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Josh Gross: UFC proved me wrong on co-promotion as the best model to produce meaningful fights
By Zach Arnold | March 23, 2011
I didn’t get a chance to listen to this interview from last week with Josh Gross until now, but it’s well worth your time to check it out. (It is a little over 35 minutes long.) There are some interesting points made throughout the interview, including a couple that I think are debatable.
His first point is that UFC buying out Strikeforce is a bigger deal than UFC buying out the PRIDE assets.
“I think, yes, it’s a much bigger deal than the PRIDE deal. The PRIDE deal, at the time, was an important deal and it’s a very big deal, too. But this one, I think, is more important for what it portends to down the road. The Strikeforce deal suggests that there really isn’t a competitor out there where fighters can have someone to go to and legitimately negotiate a deal against, you know, so fighters are now put in a position in the most basic sense they’re negotiating against themselves and their only leverage is, essentially, their talent, their promotional visibility which is largely dictated by the person they’re trying to negotiate with and sort of how they appeal to fans, really. It’s a much more difficult situation for fighters. Some fighters will thrive. The best fighters in the world will do very well and they’ll make a lot of money and, you know what, they probably deserve it. I think what the UFC did by creating this, yeah, it’s not a monopoly, monopoly is the wrong word, people tend to use it. But they definitely have control over the industry in such a way that they’ve created a league and sort of their own sport in a way because while they run under Unified Rules and they do Mixed Martial Arts, it’s really self-contained now.”
I understand his viewpoint that by buying out Strikeforce, UFC eliminated their only threat remaining in the MMA ‘space’ as far as locking up the best talent and killing a potential PPV threat. However, the talent Strikeforce had is, outside of a few fighters, not comparable to what PRIDE presented when they sold their deal to Zuffa. Zuffa buying PRIDE essentially wiped out the most important foreign market (at the time) for MMA and they brought in a lot of talented fighters into the mix for UFC fights. PRIDE ran a PPV in Las Vegas and they were going to do some things but it all proved to be was a smokescreen for Nobuyuki Sakakibara to sell, sell, sell.
Josh’s second point is that UFC buying out Strikeforce finally creates a market scenario that UFC had been claiming they were in but now can truly say they are in.
“It’s the creation of something that they’ve said they were all along but they finally are it is the way that I see it. They always said they were the NFL of Mixed Martial Arts but they are that now, you know, Dana White is the sport, like the de facto commissioner, he’s not just the President of the UFC, you know. There’s a lot of good that come from this. I don’t think, you know, those of us like you and I who want to see the best fighters fight and know who the best fighter in the world is, this is terrific. This accomplishes that, generally, I think. I think almost in every case you’ll see the best fighters coming together in bouts and that’s terrific for fans, it’s much easier for fans to understand now. You know, there was always that brand confusion, people didn’t know what other parts of the sport were and they immediately diminished them as good so I think a lot of great fighters have been fighting under the radar for a long time and now they get that spotlight, which is really positive for them. But the negative on the fighters’ side and, you know, we’ll see where else it shakes out. The consumer, I’m sure, at some point is going to be asked to spend more on PPVs. I mean, that’s just the way this thing works. They’re spending a lot of money and they’re making a lot of money.”
Will fans be willing to spend more on PPVs? I think the price structure is already at a tipping point and can’t go much further.
Josh brings up the opinion that a Zuffa-dominant industry presents more positives than negatives for the fans, even though there is a lot of fear and loathing amongst talent right now.
“I think it’s a positive. It moves the sport to even a higher place, one that’s easier to understand that allows for the best fights to happen. None of that is bad, that’s all very good. It’s just when you start to peel the layers away, what does it actually mean in terms of the person and the company control, the power that they wield… Then you start, you know, a lot of people are scared. A lot of people are scared by this deal, so jI mean just talking to people in the industry, fighters and managers, not all of them clearly. Some of them are very excited and they see this as a great thing. But not all of them do, a lot of them are concerned about the power structure in the sport, how fighters will really sort of have any negotiating power in the way that the format is setup, the percentage of the money going to the UFC versus where the fighters are getting it, there’s lots of issues coming up and even larger ones that I’m not qualified to talk about. I don’t really know that much about anti-trust, how much do we know about anti-trust really? But these are catch-words that we’re going to start hearing more and more and whether they go anywhere, I have no idea. When Lorenzo Fertitta says, you know, they’ve been laying the groundwork for this move, he doesn’t mean just gobbling up promoters or, you know, spreading themselves out on television so they have more negotiating rights on TV, they’ve been lobbying in D.C. for years on anti-trust issues and other issues as well. So, this is what they’ve designed to do all along and then they are prepared for it, it’s going to be difficult for any kind of (lawsuit) to hold up against them, I think, but my sense is people may try.”
The tone of the interview was really interesting because Josh has been as big of a supporter of co-promotion amongst rival promoters (similar to boxing) for as long as I can remember. He has now officially changed his stance.
“As far as where people have been overreacting, I haven’t seen a lot of it so I don’t know exactly what people are saying in terms of the sky is falling. You know, if it’s the usual people who are so invested in promotions that they get caught up and there’s Strikeforce fans that are freaking out, I don’t care about them. It’s like… I mean I don’t. I never understood the attachment to a promotion, really, like it was just so silly to me. I always watch the fighters and I want to see the best guys fight. It’s why when I was and I can say that now I’m wrong, like you don’t need co-promotion to have the best fighters in the world fight, you know, you can have one organization buy everything and that’s what happened, and I’m fine with that and I said that all along. Essentially, I was just looking for a vehicle that was most realistic to seeing the best guys fight one another, it was a tried-and-true practice and, you know, it seemed to work for a long time. But we don’t need that in Mixed Martial Arts apparently and that’s fine.”
There’s a lot that needs to shake out. It will certainly change a lot of dynamics, not just amongst the talent but also amongst media writers. There is a lot of fear out there to not anger the big behemoth if you want access or if you want a payday down the road. MMA Supremacy on Twitter has been spending the last week or so talking about how the media is going to behave in this new business climate and joking about ‘business as usual.’
Topics: Media, MMA, StrikeForce, UFC, Zach Arnold | 21 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
This is the 2011 Josh Gross!! Very different from the Josh Gross of a few years ago that was spoke up “co-promotion” in basically every other “beatdown” podcast. Co-promotion was a proven failure in the sport. From M-1 co-promoting companies into bankruptcy. To Bellator/SF not being able to make a deal. Too many interests at hand to make it happen.
I’m sure the fighter’s are a little worried. Paycheckes aren’t going to come as easy anymore. Fighters are going to have to work for their paychecks more. Guys like Gilbert Melendez and Nick Diaz…. were being overpaid based on what they have done so far. Now they will have to fight much tougher competition to get those sort of paydays. I don’t think that is actually a bad thing. Why should Nick Diaz be paid $150,000 for fighting Cyborg? It really shouldn’t be happening.
At the end of the day…. White & Fertitta are not perfect. They never will be. But they are at least investing money back into the sport. As a fan, that’s the most I can ask for. They are spending lots of money to get MMA sanctioned in Canada and all 50 states. They are spending lots of money to expand internationally and hopefully long term bring in more money for the fighters because of it. The more channels they are on across the world…. The more money that can flow in…. And that is a good thing for the sport.
Will the fighters eventually “fight” back? I honestly think Zuffa has nothing to worry about as long as they don’t get too gready. As long as they take care of their top 20 or so fighters really well…. And have solid enough pay for the rest…. They won’t have many issues. If they start to get greedy and try to short change some of their stars, then it could backfire on them.
So despite not having any competition…. There is still somewhat of a checks and balances system in there. They always have to do enough to keep the fighter base happy.
But keep in mind…. Something like the fighters being independent contractors….. They could be sued by ANY fighter over this. It doesn’t have to be a star. And all it takes is for ONE Champion at some point to speak up and fight it, and the sport could change. If the UFC continues to grow, eventually they will have a break-out star. And if that break out star has a good head on his shoulders…. It doesn’t matter how much leg work Fertitta has done. The power of the press with face to it is almost impossible to overcome. And I think eventually that will happen someday. That fighter could help start a union and Fertitta would be powerless.
As a fan, I love the fact that the sport is FINALLY becoming what it should be. More and more fighters are competing at their optimal weights. More weight classes have been opened up at the highest level. I think it will still take another 3 years for the weight classes to finally smooth out and the UFC will look like it should…. Which is 8 full weight classes, with basiclaly all fighters fighting at the correct weight class, and prospects are pushed through the sport properly without the UFC having to rush them along because they have to sign them before a competitor has to.
There are so many more positives to this then negatives. And as long as the fighters are paid and treated porperly…. then it shouldn’t be an issue for them either. And if they aren’t…. They have to do something about it. Take a stand.
I should also add that eventually all of the “lineal titles” will match up with the UFC titles. And while “lineal titles” have never been too much of a big deal in MMA compared to boxing…. it’s still nice to see.
Somehow, I am not surprised to see a multi-paragraph post from 45 on here.
I’m really tired of you only coming on to whine about 45 Huddle. Add something or GTFO.
Maybe Jonathan is 45 Huddle?
No, I am not 45 Huddle.
And to Michaelthebox….have a good day 🙂
When one sentence can say much.
🙂
Somehow, I am not surprised to see a post that avoids the topic and only comments on me from Jonathan on here.
I am surprised to see that you made a comment to my comment.
I wasn’t saying what you posted was bad and/or wrong, but I knew when I saw the words “Josh Gross” and “Proved me wrong” that you had to be those two comments listed below.
But hey 45 Huddle, you won bud. The UFC is the sport now. You won’t get any grief from me on that point. Good or bad, the UFC is totally in control, and that is the way that you always wanted it right?
I could never figure out why Gross always thought co-promotion was the way of the future…I used to laugh uncontrollably every time I would hear him saying it…about like when Tim Sylvia left the UFC and said he was going to be able to fight 5-6 times a year, etc…lol…see how that turned out.
He only says he is wrong because the UFC bought up all the major players…but even if they had not…there still would be no co-promotion…SF/M-1 Global is a prime exmaple of why.
Wow I can’t believe that Gross finally admitted he’s been wrong this whole time, I actually have gained some respect for the guy again.
Co-promotion has always been a pipedream much like Strikeforce actually challenging the UFC. In the end both were proven to be wrong, to me once PRIDE was sold it basically eliminated the last real competition for them in mma. All of the same things were said then as they are being said now and none of them happened which is why “business as usual” is the perfect phrase to describe where we are today.
I do hope that we are able to move on. I do think that a lot of blogs will fall in line and step with the UFC and their company line. I think a lot of hardcore fans of the UFC view what has happened as them “winning” the forum and comment discussions. That may be the case, and no matter how much someone might dislike that idea, the UFC is the only game in town….heck, they are the only game period.
I just hope that those people who were hardcore UFC fans used some candor in their posts, and the same goes for the web bloggers.
This is as close as you will get to me waving the white flag.
Well the truth is there really is no way to have your cake and eat it to.
(Well, for most of the people at least.)
The only way you will be able to see the best currently active fighters fight each other is by also removing their options to not do it.
Thats kinda good.
But if human history is any indication, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Thats kinda bad.
How easy would it be to turn UFC’s Ultimate™ capability to arrange all the best fights between the best fighters into UFC’s Ultimate™ capability to control the image and access to said fighters and dictate what the “best fights” are.
What “The Fans” really want.
What offers the biggest profit margin between expenditures out and a sustainable price tag coming in.
Get enough nimrods on board receiving life instructions via Dana’s twitter/mind technology and it might come to pass that The Fans™ dont really want pricey matchups like Fedor vs. Brock, they really want Forrest Griffen vs. Brian Stann.
The Fans™ demanded it!
And every fan will have to pay for it, because thats all that there is.
Luckily I cant point at Dana or the Fertittas and call them the most heartless mercenaries in the business world.
They seem to love the sport and the guys who go in there and perform the skills.
But absolute power can do strange things to people.
Just sayin.
I apologize for making a too long post even longer-er, but just to clarify when I said “remove their ability to not do it” I was thinking about Alistair trotting the globe and fighting every half assed scrub and winning every half assed belt and being considered great while avoiding any real conflict.
That was kinda bad.
I was refferning to pressuring team-mates to fight eachother against their will.
That was just bad.
(Can Dana force you to fight your mother or children next?)
Someone really wants to get in the good graces of the UFC. What a kiss ass this guy has turned into. Josh Gross, you outta be ashamed of yourself.
As for business side of things: ome one with big money and/or connections to big money will emerge. That has been the history of the sport.
There will be a segment of fighters that won’t want to do business with Zuffa. There are fans that can’t stand that organization and what they represent.
In some ways, this is a temporary step backwards. Back in the day, guys like Frank Shamrock didn’t see the value of fighting if the paydays were not going to be there and a significant portion of his career was lost because of it. With one company, at this time, controlling the payola, I can see these sorts of issues coming up again; and fans will miss out on “the best facing the best.”
I imagine outside of the paydays getting smaller for most, the slave rules will be that much tougher too. All of this will create an opening for another organization that is more pro-fighter friendly.
The UFC will never have all the top talent. The world is too big for that. All the UFC accomplished with the purchase of Strikeforce is eliminating a threat to their piece of the pie in North America.
The UFC will never have ALL the top talent but since 2007 they’ve been as close as possible. You’re right in the end nothing will change too much there will be another person or people who are delusional enough to think they can just throw money at mma. And some fans and writers will jump on their bandwagon and some fighters will make the mistake of jumping ship. But we’ve seen how that story end and when it does end we will be back here again with the same things being said and business as usual.
The UFC brand name is just too powerful to overcome or compete with..no matter WHO comes in and how deep their pockets are IMO…if a new brand is created…it’ll still be viewed as ‘UFC’ by casuals…
The UFC doesn’t have to have ALL the top talent..just the majority of it.
I just hope they keep the women’s divisions when the inevitable merger happened, and don’t perpetually ignore the other divisions that Zuffa doesn’t promote like Men’s and Women’s 125.
I really do think it makes sense to keep women’s 145 and 135 at least, because keeping monopoly on the top talent in those divisions too reduces the point-of-entry for other upstart promotions. There’s also a lot of depth at women’s 125, or would be if every female fighter fought at their natural weight class, and the top women at 115 could just go up in weight to that.
And obviously Men’s Flyweight needs to get into the fold once fans get fully acclimated to Featherweights and Bantamweights, and the UFC increases their schedule a bit more. They don’t even need to wait for a merger with StrikeForce to do this, and I have a feeling the UFC already has the world’s #1 Flyweight in Joseph Benavidez (who has shown hella charisma when he does get interviews).
They will be bringing in the Flyweights, Ian McCall who beat the ranked number one guy will most likely be on TUF 14 but they should have at least stuck Benavidez on the Facebook prelims, although the fight didn’t look to exciting from the two minutes they showed.
I would like to see them give the Strikeforce challenger series to the Women and if that does well maybe start a WUFC and for those who don’t enjoy seeing Women fight they can avoid it.
You have the right idea. I don’t care if Zuffa does it or not. But let the females have their own league. Have all female cards. See if they can sink or swim on their own merits.
Is there really that much talent at women’s 125? There seems to be more five times as much talent at men’s 125 despite all the money for men being at 135 (relatively speaking).