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Independent World MMA Rankings – December 18, 2009
By Zach Arnold | December 18, 2009
From the office of the Independent World MMA Rankings
December 18, 2009: The December 2009 Independent World MMA Rankings have been released. These rankings are independent of any single MMA media outlet or sanctioning body, and are published on multiple web sites.
In addition to the numerous MMA web sites that publish the Independent World MMA Rankings, you can also access the rankings at any time by going to www.IndependentWorldMMARankings.com.
Some of the best and most knowledgeable MMA writers from across the MMA media landscape have come together to form one independent voting panel. These voting panel members are, in alphabetical order:
Zach Arnold (Fight Opinion);
Nicholas Bailey (MMA Ratings);
Jared Barnes (Freelance);
Jordan Breen (Sherdog);
Jim Genia (Full Contact Fighter, MMA Memories, and MMA Journalist Blog);
Jesse Holland (MMA Mania);
Robert Joyner (Freelance);
Todd Martin (CBS Sportsline);
Jim Murphy (The Savage Science);
Zac Robinson (Sports by the Numbers MMA);
Leland Roling (Bloody Elbow);
Michael David Smith (AOL Fanhouse);
Jonathan Snowden (Heavy.com);
Joshua Stein (MMA Opinion);
Ivan Trembow (Freelance);
and Dave Walsh (Total MMA and Head Kick Legend).
Note: Will Ribeiro is no longer eligible to be ranked, due to the fact that he has not had an MMA fight in over 12 months.
December 2009 Independent World MMA Rankings
Ballots collected on December 15, 2009
Heavyweight Rankings (206 to 265 lbs.)
1. Fedor Emelianenko (31-1, 1 No Contest)
2. Brock Lesnar (4-1)
3. Frank Mir (13-4)
4. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (32-5-1, 1 No Contest)
5. Shane Carwin (11-0)
6. Brett Rogers (10-1)
7. Alistair Overeem (31-11, 1 No Contest)
8. Junior dos Santos (9-1)
9. Cain Velasquez (7-0)
10. Fabricio Werdum (13-4-1)
Light Heavyweight Rankings (186 to 205 lbs.)
1. Lyoto Machida (16-0)
2. Mauricio “Shogun” Rua (18-4)
3. Rashad Evans (13-1-1)
4. Quinton Jackson (30-7)
5. Anderson Silva (25-4)
6. Gegard Mousasi (27-2-1)
7. Forrest Griffin (17-6)
8. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira (18-3)
9. Dan Henderson (25-7)
10. Thiago Silva (14-1)
Middleweight Rankings (171 to 185 lbs.)
1. Anderson Silva (25-4)
2. Nathan Marquardt (29-8-2)
3. Dan Henderson (25-7)
4. Vitor Belfort (19-8)
5. Demian Maia (11-1)
6. Jake Shields (24-4-1)
7. Chael Sonnen (24-10-1)
8. Yushin Okami (23-5)
9. Robbie Lawler (16-5, 1 No Contest)
10. Jorge Santiago (21-8)
Welterweight Rankings (156 to 170 lbs.)
1. Georges St. Pierre (19-2)
2. Jon Fitch (20-3, 1 No Contest)
3. Thiago Alves (16-6)
4. Josh Koscheck (14-4)
5. Dan Hardy (23-6)
6. Matt Hughes (43-7)
7. Paulo Thiago (12-1)
8. Mike Swick (14-3)
9. Carlos Condit (24-5)
10. Marius Zaromskis (13-3)
Lightweight Rankings (146 to 155 lbs.)
1. B.J. Penn (15-5-1)
2. Shinya Aoki (22-4, 1 No Contest)
3. Eddie Alvarez (19-2)
4. Kenny Florian (12-4)
5. Tatsuya Kawajiri (25-5-2)
6. Gray Maynard (8-0, 1 No Contest)
7. Frankie Edgar (11-1)
8. Diego Sanchez (21-3)
9. Joachim Hansen (19-8-1)
10. Mizuto Hirota (12-3-1)
Featherweight Rankings (136 to 145 lbs.)
1. Jose Aldo (16-1)
2. Mike Brown (22-5)
3. Urijah Faber (22-3)
4. Hatsu Hioki (20-4-2)
5. Bibiano Fernandes (7-2)
6. Raphael Assuncao (14-1)
7. “Lion” Takeshi Inoue (17-3)
8. Wagnney Fabiano (12-2)
9. Manny Gamburyan (10-4)
10. Michihiro Omigawa (8-8-1)
Bantamweight Rankings (126 to 135 lbs.)
1. Brian Bowles (8-0)
2. Miguel Torres (37-2)
3. Takeya Mizugaki (12-3-2)
4. Masakatsu Ueda (10-0-2)
5. Dominick Cruz (14-1)
6. Akitoshi Tamura (14-7-2)
7. Joseph Benavidez (10-1)
8. Damacio Page (12-4)
9. Rani Yahya (15-4)
10. Manny Tapia (10-3-1)
The Independent World MMA Rankings are tabulated on a monthly basis in each of the top seven weight classes of MMA, from heavyweight to bantamweight, with fighters receiving ten points for a first-place vote, nine points for a second-place vote, and so on.
The rankings are based purely on the votes of the members of the voting panel, with nobody’s vote counting more than anybody else’s vote, and no computerized voting.
The voters are instructed to vote primarily based on fighters’ actual accomplishments in the cage/ring (the quality of opposition that they’ve actually beaten), not based on a broad, subjective perception of which fighters would theoretically win fantasy match-ups.
Inactivity: Fighters who have not fought in the past 12 months are not eligible to be ranked, and will regain their eligibility the next time they fight.
Disciplinary Suspensions: Fighters who are currently serving disciplinary suspensions, or who have been denied a license for drug test or disciplinary reasons, are not eligible to be ranked.
Changing Weight Classes: When a fighter announces that he is leaving one weight class in order to fight in another weight class, the fighter is not eligible to be ranked in the new weight class until he has his first fight in the new weight class.
Catch Weight Fights: When fights are contested at weights that are in between the limits of the various weight classes, they are considered to be in the higher weight class. The weight limits for each weight class are listed at the top of the rankings for each weight class.
Special thanks to Eric Kamander, Zach Arnold, and Joshua Stein for their invaluable help with this project, and special thanks to Garrett Bailey for designing our logo.
Topics: Media, MMA, Zach Arnold | 38 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
only disagree with Mizugaki at 3. Cruz’s best win over Benavidez is better than Mizugaki’s loss to Torres and should-be loss to Curran.
So if/when Georges St. Pierre defeats Dan Hardy, he’ll have defeated the #2, #3, #4, #5, and #6 ranked guys at Welterweight.
Then what?
I was sort of thinking Anthony Johnson might be in line for a shot in late 2010, but since Koscheck eye-poked him into defeat I don’t think that will be happening any time soon.
Up to Middleweight to fight Anderson Silva? Seems a little unfair since Anderson is basically a heavyweight who cuts to MW, but it would still be a super-fight with a massive PPV buy rate.
Disagree with:
Joachim Hansen still being in the rankings.
Hatsu Hioki still being at #4 after loss.
Zaromskis being in the top 10 over Hornbuckle.
Kawajiri being in the top 10 period.
Mizugaki being ranked over Ueda and Cruz.
HEAVYWEIGHT
–Shane Carwin at #5 is way too high. This is a guy who’s only remotely top-level win is Gabriel Gonzaga.
–Alistair Overeem… you know the drill.
–No Andrei Arlovski in the top 10 is a little weird, especially if Werdum is there.
–Cain Velasquez is a bit overrated here as well.
LIGHT-HEAVYWEIGHT
–Not surprised to see Shogun shoot to #2 off of a loss, but let’s be honest: that is silly.
–Gegard at #6 is pretty much indefensible.
MIDDLEWEIGHT
–Speaking of indefensible, Dan Henderson at #3. On the grounds of which top-level middlweight wins, again?
–Jorge Santiago at #10, but no Mamed Khalidov? Did the “experts” not see that fight?
WELTERWEIGHT
–Paulo Thiago below Josh Koscheck continues to confuse me.
–Come to think of it, how did Dan Hardy end up above Paulo? Other than being declared the UFC #1 contender, that is?
–Don’t see how Zaromskis merits a top 10 slot. (I love Mach too, but c’mon, the guy lost to David Baron before he ever fought Zaromskis.)
LIGHTWEIGHT
–Diego Sanchez is overrated, by seemingly everyone. And I don’t have Mizuto Hirota in the top 10. But other than that, LW is such a mess that it’s actually hard to find fault with rankings sometimes. I have too much sympathy for anybody attempting one.
FEATHERWEIGHT
–It looks like everybody is just pretending Omigawa didn’t beat Hioki? Yeah, I know, bad decision, even Omigawa thought so… but a loss is a loss.
–Speaking of pretending fights didn’t happen, where’s Mackens Semerzier?
–While we’re on the subject, how about Lion Takeshi’s loss to Savant Young?
BANTAMWEIGHT
–Mizugaki is another one of those guys that seemingly everybody overrates. I’m just not a big fan of ranking somebody highly because they put on a good losing performance.
Yea a win over Babalu should definately not send you to #6.
Ill take Hendo at 3 becuase of wins over Franklin Palhares and Bisping.
…it all ends up being opinion and eventhough these are the official independent “world rankings” they hold no more merit to me than Sherdog or Junkies. Still alot better than mmaweekly’s though. They still haven’t figured out that the top competition is in the UFC and not Japan.
Franklin/Henderson was a light-heavyweight fight.
Of course it was I never said it wasn’t. Franklin was the essential #2 mw in the world at the time though.
Henderson vs. Franklin technically took place at Light Heavyweight, but it is one of those fights that I see no problem effecting the Middleweight rankings….
I think JRN’s post is pretty much spot on with all the critisms besides the Henderson one.
I don’t agree that Franklin/Henderson should count at middleweight. Both fighters were allowed to weigh in 20 lbs. heavier than the MW limit for that fight. You won’t find a greater disparity between weight class limits below heavyweight. And weight classes matter, right? They can certainly impact how fighters perform.
Isn’t it the case that Henderson sometimes has conditioning problems at 185? Who’s to say he would have beaten Franklin in an actual middleweight bout, particularly when their light-heavyweight fight was so close?
And besides, Franklin had moved up to 205, supposedly permanently, at this point. Why continue to count his fights at a weight class he abandoned? Wouldn’t the IWMMAR have stopped ranking Franklin at middleweight altogether by the time this fight happened?
It’s just all around silly. I say count fights in the weight classes at which they were actually contested and nowhere else.
I like Brett Rogers okay, but I wouldn’t see him beating any of the people listed after him on there.
Not even Overeem.
But thats only politics, it is what it is. Lesnar hasn’t done enough to be way up there on every HW list either.
It was universally thought at the time that whoever won the 4 man tourney between Couture, Nog, Mir and Lesnar would be the legit #2 HW in the world, since Nog and Couture were in the top 4, and the winner would have bigger wins than any other fighter in contention for that rank (Barnett, AA, etc).
Of course, the dark horses that everyone thought had no chance won both of their fights in the opening rounds, and Brock’s legitimacy is still being challenged despite having better HW wins than anybody you would try to replace him with.
Jake Shields #6 Middleweight?
I guess the reasoning is the guys behind him aren’t that good. What is his body of work at that weight? A makebelieve title fight against a guy who was booked because he had a show on MTV? And that fight wasn’t very good.
Zach, it looks more an more like these rankings are influenced by upcoming matchups. In my opinion so writers who vote here can say #x vs #y. Dan Hardy seems to be Nother pri
e example of this.
JRN, your comments are right on the money but like 45, I disagree with one element of your system: fights should count no matter at what weight class they occurred (if the fighters are themselves ranked at those classes). Since Henderson and Franklin are both ranked at MW, we can’t just pretend the fight between them never happened. It would be absurd to rank someone above a fighter he lost to just because the fight took place at 195 instead of 185…
LOL @ JRN ranking Kenny Florian the #2 LW in the world. Does he even have any top ten wins?
klown, I’m not suggesting we pretend the fight between Henderson and Franklin never happened. I’m suggesting we count it at the weight class at which it actually took place, light-heavyweight.
Again, weight classes matter, and affect the way fighters perform. I don’t think there’s a direct 1-1 correspondence between the way Rich Franklin or Dan Henderson fights at LHW at MW, and so I don’t think we should act as though it doesn’t matter which weight they fought at.
Zack, I’ll admit my LW rankings are a little idiosyncratic. A full explanation of what I’ve attempted to do with them can be found at http://rankingmma.wordpress.com/on-ranking-lightweights/ (not sure if HTML works here, so I didn’t bother trying to link it).
But the short answer to your question is yes, Florian has at least one top-10 win, Roger Huerta. I’m probably the only person in the world who thinks of it that way, but there you go. LOL away!
I would ask, though, whether you are similarly derisive of other folks who have Florian in the top 5 (which is basically everyone).
And also, whether you feel that B.J. Penn deserves his #1 slot. After all, the wins that catapulted him to #1 for almost everyone at LW are Sean Sherk, Joe Stevenson (who Florian beat), and Florian himself.
“But the short answer to your question is yes, Florian has at least one top-10 win, Roger Huerta. I’m probably the only person in the world who thinks of it that way, but there you go. LOL away!
I would ask, though, whether you are similarly derisive of other folks who have Florian in the top 5 (which is basically everyone). ”
Your rankings are a joke, why would I bother reading some weak justification for them? One borderline top 10 win and Florian is #2 in the world? How did Huerta get ranked anyway?
And I have asked on this rankings thread every single time how Florian is listed top 5. No one has been retarded enough to rank him number 2 though.
BJ got his ranking based off of skillset and his old wins over Hughes and Gomi. I didn’t agree with it then, but it was just people trying to give the #1 ranking to the #1 best guy in the world.
One of those roadblock fellows said:
“Jake Shields #6 Middleweight?
I guess the reasoning is the guys behind him aren’t that good. What is his body of work at that weight?”
Wins over two top 10 staples in Okami (at 175) and Lawler along with the win over Mayhem (former top 10 and still a decent win on one’s resume) make me think 5 or 6 is about the right place for him and is about where i placed him on my ballot
If the argument against Shields is that he’s a one dimensional grappler who hasn’t really beaten anyone, then what is the argument for Demian Maia?
There’s some smoke and mirrors being played there. Okami was highly ranked, but the best guy he beat was probably Swick (preemptive lol at anyone who says Anderson Silva). Lawler’s best victory was who? Trigg? Smith? Swick, Trigg and Smith couldn’t beat a top WW, much less a top MW.
So guys get high rankings for having momentum despite not having great opposition, and now someone else beats them and that new guy inherits their questionable ranking.
Jorge Santiago is another one. He gets momentum after losing to Belcher and Leben, only beats one good opponent during that time (Misaki). I was sure his recent loss would drop him out though. Maybe nobody knows about it?
I hereby call this the Denis Kang effect, in honor of the worst fighter to ever con his way to a top ranking by getting a large winning streak beating bad fighters.
No one below #4 has a signature win even remotely close to what the guys above that threshold have. Seriously, either we accept that these guys are among the best middleweights in the world or we’re keeping Murilo Bustamante up there until he comes back to MMA and fights again.
Robert, I’m asking why the ranking at 185? His body of work is at 170.
icemuncher, don’t fling your poo my way … you can sit there and play that game with anyone you want… take a look at Nate Marquardt’s list of ufc victims… wins over a bunch of non-factors, his most impressive win in my eyes being over a Maia who’s stand up is abominable. but despite joe silva having his head up his ass and never booking Nate against Rich, Hendo or Okami…. i still think Nate is in the 2 or 3 range…
but hey, glad you’ve got everything all figured out for us….
Icemuncher,
Brock was favored against Couture. And realistically, is beating Randy, Mir, and Herring really more impressive than Rizzo, Yvel, and Monson? It’s probably about the same, but if the guy who beat of those trios was more highly rated to begin with, how does he get passed by the other guy? Especially if the other guy has a loss immediately preceding that run. But, OK, Josh is ineligible. Nog’s record since coming to the UFC and before coming to the UFC is also better than Brock’s. They lost to the same guy, and beat the same guys except Brock beat Mir and Nog beat Sylvia, who, despite the head-to-head loss, is clearly better than Mir.
People definitely put too much into long winning streaks. It’s all about quality of opponents. If one guy wins 10 fights in a row but only beats 1 legit Top 10 guy, that doesn’t mean as much as a guy who goes 2-2 and loses the the #1 & #2 guys but beats the #4 & #5 guys. That makes that fighter the #3 ranked in his weight class….
I have typically called it an anti-Zuffa bias, mostly because the level of competition in the UFC is much higher and fighters are often penalized for losing those tough fights. Yet a fighter like Alistair Overeem, who fights no tough competition in MMA over the last 2+ years, continues to benefit from it. This is just one of the many examples over a long period of these bad rankings.
Mousasi is a great fighter, but his best win over Babalu does not make him #6 in the world.
Robert, I’m asking why the ranking at 185? His body of work is at 170.
I think he made this clear; Wins over Okami and Lawler over 170 lbs. I don’t necessarily disagree with him. Honestly, 185’s depth is terrible. If you want to argue that Couture would still be a top 10 heavyweight right now if he committed to that weight class, you can easily say that Lindland is a top 10 middleweight using the same criteria.
Zack, if you’re not interested in reading “weak-ass justifications,” then I suppose I won’t bother to answer any more of your questions. The answers are in the link I provided, if you’re ever curious.
I do appreciate your answering mine, though, and there is certainly something to be said for consistency.
lol I always love the fallout from theses.
JRN has his own mathematical algorithm, everything outside of that system is inherently wrong. Ok.
45 won’t be happy until the anti-Zuffa bias is addressed and there are two sets of rankings for everything; UFC and Everybody else.
Roadblock does his roundabout trolling under the guise of pseudo-thoughtful responses.
Oh as the world turns.
actually I missed Kenny Florian at #4. Florian is MAYBE top 10. He still hasn’t beaten a fighter that can fight his way out of a paper bag. Of course most of that talent at LW isn’t in the UFC but he’s not as good as Griffen, Sherk, Edgar or Maynard in the UFC. So actually. No he’s not top 10 as BJ, Griffen, Sherk, Edgar, Maynard, Thompson, Melendez, Aoki, Kawajiri, Eddie Alvarez would all beat him… Kikuno likely would also as well as possibly Gomi. He is probably top 15 though.
Alan, I read Robert’s response. In my opinion he makes it quite clear that he shouldn’t have a vote in such affairs.
A win in a welterweight tournament over Yushin Okami from 2006 gets factored in. That’s not very intelligent. The Mayhem fight should have no bearing on 185 whether it was a title fight or not. Jacare should be rated above Shields if you want to put stock in Mayhem. Lawler is on that list for name value only.
“JRN has his own mathematical algorithm, everything outside of that system is inherently wrong. Ok.”
C’mon Dave, there’s nothing REMOTELY mathematical about what I do.
(And on a more serious note you’re probably not interested in, I don’t just point out everything that diverges in any way from what I have, only those things that I don’t think are at all reasonable. Like Wagnney Fabiano ahead of the guy that just beat him in his last fight.)
A win in a welterweight tournament over Yushin Okami from 2006 gets factored in. That’s not very intelligent. The Mayhem fight should have no bearing on 185 whether it was a title fight or not. Jacare should be rated above Shields if you want to put stock in Mayhem. Lawler is on that list for name value only.
Everyone is on that list for “name value only” from 5 down. That’s irrelevant. The next tier of fighter in the UFC from Belfort are Maia and Sonnen (both of which have been exposed). Do they really deserve to be way above Lawler or Jacare? Next down after that is Okami, Dan Miller, and Bisping. Again: Do they deserve to be ranked well above Lawler or Jacare? If so, any good reason why? I’m not seeing it.
Maia beat Sonnen, Sonnen beat Filho, Filho beat Misaki, Misaki beat Henderson.
Lawler’s best win is Trigg, which is a good win only because Trigg was the next to beat Misaki after Filho.
(So I do disagree that he was ever ranked high for “name value only”–name value may have played a role, as it often does, but his resume isn’t barren.)
Jacare’s best win is now Matt Lindland, but before this it was Mayhem, whose best win is probably Lawler. But that was before Lawler beat Trigg, i.e. before Lawler had a middleweight win better than Falaniko Vitale.
From this, it seems like a Maia > Sonnen > Filho > Shields (for beating Lawler) > Lawler/Jacare hierarchy seems reasonable.
The case for Okami rests mainly on beating Mike Swick right after Mike Swick beat David Loiseau right after Loiseau got his title shot against Franklin. Still, it’s better than anything Jacare’s done.
It gets a little more complicated when you think about where Lawler should go after losing to a debuting middleweight, where Henderson and Trigg and and Misaki should go, etc. but I don’t think it’s that hard to see why Maia, Sonnen, and Okami deserve to be above Lawler and Jacare.
As for Dan Miller and Bisping, yeah, they’re right down there with Jacare somewhere.
The case for Okami rests mainly on beating Mike Swick right after Mike Swick beat David Loiseau right after Loiseau got his title shot against Franklin. Still, it’s better than anything Jacare’s done.
Is it really? All because Loiseau got a title shot he barely deserved? Its not like he was the #2 (or 3, or 4) middleweight in the world back in early 2006. And heck, if a bunch of guys can’t move up because Mayhem and Trigg competed at 170 at various times, why the pass for Okami in beating Swick (a middling welterweight)?
This is totally arbitrary, which is basically my point. Its slotting guys that are all about the same. Its like you guys are complaining about how someone set up pawns on a chessboard and prefer them be placed on the squares one by one, right to left.
“if a bunch of guys can’t move up because Mayhem and Trigg competed at 170 at various times, why the pass for Okami in beating Swick (a middling welterweight)?”
I sure don’t advocate anything like this.
“This is totally arbitrary, which is basically my point. Its slotting guys that are all about the same.”
Do you think the rest of the stuff I mentioned, outside of Okami, is equally arbitrary?
Also, do you disagree that Mike Swick is a better middleweight win than any of Jacare’s, prior to (maybe) Matt Lindland?
They might all be roughly the same in terms of ability, but I think certain gaps in accomplishment are fairly evident.
Do you think the rest of the stuff I mentioned, outside of Okami, is equally arbitrary?
You remark about the apparent minimal value of the stated fights, but there’s nothing offering context versus the UFC names. Using Sonnen as an example; There’s no context given in his win over Filho. Rather, its as if its a pure math problem that eradicates all of Sonnen’s previous performances in a single win over a guy who didn’t even make the weight class. By virtue of that single, all encompassing win over a weight missing drug addict, Maia is a top 5 middleweight in beating a guy who openly admits he doesn’t train to defend submissions. Nothing objective there. Subjective inclusion/exclusion of facts.
Also, do you disagree that Mike Swick is a better middleweight win than any of Jacare’s, prior to (maybe) Matt Lindland?
What has Mike Swick done that’s more impressive than Miller? Mike Swick beat up a guy that was beat up by then champion/now mere contender with the expansion of the UFC’s roster, whereas Miller was beaten up by a future dominant champion. Is there some gulf in talent that is established there that I don’t see?
To me, Sonnen saying he doesn’t train to defend submissions is the sort of thing that has no place in considering where he should be ranked. If it’s reflected in his performances–as it often is–then it will count against him. But why should I care what he says in interviews?
As far as career context for Sonnen goes, at the time he beat Filho (who was undefeated) Sonnen was 7-2 at middleweight in the past three years, with his only losses coming to Jeremy Horn over two years prior, and Filho himself.
What about any of that is supposed to mitigate the significance of the win? That Filho didn’t make weight, and had personal problems? Sonnen made the weight, and Filho took the fight, so why hold Filho’s mistakes against Sonnen?
To me, the relevant considerations are these: Filho was an undefeated top 10 middleweight, Sonnen was a guy with recent bad losses holding him down in this weight division, and Sonnen won. That alone, that “signature win,” to use your words, clearly places him above the likes of Jacare and Robbie Lawler for ranking purposes.
Like you said, middleweight doesn’t have a lot of depth. So single fights often play a big role in determining who belongs above who.
In all this, I think I’m being pretty clear about which facts I think merit inclusion: wins and losses in the relevant weight class, over a reasonable stretch (three years being my preferred timespan), up to the point at which the fight in question took place (no after-the-fact revision).
What has Mike Swick done that’s more impressive than Miller? Mike Swick beat up a guy that was beat up by then champion/now mere contender with the expansion of the UFC’s roster, whereas Miller was beaten up by a future dominant champion. Is there some gulf in talent that is established there that I don’t see?
You might want to read over the guidelines for the very rankings we’re commenting on:
The voters are instructed to vote primarily based on fighters’ actual accomplishments in the cage/ring (the quality of opposition that they’ve actually beaten), not based on a broad, subjective perception of which fighters would theoretically win fantasy match-ups.
Whatever gulf in talent, or lack thereof, exists between Jason Miller and Mike Swick at middleweight is irrelevant by itself. It’s about what they’ve actually done with the talent they have. And I think Swick’s run at middleweight, topped off with the signature win over Loiseau, beats out anything Miller has done.
As far as career context for Sonnen goes, at the time he beat Filho (who was undefeated) Sonnen was 7-2 at middleweight in the past three years, with his only losses coming to Jeremy Horn over two years prior, and Filho himself.
Again: Filho was a mess and fell in most everyone’s rankings a great deal after that performance against Sonnen (a career journeyman). Horn is a journeyman also. The 7 wins were against no names more obscure than the fighters you deride from the records of Miller, Lawler, etc. So much for objectivity. You’re picking and choosing to back up your narrative. ITs cute, really.
To me, the relevant considerations are these: Filho was an undefeated top 10 middleweight, Sonnen was a guy with recent bad losses holding him down in this weight division, and Sonnen won. That alone, that “signature win,” to use your words, clearly places him above the likes of Jacare and Robbie Lawler for ranking purposes.
“top 10”: Care to clarify? Where should Filho have been ranked going into that fight with Sonnen? It must be pretty damn high, given the rub its somehow given Maia.
Accidentally hit “submit”:
The voters are instructed to vote primarily based on fighters’ actual accomplishments in the cage/ring (the quality of opposition that they’ve actually beaten),
Which brings me back to Okami and your ranking of him. You admit its based off of Swick, who had no particularly relevant wins at middleweight. You attempt to create one out of Loiseau, but seem skittish about even trying to do that. What you’re really saying is that Swick had “potential” that people ranked him off of, not that he had some sort of great win. His win over a guy who got a title shot he never really deserved proves nothing, and you seem cognizant of it, but refuse to admit that in the midst of your angry replies about how irrational other people’s rankings are. Again: Cute. Funny, even!