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Strikeforce 12/19 HP Pavilion (San Jose Arena)
By Zach Arnold | December 19, 2009
TV: Showtime
Dark matches
- Lightweights (155 pounds): Alex Crispim vs. AJ Fonseca
- Lightweights (155 pounds): Bobby Stack vs. Alex Trevino
- Lightweights (155 pounds): Juan Nunez vs. Luis Mendoza
- Lightweights (155 pounds): Daisuke Nakamura vs. Bryan Travers
- Light Heavyweights (205 pounds): Antwain Britt vs. Scott Lighty
Main card
- Light Heavyweights (205 pounds): King Mo vs. Mike Whitehead
- Middleweights (185 pounds): Robbie Lawler vs.
Trevor Prangley - Middleweights (185 pounds): Scott Smith vs. Cung Le
- Middleweights (185 pounds): Matt Lindland vs. Jacare Souza
- Strikeforce Lightweight title match (155 pounds): Gilbert Melendez vs. Josh Thomson
Topics: Media, MMA, StrikeForce, Zach Arnold | 76 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
I don’t care what Mo or Jacare is ranked, they are both world-class, which is not anything you can say about lots of the fighters on UFC and WEC shows recently.
I don’t know anything about rankings for guys under 155 so I can’t comment on their rankings. My point was in reference to the rankings of guys at 155 or above.
Thompson is ranked low because he has been out of action for a long time, but I think he would beat lots of guys “ranked” above him.
Alan beat me to the punch. How many 135 pounders are there in mma? 40? Who cares. LOL at Jacare being #16 at 185. That’s a joke.
Alan,
So now you are stretching out P4P beyond the Top 10? Comparing Souza and Yahya? What is that, beyond the Top 50 P4P? Talk about stretching it there. Doesn’t need much more comment beyond that….
David M,
“I don’t care what Mo or Jacare is ranked, they are both world-class, which is not anything you can say about lots of the fighters on UFC and WEC shows recently.”
That is how you feel, but there is really no proof of that. Further proving my point of the rosey color glasses people put on when looking at Strikeforce cards. Neither have the wins to prove that. They might be some day, but right now they are prospects…. Nothing more, nothing less. Heck, MAtt Hamill and Jon Jones have done more then Lawal has so far in their careers… And neither of them are even in the Top 10….
UFC 107 had FOUR Top 5 fighters.
UFC 106 had FOUR Top 10 fighters.
UFC 105 had ONE Top 10 fighter.
UFC 104 had TWO Top 10 fighters.
All those show they had more Top talent on their cards then the Strikeforce one.
Let’s even talk the crap that is UFC 108. For as bad as it is… It has FIVE Top 10 fighters.
“Thompson is ranked low because he has been out of action for a long time, but I think he would beat lots of guys “ranked” above him.”
Well, lets look at this. He was dominated by Clay Guida for 5 rounds in Strikeforce. That is his best indicator of how he would handle the upper mid-tier UFC guys. Clay Guida is 5-5 in the UFC. Solid fighter, but pretty much a gatekeeper.
You’ll keep hearing this nonsense about how Strikeforce is inferior because WEC/UFC have a greater percentage of the top 40 ranked fighters according to MMAJizzrag.org. This talking point has really taken hold with a certain type of MMA fan(boy).
WEC put on a typically solid show from what I saw, but it was just another TV date with no main event taking place in a dark 2,000 seat cave. Strikeforce, by comparison, felt like a real event.
So now you are stretching out P4P beyond the Top 10?
Yeah. I am. Yahya isn’t all that talented. Very good grappler as Maia or Jacare are, but totally one dimensional. Proven as such. He might be the 10th or 11th best bantam in the world even after losing because the division is thin.
I think you wouldn’t here this so called “nonsense” if people weren’t claiming that guys like Lawal, Souza, or Thomson are greater then they have proven to be….
And if Fedor fought in front of 5 people, those same people would be justifying it with saying the size of the crowd doesn’t matter, it is the athlete who does…..
And the better athletes were on the WEC card. It’s that simple. Guys who are signed by Strikeforce continue to be overhyped by this pathetic niche fan base who deems anything remotely going against Zuffa to be the new reigning king of MMA….
“Yeah. I am. Yahya isn’t all that talented. Very good grappler as Maia or Jacare are, but totally one dimensional. Proven as such. He might be the 10th or 11th best bantam in the world even after losing because the division is thin.”
The same “thin” division that everybody was raving about a year ago when DREAM put on their “Featherweight Tournament” that was closer in weight class to the 135 pounds limit?
It’s not thin at all. And to compare it to female fighting is even more of a joke. You couldn’t even get legit Top 10 rankings in 3 women’s divisions. Heck, they don’t even know what the divisions are half the time. But I could easily have a Top 30 list of Bantamweight fighters. And it is far more stacked then the Heavyweight Division which everybody claims Fedor as a god over.
I think you wouldn’t here this so called “nonsense” if people weren’t claiming that guys like Lawal, Souza, or Thomson are greater then they have proven to be
These arguments of “relevance” are silly. You can use that same argument to say that the Cyborg/Carano fight made the event based around it more relevant than any UFC event this year outside UFC 100. But I mean, if you want to argue the significance of Scott Jorgenson fighting to Fedor, go ahead.
And let me say this…
People claiming Lawal is world class would be like somebody saying Ryan Bader is World Class after he won The Ultimate Fighter. Or saying Jon Jones is world class after beating Stephan Bonnar. It’s a joke.
The same “thin” division that everybody was raving about a year ago when DREAM put on their “Featherweight Tournament” that was closer in weight class to the 135 pounds limit?
I thought that tournament was filled with Zuffa rejects, 45?
You would have a more competitive 135lb weight class because the difference between #5/6 and #30 is pretty insignificant talent wise. But that’s also because the guys aren’t that great.
“These arguments of “relevance” are silly. You can use that same argument to say that the Cyborg/Carano fight made the event based around it more relevant than any UFC event this year outside UFC 100. But I mean, if you want to argue the significance of Scott Jorgenson fighting to Fedor, go ahead.”
I have never compared a Jorgenson fight to a Fedor fight. Way to try and put words into my mouth.
What I am saying is that crowd size doesn’t matter much in determining what is the more important event. Strikeforce sells a cheap ticket to get as big of a crowd as possible. The UFC sells an extremely high priced ticket for some of their bigger events to get the biggest gate possible. A few of the UFC and WEC cards are done in very small venues to keep costs down. Doesn’t mean they aren’t putting on a higher level of fighting on their cards.
People claiming Lawal is world class would be like somebody saying Ryan Bader is World Class after he won The Ultimate Fighter. Or saying Jon Jones is world class after beating Stephan Bonnar. It’s a joke.
He’s an elite prospect in a glory division. Of the four fighters you’ve got, you have 4 also rans and gatekeepers fighting one another in a shallow division no one cares about.
I have never compared a Jorgenson fight to a Fedor fight. Way to try and put words into my mouth.
You’re arguing that Jorgenson, Yahya, etc. are better athletes and all that. There’s nothing to actually establish that other than rankings within a division that is weak and has little depth. I’m not so convinced.
What I am saying is that crowd size doesn’t matter much in determining what is the more important event.
And we’ve heard endless refutations of that when it came to shows like Tito/Shamrock II and III. There’s no consistency in the response.
One last point: So, Strikeforce headlines with Cung Le/Scott Smith, and they look cheap. WEC headlines with Donald Cerrone/Ed Ratcliff..neither of which is ranked by anyone (Fightmatrix has Cerrone #49!)…what does that say about the WEC’s own self perception of their supposed “top fighters”? They must know something 45 doesn’t.
“He’s an elite prospect in a glory division.”
But so are Jones and Bader… And nobody is claiming they are something they are not right now. See the difference?
“You’re arguing that Jorgenson, Yahya, etc. are better athletes and all that. There’s nothing to actually establish that other than rankings within a division that is weak and has little depth. I’m not so convinced.”
Purely opinion based. The Bantamweight Division has a strong enough talent pool to dispell your claim. It has far more strong depth then the Heavyweight division.
“And we’ve heard endless refutations of that when it came to shows like Tito/Shamrock II and III. There’s no consistency in the response.”
I don’t think I’ve ever commented on the size of the crowds for the Shamrock/Ortiz fights. All I have said is that they were crap MMA.
Your basic logic is that the Bantamweight Division is not very deep and therefore has less meaning. That is really what you are saying in order to justify Strikeforce’s event being treated as a bigger event.
But if you want to use that as an argument… It’s off the mark… But let’s use it for a moment. If the strength of a division is an indicator of it’s importance… Then the MMA Heavyweight Division should be viewed as one of the least important due to how weak it is. Heck, in what other division do you see so many guys with around 10 fights or less filling up the Top 10. Carwin (11), Rogers (11), Dos Santos (10), Cain (7), & Lesnar (5) make up half the Top 10 and all have 11 fights or under. They average less then 9 fights between the five of them. That is pathetically bad. So based on your argument, if the UFC put up a show with Jon Jones, Michael Bisping, Gray Maynard, and Clay Guida…. It should get more attention then a Fedor card….
Your logic is fantastic….
WEC and UFC have a long history of putting their title fights at the top of their cards. The last WEC did not have a title fight, so this was not an issue.
Strikeforce had a title fight that was treated like an ugly step-child for a Cung Le protection fight.
Sorry, but there is too long of a history of Zuffa doing the right thing to really prove that one wrong.
“But so are Jones and Bader… And nobody is claiming they are something they are not right now. See the difference?”
Mo Lawal is a much better athlete than Bader, and the biggest difference is that Lawal has explosive speed and power and finishes people, as opposed to laying on top of them.
As for Jon Jones, he has plenty of hype too. In fact after his fight against Hamill I said he is one of the 5 best 205ers in the world. So now your entire point is moot.
Jacare is one of the most talented grapplers to ever compete in mma, and unlike most other high level jiu jitsu guys we have seen, he is also a beast physically, and seems to have improved his striking as well. Who from the UFC would you pick over him at 185? Anderson probably, maybe Marquardt, and that’s it. He is a better athlete and striker than Maia, and on the ground they cancel each other out.
But so are Jones and Bader… And nobody is claiming they are something they are not right now. See the difference?
What are you arguing about? Jones was the official headliner for the TUF Finale, which was watched by a whole lot more people than any WEC event ever. Bader has been on major PPV and TV undercards for the UFC. They’re clearly more relevant than Yahya.
Purely opinion based.
Exactly. The problem, as has been argued by others including myself, is that the talent runs out at a shallow point. I mean, you are scraping for dudes past the 50/60 mark. Heavyweights might have more lousy fighters, but they have more fighters. Disparities in talent will be more evident when you have a larger sample size.
I don’t think I’ve ever commented on the size of the crowds for the Shamrock/Ortiz fights.
You’ve commented on their importance. What, they don’t matter now? Did MMA media act in an unethical fashion by covering them more than Shooto the same month?
Your basic logic is that the Bantamweight Division is not very deep and therefore has less meaning. That is really what you are saying in order to justify Strikeforce’s event being treated as a bigger event.
That is not my “base logic”. You’re arguing that the WEC was the more important event for MMA because it had more ranked fighters. “Depth of division” is completely ignored, as are other indicators like attendance, TV ratings, live gate, etc, in favor of this singular point. Of course, that argument is something you’re willing to throw out for women’s MMA, based on a set of not-so-well-defined criteria.
Strikeforce now has ufc champion Dan Henderson!
“What I am saying is that crowd size doesn’t matter much in determining what is the more important event.”
So did we all imagine 3 years of BIZ BIZ BIZ BIZ? And imagine 3 years of you defending rap fights because they were better for BIZ?
*crap fights
45 Huddle is a blowhard idiot. Throw another hissy fit and go back to your cave.
good fights on Strikeforce. too bad about Lindland, at one time he was an elite level fighter at 185. Bustamante exposed him in their fight, but Lindland has submitted top level BJJ BB’s when he was in his prime.
Strikeforce’s problem is they don’t have a deep rooster. They have a few top level fighters, Fedor, Mousai, Henderson, Shileds (at 170lbs not 185),etc and some good prospects Jacare, Mo, Woodley, etc. Insipte of that, last night’s card was good. If they putting on more frequent events, let’s see how things shake out with their matchmaking. I think they will hae the sames issues that the UFC has had with too many cards, and given what happened with the Robbie Lawler fight, they can’t withstand any injuries from disrupting their cards.
Scott Smith is way underrated. The trainers at Faritex in Bangplee told me he hits like a truck and everything is extremely hard, kicks, elbows, knees, etc. Tough dude, and more skilled then you give him credit for. Cung Le may have been quicker and put on a show, but got beat by a tougher fighter in the end.
I would enjoy an 8 man tournament
Dan v Frank
Cung v Jacare
Meyhem v The Law
Scott v Trevor
and a Lawler v Cyborg reserve match
“Then the MMA Heavyweight Division should be viewed as one of the least important due to how weak it is. Heck, in what other division do you see so many guys with around 10 fights or less filling up the Top 10. Carwin (11), Rogers (11), Dos Santos (10), Cain (7), & Lesnar (5) make up half the Top 10 and all have 11 fights or under. They average less then 9 fights between the five of them. That is pathetically bad. So based on your argument, if the UFC put up a show with Jon Jones, Michael Bisping, Gray Maynard, and Clay Guida…. It should get more attention then a Fedor card….”
I don’t know how you’re using total number of fights as a criteria for a given weightclasses’ depth when the WEC’s most recognizable champ at this point is Brian Bowles.
Masakatsu Ueda has twelve fights.
Joseph Benavidez has eleven.
But wait, this is a hideously irrelevant criteria thats the result of you conflating multiple meanings of the word ‘important’ and driving this discussion into the ground.
Keishi good point. I often see the terms ‘important’ or ‘relevant’ thrown around here, and in different conversations revolving around either fighter ranking or BIZ.
IMHO to UFC fans the Strikeforce show is clearly more important. You might actually see a number of the guys on the Strikeforce show in the UFC eventually, or at least you may eventually see the Strikeforce guys fighting your fave UFC names if they leave the UFC.
Similarly, a guy like King Mo may go on to do big things (notoriety, marquee matches, UFC?). He also may not, but there is clearly a chance. The same can’t be said about anyone on the WEC card. So to a “super”-casual fan like me there was more importance to his fight than anything on WEC. Those guys may be ranked, but they are either contending for shots against champs I don’t follow, or even worse for a paper belt @ 155.
And Cung Le, like I said not a worldbeater but certainly a bigger attraction stylistically than the WEC main event. To the extent I care about being entertained this made the Strikeforce card more important and relegated the WEC card to DVR material for later in the week.