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The questions not being asked about UFC’s backing of Vitor Belfort’s testosterone usage

By Zach Arnold | February 7, 2013

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Here’s the corporate statement that set things ablaze yesterday online:

Zuffa, LLC, owner of the Ultimate Fighting Championship®, released the following statement today regarding drug test results from UFC on FX 7 that took place in Sao Paulo, Brazil, on January 19, 2013.

All 22 fighters on the UFC on FX 7 card were drug tested at the event and all fighters passed their drug tests with the exception of Thiago Tavares. The results for Tavares showed the presence of Drostanolone, an anabolic steroid and banned substance. Tavares has been informed that he will receive a 9-month suspension retroactive to the date of the event and that he must pass a drug test upon completion of the suspension before receiving clearance to compete again.

To dispel rumors that have been circulated, Zuffa wishes to clarify that Vitor Belfort’s drug test results were negative and did not indicate the presence of any performance enhancing drugs.

Belfort has been on a medically approved testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) regimen under the supervision of a medical doctor from the State of Nevada, after being diagnosed with hypogonadism, or low testosterone. The purpose of a medically administered TRT regimen is to allow patients with hypogonadism to maintain testosterone levels within a range that is normal for an adult male.

UFC will suspend fighters for getting caught smoking marijuana but they won’t bust fighters who get hall passes for testosterone.

If you have been following the Anthony Bosch drug scandal in Major League Baseball, the media has largely focused on Bosch and his background while also naming supposed clients. In the case of the Belfort testosterone news, all of the heat has been on Belfort and little of it elsewhere.

The focus should be on the enablers moreso than the fighters at this point. It takes many parties to tango on this front.

Question 1. Who is the doctor?

UFC won’t give names. Is it Tim Trainor, Keith Kizer’s friendly doctor for the Nevada State Athletic Commission (who isn’t an endocrinologist)? Is it Dr. Jeff Davidson, the emergency room doctor that UFC leans on heavily for overseas events? If not either one of those doctors, then who is it? And why hasn’t the name been released?

Question 2. Did Belfort pay for the doctor to give the hall pass or has the doctor being paid/reimbursed for services by the UFC?

Remember when Rampage Jackson claimed that his doctor billed the UFC last year? He would later claim that a “Russian doctor” who hooked him up with testosterone was paid with money out of his own pocket…

Question 3. Will UFC get away with this behavior because fans are giving up on drug usage in all sports?

I ask this question because of two items I’ve seen within the last 24 hours. First, this item by Greg Savage about not all hall passes being equal is a great read. He’s exactly on target, too.

The scary part is that there are elements of the national American sports media that are starting to consider backing the UFC’s position of having mark doctors handle athletes who are using testosterone. Case in point: Mike Greenberg of ESPN says that the battle to combat doping in sports is a futile effort and that we should consider letting doctors do a legalized form of doping. Mike Golic disagreed with this position, saying the point of athletes using drugs is to always get an advantage over other athletes — which means that even if there was legalized doping, the cheaters would simply use a higher volume of drugs and experiment with new drugs not currently being administered by doctors.

Question 4. How should UFC view Michael Bisping’s losses to fighters when he keeps fighting guys who are getting hall passes for testosterone?

When it’s time to negotiate a new deal, I’m sure they’ll be benevolent and discount the doping by his opponents… right? Right?

Question 5. Will media writers emphasize the importance of attacking doping in combat sports because the risks of physical damage being inflicted by cheaters are much more serious than hitting home runs or having more endurance to ride a bicycle?

This always seems to get lost in the shuffle. It just happens to be the most important point to focus on when it comes to doping in combat sports.

Topics: Boxing, Brazil, Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 41 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

41 Responses to “The questions not being asked about UFC’s backing of Vitor Belfort’s testosterone usage”

  1. 45 Huddle says:

    QUESTION 6 – Why is a fighter who has been busted for steroids in the past being allowed to use TRT???

    And lets be honest here.

    The UFC gets about 25% credit for at least being honest about what their fighters are doing during international events. They announce when guys get busted for banned substances and when they are taking TRT.

    The other 75%…. Well, there is absolutely no reason they should be allowing TRT during their events. Plain and simple. Pure garbage.

  2. Chris says:

    Allowing a guy previously busted for PED’s to use TRT is a joke.

    The UFC does not care about fighters cheating. They just want them to be smart enough to do it the legal way.

  3. Safari_Punch says:


    How much of a factor do you think the UFC’s policy was what kept Josh Barnett from signing – especially with the some are more equal than others politics? Personally, I don’t see how he could possibly trust White and the Fertittas after what has gone down over the years. Signing with the UFC may have killed off both his MMA and his pro wrestling career. It can’t be a good feeling looking over a contract and knowing that a powerful promotion holds all the cards and can pretty much get away with anything. The UFC stakeholders, for the most part, believe them due to their complete and total ignorance of history of the sport and/or fear of losing credentials(media wise).

    • Zach Arnold says:

      I think UFC’s testosterone backing and their relationships w/ Jeff Davidson (and Tim Trainor via Keith Kizer as a NSAC proxy) really puts guys like Barnett, who has a prior history but are looking for fights, in a tough position. If you have a prior record and you are now w/o much leverage, how do you know what side UFC will be on one day or another when they are playing God over who gets the hall passes and who doesn’t?

      • Safari_Punch says:


        That is what I was thinking too. Barnett is not one to walk on egg shells, jump through hoops or go overboard in terms of being a “company man.” Zuffa is quite temperamental and I don’t believe Barnett would stay on managements good sign for too long, given the history.

        Some argue that the UFC has no real power and the AC’s have all of it. I tend to disagree.Barnett couldn’t get licensed in Ohio to fight Brett Rogers because of the alleged positive test in California (a one year ban which had since passed) and had to go to Texas where there was no AC. Strikeforce was owned by the Scott Coker/San Jose group at that time. When Zuffa purchased Strike Force, Barnett’s license was magically approved for the Cincinnati, Ohio show for Sergei Kharitonov fight. Why didn’t Barnett have to appease the OSAC in order to get his license? Apparently it was a big issue before and then when Zuffa owns the company its a non-issue? Something definitely doesn’t add up there.

        The only thing consistent between AC’s and the UFC is inconsistency.

        • 45 Huddle says:

          I assumed it had more to do with Pro Wrestling. It is a simple calculation for Barnett….

          UFC Pay vs. 2nd Best Option + Pro Wrestling

          Even if it is within a close ballpark, Barnett is likely to pick the MMA/Pro Wrestling combo.

          If that is what works for him…. great. But it does mean the end of any reasonable fan taking him seriously as a MMA fighter. The UFC has probably 23 of the Top 25 Heavyweights under contract. If he doesn’t sign with them (at age 35) it means he doesn’t plan on fighting anybody remotely respectable for the rest of his career.

          And if you look at his career, basically after 2006 he stopped fighting top competition. Sort of a shame really… because while I don’t think he is the best, it would have been nice to seen him fight even 3 of the top 10 fighters of today….

  4. The Judge says:

    I am confused as to why nobody is pointing out the one fact that makes a lot of these questions irrelevant.

    This is from MMA Fighting’s report yesterday, which makes one question I had after reading UFC’s release answered:

    “The UFC said Belfort’s test results came back within normal range.”

    NORMAL. Not Overeem’s 14 to 1 or whatever all the other fighters who failed the test had, but at the levels you and me have. Which would mean that at the point that Belfort delivered that vicious knockout of Bisping, he was no more jacked up than you and me. His TRT usage was at levels appropriate to compensate for hypogonadism (which, of course, is in turn due to past steroid use).
    What am I missing here?

    • Zach Arnold says:

      Because there are plenty of fighters who abuse steroids, wreck their endocrine system, and then double-dip w/ testosterone to get back to ‘normal levels.’

      Belfort’s a past offender. It’s why people who don’t believe testosterone hall passes should be given out also don’t believe that the guys crying ‘hypogonadism’ are suffering from such an illness because of a reason *other* than previous and/or current steroid usage.

      The UFC statement said Belfort’s doc is in Nevada. Unless that doctor is constantly around Belfort to test him, it’s pretty easy to skate around the T/E ratio if you’re smart enough to manipulate it.

      The larger moral argument to be fought over is whether or not you believe past steroid users should be given a hall pass to use testosterone. I flat out reject the notion that athletes who have wrecked their bodies with previous steroid use should be allowed to use testosterone (the base chemical of all anabolic steroids) in order to be ‘normal’ to fight in MMA. Since when is fighting in a cage while using testosterone a Constitutional entitlement in the name of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

      • The Judge says:

        “Because there are plenty of fighters who abuse steroids, wreck their endocrine system, and then double-dip w/ testosterone to get back to ‘normal levels.’”

        I don’t have much sympathy for people who do this, but I don’t think it’s too big a deal. It eliminates the “they are so jacked up with testosterone that they are dangerous to their opponent” line of argument.

        You don’t gain an advantage over your opponent. This, even if you don’t think it’s completely fair, is very different and many steps better than enhancing your fighting power with chemicals.

        “Belfort’s a past offender. It’s why people…”

        I should think the opposite. It’s reasonable that a past steroid user would genuinely need testosterone replacement therapy, whereas a young 20-something fighter is probably cheating, if he claims hypogonadism, just so he can explain elevated testosterone levels.

        “The UFC statement said Belfort’s doc is in Nevada. Unless that doctor is constantly around Belfort to test him, it’s pretty easy to skate around the T/E ratio if you’re smart enough to manipulate it.”

        If that’s the case, you don’t need to claim TRT therapy, just skate around testing.

        “Since when is fighting in a cage while using testosterone a Constitutional entitlement in the name of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?”

        Well, the constitutional argument (“is this legal?”) is not relevant here, since I don’t think anybody is trying to make TRT illegal, just banned by a promoter for competitors in his promotions. Internal regulations of a private enterprise (UFC)– they have a right to put in any rules/restrictions they like.

      • Weezy02 says:

        “Since when is fighting in a cage while using testosterone a Constitutional entitlement in the name of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?”

        It’s not. That’s why they have to make their case to state regulators, who then either approve or deny such an exemption. Now, are those regulators crooked? Seeing as how arguably most politicians are, I leave that to your imagination. The entities to put pressure on here, in my opinion, are the states.

        “Will UFC get away with this behavior because fans are giving up on drug usage in all sports?”

        As for this question, the answer is most likely yes (sadly). Just being brutally honest with you. Most fans care very little about this subject in my humble opinion. Do sites like this get thousands of views from it? I’m certain they do. But of the millions of casual fans out there that loosely follow MMA, they are a miniscule percentage (again, my opinion). Most guys just like to get a pizza and watch talented fighters at work several times a year with their friends. That’s it. It’s entertainment like a hockey game, auto race, etc….
        At the end of the day they’ll look at the fact that state agencies are doing testing and they’ll give it little extra concern. FYI – If it makes you feel better, keep in mind that MMA used to have basically zero testing at all. Shows in Japan were encouraging uses from what I hear. SEG decision makers had the same attitude. Zuffa does a poor job of stopping it, in my opinion, as do government agencies throughout the world. But I suppose one could argue that they are, at least, attempting something (futile or laughable though it may be).

        • Zach Arnold says:

          You’re probably right, but the minute a major accident, injury/death happens at the hands of a guy with a T hall pass, all hell breaks loose over issues of liability given UFC’s past track record (that’s now established).

        • 45 Huddle says:


          Imagine a guy gets a severe brain injury from his opponent…. And that guy was on TRT…. It is going to get ugly fast.

    • phil says:

      You are confusing things here.

      Everyone that uses synthetic testosterone will have a screwed up T:E Ratio (what overeem was caught with at 14 to 1)

      People on TRT need to have their testosterone level in normal ranges, but the ratio will be out of whack because the ratio tells you that there is synthetic testosterone in the system.

      If someone with a TRT exemption has a normal t/e ratio something is seriously out of whack.

      • The Judge says:

        Phil, you really spiked my curiosity–this is what I was hoping to figure out. When they say “testosterone levels are normal”–do they mean the T:E ratio? Or is there another test, measuring levels overall? By the same token, when they say “normal”, what test are they referring to and does that mean normal for a TRT-er, and there is a level, that would be considered too high even for Belfort, Sonnen, etc., a level that would indicate not just use, but abuse?

        I know I have had my testosterone measured as part of blood work, so my logical conclusion means is if testosterone levels are fine, but T/E are elevated, that still means TRT is being administered at levels that only restore your body to normal. Perhaps testosterone levels, however, are easy to hide, whereas T/E ratio is not?

        • Jamie Penick says:

          Testosterone levels can only be determined via blood tests, which is why the T/E ratio issue can be misleading. All an elevated T/E ratio will do is show the likely presence of synthetic testosterone. Blood tests are needed to know what the testosterone levels are actually at, and as these therapeutic use exemptions aren’t going to lengths needed to test those who have approval, there’s ripe opportunity for abuse.

    • Kyle says:

      The part you’re missing is a normal male ratio is 1-1 … A fighter with a TRT exemption is considered “normal” as long as he is under 7-1 … So even though he was “within levels” he still had at LEAST 3 times as much testosterone as his (similar aged) opponent. Not a level playing field.

      This also doesn’t count for the fact that most low TRT levels are caused by previous steroid use (and vitor has been busted before) essentially youre rewarding a guy for cheating.

      • Mike Fagan says:

        T:E ratio tells you nothing about how much testosterone is in someone’s body, just how much testosterone they have in relation to epitestosterone. Epitestosterone is produced by the body, generally, in the same amount as testosterone. (Which is why a typical T:E ratio is 1:1, though fluctuations do exist.) Epitestosterone is not produced when exogenous testosterone is administered, which is why the T:E test is used as a baseline test to find drug abusers. However, one can have a high T:E level and still be within the normal levels of testosterone.

        • 45 Huddle says:

          They would need to do blood tests in order to determine high levels of testosterone, correct?

  5. 45 Huddle says:

    I feel bad for a guy like Michael Bisping…

    He is 9-4 at Middleweight in the UFC.

    Of his 4 losses, 3 of the fighters (Sonnen, Belfort, & Henderson) are known TRT guys. I would be shocked if Wanderlei wasn’t using.

    When people say “who is it hurting”? Point to Michael Bisping and he is a perfect example of a guy who likely isn’t using and is being penalized for it.

  6. canadiansteel says:

    All these conspiracy theorists, including the writer if this embarrassing article, need to find a hobby. First off, he starts off stating that the ufc “won’t bust fighters” taking a shortcut with try. “Bust” what?. Penalize a fighter for doing something legal? That’s intelligence right there. I don’t agree with trt either, but if you’re going to be one of the jackasses that rip the ufc no matter what (because YOU know everything that goes on in the business and how to fix it) at least think of a valid argument. People who have been busted doing steroids shouldnt be allowed trt? So if an athelete spends his career overseas fighting on steroids, against other fighters on steroids, and decides “hey, I want to clean up and take my career to the next level (ufc), he shouldnt be able to admit wrongdoing and at least allowed to be given a chance, and compete at normal t levels? Maybe you should start and run your own billion dollar organization and only hire people who have never done any wrong in life (plenty of those), and see how you do.

    • 45 Huddle says:

      “So if an athelete spends his career overseas fighting on steroids, against other fighters on steroids, and decides “hey, I want to clean up and take my career to the next level (ufc), he shouldnt be able to admit wrongdoing and at least allowed to be given a chance, and compete at normal t levels?”


      He screwed up his body. He should pay the consequences…. Not get an advantage from it…

      • canadiansteel says:

        So have you ever cheated on a test in school when you were a kid? Maybe because of that you should have to deal with the consequences and never be allowed to use adequate educational resources ever again, so that you can take the tests that everyone can take, so that you may have a career that everyone else can have, so you may support yourself and family as everyone else has. Like I said, I don’t agree with people abusing trt, but everyone deserves a fair shake, maybe test more often before the fight so it is known if they are over the limit, and then the opponent may chose whether or not to take a fight. There are fighters that abuse it, fighters that don’t. To claim the ufc isn’t doing its part is desperate and ignorant. They do more than most, are catching guys, and at least they are telling the (undeserving) public about it. Why not attack the athletic commission with your thousands of complaints and opinions, keyboard warriors. Instead of constantly hating everything the ufc and Dana white does. Do you have to deal with thousands of people everyday of life (fighters, commissions, managers, lawyers, advertisers, etc)? I don’t. So while I may not agree with a lot of what goes on in the sport, if the Ufc says they are doing the best they can, who am I or anyone of you to judge?

        • Zach Arnold says:

          So have you ever cheated on a test in school when you were a kid? Maybe because of that you should have to deal with the consequences and never be allowed to use adequate educational resources ever again,

          You’re comparing going to school and getting in trouble on the same moral plane as someone who damages their body due to voluntary steroid usage and now wants a hall pass to use anabolic steroids again to earn a living inflicting physical damage on other athletes?

        • edub says:

          Yea, why should we question anything the UFC does Zach? Jeez

  7. 45 Huddle says:

    In a story that makes you say: “WTF”…. Gray Maynard says he is thinking about going down to 145…

    Now, I don’t know if this is possible. He seems big for 155…

    But it does show a huge trend of the average sized fighter in each weight class getting bigger. Frankie Edgar is going to have to go down to Bantamweight to be in the correct weight class pretty soon.

    It is amazing what happens when the UFC has all of the weight classes and fighters can get down as low as they want without losing money.

    When the WEC merged into the UFC, I said it would take about 2 years for the divisions to work themselves out. I think I was wrong on that one. I still think we have a few more years before we see all of the best fighters competing in their natural weight classes.

    Right now we are getting mostly Lightweights moving down. Soon that will push more guys to Bantamweight and so on.

  8. The Judge says:

    “Testosterone levels can only be determined via blood tests, which is why the T/E ratio issue can be misleading. All an elevated T/E ratio will do is show the likely presence of synthetic testosterone.”

    Duh. I knew that, that’s why they had me get blood work a couple of times, just not connecting the dots: urine testing=no testosterone levels. So, if UFC says Belfort’s tests are normal, what does that mean? That his T/E ratio is fine? That he only has enough synthetic testosterone to bring his levels up to normal?

  9. 45 Huddle says:

    Oh god…. Bellator is having Dixie Carter on to make an announcement….

    Could be Barnett being signed…. But boy does it stink to see SpikeTV integrate Pro Wrestling and MMA the way they do….

    I would be surprised if it is Barnett because he doesn’t seem like the TNA sort of wrestler…. But who knows…. stranger stuff has happened.

    • Chuck says:

      The “announcement” had nothing to do with Bellator….nor Barnett. The announcement(s) was/were 1.) reiterating that Impact! will be doing shows outside of Universal Studios (mentioning the Impact tapings in Chicago and Corpus Christi) and 2.) Jeff Hardy returning February 28th and him signing a long-term contract with TNA (of course she didn’t say how long). She mentioned King Mo but just said that he is training, is excited to be signed with TNA, etc. Nothing doing there.

      Kind of stupid to use Bellator air-time to talk about that kind of stuff, but whatever.

  10. Zach Arnold says:

    “They abused steroids earlier in life, their body no longer produces testosterone, they need replacement therapy for the testosterone. You cheated back in the day, that’s your fault. You shouldn’t get a doctor’s note. That’s bullshit.

    “He’s juicing. He knocks out Bisping. He has a doctor’s note, and he’s like “Oh, it’s okay. I’m allowed to take steroids because I have a doctor’s note. I’m allowed to cheat because I have a doctor’s note.” And then they’re gonna tell me I can’t smoke weed because it’s a performance enhancing drug? They say “it puts you in the zone.”

  11. The Judge says:

    And let’s ban painkillers. If you have to take acetaminophen before the fight for a toothache, that means you haven’t been taking care of your teeth and this is proper punishment.

    • Chuck says:

      I believe painkillers (as well as Aspirin) are banned on site at fight events. Actually, I think AC’s test for pain killers.

      • The Judge says:

        Sorry, I wasn’t clear in my phrasing. I meant either a) otc stuff taken to relieve an ache before the fight b) stuff taken during a recovery from injury or surgery to relieve pain way before the fight. Or are those banned too?

        • Chuck says:

          They are either out-right banned or you need a doctor’s clearance. I believe it was pain killers is what got Karo Parisyan fired form UFC. Aspirin is banned on-site because it is a blood thinner, which raises your risk of subdural hemotomas. I hope that helps/is correct.

          Hell, sports drinks and energy drinks are banned in some states on-site (except for AFTER a fight), so of course OTC’s and the like are banned too. Also depends on the state I guess.

  12. The Judge says:

    Surely, you can take painkillers while recovering from surgery, even if you can’t take them right before the fight?

    And I would understand aspirin or some other specific active components, but all? acetaminophen? No Nyquil or robitussin or anything like that either? If you have diarrhea, suffer through? Energy drinks being banned on-site is also different from, for example, not being able to take them a couple of days before the fight to stay up.

    If that is the case, I think that’s ridiculous and is a much bigger issue than appropriately used TRT.

    • Chuck says:

      Well, recovering during surgery is a bit different than someone taking pain pills before a fight (don’t forget, many people [weasel words, I know] take painkillers recreationally). I’m sure a fighter can take Imodium if he/she has diarrhea before a fight, but probably has to let a commissioner know beforehand. Again, comes down to having permission (whether that be from a doctor or a commish). Hell, recently for the Lucas Matthyse/ Mike Dallas Jr. fight Lucas was taking Vitamin supplements before the fight, and Dallas’ trainer, Virgil Hunter, made a fit of it. The commissioner (Keith Kizer himself) said Lucas took nothing wrong. So, especially for cases like THAT it is best to make sure everything a fighter takes is on the up-and-up and that those that need to know, know.

      Hey, if I was a trainer or fighter, and I see the opponent take something orally, and I can’t tell what it is, I would make a fit of it as well.

      • Chuck says:

        About Sports and energy drinks…….of course a fighter can drink those even a day before the fight. How could you test for stuff like that? But on-site many states ban them. After the first Fernando Vargas/Shane Mosley fight Mosley got a JUDGE to ban the use of energy drinks during the rematch (for both fighters). And after that many states ban those drinks on-site. Silly as hell, I know, but there you go.

      • The Judge says:

        But that’s what I meant by my original painkiller comment. Taking painkillers while recovering from surgery or injury is allowing your body to get back in shape due to abuse it has taken through the years from the choices you made (including steroid use, which can contribute to need for surgery/illness). Which is the standard some of us are trying to apply to justify the ban of TRT. Meltzer’s new article makes me think it’s possible to tell from the tests whether the level of testosterone is at what you would expect from somebody using TRT just as recovery and somebody using it to get testosterone to above-normal levels, as a boost. Which is roughly where I would suggest drawing the line.

        • Chuck says:

          It’s a slippery-slope, that’s for damn sure. The AC’s should be at fault, especially Nevada that allows a 6:1 T/E ratio, which is ridiculous. Most states allow 4:1, which is high as it is.

          Here is some devil advocate-playing. If someone can’t produce the correct amount of testosterone (regardless of age, but especially someone in their 20’s or early 30’s) should he/she fight at all? I mean, if a fighter can’t produce the amount of testosterone it takes to be good but is good anyways then awesome. But some fighters it is said can’t even function in the regular world without the TRT (Nate Marquardt comes to mind). There are some pre-existing conditions that people have that blocks them from fighting. If a heart murmur is found, that fighter is DONE. If a fighter suffers a bad concussion (maybe not quite second-impact syndrome, but bad enough) and it shows up on the CAT scan then that fighter is done (Edwin Valero comes to mind. But the great state of TEXAS let him fight!).

          Maybe Low T should come into play? Maybe not force a fighter to stop fighting (as I said, a fighter having Low T doing great in a fight should be allowed to fight) but to be looked at closely.

  13. Black Dog says:

    I see it as Dana White using Vince McMahon’s “wink and a nod” attitude. Talk big about how you have a “Zero Tolerance Policy” in effect, but actually do nothing about. Just trot out a sacrificial lamb to toe the party line (Darren Matthews, aka William Regal), and everything’s all nice and lovely.

    Not sure who Dana has used for that yet, but I’m sure he’ll find someone.

    In any case, I do not support illegal drug use to gain an edge. I am not like Ivan “BAN HIM FOR LIFE” Trembow; if you f— up, then you get a 2nd chance. After that, go find something else to do. That simple.

  14. The Judge says:

    Chuck, I think that’s being taken care of with the basic idea of a physical. Which, to me, is “is it safe for this guy to fight?” If it’s not, that should show up on the physical and allow for “can’t produce the right amount of testosterone but is good anyway” scenario.
    If the guy’s low testosterone is the only issue, then TRT should eliminate the concern. If there were drugs that would eliminate all hazards of a guy with multiple concussions or a heart defect fighting, then fighting with concussions or a heart defect becomes a non-issue.

  15. Muscle Hamster says:

    Any follow-up after Dana’s comments last week?


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