minutes. You start getting comfortable fighting him, next thing you know it, he catches you. The guy is a legend in the sport.”
Notice how Stone Cold, probably the greatest WWE draw of all-time (considering how hot pro wrestling was during the Attitude era), got a huge pop by the audience? It rivaled the pop that Chuck Liddell got. This should spell it out loud and clear to those who deny that there is a strong contingent of former pro wrestling marks in the MMA fanbase. I can’t remember if Angle or Taker got good pops too but they might have. If I was in the audience, I would have popped too. I don’t watch pro wrestling anymore but I grew up loving to watch Austin and Taker. After Austin turned heel and the Rock went to Hollywood, that was around the time the product got stale.
Tim’s sub defense is by no means terrible. He’s actually a pretty good jiu jitsu player, he won some no gi tournaments well before he was an MMA bigshot. That was actually just a brilliant sweep by Nogueira, and I think Tim thought Nog would take his back instead of go for the guillotine after he lost the armbar. It was really just an awesome move.
Im not arguing that Pride is better than UFC… Both are very different. I just saying if you took a UFC top fighter and threw them in Pride they would have has the shit stomped out of them. They would not have been able to take the 10min rounds, they would have have cried over a yellow card, and they would not know what to do with the stomps, soccer kicks, and knees to the head of a grounded fighter, and there would not be enough room to back up (and shall i say run/escape) Thats a fact! Give them some time and they would adjust. Same with Pride coming to the UFC. Your seeing Pride fighters adjusting from a ring to a huge cage and coming off the bench of (some) almost a year of not fighting. There is a big difference.
Tim is a good fighter - true, difficult to some - true, but that all didn’t mean shit in this match to NOG. To me it seems people here are making excuses for the guy.
Also why i have a chip on my shoulder for Tim is that he/the UFC turned down the fight against Fedor for the first US Pride.
UFC will always be looked at as sub par to the global mma community because thier fighters do not fight globally. Until they open it up and send their fighters abroad it will always be this way (IMO).
Also why i have a chip on my shoulder for Tim is that he/the UFC turned down the fight against Fedor for the first US Pride.
Tim’s always wanted to fight Fedor. In fact, it was Fedor who supposedly made demands that he never face Sylvia if he signed with the UFC, not the other way around.
“Unlike you, Gaijin. I always give credit where credit is due. Nogueira won a fight that he should’ve lost. Nogueira would be a very bad match up for Couture.”
Well I’d hate to see when you don’t give credit when credit is due…
“Nog won a fight he should have lost…” - be careful you’re not falling all over yourself to give him the credit he’s due bud.
Fact of the matter is Nogueira is known for taking a beating and snatching his opportunity to win the one time it’s presented to him. This was a typical Nogueira fight and props to him for taking it as usual.
“This should spell it out loud and clear to those who deny that there is a strong contingent of former pro wrestling marks in the MMA fanbase. I can’t remember if Angle or Taker got good pops too but they might have.”
I have a feeling the reason the pops for these guys were so big (Angle and Taker got some big pops fyi) b/c of all the hype and advertising put out to the pro wrestling fans this time around. I don’ t think you can say for sure that former pro wrestling marks have always made up a large portion of the fanbase, but I think it’s fair to say this was the case last night. People that used to watch wrestling were quite interested to see how one of their own would fair in “real fighting”.
It should be noted that A. Silva, Rampage and Nogueira all have prior cage/octagon experience in Cage Rage, King of Cage and WEF respectively. Fedor to my knowledge has not had any cage experience and should be questioned until he does step in one.
Regardless of the success of the three fighters above, I think the “overrated” label for Pride fighters still applies because the prevailing thought was that none of UFC fighters could hang with the Pride ones. That clearly isn’t true. That’s not to say that Pride fighters are garbage, but that the notion that they were vastly superior is in fact a myth. Tim holding his own against Nog before getting submitted is another example of that.
Eitherway, I’m ecstatic that Nog is the UFC HW champ! His title reign in Pride was one of the most memorable and it was sad to see his legacy get dimished by the rise of Fedor.
“Tim’s always wanted to fight Fedor. In fact, it was Fedor who supposedly made demands that he never face Sylvia if he signed with the UFC, not the other way around.”
What? source? where you get your info from Dana himself LOL ..In an interview I watched on “inside mma” Fedor said he wanted to fight Tim when he came to the US but the UFC and TIM said no and thats when coleman stepped in. UFC had a chance to put their heavyweight champ against Pride’s and they said no. And now their doing it with Randy. –Off the subject– UFC should just end the debate and do a co promotion with M1 and make the fight happen with Fedor.
i actually thought Tim was going to win when UFC first mmentioned the fight. I believed that Nog has already hit his prime and i was surprised to see him win.. which in my opinion made it even more humiliating for Tim in my eyes.
Rampage vs. Chuck .. i gave it to Chuck for the fact 1) that the fight was now in “his” house. 2) Rampage left Pride with some hard losses and it seemed he was never the same after he got his ribs broken and knocked the fuck out by Wandy.
Chuck vs. Wandy.. i gave it to Chuck. 1)wandy was never the same after getting his face mashed in by crocop and then fighting (i felt too soon) and getting his ass knocked out by Hendo.
I still give cred to Wandy for jumping up weight classes and fighting out of his norm (crocop/hunt). Something i would like to see Chuck and UFC do with open weight tournaments.
I also give cred to Chuck as a Top US fighter. But not the best pound for pound fighter in the world as some would claim.
Now that PRIDE veterans have the UFC’s Heavyweight, Light heavyweight and Middleweight titles, I think the debate is over about which company had the ‘best of the best’ as far as talent is concerned.
The new question is this: who can defeat PRIDE’s #2 man, Nogeuira?
UFC lost their chance at signing Fedor, and apparently, Dana White “Doesn’t give a shit” about Josh Barnett. So the #1 and #3 Heavyweights in the world will not get a shot at Nogeuira. Randy Couture is in limbo, and Andre Arlovski is out of the picture. So there goes two more top 10 heavyweights.
Another PRIDE veteran, Fabricio Werdum, is lining up for the next shot. So if/when Nog beats Werdum, are we looking at a rematch with Captain NyQuil, Tim Sylvia? Frank Mir? Or (this is frightening)…a fight against Cheik Kongo?
On top, the UFC is rapidly running out of options…
No commission worth it’s salt in the US would allow an open weight tournament. So “unfortunately” we’ll never see anything like that here.
Amy Robinson just likes to whine about Meltzer for some reason. Actually if Amy can’t see that Lesnar came out looking like a potential future star last night I don’t think she carries any credibility at all.
“It should be noted that A. Silva, Rampage and Nogueira all have prior cage/octagon experience in Cage Rage, King of Cage and WEF respectively. Fedor to my knowledge has not had any cage experience and should be questioned until he does step in one.”
I think elbows would be more of a worry to Fedor than the cage. With Fedor’s style, I don’t think the cage would hurt him like it would hurt Cro Cop or the Chute Boxe guys. If Fedor was in the UFC, I could see Randy elbowing him in the face, opening up a cut, working that cut and getting a cut stoppage. Fedor is an easy bleeder.
I’ve never been a fan of elbows. They are a cheap way to get a cut and not much else. In UFC 80, I think I counted at least 3 guys intentionally using an elbow to cut a guy. Joe Stevenson was bleeding like a fountain in that match. I don’t see the purpose of elbows on the ground. Ground n Pound was fine the way it was in PRIDE. I’d take PRIDE’s knees to the head and Fedor’s ground n pound over short elbows on the ground any day.
“Eitherway, I’m ecstatic that Nog is the UFC HW champ! His title reign in Pride was one of the most memorable and it was sad to see his legacy get dimished by the rise of Fedor.”
Nog is a really tough SOB after taking such a beating from Fedor on the ground and still not getting knocked out. Fedor’s Ground n Pound is absolutely vicious.
Lot’s of Pride vs UFC romos posting on here.
Nice.
What? source?
Meltzer.
UFC had a chance to put their heavyweight champ against Pride’s and they said no.
What a brilliant marketing strategy: Give your promotional competition your heavyweight champion in their American debut! Think about that one. PRIDE didn’t seem so okay with just handing Wanderlei over to the UFC either, if you want to start making arguments about what PRIDE did. Besides, I seem to remember several guys under UFC contract in PRIDE *in Japan*. Ricco/Noguiera, anyone? It so happens none of them were champions though.
As for the Noguiera/Werdum talk, god, that fight will be awful.
“Now that PRIDE veterans have the UFC’s Heavyweight, Light heavyweight and Middleweight titles, I think the debate is over about which company had the ‘best of the best’ as far as talent is concerned.”
I think that debate was settled when UFC veterans took Pride’s first Grand Prix, Middleweight and Welterweight titles.
Well I’d hate to see when you don’t give credit when credit is due…
Look at yourself in the mirror, Gaijin. That’s you. When was the last time you admit you’re wrong?
“Nog won a fight he should have lost…” - be careful you’re not falling all over yourself to give him the credit he’s due bud.
So you’re telling me Nog didn’t get his ass handed to him for the first two rounds? He was losing on points as well as in terms of damage dealt.
Are you not going to give Sylvia the credit HE deserves? If you had to write the up the review for the fight, I’d assume you would claim that Nogueira destroyed Sylvia, right?
Mixed martial arts is about being inclusive not exclusive. The more you take out, the less it is MMA. If you support knees, you should support elbows. As to the argument that its cheap and its causes cuts, its a part of the game. I liked how the cut on Stevenson forced him to push the action and it made him push the action and that made it a much more dramatic and exciting fight. If fighters don’t want to get cut, they shouldn’t put themselves in a position to be cut.
I love how on Inside MMA, every fighter they asked about elbows has no issue with it and despite all the great points that they raise in support of it, Bas is adamantly against elbows.
Hey props to Sylvia he damaged Nog but couldn’t put him away - his style is basically the antithesis of finishing guys off because it involves *gasp* taking a risk. Sylvia was pretty uncharacteristically aggressive until he scored the knockdown, then he seem ever content to revert to his old, plodding win via decision style. Not to mention that Nog has NEVER been finished in any fight.
So sure, Sylvia was winning on points and damage done but he was less and less dominating as the fight went on - do I think people are greatly exaggerating the amount of “damage” he did? Yes, I do. He dropped him one time and then like Herring couldn’t finish the job. As the fight wore on Nog started to gain momentum, scoring some takedowns and successfully pulling guard. I don’t think that a lot of people didn’t start to think, “it’s only a matter of time before Nog catches this guy.”
Fedor gave the blueprint on how to beat the man - and it wasn’t by taking him out on the feet. You have to be able to pound it out on the ground, in his wheelhouse and if you aren’t one of the best sub-defence guys around - you will eventually get caught.
But I guess this is where we should throw in something about steroids and puffed up/can-fed records of PRIDE fighters - b/c that’s the “proof” you were so certain you were going to get Saturday night and yet it didn’t come. Maybe if you say it enough times…it might come true?
If you’re going to bring up steroid abuse again, then fine.
Nog proves that he’s a top heavyweight. His fight did nothing to disprove the allegation of rampant steroid use in Pride.
If anything, I’m even more impressed that Fedor dominated in an organization filled with so many steroid abusers. He’s better than Rampage that’s for sure. Rampage could never get over the hump of fighting the steroid-abusing Chute box academy.
Are you not going to give Sylvia the credit HE deserves? If you had to write the up the review for the fight, I’d assume you would claim that Nogueira destroyed Sylvia, right?
Sylvia did about as well as Prime Mirko Cro Cop did, people. I doubt many people will want to make comparisons of 2003 Cro Cop and Big Tim though.
“Mixed martial arts is about being inclusive not exclusive. The more you take out, the less it is MMA. If you support knees, you should support elbows. As to the argument that its cheap and its causes cuts, its a part of the game. I liked how the cut on Stevenson forced him to push the action and it made him push the action and that made it a much more dramatic and exciting fight. If fighters don’t want to get cut, they shouldn’t put themselves in a position to be cut.”
PRIDE disallowed elbows to the head and it wasn’t any less MMA. Just as UFC disallowing knees to the head, soccer kicks and stomps isn’t any less MMA.
“I love how on Inside MMA, every fighter they asked about elbows has no issue with it and despite all the great points that they raise in support of it, Bas is adamantly against elbows.”
Frank Shamrock is also against elbows on the ground. He’s ok with them used in standing Muay Thai though.
I think Cage Rage’s policy on elbows in the best. They are banned on the ground but legal standing. Standing elbows have KO power (see Anderson Silva’s HL Elbow KO over Frkylund) whereas elbows on the ground cause cuts more than anything. In the UFC it’s very common to see guys use elbows to cut a guy and you saw that a lot in UFC 80. No one wants to see a cut stoppage and it’s cheap to cut a guy intentionally with an elbow and then work a cut hoping for stoppage. Fans generally boo when fights end like that.
“If anything, I’m even more impressed that Fedor dominated in an organization filled with so many steroid abusers. He’s better than Rampage that’s for sure. Rampage could never get over the hump of fighting the steroid-abusing Chute box academy.”
I LOVE that this is the argument that’s always put up by people when it appears their shitty steroid argument doesn’t hold as much water as they thought it did before.
I guess in an organization where you just assume everyone was taking part in rampant steroid abuse, you then just change your argument to state that “everyone abused steroids in the organization….except for fighter A.” Right…the entire Chute Boxe team abused steroids and that was it! They were the only team that found the loophole in the system…*rolls eyes* This is the best argument you can come up with? Everyone cheated - except for the guys its most convenient for my argument to mean f*ck all.
Yep - that makes the most sense. It’s either one of two things:
*(a) Since it was known there was no testing - everyone was abusing the PEDs and so it was just as even a playing field b/c everyone was on something; or
*(b) it’s nowhere near the levels you’d love to make it out to be and likely isn’t any different than the current IQ test that happens in the US.
Funny that the argument just changes every time that it becomes convenient to change it.
Let me ask you a few brain teasers:
What’s the “performance enhancing drug of choice” amongst athletes these days? - HGH.
What’s a drug that’s never tested for in by any athletic commission in the US or in Japan?
- HGH.
What country has been proven at least in the last 10 years (if not for longer) to be among the worst, if not the worst of “doping” nations?
- The US.
What country has maybe the easiest access to illicit PED’s via one of the most porous borders w/ the most unregulated medical system in the free world?
- The US via Mexico.
But hey - it’s the one team from Brazil, fighting in Japan that’s breaking all the rules.
Convenient and horseshit argument you have there isn’t it?
Yeah, there were a lot of cuts in UFC 80, but none of the fights were stopped because of it. I agree with what Big John said about elbows. The true spirit of MMA is about blending and utilizing anything that available. That’s what makes MMA so exciting because anything can happen. If you consider yourself a MMA purist, you have to support both elbows and knees because they both add a different dimension to the game. If you take away elbows and knees, it reduces your options and that’s moving away from what MMA is about.
Never understood the criticism of elbows. The percentage of fights stopped by cuts from elbows is something like 2%.
“If you take away elbows and knees, it reduces your options and that’s moving away from what MMA is about.”
Naw, it’s still MMA without them. Without them it is straying away from it’s foundations, when everyone was calling it Vale Tudo, which translates into “No Holds Barred”.
But hey - it’s the one team from Brazil, fighting in Japan that’s breaking all the rules.
Convenient and horseshit argument you have there isn’t it?
Fighters in the US are caught abusing drugs even when they are tested.
Fighters in Japan are not tested. Is it a reach of logic to conclude that there is rampant steroid abuse there, far more than they are here where steroid testing is implemented?
Are you saying that fighters fighting in Japan refrain from using steroids because they are noble warriors with a strong sense of ethics?
Damn, man. Just use some logic instead of arguing for argument’s sake!
While you would think there would be more steroid abuse in Japan because it’s legal there, we have no evidence of this. Those who say “Chute Boxe was juicing but Rampage, Nogueira and Anderson Silva (who was in chute boxe btw) were clean!” are just speculating. No one has any proof that they were juicing. PRIDE haters are using Nogueira, Rampage and Anderson Silva as exceptions to justify their speculation that PRIDE fighters = juicers. What about Dan Henderson? He faired very well against Rampage for being such a small guy. Is Dan one of those exceptions too? Is every PRIDE fighter that does well in the UFC an exception?
“Is every PRIDE fighter that does well in the UFC an exception?”
Yes, can’t you see how this argument works? It’s the most convenient explanation and therefore it’s true.
Proof that PRIDE fighters cheat is when they lose fights, when they are dominant and win fights - they are the exception. Except the “exception” is growing with each event.
“Damn, man. Just use some logic instead of arguing for argument’s sake!”
It’s just as easy to use logic to say that it’s been proven time and again that the AC testing is easily manipulated. So are we to believe people aren’t manipulating it b/c they are noble warriors with a strong sense of ethics?
My point being - the sword cuts both ways. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.