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Do you support the idea of MMA having a Cruiserweight division?
By Zach Arnold | April 5, 2010
Big news item of the day involves the Ohio Athletic Commission creating a Cruiserweight division in MMA. It will start on a trial basis for amateur MMA fights.
Mayhem Miller has been booked for the Strikeforce 4/17 Nashville card. Here is the full card line-up. Dave Meltzer says that Gilbert Melendez will be the measuring stick to see how good Shin’ya Aoki really is. I have a new column talking about the challenges ahead for the Strikeforce vs. DREAM interpromotional series. UFC will air their 110 Australian event as counter-programming to the Strikeforce event on CBS.
Speaking of Strikeforce, where did Bobby Lashley go?
Franklin McNeil of Newark Star-Ledger and MMA live fame tries to explain how Demain Maia can survive the stand-up war against Anderson Silva. Mentioning the name Thales Leites at the beginning of the article may not be a way to persuade readers that Demian Maia will be able to fare any better…
Tim Sylvia is hyping up his May bout against Mariusz Pudzianowski. I am glad that Jack E (article author) mentioned who is promoting this debacle. Do a quick search of the name Corey Fischer on this web site and you’ll know why I am negative about this whole circus. When the Ohio Athletic Commission has a watchdog group accusing you of using professional MMA fighters in amateur bouts (like they alleged against Forrest Petz), combined with the fact that you used to be aligned with Art Dore, and you can see why skepticism is a natural reaction to have here.
But there’s one part about this article by Jack that I must highlight:
According to press materials, the promotion is financed by “Mr. Oh,” an affluent Korean businessman who owns a large Tae Kwon Do promotional company in South Korea. Moosin has promoted MMA shows in South Korea and the United States. Fischer said he met Pudzianowski’s representation through his connection with Moosin, which plans an expansion into Poland.
I remember spending much time in the past covering someone of Korean blood who was a mysterious money mark in MMA. I’ll give you a cookie if you can figure out who I’m talking about.
Bellator starts their season this Thursday on Fox Sports Net/Comcast Sportsnet in Florida. I’m with Alan C, one of our veteran site commenters — I’ve yet to figure out why leaving ESPN Deportes was a good move for this promotion and I’ve yet to figure out where money is being made here. Relatively few questions are being asked by anyone about why some things aren’t adding up here, yet.
Jon Fitch vs. Thiago Alves is set for UFC 115 on 6/12 in Vancouver. I still peg the fight in favor of Fitch at a 60/40 clip, but I’m being optimistic here. It probably should be more or less 70/30 due to the fact that Fitch will be likely able to take down Alves (as we saw when Alves fought St. Pierre).
If Anderson Silva vs. Machida was booked in UFC, would it end up being an uninspiring bout that would go to the scorecards?
KTAR, a Phoenix media outlet, is asking why MMA events are not coming to the state. We’ve highlight recent legislative attempts in the state to try to expand MMA legislation, but so far I don’t have any new updates on that matter. Rob Maysey would probably be the go-to-guy on that front.
I praised Leah Oatway of The National yesterday for her coverage of the upcoming UFC event in Abu Dhabi. Today she has an article that slips close to the Zuffa Myth about UFC “cleaning up” its act. She also has a profile article on Mark Munoz and one on Kendall Grove.
Meet a professor who trains at Gracie South BJJ in Mississippi.
Evander Holyfield says he watched the John Ruiz/David Haye fight “on the Internet.” Bad boy.
Mackens Semerzier is getting ready for the WEC 4/24 Sacramento PPV event at Arco Arena.
Topics: Media, MMA, StrikeForce, UFC, Zach Arnold | 36 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
I was very disappointed to see that Corey Fischer is still around. He’s bad news.
Leaving ESPN Deportes was a good move because English-speaking MMA fans will actually be able to watch it this year. Bellator Season 1 was obscured, you couldn’t even find some installments via “alternative” means.
Where is the money being made? Well, there was an article last time around about how they hold events at casino/resorts that pay them a fee to bring customers to their business, e.g. the “MFC/Tachi Palace Fights Model”. Now they’ve got some modest, M-1 level television deals to compliment that income.
What exactly isn’t “adding up” about it?
I would agree that the current TV format is much more likely to get viewers. That doesn’t mean it adds up into making money. I just think the promoter knows what to say: “We aren’t competing, we’re building a fanbase the right way” etc etc. I would be more willing to buy in if this wasn’t his first time to the dance and he hadn’t said the same things long before en route to massive fail.
Yeah, I don’t think being on FSN or The Score is going to net them a ton of cash, but if they can market it to other countries, I bet all the small rights fees add up. M-1 Challenge is broadcast in an astonishing number of territories given where they are in the pecking order of MMA orgs.
I’d say they are mostly dependent on the Casino fee model to make their money. Their 1st and 3rd shows of the second season see them returning to the Hard Rock in Hollywood, Fla. and the Mohegan Sun in Conn., though it appears they are going to book some theatres and small arenas this time around. I have no idea what their finances are like, but MFC and PFC (now TPF) have sustained themselves with this structure while putting on some really good matches.
Club shows like Tachi Palace in their various incarnations (old WEC, PFC, Tachi Palace Fighting) is a pretty hostile and tough business. There’s a few long time promoters out there like Ring of Fire, and others have taken different routes. King of The Cage is a good example of someone who’s leased out their name as a sort of “sanctioning body” to nobody promoters. And all of them pay a lot less than Bellator will. Bellator is spending WEC money or more, which is why you see legit prospects that should be in TUF fighting there instead. Except, unlike the WEC, they’re paying to be on TV most of the time they’re on, and have less corporate backing. Its unlikely they’ll find a breakout star either, IMO.
I just see it as being a failure in the end that provides good fights but might tie up some guys in nasty limbo due to their contracts being so brutal.
I’m worried about that nasty limbo you are speaking of. We saw it with EliteXC where guys didn’t have fights for a while.
We can debate if Bellator goes out of business or not…. But if they happen to…. I hope they sell their fighter contracts to the UFC or Strikeforce and make it as painless as possible.
Cruiserweigut Division continues to be one ofthe dumbest ideas in the sport of MMA. Luckily, DW has said he will not create one. First, anybody 225 and under should be making the cut for LHW. Secondly, there has never been any long term proof that 230 pound Heavyweights can’t survive against the 265 ones due to size alone. If you logically make a list of how the division would break down if guys cut weight and they spilt the divisions…. It would be laughable.
As for Bellator…. I’m not sure if the channel change matters. They are both horrible deals. And they have to be losing big time money. To run a live show is going to be big bucks. Any investor who continues to put money into this is either being lied to or is extremely dumb. Smoogy is wrong here. Those casino deals aren’t paying out much. The cost of doing a live show and serious editting for 2 other channels in a short time span is very expensive. People claiming they are doing well are about as dumb as the ones saying the IFL was doing well at any point during their existence.
Glad that Fitch/Alves is back on. Fitch should win and there is no way they can keep him from a title shot after that.
Speaking of “people asking no questions”: Alves has an 8 hour BRAIN SURGERY due to some sort of issue with his circulatory system up there, and nobody seems to care what it actually was.
If I knew specifically what the surgery was (this is all I know in general), I would contact people in the medical field and gather information on it…
Maybe talk to whoever is doing MMA news for TMZ? LOL
I just looked at the Vancouver Athletic Commission site: They don’t demand anything but a bloodtest for HIV/Hep. I’m guessing no one on the net will ask anything, but will make sure to write lots of feel good stories about Alves.
I never said they were “doing well” as I am not appraised of their financial condition, but since you apparently have access to their balance sheet, by all means, please tell us specifically how much money they are losing.
Anybody was a decent knowledge of the sport of MMA knows Bellator is spending good money with not much in return right now…
1) As Alan has said, the Bellator guys have preached these lines before, and it was just a bunch of hot air.
2) We have all seen the IFL Balance Sheets and Income Statements. We have a general idea of how much money it takes to run a lower end MMA television product.
3) The WWE has taught us that live events are not cheap. So much in fact that when they have needed to cut costs in the past, they have done RAW live, and tape delayed Smackdown on the same show just to make it a cheaper alternative.
4) FSN either paid no money or basically no money to the IFL. I can’t see why Bellator would have gotten a big money deal from them. And FSN is a horrible way to get fans. Their shows will be on at weird times in different markets making it impossible to build a fanbase.
5) I’ve been to 2 Bellator shows. They put serious production into the arena. It doesn’t come cheap. And the crowd they got weren’t that big, which means the casino payouts can’t be very high.
There are just too many MMA companies out of business for anybody to think that Bellator has the magic touch to stay in business and make money at this.
And the M-1 example you used above is a horrible one. They have a guaranteed investor in Fedor. When he is done making money, M-1 will likely follow shortly…
“DW has said he will not create one.”
Say what?
I agree with 45Huddle about a Cruiser division being a waste of time. Cut to 205 if you think you’re going to be too small for the new HWs who are at the weight limit.
Machida-Silva would definitely go to the judges. Even if they had an honest competition instead of a Leites-Silva style sparring session Machida isn’t going to engage with Silva.
I also agree with Alan that Alves’s situation could be a lot more serious than his camp and the internet is making it out to be. Circulatory system problems are what was wrong with Sakuraba a few years ago (and probably still is because I never heard about him getting surgery.) I don’t know how bad it is. And I definitely don’t think there’s a conspiracy about the UFC purposely only putting him in a weak-regulation commission because clearly they don’t want a fighter dropping dead from a brain hemorrhage on their watch. But I will be pissed if serious questions aren’t asked because internet writers and real sports reporters are too busy with the “WOW WHAT A WARRIOR~!” bullshit sales pitch.
“due to the fact that Fitch will be likely able to take down Alves (as we saw when Alves fought St. Pierre).”
We could also counter argue that Fitch will likely not be able to take Alves down as displayed in the Koscheck fight.
Exactly what I was thinking, and out of the three Fitch’s takedowns are the worsed.
Yes but 250 is too high. There is not enough talent over 250.
225 or 235 would be better I think
I don’t think it makes sense to put a cruiser weight division into the UFC at this time. The 265 weight limit wasn’t a problem when Randy was beating Sylvia or Gonzaga, or when Fedor beat Sylvia, Rogers, or Hong Man Choi.
People are overreacting to Brock and Carwin having winning streaks.
Eventually, there will be enough competitors that size to create two competitive divisions, then you can make the split. But Brock having a 3 fight win streak and Carwin having a 12 fight win streak does not mean it’s impossible for a 230 pound man to beat a 265 pound man. And it certainly doesn’t erase the many times it has happened in the past.
Cruiserweight is stupid. The number of guys who 1) don’t want to fight the bigger weight 2) can’t make LHW is miniscule. It’s basically a division for Kimbo Slice.
According to MMAJunkie…. Pertaining to Fedor and Strikeforce…
“According to sources familiar with negotiations, talks recently broke down due to the concessions M-1 requested in a new deal for Emelianenko. The areas of discussion include co-branding between the promotions, financial responsibility for profits and losses incurred in co-promoted events, and Emelianenko’s compensation per fight.
M-1 representative Apy Echteld told MMAjunkie.com last week that Emelianenko’s new deal is expected to be finalized shortly. However, separate sources said that negotiations are ongoing and several contract stipulations remain unresolved.
A meeting between the companies this past Thursday was described by one source as a “last-ditch effort” to finish the deal.”
The never ending drama continues. It reminds me of high school….
I will say, it’s good to see Coker doing the right things where others have not. He doesn’t seem to be giving into their demands, realizing it would probably cripple his company. Which makes me think if Fedor doesn’t sign with Strikeforce, that Strikeforce will be around for a while. Of course, not having Fedor will hurt their drawing power, but at least they can build up prospects for the UFC to sign once their contracts come up.
And I would be shocked to see Fedor sign with the UFC. Likely back to Japan for Fedor…. And if he does that…. He will likely lose his #1 ranking to the winner of Carwin/Lesnar….
They must really believe they have a sure thing in Japan, otherwise I can’t see why they’d be so quick to leave. I also can’t see them going to the UFC – I’m sure a number of markets have been closed off to them by Strikeforce’s contract, probably excepting Japan and Russia, and certainly including the US. I’d like to believe otherwise, but I just don’t see it. I think Fedor ends up fighting K-1 guys and fat judoka for the rest of his career until eventually getting upset. Blah.
I have to think they are just bluffing. I can’t imagine K-1 or Sengoku paying Fedor big money like Strikeforce or the UFC can. He has had 1 fight in Japan since 2006, and wasn’t exactly a huge star at the time, despite being the Pride Heavyweight Champion.
I fully realize that a big chunk of your life revolves around hoping Fedor is going to be placed at #2 on some dumb internet rankings made by laymen that means absolutely nothing. And quite frankly I really do hope he does get deranked, since I’d get far more joy out of the constant obsession over it by the Danaites finally end (but what will you do with your lives?) than having it stay.
But, leaving Strikeforce for Japan doesn’t automatically rule him out of top 10 contention. What if he’s facing Josh Barnett and Allistar Overeem? What would be different doing it in DREAM than doing it in Strikeforce?
That will be a valid argument if he leaves to go fight Bob Sapp and Yoshida as the UFC’s top fighters continue success. But until then it’s more wishful thinking. But if you want him downgraded so bad, use your imagination and rank him at #3. It’s the same difference to the world.
Barnett has been busted for roids 3 times. Which means he shouldn’t be fighting anymore.
And Fedor’s management has already said they won’t fight Overeem because they think he is on roids, so who else do you think he will fight in Japan?
Bunch of scrubs….
Gotta love those geniuses at M1.
Fedor will not fight Overeem because they THINK he is on steroids even though he’s never tested positive.
But Fedor will fight Barnett even though he has tested positive for steroids several times?
45…why is any investor in Bellator just “dumb”?
Theyve only been around for like a year.
Didnt the Fertittas lose 40 million over like 7 years before making a single cent? No one is calling them dumb now…
Why are the Bellator investors dumb?
1) There is a long track record of organizations failing in MMA. The chances of turning a profit in this sport is slim.
2) Shane McMahon hired a bunch of smart people to see if it would be smart for him to get into MMA. They determined it wasn’t. Have to think that there was something to that research.
3) Where are they going to make money? The only two organizations that have made it work so far are the UFC and Strikeforce. And Strikeforce is putting on amateur fights on their undercards just to make ends meet. SpikeTV, Versus, and Showtime are not an option. ESPN already had the chance on them and passed it up. HBO wasn’t willing to take the UFC, which means they certainly aren’t going to take an organization 2 levels down. They have a high quality reputation to uphold. Really, there is no end game for them. The only chance is if Strikeforce messes up and Bellator gets their slot. That is highly unlikely.
So how are they going to stick around? From tiny casino payouts and getting some small percentage of commercial money on 3rd rate channels or timeslots?
If you are going to invest in something…. At least make sure there is a way for them to make a profit in the end. There is almost certainly not going to happen with Bellator.
Every business ever has the odds of turning a profit greatly against you. Yet all businesses believe the failed businesses just didn’t know what they’re doing but they do so they’ll be different. Why does this surprise you?
I am certain part of the rebuttal against Shane getting into MMA revolved around his carny roots hampering the perceived legitimacy of his fights. It’s among the top reasons why even though he’s well liked with Zuffa they denied his request to join.
A- The belief of all MMA promotions is they will have a star emerge that catches on and elevates the entire company obviously. You seem to think that’s a ridiculous concept. And it is if you only look at very short-term history. But Kimbo, for better or for worse, caught on in a big way without the UFC. Gina Carano caught on in a big way without the UFC. Who’s to say unless they have a crystal ball this can’t happen again? You hope it does, you learn from the many mistakes of your predecessors and take the gamble.
B- Spike, ESPN, Versus, Showtime, CBS and HBO are hardly the only television channels to sign a company.
C- HBO was willing to sign UFC. UFC wasn’t willing to sign with HBO. They also weren’t willing to sign with CBS but it didn’t automatically mean CBS was going to shun the entire idea of MMA if they could get a company to play by their rules and do it significantly cheaper. I doubt Bellator would go on HBO now, but I wouldn’t rule out HBO signing another MMA company forever just because they can’t have the #1.
What other options are there for profitable fighting? Versus, SpikeTV, HBO, Showtime, and ESPN are the only real options. Most stations on cable are not geared towards that 18-34 male demographic which means they have no chance at getting on them. The rest aren’t very good like FSN or MyNetworkTV.
Bellator will not be on HBO. It’s as simple as that.
Kimbo caught on because of CBS. Which still hasn’t really dedicated themselves to MMA because they do a show twice a year and have no long term contract in place with any organization. As soon as the ratings are gone, they are out of the MMA business….
I understand investors take risk on various products and companies. It just doesn’t make sense for MMA and specifically Bellator. There is no end game that makes sense for a profitable company.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/4/6/1408362/is-bellator-live-for-you
Read the responses this interesting post. These are the hardcore fans and they are having to look hard in order to find Bellator on TV.
FSN is horrible for MMA.
The depth of talent required to support both a viable Cruiserweight division and a viable Heavyweight division just is not there yet. Even if the CW division drew a few LHWs, even if they simultaneously upped the HW limit to like 275 so that a few SHWs like Mariusz Pudsziasowski and Antonio Silva didn’t have to sacrifice as much to make HW, there would not be enough talent there. Only just recently has HW become a division where you see a lot of top guys needing to cut weight to make 265, and only just recently has it become deep enough that you need to string together a series of quality wins to get a UFC title shot like in most divisions. And yet it’s still the smallest major division.
It took decades for boxing to implement a CW division where the maximum was 200 lbs. They didn’t have that until 1980. Until then the highest weight class beneath HW, which is still unlimited, was 175 lbs. Even in the 1990s, someone like Lennox Lewis who weighed a bit over 250 lbs. and who was still agile and precise was a rarity. Mike Tyson’s weight at his peak was about 220. Evander Holyfield weighed in at 208 when he first won the HW title.
There are still plenty of huge athletes that could fill out a smaller HW division out there, at least in the United States, but they’re much more likely to go into American football for now. This is an issue that should maybe revisited 5 years from now.
It should be noted that the boxing cruiserweight limit moved in the last 10 years from 190 to 200. Following Holyfield’s departure in the late 1980s, there were no unified titlists in the division from 1989 to 2006 – almost 20 years.
Even with the shift, cruiser is still just a stopover for guys looking to be heavyweights. Of the 5 cruiserweight unified, undisputed, or Ring champions since the change to 200lbs, 4 of them currently campaign as heavyweights – Tomasz Adamek, David Haye, James Toney, and Jean Marc Mormeck. The 5th, O’Neil Bell, was looking to start fighting at heavyweight before suddenly retiring/disappearing.
What ever happened to O’Neil Bell? He dropped off the face of the earth.
I’ve heard zero. Same with everyone else I’ve talked to online or IRL. I’m guessing he’s probably back in Jamaica smoking kush on the beach while his money slowly runs out, a la Trevor Berbick.
Slightly off-topic, but I would be all for the Unified Rules of MMA having a Strawweight class added at 115 lbs. Boxing goes down to 105, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for MMA to go down to 115. I doubt it’d be used much in North America for a while, but in this case I don’t see the harm of it simply being there. They already have a men’s division at 114 lbs. in Shooto.
I don’t particularly have a problem with a cruiserweight division, but it would spell the end of the heavyweight division. Just like there are only three or four guys who can’t or won’t cut to 265, I suspect that there won’t be enough guys left to fight above 225 for a division to be maintained.