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Fox Sports: "Zach Arnold's Fight Opinion site is one of the best spots on the Web for thought-provoking MMA pieces."

« | Home | »

Can WEC 51 get more than 500,000 viewers tonight on Versus?

By Zach Arnold | September 30, 2010

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Tonight is the fight that Manny Gamburyan has been asking for since beating Mike Brown and that’s a shot against Jose Aldo. Aldo’s been training with fellow world-beater Marlon Sandro. The odds are stacked against Manny, but I expect a explosive main event tonight. The question is whether many fans will be watching the event on TV (or not).

The WEC 51 card in Broomfield, on paper, looks fantastic. 9 PM EST start time on Versus. One fight that I’m not looking forward to is Jamie Varner vs. Donald Cerrone. Cerrone, who’s foul-mouthed sleazy rant on Tapout radio caused a stir, thinks that he can beat Varner. I’m with Jamie — every time Cerrone opens his mouth, it’s like being in a time machine in the sport. WEC/Zuffa got lucky that GLAAD or other gay political groups didn’t pick up on Cerrone’s comments.

Greg Beacham of The Associated Press ran a profile article on the news wire yesterday about Zhang Tiequan, who will be fighting on the WEC under card tonight against Pablo Garza (who lost an eliminator fight on The Ultimate Fighter this season).

The Big Lead previews tonight’s show.

Other news & notes

Frankie Edgar vs. Gray Maynard will be part of the Anderson Silva/Vitor Belfort UFC card on New Year’s Day. If they get slotted in the semi-main event slot, I would say that the promotion would be making the right call.

After Nik Lentz killed the Boston crowd with his cage smothering of Andre Winner, Winner has been awarded a main card fight for UFC’s November show in Germany. Dave Meltzer reports that a little under 4,000 tickets have been sold for the event so far (headlined by Nate Marquardt vs. Yushin Okami).

Cole Miller wants a fight with Takanori Gomi next.

Strikeforce gives Paul Daley a good opening fight for the promotion this December against Scott Smith. Of course, Daley is a Welterweight and Smith has been fighting at 185. It’s Strikeforce, after all.

Regarding the Strikeforce show on October 9th at San Jose Arena (HP Pavilion), I would say the heat going in is tepid. Noons and Diaz have gotten the spotlight, but nothing about their past in Elite XC has really been mentioned in the press. Sarah Kaufman is getting semi-main event billing. Josh Thomson a couple of months ago said on CSN Bay Area that his fight was going to be in the semi-main event slot, but since his opponent was announced as JZ Calvan the talk of it being semi-main has died down.

Mike Tyson comments on James Toney’s MMA debut. I thought it was funny to see Tyson on The Ultimate Fighter yesterday. BTW, last night’s episode was not a very entertaining show. Michael Johnson’s fight was… well… the less said, the better.

Tonight for Bellator features the semi-finals of their women’s 115-pound tournament. Megumi Fujii vs. Lisa Ward and Jessica Aguilar vs. Zoila Frausto. Zoila struggled to make weight, so it will be interesting to see if she will come into the cage dehydrated or tired.

New York Newsday has an article hidden behind a firewall this morning, but the essence of the piece is that Zuffa is supporting Andrew Cuomo in the New York Governor’s race over Carl Paladino. Justin Klein has more on the politics of MMA in the NY Governor’s race.

Andrei Arlovski is off the K-1 10/2 Seoul event, which is happening this weekend. Talk about an event going under the radar.

Roy Jones Jr.’s next fight (scheduled for next week) has been canceled. He was doing another of his mixed boxing/MMA cards in Pensacola.

Topics: Media, MMA, StrikeForce, UFC, WEC, Zach Arnold | 45 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

45 Responses to “Can WEC 51 get more than 500,000 viewers tonight on Versus?”

  1. 45 Huddle says:

    1) Can the WEC get more then 500,000 viewers? I bet they get 450,000 and fall short. Personally, I hope their ratings continue to tank so they have no choice but to combine the WEC with the UFC and get the eventual merger over with ASAP.

    2) The rumor is that Edgar/Maynard is New Years Day. Silva/Belfort is on Super Bowl Weekend. At least that is the rumor going around. They say Silva wants more time to recover from his ribs being injured. I’m not so negative on Edgar/Maynard 2 like many people are. It’s #1 vs. #3 in the world (in my opinion). And Edgar already beat #2 in Penn, so it’s the best possible match-up. I think a fight like this really starts to seperate the fans of the SPORT of MMA and the fans of the ENTERTAINMENT of MMA.

    3) The biggest untalked about issue in MMA right now is how Strikeforce is doing some serious cherry picking on the free agent market. They avoid wrestlers like the plague. They buried Jay Hieron on their undercard. They avoided Antonio McKee when the UFC had no interest in him. But they are quick to sign guys like Paul Daley who have a more crowd pleasing style. What this does is make Strikeforce into a mini-Pride. This is exactly what Pride did back in the day. They cherry picked exciting fighters and it gave fans an unbalanced look at who was the best in the sport at the time.

    Imagine how unstoppable Thiago Alves would look if the UFC didn’t have any wrestlers. It’s basically why Nick Diaz looks so great in Strikeforce. They purposely kepy Hieron away from him and then gave a Lightweight (Noons) a title shot. This is also why I laugh when people combine UFC fighters in the rankings with Strikeforce fighters. It’s 2 completely different leagues. The UFC has every sort of style possible. Strikeforce purposely goes the Pride method and avoids the wrestlers.

    4) I don’t get Bellator anymore on my local sports channel. They just stopped carrying it mid-season. While the first few cards I saw this season were mostly junk, I didn enjoy Warren/Soto. And I was looking forward to Alvarez/Huerta (for what it is) and Askren/Good. What worries me about Bellator is that they CONTINUE to sign fighters despite all signs pointing to them being on a downward spiral.

    • The Gaijin says:

      “I think a fight like this really starts to seperate the fans of the SPORT of MMA and the fans of the ENTERTAINMENT of MMA.”

      That’s like saying a basketball fan isn’t a true basketball fan if they didn’t like the Spurs vs. Pistons for the NBA finals every year or the New Jersey Devils/Ravens incredibly boring defence-centric championship borefests. Every SPORT and its FANS can insert a particular style/team/athlete that might be “the best” or “best game-planner” or “best-whatever” and they still don’t like watching them/wouldn’t pay money to see them. Such a joke.

      • 45 Huddle says:

        Yes, NBA Finals like the Spurs vs. Pistons show who the real fans and who are not.

        Look, when a team is doing bad, you don’t see half the number of jersey’s in public. Attendence is down and seats can be empty. The real fans stick around because they love to watch the SPORT. The fare weather fans stick around because either a team is popular or a fighter is wildly exciting.

        “Boring” fighters and losing sports clubs really do show the real fanbase.

        • The Gaijin says:

          That’s ridiculous…absolutely ridiculous.

        • 45 Huddle says:

          No it’s not. Some people are fans of a sport. Others just want to be part of the celebration. It’s understandable. Purely human nature. It’s why Soccer is popular internationally and American Football is popular in the United Stated. People want to be part of the big group cheering. A lot of it has to do with influences on a person.

        • The Gaijin says:

          You’re totally out to lunch.

          You’re saying that paying fans, be it either paying real dollars to watch in attendance or with their time on TV, aren’t fans if they chose not to watch a particular team or athlete? Talk about trying to tilt the field to make an argument…whether or not they are a fan of the sport has little correlation to the question of why would someone waste their finite resources to watch something that is not going to provide them any entertainment.

          In many cases, they’re still going to follow the sport by choosing to watch the games or players that excite/entertain/give them the best value for their time/money or catching highlights or important games. Why would you WASTE your money watching the 13th game of the Cleveland Browns season when they’re 2-10 and playing a terrible style of game.

          Whatever…you’ll try to pull this BS purist/true fan rhetoric to fit your argument, but you’ve got no clue what you’re talking about.

      • Light23 says:

        I’m not sure why people would bitch about Edgar vs Maynard anyway. I watched the 1st fight recently to see how it went, and it was pretty exciting. It doesn’t necessarily follow that part 2 will also be good, but why do people assume it’s going to be horrible?

  2. David M says:

    PRIDE had a lot of wrestlers; Kerr, Coleman, Erikson, Fujita, etc were all boring wrestlers who were not buried on the undercard of Pride shows.

    I don’t disagree that Strikeforce wants to put on exciting fights, but they don’t have the name-brand value that the UFC has (which allows them to have more wrestlers and better-caliber fighters), so Strikeforce has to put on exciting fights or the organization will die.

    Also, given that Shields and Mo were their champions going into the last CBS event, it seems a bit disingenuous to suggest that Strikeforce totally shuns world-class LnP.

    • 45 Huddle says:

      Kerr & Coleman looked the part. And Coleman also participated in a work which probably pleased Pride. Fujita was Japanese. They had Sherk & Okami at Bushido 2. Both won. Neither got invited back. There was certainly much more emphasis on the exciting nature then the sports nature.

      And Shields was inherited from EliteXC and they refused to promote him at every step of the way, basically forcing him to make the decision to go to the UFC. They barely even used his name in order to hype up the event. And the only reason he was in the main event was because Fedor was playing games and Henderson was his opponent.

      I understand Strikeforce trying to gain fans. But why is Nick Diaz #5 in the world in the latest BE rankings when he has no threat of fighting a wrestler for a long time? It makes no sense. Strikeforce can go the “exciting” route if they want. But their fighters should not benefit from it. Strikeforce is creating a false reality, and the MMA Media buys into it instead of being exposing it for what it is. Hence the problem and why more MMA websites need to be discussing it.

      • David M says:

        Who do you think at 170 beats Diaz? Sherdog’s September rankings have Diaz at 9 and Dan Hardy at 4. When I think of guys at 170 who could beat Diaz, I think of GSP/Kos/Fitch/Alves. None of those guys are sure bets though; Koscheck has shown that he is susceptible to getting KO’d, Fitch almost got KTFO against Mike Pierce, GSP is terrified of getting hit and isn’t as good of a grappler as Diaz, and Alves is slow and gasses.

        Do you really think Dan Hardy is better than Nick Diaz? Kampmann? Paolo Thiago? I think Diaz beats all of those guys.

        • 45 Huddle says:

          1) Hardy has no business being in the Top 5 and I’ve said that before.

          2) Rankings are based on who you have beaten and Diaz hasn’t beaten anybody in the Top 10. The BE rankings are just a complilation of all the major rankings out there.

          3) GSP, Koscheck, Fitch, Alves, & Shields (I know they are teammates) would all beat Diaz. Kampmann would likely beat Diaz. He would have a hard time with even guys like Ellenberger, Hathaway, Sanchez (rematch), Hendricks, Hardy, & Pierce.

          The fact that you are even putting Diaz’s name into the mix with the BEST UFC Welterweights and not the MIDDLE TIER guys shows you are even buying into the hype. Sure he looks invincible in Strikeforce. It’s also because there is a lack of talent for him to fight there. Remember who Diaz is. He is the guy who couldn’t get out of the middle of the pack because of his lack of wrestling. He is the same guy who got outstruct by a more technical striker like Noons.

          He might have improved, but his style still has many holes. He has ZERO business being discussed with the elite of the division.

        • David M says:

          I think Diaz beats Shields. I don’t think it is unreasonable to rank Nick anywhere from 5-10. I don’t disagree with you that he isn’t facing competition as good as the competition in the UFC, but that doesn’t change my opinion that he is vastly improved physically to the fighter he was 4 years ago, and that skill for skill, he matches up well with everyone. He doesn’t have great takedowns, but he is a lot stronger than he used to be, has crazy jiu-jitsu, and is a better striker than most, with better cardio than almost everyone.

        • 45 Huddle says:

          Nick Diaz’s weakness’s might have gotten better, but you just can’t transform your fighting style.

          Look at his brother Nate. He has suffered from the same problems as Nick did in the UFC. He has a hard time going up against the better wrestlers and was incapable of breaking out into the elite of the division.

          It’s not a shock that Nate is looked at as a good, exciting fighter that isn’t elite. Nick, with his same style (and probably a little better), would still be in that same category.

          I know you disagree with me, but history has shown that the Diaz brothers cannot beat the top tier guys. Until that is proven otherwise, my opinion is much more based on reality then yours is.

        • The Gaijin says:

          “Remember who Diaz is. He is the guy who couldn’t get out of the middle of the pack because of his lack of wrestling.”

          He was also like 22 years old and lost a string of very close, competitive decisions – not to mention was on a 2 fight win streak and left on his own accord, they wanted to keep him. You act like he got his ass spanked all the way out – but I’m sure it suits your argument so, hey, whatever.

        • 45 Huddle says:

          Who said he got his assed spanked. And I’m fully aware he went out with wins.

          I am also fully aware that he could never get over the hump. And there hasn’t been any wins…. Or anything in his game…. That has changed enough to dispute this.

        • klown says:

          I have Hardy at #16 and Diaz at #20 because, super-controversially, my rankings are based on wins rather than hypotheticals. (It’s not my fault Serra beat GSP and then lost to Hughes and Lytle!)

          1. St-Pierre
          2. Fitch
          3. Alves
          4. Hughes
          5. Lytle
          6. Serra
          7. Kampmann
          8. Thiago
          9. Koscheck
          10. Hathaway
          11. Sanchez
          12. Parisyan
          13. Shields
          14. Daley
          15. Condit
          16. Hardy
          17. Swick
          18. Hallman
          19. Saunders
          20. Diaz

        • 45 Huddle says:

          Nice list klown,

          And to further the point…. Nick Diaz is 0-2 against that list of fighters.

          Which proves my point. He doesn’t have the wins to even get into the Top 10, especially the Top 5.

        • Light23 says:

          Zzzzz… enough with the Diaz hype. He was a solid fighter in the UFC but not elite. Arsing off to Strikeforce and stealing Thomas Denny’s lunch money does not qualify you as a top 10 fighter. Take whatever his ranking was when he left the UFC, and drop it by about 5 due to lack of quality opponents and other guys taking his spot.

          But of course, we can’t look at his ranking realistically. He’s the “Strikeforce champion” and is beating up fighters in Strikeforce, so obviously that means he’s good, right? Wrong. Not all promotions are created equal, not all opposition is equal, and just because Diaz is running over Strikeforce does not mean he qualifies as a top 10 fighter.

          Stop looking at a big fish in a small pond and comparing it to the sharks dominating the ocean.

      • Mark says:

        #1, Remember how bad they got burned with the wrestling clinics of King Mo and Jake Shields stinking up the joint. They’re probably scared to get back on the wrestling horse after that traumatic experience. They haven’t been invited back to CBS and they’re probably scared shitless if they have another show like that Showtime would consider axing them if they don’t space out the wrestling clinics.

        #2, Just off the top of my head without Googling it, PRIDE had for wrestlers who were at the top of the cards (I’m only counting people who were in the main event or co-main event off the top of my head): Henderson, Fujita, Sakuraba, Coleman, Kerr, Randleman, Barnett, Rampage, Waterman, Frye. And that’s just off the top of my head, I’m sure there’s way more.

        The thing was, more than “PRIDE purposely nixed wrestlers so Wanderlei and Cro Cop could get the KOs”, amateur wrestling isn’t in their culture as heavily as it is in the West. They have Judo and featured Judokas way more than UFC does. So is UFC burying Judo in a conspiracy? Or do they just not care about it because it isn’t a popular discipline here?

        #3 Why are you blaming Strikeforce for a stupid ranking list they have nothing to do with?

        • 45 Huddle says:

          Barnett & Rampage were not wrestlers. They might of had some wrestling background, but neither are considered wrestlers by much of any standard.

          As for Judo, when it comes to control, it’s the poor man’s wrestling. When it comes to submissions, it’s the poor man’s BJJ. Never has Judo, even in the Pride days, produced major contenders.

          Out of the 8 Grand Prix Champions, the only guy to have a Judo background was Kazuo Misaki, and he lost in the semi-finals. Additionally, none of their regular champions were Judo guys either.

          So Pride might of had many Judo guys participating in their events, but fighters coming from that art never materialized. Which is why it’s not a shock that there isn’t that many Judo guys in the UFC. It’s just not a good martial art for MMA.

          As for SF and Rankings. I wasn’t blaming SF for how people are ranking them. I was blaming SF for cherry picking their talent. And I was blaming the MMA Media for turning a blind eye to it and still ranking fighters as if they are fighting the full gammit of fighting styles.

          Two different blames doing on there. You are mixing them up.

        • The Gaijin says:

          “Barnett & Rampage were not wrestlers.”

          LOL – WHUT? Too funny – the same Rampage that we saw all those high school (All-state) and college wrestling videos and testimonials of on the UFC Primetime shows…? Oh no, ok – the other one that only became a wrestler in the UFC despite his previous amateur background and the fact that he’s basically a boxer and much less of a wrestler now than he was in KOTC and PRIDE…my bad!

        • 45 Huddle says:

          Quinton wrestled in TN, which is not known for High School wrestling. It’s like making a deal of a All New England High School wrestler…. Which everybody knows is a joke.

          And Josh Barnett was a catch wrestler, which is more submission based then an amateur wrestler with collegiate experience. Really two different balls of wax.

          And I didn’t even mention Don Frye who was so jacked up on steroids by that point that he had 3 minutes of cardio.

          And you still avoid the main point… Which is that Pride really avoided many wrestlers or wrestling types. Sean Sherk wasn’t invited back. Neither was Yushin Okami. They selectively disallowed certain styles in order to increase the excitement level of their events.

          How can those guys win and not go on? It would be like the UFC not renewing Sean Sherk’s contract because he was grappling too much.

  3. Strikeforce can cherry pick talent like any other promoter. Certainly is guilty of it too. I personally don’t see anything particularly revelatory about it that makes it noteworthy. They can’t sign everyone who isn’t in the UFC just because, if that’s what 45 is asking for. I guess you could color it as an observation?

    I don’t care who Daley fights. He was grossly overrated from the Kampmann win and still is to some. I said it before the Koscheck fight and still now – people ignore what he did just before the UFC (which was nothing great) because it was convenient then. He’s the same guy as 3 years ago.

    UFC bombing in Germany? What’s new. They must have signed a contract guaranteeing a number of shows more than 1. Poor guys.

  4. Mark says:

    Barnett & Rampage were not wrestlers. They might of had some `wrestling background, but neither are considered wrestlers by much of any standard.

    Because they didn’t have either NCAA contention nor Olympic trial experience they weren’t wrestlers? Uh, that sure looked like wrestling heavy offense to me. The difference is, unlike most of UFC’s newer crop of wrestlers, they added to their wrestling backgrounds instead of pure top control fighting. It’s shocking a wrestler would do that, I know.

    As for Judo, when it comes to control, it’s the poor man’s wrestling. When it comes to submissions, it’s the poor man’s BJJ. Never has Judo, even in the Pride days, produced major contenders.

    Out of the 8 Grand Prix Champions, the only guy to have a Judo background was Kazuo Misaki, and he lost in the semi-finals. Additionally, none of their regular champions were Judo guys either.

    So Pride might of had many Judo guys participating in their events, but fighters coming from that art never materialized. Which is why it’s not a shock that there isn’t that many Judo guys in the UFC. It’s just not a good martial art for MMA.

    `

    You’re not even addressing what my point was. My point was the Japanese went out of their way to hire Judokas because, regardless if you respect it or not, that is their top grappling discipline and national sport. In the West, the top grappling discipline is wrestling. If you want to sign a bunch of Japanese fighters, you look for Judokas. If you want to sign a bunch of American fighters, you look for wrestlers. And PRIDE clearly cared about pleasing Japan first and America third (behind Korea.)

    Another thing you’re over looking is, of the top wrestlers between 1998-2006 that they didn’t sign, most of them were signed with UFC. Tito, Couture, Lindland, Hughes were the top wrestlers they should have signed. But nobody wanted Lindland (even UFC) anywhere because he’s boring as hell, Tito chickened out when they wanted him for a Wanderlei rematch, Hughes was a UFC loyalist, and the only times Couture was free to go he looked washed up and they weren’t going to pay him what he wanted.

    As for SF and Rankings. I wasn’t blaming SF for how people are ranking them. I was blaming SF for cherry picking their talent. And I was blaming the MMA Media for turning a blind eye to it and still ranking fighters as if they are fighting the full gammit of fighting styles.

    Two different blames doing on there. You are mixing them up.

    Yes, they probably are dreading having to have a bunch of top control decision fighters on the show. But why wouldn’t they? They aren’t the UFC with enough of a fanbase to never fear going below 300K buys, they can’t afford to have a UFC 118 stinker since their last wrestler snoozefest ensured they won’t be back on CBS any time soon and they can’t afford for Showtime ratings to drop. Can you blame them? It’s not just a matter of being sports or entertainment, it’s a business. Until you build yourself up to the point where the fans will be interested in you no matter what you put out you have to care about hooking them. The UFC did as well.

    And Diaz is a champion. Regardless of complaints about Mousasi never beating anybody ranked, Lawal not having enough wins, and Overeem’s big wins being generally in K-1, the rankings have always ranked Strikeforce champions in the top 10. And regardless if that is right or wrong, who gives a crap? It means nothing.

    • 45 Huddle says:

      Rampage wrestled in TN. Hardly a hotbed for wrestling. Barnett was a CATCH Wrestler. I think he might of had some Greco experience as well. He was hardly a good wrestler by any stretch of the idea….

      As for the Judo guys…. You still don’t get it. Why would the UFC actively sign Judo guys if most guys coming from that area of expertise have little to no chance of having any impact in the UFC? They don’t weight cut enough. They don’t grapple good enough. There is nothing about Judo that equates to MMA success. Even today there just aren’t many good Judo guys in MMA. It’s like asking the UFC to find a needle in a haystack.

      As for the grapplers:

      1) They had Sherk and let him go.

      2) They had Okami and let him do.

      3) Couture could have easily been brought over soon after the UFC guys bought the company and he was still fighting in Japan.

      4) Pride was the ones who chickened out bringing their champion to the UFC. They refused to let Wanderlei fight. The UFC brough over Liddell. Get your history correct.

      5) Lindland could have been brought over.

      Doesn’t matter what their reasoning is. The fact is that they obviously were avoiding top notch talent due to their boring style. They were looking for exciting good guys, not looking to find out who the best was. And that brings on a distorted sense of reality in MMA.

      “And Diaz is a champion. Regardless of complaints about Mousasi never beating anybody ranked, Lawal not having enough wins, and Overeem’s big wins being generally in K-1, the rankings have always ranked Strikeforce champions in the top 10. And regardless if that is right or wrong, who gives a crap? It means nothing.”

      Above this paragraph you say Strikeforce should be about business and entertainment. But then in this paragraph you talk about their title belts meaning something.

      Nick Diaz is not a Top 10 guy. He has not beaten a Top 10 fighter and has no business being there. Not fighting the best segment of competition in his weight division basically means it’s going to be real hard for him to make it into a credible Top 10 for a long long time.

      And who cares if Strikeforce champions have always been ranked. Doesn’t mean they should be.

      The rankings do mean something. They are perfect snapshot of the people who cover the sport and their views upon it. You can act as if “they are only rankings”…. But the reality is that the majority of guys writing about MMA have a slanted view and are covering the sport based on it. They are not critically looking at a guy like Diaz not beating anybody worthy of being in the Top 10. Instead they just say: “Hey, he looks exciting and dominant, let’s put him at #5 in the world.”

      MMA needs a better crop of writers and not the sorry pathetic ones they currently have.

      • The Gaijin says:

        “4) Pride was the ones who chickened out bringing their champion to the UFC. They refused to let Wanderlei fight. The UFC brough over Liddell. Get your history correct.”

        This is like saying UFC is chickening out on bringing Lesnar over to fight Fedor or Overeem. Or Penn/Edgar to fight Melendez.

        Why on earth would PRIDE, who as hard as it is to imagine, was the far bigger dog in the fight – let it’s biggest gaijin draw and 205 champion go fight on a UFC ppv, in a UFC cage under UFC rules in a different continent? Liddell had the “opportunity” to fight him if he made it to the same bracket – obviously the deck was going to be stacked against that, but you’re kidding yourself if you think Dana would do any different…he won’t even let someone fight for him unless they sign away franchising rights to their likeness FOREVER.

        • 45 Huddle says:

          1) Because Liddell was brought over to Pride first.

          2) They said okay to the fight and allowed Wanderlei into the UFC Octagon to hype the fight. Then they backed out.

          That’s why….

        • Mark says:

          They backed out because Dana asked for Wanderlei to be under a multi-fight UFC deal. PRIDE did not ask for Liddell to be under a multi-fight deal, he fought a qualifying match and then his two tournament fights. And they were also very friendly to the UFC the whole time, whereas Dana badmouthed PRIDE the entire negotiation process as he does to everybody.

          Why would you want to give your champion away to a contract to a guy trashing your product instead of promoting it like you did their’s? They put over UFC HUGE. Do you think UFC would have done a skit where Wanderlei came out and kiddingly roughed up Joe Rogan or a guest fighter announcer like Bonnar or Florian until they admitted PRIDE was awesome? Never. The best they would have done would be Rogan would run down their biggest wins as they walk out.

          Of course they didn’t take that deal. If the roles were reversed and Sakakibara went out and said “UFC sucks, they’re overrated and we’re going to destroy their champion but keep him for a few more fights.” he never would have gone.

          And in hindsight 2003 Grand Prix mixing meant nothing for either company. Saying Rampage beat Liddell and Nogueira beat Rodriguez but looked terrible meant nothing in Japan. And even fewer people bought PRIDE shows than bought UFC shows in America so that cross promotion meant nothing and all of the guys ended up losing in the end anyway.

        • 45 Huddle says:

          1) It was never reported that the UFC asked Wanderlei to sign a multi fight deal.

          2) The UFC loaned out Liddell for 3 fights. Rodriguez for 1. And Pride never loaned out one fighter.

          Pride was promising one thing and never coming through. The proof is in the one sided fighter trading.

      • Mark says:

        Yes, PRIDE ran differently than the UFC does. They liked finishers and not fight icers for JD’s. That is obvious in their judging rules. In UFC, Rodriguez would have beaten Nogueira. But in PRIDE his top controlling meant nothing to their judges. So Sherk and Okami coming in under the Bushido ranks, which was like a PRIDE casting couch instead of a real PRIDE show, did not impress the kind of fighters PRIDE wanted. Their Bushido loving culture doesn’t tolerate laying & praying (unless it is on a Gracie member to be called a draw of laying to kick Ali in the legs.)

        I don’t know why Randy chose RINGS over PRIDE. But he never said “PRIDE turned me down” to my knowledge. He probably chose RINGS over PRIDE because back then in early 1999 PRIDE was very financially unstable despite the big crowds that is the only thing people remember. RINGS was smaller scale but very solid and ran within their means and Randy may have thought since he left one financially unstable promotion that he didn’t want to risk getting into another one. Especially one in another country with another culture where you don’t discuss money and who knows what underworld the money was coming from.

        I already discussed the Wand situation.

        Nobody really wants Lindland. He’s got credentials, but he is not worth a penny because he doesn’t draw, he’s got like 3 fans not in his immediate family.

        And I never said Strikeforce belts mean anything. Strikeforce anything means absolutely nothing. They’re a joke. Their titles are about as meaningful as a replica belt you can buy for $300 online. I agree Nick Diaz is not a top 10 Welterweight and all the top 10 Welterweights are in the UFC. I think Nick is incredibly talented, but he can’t beat any top tier UFC WW.

        • Mark says:

          It was never reported that the UFC asked Wanderlei to sign a multi fight deal.

          I distinctly remember in the epic argument between Dana and Jerry Millen on the Scott Ferrall radio show Millen said Dana refused to let Wanderlei into UFC without signing a multi-fight deal and Dana did not deny it.

          I think all the mp3s of it are dead. But here’s a piece from the write up on it from this fine site:

          “There’s one detail to the negotiations that Jerry and Dana let’s slip early in the rukus that doesn’t get much emphasis, but is apparently one of the major keys to breakdown. Pride wants Wanderlei to fight for one fight and Dana wants Wanderlei for three.”

          And Dana did not deny it. All he had to say in return was “Cro Cop killed him” and “PRIDE will be out of business in 3 months.” That was the beginning of the “Dana is an insufferable asshole instead of the cool friendly guy he was a year ago” days.

    • 45 Huddle says:

      Here is a perfect way of explaining how bad the MMA Media is.

      Imagine if a baseball writer wrote the following paragraph:

      “Derek Jeter is not one of the Top 10 best hitting shortstops. While hitting .280, there are currently 8 shortstops in the American League who have a better averages. Additionally, there are 5 guys in AAA Ball who have a better average as well. Which would mean Jeter is the 16th best Shortstop in baseball.”

      Sounds stupid doesn’t it. Putting down Jeter based on a minor leaguers batting average. That minor leaguer is competing against lesser pitching. Therefore, that batting average shouldn’t mean half as much.

      Yet, that is EXACTLY what the MMA Media continue to do. Nick Diaz is fighting against lesser competition and is being talked about, covered, and treated like he is beating top tier guys. It’s pathetically bad.

      Diaz is beating lesser competition and should be treated as such. He has no business in the Top 10 discussion until he does otherwise.

      • Mark says:

        Anybody can buy a website. There’s so many MMA websites anybody can be hired somewhere as a writer. Practically nobody gets paid for “MMA Journalism”. It’s a hobby. It’s people who are nothing more than fans with a keyboard opining. It means absolutely nothing. The rankings mean nothing, the fight reviews mean nothing, the columns mean nothing. It’s all one big internet fanboy writing community and nothing more. Nobody has ever been fired because of something a journalist said. Nobody lost their spot in the company because of something a journalist said. So if you are that aggravated by them, then just stop reading.

        • 45 Huddle says:

          Sure anybody can buy a website. But people do get MMA News online. And those websites can certainly change peoples perceptions. Claiming this is only a “hobby” doesn’t justify the messages being sent from these websites.

          Sherdog makes money. I bet a few others do as well. Just because they seem like small websites, don’t automatically assume there is no value in them. TechCrunch.com, which nobody would ever assume is worth very much just sold. Rumor is between $25 Million to $40 Million to AOL.

          These are fighters livings they are dealing with. You have a guy at Sherdog like Rios who is so bad that McCorkle calls him out on his BS a few days after his fight. Shane Carwin, who is a pretty educated man, see’s how bad they are and completely dogs them by ranking them himself.

          MMA articles reach the front page of Yahoo! It sometimes gets the front page of ESPN. It’s not like nobody is reading the content.

        • Mark says:

          1) What is the percentage how many MMA fans go online? Probably close to the figure of pro wrestling fans who read the Observer or Torch. I’d love to see a polling of fans going to a UFC show on how many go to any non UFC.com site often if at all.

          2) Sherdog news stories are not anti-UFC. No MMA site hater here has ever been able to point out to me a news story (not a Josh Gross column on SI which is an op-ed and not a news story or one of their podcasts which is no different than a sports radio show where they give opinions) that was anti-UFC. They are not going to be trashing the thing that gives them the most page hits. Certainly they’re still pissed at Dana’s treatment of them, but they’re smart enough to contain it.

          3) TechCrunch does not compare to any MMA site, even Sherdog. That was a very hot site to those heavy into technology, a bajillion dollar industry versus a site about a niche sport that sells t-shirts and DVDs.

          4) If Sherdog had any power to sway public opinion: why isn’t Strikeforce bigger? Why doesn’t Tyson Griffin get huge standing ovations at Buffer’s announcement? Why did PRIDE go out of business? Why wasn’t Josh Barnett re-hired in 2007? Answer: nobody outside of the MMA Bubble gives a crap about what their show hosts think.

          5) Fighters are the biggest marks for themselves and spend lots of time Googling themselves. They probably jump on boards under assumed names to defend themselves. Did Carwin lose his job over something they said? No? Then he’s just being a mark for himself online and needs to remember he’s a fighter and they’re some online jackoff and get over it like real athletes do.

          6) Dude, Yahoo is up UFC’s bunghole in a major way. Iole is the mouthpiece of the UFC online. Dave Meltzer also never negatively writes about them.

        • edub says:

          What are you guy’s even arguing about?

  5. edub says:

    Umm:
    – Pride was damn heavy on wrestlers. Sakuraba had one of the best amateur backgrounds in the whole promotion.
    – Rampage and Barnett were both looked at as wrestlers.
    – Diaz should not be ranked in the top 5. His best win in the past 2 years is either Scott Smith or Frank Shamrock, and that wasn’t even at 170. That should say something. Same reason Hardy should have never been top 5.
    – I thought the fight last night between Johnson and “English” was pretty good and exciting. What are we supposed to expect from fights on the show? The competitors on the show are no longer blue chip prospects sso that’s exactly the type of fight you would expect. Hating on the guys for fighting at a certain skill level doesn’t make since, and it discredits their effort.
    – Why is Cole Miller calling out anyone?
    – If the Smith-Daley fight is at 170 I don’t like it. Smith looked lethargic at 180 when he fought Diaz, and to see him go all the way down to 170… well I just don’t like it.
    – I don’t like the idea of Winner getting a main card slot now. Sure Lentz fought a very boring fight, but Winner had plenty of openings in the 1st round, and a few in the second that he didn’t capitalize on. Lentz wore on him and broke him down in the 3rd. Winner lost. I don’t see why anybody besides the fans should be pissed off about that fight.
    – The Bellator card seems pretty good with the Ward-Fujii match being there. Too bad no one will see it.
    – If Manny can keep Jose on the defensive he can wear on him, and take away his spirit. Althuogh it isn’t likely it could happen.

  6. Coyote says:

    Just, to everyone here, Smith anounces some months ago he’s going down to welter.

    And i just wait for a fight betwen Diaz and Daley, Shit talk avalanche.

    I dont see the WEC getting good ratings today.

    The Germany Card, looks (is) just a mess. And plus, is expensive (Speaking of German’s).

    Zach: You dont say nothing about the free streaming of the K-1 MAX. ¿You got some info?

  7. David M says:

    I can’t believe Garcia-Hominick was a split decision. Hominick literally dominated 97% of the fight. I am repulsed that any judge gave Leonard Garcia even 1 round.

  8. EJ says:

    I can’t believe that Hominick won, i’ll have to go look at it again but Garcia threw and landed more in all rounds. Then I go on the net and everyone is talking about how Hominick dominated the fight and i’m left wondering what the hell people are on.

    • The Gaijin says:

      I’m wonder what you’re on…

      Garcia did his normal M.O. – regional level brawling, winging haymakers from his back pocket and catching nothing but air and counter-punches. Hell he got staggered and dropped several times. I’d love to see a CompuStrike on the his %-age of actual strikes landed, because it’s not going to be pretty. Hominick put on a clinic against a much loved, but poorly skilled fighter.

    • edub says:

      You gotta watch it again EJ. Garcia landed probably 5% of his strikes in that fight, and got picked apart. It was 30-27 IMO.

  9. mma clothing says:

    WEC needs to be put together with UFC, WEC is miles better at the moment and not getting the coverage it deserves!

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