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Talk Radio: Why is the media paying so much attention to Strikeforce negotiating with Batista when it’s as big of a joke as James Toney in the UFC?
By Zach Arnold | June 25, 2010
Now that’s a leading headline for you. This passage comes from Sherdog radio last Wednesday.
The first point being made is how much of the media covering MMA now comes from the pro-wrestling world. Of course, as Alan Conceicao has pointed out before, “everything is pro-wrestling.” The addendum point to point #1 is how much Scott Coker and Showtime believe that grabbing former WWE guys is somehow going to help their bottom line.
The second point being made is trying to put the potential signing of Batista in context to UFC signing James Toney. At least with Brock Lesnar in UFC and Bobby Lashley in Strikeforce, you had pro-wrestlers with amateur wrestling experience. With Batista, you have someone who went down in wrestling folk legend for allegedly getting beat up by Booker T.
JACK ENCARNACAO: “I have resisted, Mr. Sariahmed, the temptation to address the rumors surrounding Batista, the long-time WWE pro-wrestler who is in attendance at the Strikeforce card in Los Angeles last week and TMZ ran with a story that he had signed to fight with Strikeforce and there was the typical ‘no, no, no, that’s premature, no, no, no’ and so kinda like how remember [Coker] only had coffee with somebody, who was that, was that Herschel Walker he only had coffee with?”
LUTFI SARIAHMED: “Jose Canseco.”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “Jose Canseco, OK. Well, I eat my words. That’s true. That never happened. But… All I’m going to say is the level of attention that the talks with him have received once again demonstrates how many closet wrestling fans there are out there and not only in MMA fandom world but in the MMA journalism world. I mean, all these people come, not all of them, but many more than you would think come from a lifetime of not only watching pro-wrestling but covering pro-wrestling and there’s that subtext that means more to them when they hear that name versus other guys, you know, there’s plenty of other athletes from plenty of other sports, football and the way up, that have technically you know not got any further than it sounds like Dave Batista has in talking with Strikeforce and it gets no attention. Is this just the Brock Lesnar effect, Lutfi?”
LUTFI SARIAHMED: “I mean, after a certain point, yes, I mean, with Batista I believe we’re talking about a guy who’s what… not exactly the biggest personality in the world, not exactly the biggest name in the world, and I think we’re honestly digging from bottom of the barrel guys when you’re talking about… how old is this guy, 40?”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “41. Well, he’s a much bigger name than Lashley and I think as far as the exposure he’s gotten since like 2004 to 2005, he’s probably at least as far as his role in the WWE, just as big a name in that context as Brock Lesnar was. So I think he’s more on par with Lesnar in terms of the stardom he was able to achieve in the WWE more so than even a Lashley, so… maybe you haven’t, I understand you know you don’t follow it too closely, but no, Batista’s a pretty big name in pro-wrestling. Top 5, Top 6 guy.”
LUTFI SARIAHMED: “Well I mean also, though, you’re talking about Lesnar’s athletic ability in terms of kind of adjusting to why that signing was made as opposed to Dave Batista where regardless of the background, we’re talking about a 41-year old guy trying to get into the sport.”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “Oh make no mistake, yeah, no background. He’s… I mean, you know, Lesnar is an NCAA National Champion, D-I, grown man wrestler… another league but great wrestler. Lashley, you know, wrestled in the Army, I think he had a Jr. College wrestling career but something to point to. Batista, nothing like that, I mean… nothing.”
LUTFI SARIAHMED: “Yeah, I mean, we’re talking about a joke signing along the lines of James Toney signing for the UFC at 118, I mean… these older guys with very little of any experience in regards to Mixed Martial Arts, I mean, you just kind of shrug your shoulders and clearly if this signing is made and there, like you said, there are conflicting reports as to whether or not that actually has, if it is made then it’s just a joke popularity push thing grab. That’s really all they’re trying to do and sure, it’ll probably succeed in the short term, yeah, you’ve outlined on many occasions how popular the wrestling fans, the wrestling guys, the wrestling people that come over are with a lot of MMA fans but I mean it’s a joke signing if it does in fact happen and at this point I really shouldn’t be surprised any more, anything that happens in MMA.”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “Right. Yeah, I can’t disagree with you, I mean the word is that he’s been training at the Affliction Gym in California for a while, he just left the WWE kind of the top of his game. I mean he was headlining every single PPV, he was really one of the top names they had and he walked away. Kind of like what Brock Lesnar did and Lashley when he walked away hadn’t quite made it as a top guy but was certainly being positioned that way so, it’s an alarming trend I think for the WWE not to go too far down that road that these guys…”
LUTFI SARIAHMED: “Is this move more in response to if they do make it more in response to all right, we failed with Lashley or they’re kind of cutting their losses their Lashley and then we’ll see whether or not we can strike it big with this next big Lesnar-esque type character and try to see if we can get Batista in the fold?”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “Yeah, you know, I wouldn’t say that because Lashley was already in the game before Strikeforce signed him. You know, it’s not like Strikeforce did what they did with Herschel Walker which is usher him entirely into MMA, you know what I mean? Lashley would be fighting elsewhere if Strikeforce hadn’t signed him. He wants in and he wants to pursue it as a career whereas as Batista they would be completely rolling the dice with a guy who has no MMA experience, no real fight experience, and you know would clearly be just a piece to draw interest if they thought that that’s what they would need down the road but…”
LUTFI SARIAHMED: “That’s the impression. No, that’s exactly the impression that I get, it’s more… if we’re going to take this shot, we’re going to try and do it with one of the biggest stars that they have that would be willing to come in just to see how much we can get in terms of popularity from, in terms of more eyeballs because these WWE fans come over and say hey, I remember this guy, and might as well watch Strikeforce so.”
JACK ENCARNACAO: “Right. Considering how recently Batista was in the public eye for the WWE and how recently he was a big deal to that audience, if someone here sees he’s going to be in a real fight on Showtime or on CBS or even on PPV, I think there’s going to be some scratch in play, I think there’s a big boost there but it’s a one-time boost, make no mistake about it. I don’t see any long-term future in using Dave Batista in Mixed Martial Arts unless he’s been training in the same secret dungeon that Kurt Angle’s been training in, who claims that he’s just so brushed up he knows stuff that the top guys don’t know but you know he’s not going to fight.”
Topics: Media, MMA, StrikeForce, Zach Arnold | 28 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
How can you conceivably compare James Toney to Batista? Toney was a multi-division world champion in a combat sport with a talent pool about 1000x deeper than mma’s. Newsflash: fights don’t start with one man between another man’s legs, they start on the feet, where being a boxing world champion is a lot more useful than being a pro wrestler or an amateur wrestler. Nobody says it is a joke when amateur wrestlers cross over, but when boxers do, it is. I’m not going to outright say that most people who think top level boxers have no chance in mma are racists (although that is certainly part of the undercurrent–and let me add for the record that James Toney is not a world-class boxer anymore, but he is still probably a better striker than anyone in mma), but the conventional wisdom of “grappling is more important in mma than striking” is based on the incredibly false underpinning that the level of striker in mma is somehow comparable to the level of grappler in mma.
Mixed martial arts gets the best grapplers in the world, and strikers who could not make it in pro boxing. Even a guy like Mirko was basically a boxing failure–he was a good amateur, didn’t win the Euro amateur championship, moved over to K1, and then to mma, where he was good enough to become the 2nd best fighter in the world. A guy like Marcus Davis was literally a nobody in boxing but despite crossing over in his 30s, reached top 10 WW status at one point. To think that a top level boxer couldn’t come in and decimate lots of these unathletic guys with some training is ridiculous, and comparing the fighting credentials of James Toney with those of Dave Batista is rather silly.
Toney is theoretically more fit to fight in MMA, and is getting a much higher level of opposition.
One of the issues MMA fans have is understanding what kinds of tiers there are in terms of fighters. There are regional guys who fight nationally because they are exciting or pooped on TV, there are world class guys fighting in bingo halls because they are boring. Randy Couture, as old as he is, is an enormous step up from Greg Nagy, or even veteran MMA fighters like Ron Rumpf.
Newsflash:
-James Toney is not a better striker than anyone in mma. Floyd Mayweather wouldn’t have the best striking in mma if he entered. The reason certain strkiers do better in mma is the fact that there are other disciplines envolved(Takedown defense, fighting out of clinches, checking leg kicks). Mirko did great in mma because he had great hips, along with excellent striking.
– Marcus Davis reached high level status because he became a well rounded mixed martial artist. He added submissions, wrestling and some decent kickboxing to his repetoire.(Along with possibly using performance enhancing drugs).
-Racist???? Wrestling is better suited to actual fighting than boxing is. All you have to ask is whats more likely, a high level boxer catching the wrestler and knocking him out, or the wrestler getting a takedown and pounding the boxer’s face into mush? Wrestling is the best base for MMA.
If you are talking about a straight boxer with no cross training against a similar-level wrestler with no cross training, I will take the boxer.
How do you know what the best base is for mma? We have never had a top-level boxer in his prime in mma, so there is no way to know. If you took a prime high-level boxer and had him cross over, we would have more of an answer. As it stands now, the UFC is a sport for grapplers. The rules dictate that.
Who is a better striker than Toney in mma? Seriously, I want to hear this. I think Anderson Silva, J2S, Pat Barry, Mirko, Shogun, Machida, etc would all take him down immediately because with those tiny ass gloves I think he would knock everyone out.
Mirko did great because he was super fast and athletic, could kick like a mule, and had pretty decent hands and good head movement. Toney doesn’t have the athleticism he had when he was young, but I am pretty sure he could have had a lot of success if he had crossed over when he was younger.
Anderson Silva has better striking in MMA than James Toney. Pat Barry has better striking in MMA than James Toney. Jose Aldo has better striking in MMA than James Toney.
To steal(and change around a lil bit) a qoute from Alan Conceicao:
“Western boxing is not the only discipline where striking is concerned.”
Edub: Your quote from Alan C entirely misrepresents the argument. I don’t think there is any inherent advantage of the system of boxing, but what boxing has is more money than any other fight sport, and a worldwide talent pool that dwarfs anything mma could ever have.
It isn’t that boxing is better than muay Thai, but it attracts better athletes/fighters because there is so much more money.
Who have the 3 fighters you mentioned ever fought who is a world-class striker? Anderson Silva has a 1-1 pro boxing record; he simply moved to a smaller pool and now he is a bigger fish. Toney is too old to have similar success, but the fact that he has had incredible success in the sport with the biggest talent pool makes the suggestion of Pat Barry and Jose Aldo being better strikers hard for me to swallow.
You make so many terrible points that I am literally sitting here in front of my computer laughing.
-You said James Toney has the best striking coming into MMA. Lets throw away the fact that he hasn’t been relevant in years, and when he was he was on PED’s. Boxing is but ONE facet of striking. How is it relevant that it attracts more money than MMA or kickboxing. How is a shoulder roll and quick hands gonna stop him from getting his legs kicked into minced meat. How is the fact that he was a great “Boxer” 10-15 years ago help him in a entirely different sport today.
– The last time Anderson Silva lossed a boxing match was 1998. And anyways it was a BOXING match. Not a kickboxing match, which is a lot closer to MMA.
– Pat Barry has had success in K1 and in other kickboxing venues. Jose Aldo just got finished kciking a guy about 100 times in the leg until he couldnt even stand, the same guy who’s a collegiate wrestler that couldn’t manage a single takedown.
Racist? Naw. It’s the fact that (along with what Alan and edub said) Toney is 41 or 42 and is COMPLETELY shot as a fighter. If he crossed over as early as five years ago then people (myself included) would have taken him a little seriously. But not now. Plus I doubt he has any sort of grappling fundamentals.
And yes, grappling is a little more important than striking in MMA. Just watch the first fifteen or so UFCs, and you’ll see what I mean.
Chuck I’m not talking specifically about Toney’s chances, given his age and that he is fairly shot. I am saying this based on seeing what is said on mma message boards.
How many top level boxers competed in the first fifteen or so UFC’s?
No top level boxers fought in the first 15 or so UFC’s, but Ron Van Clief (who was a major kickboxer back in the seventies) fought on UFC 4, and Gerard Gordeau fought at UFC 1 and was the runner up (losing to Royce Gracie in the finals). So quite a few really good kickboxers fought in the early UFCs.
“I’m not going to outright say that most people who think top level boxers have no chance in mma are racists …”
Awww come on go for it.
You only live once so put some stank on it IMO.
well, I’m not black so I have no race card to play. One doesn’t need to be black to notice the level of vitriol directed against people who suggest boxers could do very well in mma.
Boxers not doing well doesn’t bother me as far as talk goes. What’s transparently racist is the “MMA fighters are more educated and had better families” sort of talk that is obviously intended to try and separate them from fatherless high school dropouts who entered the fighting business. That’s a discussion for a whole ‘nother day.
Boxing doesn’t work in MMA.
People are paying attention to it because it’s such a bad decision if true it’s like watching the setting up of a trainwreck.
And there was far more solid proof that Strikeforce was working to sign Walker than there was for Canseco (which was just absurd after DREAM. Well, before DREAM too) and currently with Batista (which is just TMZ saying it’s true.)
And again, this idea that WWE fans will tune into MMA just because one of their former stars is fighting was proven untrue with Lashley. Brock was a special circumstance because he had the amateur background. Nobody is going to tune in to see Batista injure himself against some can. Yeah, the guy is a great heel, but there’s far too much skepticism to be taken seriously.
I keep seeing people complain that Batista is causing people not to care about Fedor/Werdum, which is ridiculous. Nobody cared about that fight regardless.
“And again, this idea that WWE fans will tune into MMA just because one of their former stars is fighting was proven untrue with Lashley. Brock was a special circumstance because he had the amateur background.”
Wrong and wrong.
WWE fans WILL tune in was proven RIGHT with Lashley AND Brock.
And WWE fans didn’t tune in because of the Brocks amateur background.
But thanks for playing MARK.
I don’t mean to troll, but I really think you’re the dimmest poster on here dude. I hate having to go all EJ, but it needs to be said.
Okay, so you always bring up how much you hate pro wrestling, now you’re an expert on what WWE fans like? Interesting.
Yes, his amateur background had a ton to do with Brock’s career, even in pro wrestling. While his amateur wrestling wasn’t as strong of a part of his gimmick as Kurt Angle’s was, when he came in it was heavily hyped as “Here’s this NCAA National Champion who is a wrecking machine and freaking huge so this is why he’s ‘The Next Big Thing’.” They ran video packages and had announcers hype it heavily. So while it wasn’t harped on as much as Angle’s was, they still knew it.
So compare that to the reaction, say, Edge would get if he announced he was going to do MMA. He has no background in anything but pro wrestling, so there would not be anything close to the same excitement the build to Brock’s UFC debut got from WWE fans. They lost their minds thinking about how much Brock would destroy everybody. An Edge type would get “Gee, I hope he doesn’t get hurt too bad.”
As for Lashley having any kind of huge success, please point me to his ratings or buyrates success to where a large number of WWE fans went out and bought/watched a Bobby Lashley fight. The Bob Sapp fight was a dud, and Strikeforce’s Miami show success was 100% due to Herschel Walker. Everybody knows that. And everybody only talked about Wes Sims making an ass out of himself and how bad he looked if they said anything at all about that fight. And where’s the hype to his next Strikeforce fight? Pro Wrestling message boards are buzzing about Brock. Nothing about Lashley.
I’ll ask again: Has anyone with a scrap of credibility reported that Batista and Strikeforce are negotiating?
If Dave Meltzer counts, he said they talked and Batista is asking for way more money than Strikeforce would pay him.
JARDINE’s been cut from the UFC roster.
Big news. Not a lot of people thought it would happen. I was on of em.
I didn’t think it would happen either, but I hadn’t checked his record in awhile.
I didn’t realize that this made 4 in a row.
Its pretty reasonable after taking that into account.
“I’ll ask again: Has anyone with a scrap of credibility reported that Batista and Strikeforce are negotiating?”
Yup. Well, if you consider us (MMAjunkie.com) credible, which I hope you do.
Strikeforce would only tell us officially that there is no deal in place now. (Actually, their PR director said there’s no deal in place “right now.”)
But we’ve heard from people inside and outside the organization that talks are ongoing. Additionally, Steven Marrocco (who writes for us) met Scott Coker in LA last week for an interview. Bautista was there at the hotel, as well.
“…Why is the media paying so much attention to Strikeforce negotiating with Batista…”
People are paying attention to that?
Why am I always the last one to hear these things?
Boxing works in the realm of MMA. If there wasn’t value to it, they wouldn’t be dragging guys like Howard Davis Jr. into MMA camps and people like GSP wouldn’t show up to train with Freddy Roach. The basics are essential. The problem James Toney has primarily are multifold. He’s fighting an experienced MMA fighter (1). He’s never seriously trained to wrestle (2). He doesn’t have any background defending submissions (3). He doesn’t have any background defending kicks, knees, or elbows (4). He’s never fought 5 minute rounds (5). He’s 41 years old (6). He admits to have suffered brain damage during his boxing career (7). He is infamously lazy (8). He is notable for how poorly he takes care of himself (9) and how often he’s used steroids as a shortcut to get ready for fights (10).
You put all that together, you have a recipe for a loss. A big loss. Now, Batista has only ever beaten people up as a bar bouncer. If he fights a guy who changes tires for a living, yeah, he might beat their ass. He might also fight an embryonic Brett Rogers and get wasted. Its a much closer and more competitive fight.
Can we match up James Toney against Crocop next? I want to see a high kick knockout for one last time.
I have no idea whether or not Batista will stand a chance in MMA; he’s big (we all know why), but what kind of fighting skills does he really have?
It will come down to his taking to training properly, not getting booked against someone who will wipe the mat with him technically, and putting a game plan into action.
With him, we’ll have to see what happens. As for Toney, well, someone said it earlier. He WAS a great fighter, at one time one of the world’s best. His skills are gone, he’s obviously not all there mentally (based on his erratic behavior), and the only weapon he has left is a big mouth.
I still think White signed him to keep him away from Strikeforce; if he wins his first fight, Dana will crow about how smart he was to sign the maniac. If Toney loses, then Dana can just cut him loose, no muss, no fuss. I think Dana’s banking on the latter to happen.
I honestly would not pay money to see either of these guys fight, or whatever it is they end up doing. This is good for media attention; pro wrestling and boxing fans might just put the money down to see how they do, but I don’t think they will.
At best, Batista and Toney belong on the undercard…deep on it.
I never understood why they played up the “more educated” point in mma. Does that really make people like it more than boxing?
I’m sure it happened earlier, but the first I remember it taking place was when Rogan was talking about “former ww champion”(the had it under his cameo in the crowd) carlos Newton. Joe made a point to talk about he had a doctorate, and “thats a different thing about MMA”.
That’s done under the “We have to prove MMA fighters aren’t street thugs!” mentality from the early part of the last decade. Anybody who even went to a trade school had it heavily hyped as something special. “Here’s Joe Blow and he’s a trained Comcast cable repair man. See, he doesn’t club old ladies over the head and take their purse on his days off!” But it is done less and less now. Now if college is mentioned at all it’s just their amateur wrestling career there. I have no clue what Jon Fitch and Brock Lesnar have degrees in, for instance. I just know they wrestled.