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If Josh Koscheck beats GSP, will that solve the “Jon Fitch problem” in the Welterweight division?
By Zach Arnold | August 10, 2010
In that article, you can read the quotes Dana White made about how he thinks Jon Fitch has softened his stance on fighting Josh Koscheck should Koscheck beat Georges St. Pierre in December. Also, it’s clear that Dana’s position on Jon Fitch being the #1 contender in the Welterweight division is now slightly… nuanced.
Steve Cofield & Kevin Iole of Yahoo Sports talked about a recent conversation Dave Meltzer had with Jon Fitch in which Fitch made it clear that his stance on fighting Josh Koscheck has not changed. The dilemma is what happens if Shields has a ‘boring’ performance against Martin Kampmann in October?
Transcript can be seen in full-page mode.
STEVE COFIELD: “Hey, I wanted to get into the Jon Fitch fight because I think we talked about this being a great card, but that fight, again, it was Jon Fitch, you know, winning, dominating, top-control… (Kevin Iole yawns on camera) yeah, I can see it, a little bit of a yawner. It’s his fifth straight decision win and I got to tell you, one of the first things I thought of was, I don’t know if he gets the next title shot against the GSP/Koscheck winner.”
KEVIN IOLE: “Yeah. It was interesting. I think going into that fight, no doubt about it, and you look, I mean, it’s an incredible record he has. He’s won five in a row, he’s won 21 out of 22, the only loss to Georges St. Pierre and yet there’s a big debate in the community whether he should get a title shot. That tells you that, you know, he’s just not, you know, he’s not an exciting fighter and people are, you know, this is a business and people pay to see you fight and, you know, he’s just not taking it to the next level. That’s a disappointment. I think Jon’s accomplishments are great, he’s beating great people, it’s just not in an attractive way and it kind of, like a boxing version of Cory Spinks, I mean at his prime you know Cory was one that would beat you backwards, you know, I mean, you know he would just make you look bad but he wouldn’t do anything to penalize you or maybe to a greater degree, Pernell Whittaker, and that’s, you know, kind of what Jon Fitch does, you know he just kind of takes you down, you know, he kind of grabs your back, he doesn’t go for chokes, he just holds position, you know, kind of mauls you a little bit on the ground but, you know, he’s not delivering the punishment. You know, you think of what Sonnen did to Silva, you know you think of what Jonny Jones does. You think of what Randy Couture’s made a history of doing, you know they’re all wrestlers, they get you down and they beat on you and Jon Fitch doesn’t really do that and I think that’s the difference and that’s what people are upset about. Hey, we don’t mind you taking him down, but once you take him down, DO SOMETHING with that position, you know, throw some punches, throw some elbows, you know kind of make the guy know that, you know, he’s in a fight. You know, basically other than getting flung down, you know, Thiago Alves didn’t look any worse for wear when he walked out of the cage.”
STEVE COFIELD: “I think Alves was there for the taking both physically AND mentally.”
KEVIN IOLE: “Yeah, I agree. I mean, you know, Dana (White) made a great point at the post-fight press conference, you know he said that Alves can’t make 170 any more. He talked about, you know, how he looked lethargic and didn’t have it and I think that was true and so that’s kind of a knock, you know, without saying it, a knock on Fitch because he wasn’t himself, he wasn’t, you know, fresh. He wasn’t explosive like he normally is and Fitch couldn’t finish him and Fitch didn’t ever really even have him in jeopardy, I mean he just took him down and kind of held him down. You know, hey… it was a great wrestling match and a great wrestling performance but it wasn’t a great fight.”
STEVE COFIELD: “In some ways, you almost wonder just to get Fitch out of the division if the UFC is rooting for a little drama to have Koscheck beat GSP. I’ll tell you, I know Dana made a point again during the press conference where he’s like, well, Fitch isn’t saying that he won’t fight Koscheck. To me, he said it. I don’t think he’s changing his mind. I don’t think they’re willing to fight each other and maybe it unfolds nicely for them but he’s fooling himself into believing that if Koscheck wins that Fitch is going to fight him.”
KEVIN IOLE: “Well, [Fitch] said to Dave Meltzer and Dave went to lunch with him a week before the fight and our colleague at Yahoo Sports who does a great job, Dave had lunch with Jon Fitch and Jon Fitch said if he wins he’s going to go up to 185, he’s not going to fight so, you know, I mean I don’t think it’s going to happen. I don’t think we’ll see a Koscheck/Fitch fight, you know, maybe or probably GSP will have a lot to say about that and we won’t have to worry but, you know, I think Jon if he gets the title shot, you know, I think there’s going to be a big burden on him because he’s going to have to answer some tough questions, you know, there was so much Saturday night with Sonnen and Silva that, you know, Fitch kind of fell to the background once the two main event fighters got in. I think Jon escaped a little bit some of the wrath but, you know, I don’t think he’s got people, you know, clamoring to see him. There’s no doubt about that and a fight with Georges St. Pierre who, to some degree is similar, you know, Georges takes guys down and does the same thing. At least Georges works for submissions, you know, he got criticized against Dan Hardy but let’s compare Georges’ fight against Dan Hardy to Fitch’s fight against Alves. You know, Hardy didn’t tap to armbars and kimuras and I can’t remember all what else Georges had on but I know that Dan Hardy showed a lot of toughness because Georges put him through the ringer of submission moves. When did Fitch ever do anything like that? Never. And, you know… and that’s been typical with Jon. I think Jon, you know, needs to look at those tapes, needs to read and listen to some of the criticism.”
STEVE COFIELD: “We agree, though, that GSP, he’s the favorite. He’ll probably win against Koscheck, so then we are presented with a scenario of who gets Georges St. Pierre sometime in 2011. I got to tell you, I think the fight between (Jake) Shields and (Martin) Kampmann, the door is wide open. Now, here’s the possibility… is that Shields has a lay-and-pray that’s kind of boring and he outpoints Kampmann and then all of a sudden the promotion is like, uh oh, what do we do? The new guy who is a wrestler and wants top control or the older guy who’s already had a shot?”
KEVIN IOLE: “Well, you know, I mean, in all due respect to Jake Shields, you know I think he’s a terrific fighter and I think he’s going to beat Martin Kampmann when they fight. Having said that, Jon Fitch has earned it. Jon Fitch is a similar fighter to Jake and Jon Fitch has now won five in a row, 21 out of 22, he’s beaten ELITE guys, he’s beaten better competition even if we assume if we give Shields today, weeks before they fight, a win over Martin Kampmann, I think you know even given that, you know, Fitch has a better record in terms of victories over top opponents than Jake does and I think he deserves the shot. But, you’re right — both guys are going to be similar. I don’t see much of a difference between a Fitch/GSP fight or a Shields/GSP fight, just the fact that it would be a difference face in there.”
STEVE COFIELD: “Yep. And don’t get me wrong because the guy who is going to potentially beat GSP is going to have to be someone who can wrestle and it’s going to have to stay on the feet and then, at that point, you know, you’re rolling the dice because GSP’s dynamite on the feet but at least it has a chance, whether it’s because you’re going to see Koscheck next, whether it’s Shields or Fitch to stay on the feet because they thwart each other wrestling-wise, because you can really for the next couple of fights you can’t put GSP in with guys who basically can tackle.”
KEVIN IOLE: “Right. Yeah, no, I agree, I mean, at that point they’re going to be, you know, stale-mated on the ground I would think and so, yeah, I agree, I mean, I think you have to have somebody that has that ability. You know, somebody like BJ Penn, if BJ was at 170 and I just don’t believe BJ’s big enough, but BJ has the kind of style, you know, he’s terrific on his feet and he’s got the jiu-jitsu, he’s got the takedown defense, the jiu-jitsu, and the stand-up that he would be the guy to beat Georges St. Pierre. If there was a 170-pound version of BJ, and I know there’s not too many BJ Penns in the world but that would be the guy that you would want to see fight Georges St. Pierre to give him his biggest test.”
STEVE COFIELD: “Well, maybe Georges will piss off Chael Sonnen in the next couple of months and Chael mentioned during the press conference, right, that he’ll go anywhere for a title if he has to diet down to go after Jose Aldo, he’ll do it.”
Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 15 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
White is a liar for saying Fitch/Alves was for the #1 contendership and then going against his word because the fight was boring.
Fitch has zero room to complain if he is going to play games about fighting for the title. He either wants to fight for the title or he doesn’t. All of this conditional stuff based on who wins the GSP/Koscheck 2 fight makes me think he should have just gone up to Middleweight instead of fighting Alves and ruining another potential contender.
I’m a Fitch fan, but he’s acting like a brat as well. But that doesn’t excuse White’s behavior either because if Fitch said he would fight Koscheck, then White would still be a liar….
UFC fighters who don’t know how to play the political game in 2010 are hopeless morons. It’s so obvious: if you draw money, you can do practically everything but nail Dana’s wife and you’ll still get everything you want. If you’re not a draw, you have to be a team player to get their appreciation and maybe once in a while you can get what you want.
Jon Fitch is not a draw. If he jumped over to Strikeforce tomorrow, not one single person would care. He’s not exciting, he doesn’t have a marketable personality, he’s a vanilla wrestler with mediocre stand up that they have seemingly 10 billion of under contract. He could be replaced with several people, and nobody would notice except Dustin Hazelett who would be overjoyed the fans would stop calling him Jon Fitch.
As for Dana going back on his word because the fight was boring, it’s a business. Other sports outside of boxing do not have this problem because they’re on free television and UFC is set up to give fights good enough to get the fans money every month. And you can’t put out fights you know the fans do not want to pay to see. People rightfully wouldn’t pay 10 cents to watch a Jon Fitch fight, and especially when they know GSP is just going to do exactly what he did in the last fight to win, it’s an impossible sell. Yes, they could stick a really big co-main to prop up buys, but why should they waste a co-main to help out a hopeless fighter? Why should they waste one of the finite amount of fights GSP has left in his prime against Jon Fitch if nobody is going to care? They can just not do the fight just like they wouldn’t give Okami a title shot and only a small percentage of the fans would even care.
@Mark
How can you say John Fitch could be replaced by seveal people? How many other poeple have gone 21 of their last 22 with the one loss being to GSP? Also I would love to see a Fitch GSP 2. I think since losing to GSP Fitch has gotten better. He did the same thing to Alves that GSP did. I think Fitch has the tools to beat GSP and the second fight would be a lot closer then the first.
I don’t mean exactly like him down to his record, I mean with his style. There is no shortage of NCAA wrestlers with lousy stand up in the MMA universe. There’s probably one walking your streets right now.
There are a small minority of fans who enjoy plain wrestlers, but most MMA fans aren’t fond of guys working top control knowing they’re fighting to go 15 minutes. If you’re entertained by that, good for you. But clearly most people aren’t when Fitch gets boos in all of his fights.
Is it taking away from the purity of fighting if you tell a guy “don’t fight like that even though it works.” Sure. But like I said MMA is a business that lives and dies on fans being happy more than most other sports because you’re paying to see it. So for better or for worse they’re all going to tell guys to keep fan entertainment in mind when they go out there. Fitch’s buddy Josh Koscheck got the same speech he did and took it to heart and look where he is today. When he came in he was referred to as “the wet blanket”, but he evolved his game into some good stand up and decent submissions instead of “take downs and 15 minute top control.” Was it the end of the world for Josh Koscheck that he was told to step his entertainment level up? Definitely not. People don’t want to see top control games. They want to see wrestlers with something special like Jon Jones’ crazy throws, Brock Lesnar’s insane power and being amused about GSP’s grappling being underestimated yet again.
But what tools are different? He isn’t a better wrestler than he was in 2008, and certainly his stand up hasn’t improved that much (as someone pointed out yesterday he was some of the worst footwork ever seen in UFC.) He’d lose another decision easy. St. Pierre is just on another level from even NCAA’s finest. To beat him you’re going to have to knock him out. Koscheck could definitely do that. Fitch, no freakin’ way unless GSP DDT’ed himself on a takedown like Mark Kerr that time.
I like ground games, but I like it when someone passes guard because I think the guy will do something with it. Jon Jones passes your guard, and I get excited because I know that I’m about to see some elbows thrown with the fury of hell itself. Jon Fitch passes guard to increase his control so it’ll be that much harder for you to work to your feet. He only punches you when he has you stifled 100% and there’s no chance you’ll do anything.
I don’t think he is required to change his style or anything like that, but neither am I required to be interested in watching him “fight”. I watched the Alves fight for about 3 minutes, and then I started doing other stuff and occassionally looking up to check on how the fight was going, which is becoming my standard MO anytime Fitch is winning his fights.
As for replacing Fitch, the only thing he has going for him is that he’s the #2 fighter with a great record. If Fitch never became an MMA fighter, Alves or Shields would replace him as the #2 fighter with a great record. Great fighters are easy to replace, it’s all relative, and if they weren’t there you’d never know you were missing them. The thing you can’t easily replace is a great fighter that is exciting and/or a draw, like Lesnar, GSP, or Chuck back in his prime.
I am so excited to see GSP-Fitch II. Honestly, after having to suffer through far too many Fitch fights, seeing him get beaten to an absolute pulp, get entirely outclassed and embarrassed, was the only time I have ever enjoy a Fitch fight. Dana needs to make that rematch as a reward to the fans who have stayed UFC fans despite Fitch’s unfortunate presence on the main cards of shows.
Is there some sort of curse that makes Fitch the most boring fighter in the world that Kos winning would break?
Otherwise I don’t get the premise.
Unless you mean that he’d just leave 170. He’s already done an awful lot of damage to the division though.
If you just got rid of Fitch then Kos/GSP winner fights Shields/Kampmann winner. One of the losers fights Alves and then that guy is ready for another crack at the belt.
The belief I think is he’d go to MW and probably have a .500 average and get beaten by possibly Maia, Leben, Okami, and Sonnen and would be the gatekeeper instead of top contender.
That would be great. Because I doubt he could just lay on those guys and bore me to tears.
He also wouldn’t ruin that division.
People at 185 he could probably beat: Wanderlei, Aikyama, Bisping, Dollaway, Grove, Cote, Lawlor, Quarry.
People at 185 who would probably beat him: Anderson, Sonnen, Leben, Okami, Maia, Munoz, Belfort, Marquardt.
And let me add that the people I think he could beat list is only if he packed on size and found a way to be comfortable with it. Because if he came into MW as a small fighter he couldn’t beat anybody since all he has are takedowns and he’d be shut down.
The thing to me is this: The UFC can’t force him to move up to middleweight. Someone in his management team must be smart enough to tell him that he is going to become a liability that would be cut in short order if he moved up to 185. I mean, honestly guys – the UFC would match him up crazy hard in his first fight up and then hope he loses so they can trim that contract. What is Mike Swick going to do under those circumstances, move up too?
Hell, the very premise that Fitch is a “problem” and that its being debated by Kevin Iole makes me immediately think that this guy should hope Koscheck wins and then stay at 170 to stink it out and collect paychecks forever.
If I were Zuffa I’d cut him and be thrilled to have him go ruin someone else’s shows.
Outside of the UFC he could demolish a 170lb division. There isn’t anyone not in UFC that would beat him and he’d bore people to death for 25 min every time out.
I happen to think Fitch would fare better(in terms of finishing people) at MW. His size disadvantage would be a hindrance, but the overall lack of good grappling at the weight class would suit him ver well IMO.
He’ll be trading in less wrestlers with pedigree for more people who could finish him, though.
Let’s say he fights Chris Leben, who is going to have a size advantage no matter what and is good enough grappling to stop his takedowns. He will be KOed because if he can’t bring it to the ground he has nothing. And there’s a bunch of guys there who can put him out with a strike or two if he makes a mistake, and he doesn’t have too much of that at 170.
He’d have to work on his stand up much harder than going to Thailand to get the puke-noise nickname if he’d survive.