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UFC 10/24 Staples Center (Los Angeles)

By Zach Arnold | October 24, 2009

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Event reports: Observer | OC Register | USA Today | Sherdog | MMA Torch | Bloody Elbow | Yahoo Sports | MMA Junkie

Dark matches

Heavyweights: Stefan Struve vs. Chase Gormley
Light Heavyweights: Kyle Kingsbury vs. Razak Al-Hassan
Light Heavyweights: Ryan Bader vs. Eric Schafer
Middleweights: Jorge Rivera vs. Rob Kimmons
Middleweights: Yushin Okami vs. Chael Sonnen
Heavyweights: Antoni Hardonk vs. Pat Barry

Main card

Welterweights: Anthony “Rumble” Johnson vs. Yoshiyuki Yoshida
Lightweights: Joe “Daddy” Stevenson vs. Spencer Fisher
Lightweights: Gleison Tibau vs. Josh Neer
Heavyweights: Cain Velasquez vs. Ben Rothwell
UFC Light Heavyweight Championship: Lyoto Machida vs. Mauricio Shogun

Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 148 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

148 Responses to “UFC 10/24 Staples Center (Los Angeles)”

  1. klown says:

    Major overreaction alert.

    Me, all 3 judges, and a small but vocal minority of fans scored the first 3 rounds for Machida, although anyone can acknowledge the first 3 rounds were close enough to be scored differently.

    There’s definitely a case to be made that people were swayed by the commentary. I haven’t heard it myself since I watched the fights in a loud bar in Toronto. I will re-watch soon with audio on and see how it changes my opinion, if at all.

    As for the live audience, I believe they intuitively judged the fight PRIDE-style. Overall Rua seemed dominant, especially because he picked up steam as the fight went on while Machida seemed to fade. However, using the 10-point must system, it’s entirely possible to dominate the last two rounds but still lose the fight.
    I wouldn’t mention this fight in the same breath as Bisping-Hammill!

    Finally, regardless how the fight was scored, the moral victory goes to Rua for absorbing Machida’s attack and going 5 rounds with him. Machida’s performance was disappointing enough that no fighter will again approach him with trepidation (as Evans did, for example). So, as a fan, it’s possible to believe Machida won on the scorecards and still be disappointed by his performance enough to boo him and to cheer on Rua for his strong performance.

  2. Mark says:

    Entire night on the main card was as expected. Only fight that surprised me on the whole show was Hardonk/Berry. Most everyone won and didn’t show me any growth in doing so. Sonnen is still a gatekeeper, Cain is still too wild, Bader looks like he’s chasing bonuses, Joe Stevenson is still a one trick pony, and the need for Machida to be exciting ended when the belt got put on him. Felt like every lame-o HBO PPV that shouldn’t have been a PPV that I’ve suffered through in my life.

    Alan sums it all up.

    Shogun won, but this fight was bad so I doubt enough fans, who didn’t really care about seeing it the first time, want to see the rematch to rush it. They’ll fight again, but Ortiz and Evans will get rematches first and even Randy would probably jump ahead of a Shogun rematch just because it wouldn’t sell. Yes, fans believing a fighter got robbed gets interest for a rematch. But you have to meet them half way by giving them a compelling fight the first time. I mean, what kind of highlights can you run to hype it exactly?

    If you have to edit booing out of the clips, don’t rush the rematch. It’s probably in the “Fight Promoter’s 10 Commandments.” Along with “Thou Shant Pay Shit.”

  3. liger05 says:

    I dont see how Machida won the first 3 rounds.

  4. Mark says:

    Dana is now saying he wants to do a rematch ASAP. But following through is another story, as Dana says a lot of things. He very well may, but 2 months down the road is another story. Fans will cool off their heated opinions that Shogun got screwed and move on to debating whatever the next big MMA news story is, Rashad is going to claim #1 contendership since he was promised it and the Rampage fight fell through, the winner of Ortiz-Griffin is also going to claim a number one contendership. And both of those fights are more lucrative than Shogun-Machida II will be so that always sways Zuffa.

    It would be one thing if you had a fight like Griffin-Jackson, but you had a legkick war that was only slightly more entertaining than Sylvia-Arlovski III. I say slightly because when you watch it live you’re excited thinking “Oh my God, Shogun is going to win”, watching it again will not be fun. The only usable clip for intrigue is the decision being read. That’s going to make for a very short edition of Countdown. But he may be swayed by the online fans and do it in February. But my opinion is he won’t.

  5. 45 Huddle says:

    White is in a perfect position to do a rematch right now. They don’t have a clear cut #1 contender. This is the only fight that makes sense.

  6. 45 Huddle says:

    The best part about the Shogun/Machida fight is that people no longer think of Machida as invincible. That is great. Why? Because too many fans were already including Machida in there with Silva and GSP as unbeatable champions and they deemed all future title fights pointless as a result of this opinion.

    I am interested in seeing how future fighters use this fight to try and not only figure out Machida, but to perhaps get the KO….

    Either way, they should do this rematch in February or March 2010.

  7. Mark says:

    Maybe. They would have to be ready by December I think for it to be a lock. Dana’s mouth runs on emotion rather than thought so he’ll take a hardline stance and then change his opinion a week from now and forget he said it. And also it will depend on what buyrate this got: if this did 300,000 as lots of people predict and you know running Ortiz-Machida II will do triple that possibly so that would skewer your view in DA BIZ mode. But at the same time, if we’re all wrong and this was a sleeper show then absolutely Shogun would get first dibs. I really doubt it though.

    Remember he also endorsed an immediate rematch between GSP and Penn after the vaseline incident. Remember how emotional the entire internet MMA community was for 2 weeks? Now nobody even remembers the vaseline and nobody wants to see the fight again. I do not believe with such a poor performance by both men 2 weeks from now people are going to want the judges’ heads on a platter about it. Also, we’re looking at the hardcore fan bubble perspective of it. Do the casuals give a crap since neither man fought their heart out exactly is a good question.

  8. 45 Huddle says:

    If not Machida/Rua 2, then what else? I do agree that a rematch isn’t going to get huge PPV buys… But what other choice do they have? Not much…. There is a lot of talent in the Light Heavyweight Division… But it has either already lost to Machida or is about 2 or 3 fights away from getting a title shot (Jones & Bader).

  9. Mark says:

    I already wrote what the two alternatives are going to be. The biggest one is Rashad Evans was promised he’d get a rematch with Machida if he beat Rampage (or Rampage would get a LHW shot if he beat Evans) Now that Evans is gone, he’s still going to believe since that wasn’t his fault his next win will qualify him as #1 contender. Also if Ortiz beats Griffin it’s going to be very tempting to hotshot him a title shot since that fight, if Ortiz looks halfway decent, combined with people now wondering if Machida is really unbeatable would do 800-900,000 buys so that’s going to be incredibly tempting. And if Griffin beats Ortiz you would also be tempted to hotshot that fight as well since it would do not as well as Tito but far better than Rua. And then there’s the wildcard of Randy Couture winning in November and wanting to not risk him getting demolished by a real contender before fighting Machida for that big buy rate. I think that’s not likely but never say never. It would be the last bit of juice you could squeeze out of Randy as a draw.

  10. Ultimo Santa says:

    On Sherdog: Who won on your scorecard?

    Lyoto Machida – 18%
    Mauricio “Shogun” Rua – 82%

    9539 vote(s)

  11. Brad Wharton says:

    It makes sense but will it sell? In a dream world this would be a Spike TV event…but can they afford to give away a fight of this calibre of fight at a time when they’re strapped for main eventers.

    The only way I see an immidiate rematch going down is is they get Ortiz-Coleman and maybe Henderson Marquardt on the undercard for the Superbowl weekend show.

  12. The Gaijin says:

    What a bullshit robbery…49-46 for Shogun. The real #1 205er in the world…glad he was able to show that he’s worthy of all the hype he received against the “unbeatable, invincible” Machida.

    What a joke.

  13. 45 Huddle says:

    If Ortiz wins his next fight…. They could easily do a co-main event with Machida/Rua 2 and Ortiz vs. Jones or Evans/Silva as the co-main event. That would do at leas 500,000 PPV’s… And it can be hyped up as the winners fighting each other….

  14. Mark says:

    That’s quite a bit of hyperbole. Most people weren’t willing to call Shogun the #1 LHW in the world in 2005 when he arguably deserved it for winning PRIDE’s Grand Prix while Wanderlei was incredibly unimpressive against Arona twice and Liddell was being the most protected fighter on the planet for the next year-plus. So now a lousy performance against Coleman, knocking out washed-up-Chuck and a bland legkick marathon makes him the premiere LHW overnight? I don’t know about that. Let’s see if he can do it again in the rematch first.

  15. ttt says:

    going by fightmetric stats, almost all statistics were even except power kicks where shogun killed machida

  16. Anders L. says:

    Ultimo Santa,

    No suprise, anyone who knows anything about mma had shogun winning that fight.

    And that was Shogun with limited capabilities, imagine soccer kicks, stomps and he all those other goddies.

    Anyway, i give it two more fight for Shogun, then we have new lhw champion, for sure.

  17. klown says:

    klown’s LHW Top 25

    1. Machida
    2. A. Silva
    3. Evans
    4. Griffin
    5. Jackson
    6. Henderson
    7. Rua
    8. Liddell
    9. Franklin
    10. W.Silva
    11. T.Silva
    12. Jardine
    13. Ortiz
    14. Jones
    15. Coleman
    16. Bonnar
    17. Irvin
    18. Bader
    19. Shafer
    20. Alexander
    21. Musasi
    22. Sobral
    23. Cane
    24. Sokoudjou
    25. Nogueira

  18. MK says:

    The overreaction is comical, only the 5th round was clear. Even if you think Shogun won the fight it was still very close. A lot of people were influenced by Shoguns very strong finish and the UFC commentary which was awful. In every exchange Rogan was only calling Shogun’s strikes.

    This is similar to the reaction for the Dirrel-Froch boxing fight last weekend, that fight had a more clear winner and it was still not a robbery.

    If we ever get a real highway robbery in the UFC, the fandom will explode. It seems too many close fights are being called robberies or maybe i’m just too jaded.

  19. The Gaijin says:

    No hyperbole. Shogun outclassed Machida and clearly showed he was adept enough to run the perfect gameplan to defeat Machida.

    Machida was the heavy favourite and everyone’s #1 and he got owned. How you don’t call Shogun the #1 LHW after that, bullshit decision or not, is bewildering.

  20. Alan Conceicao says:

    Ehhh, there’s like 1A through 1E now. No one clearly separates themselves. The one guy who could fights at a weight class below and wants to fight Roy Jones more than he does anyone at the top of the division.

  21. Mark says:

    Well, for starters whether you agree with the decision or not, what’s in the record books counts (record possession is 9/10ths of the law?) so that right there disqualifies a change in #1 status. If you want to give Shogun your personal moral victory for the #1 spot, then great. But it would be ridiculous if in the rankings next week he’s really #1.

    As for it being hyperbole. I don’t see how anyone can be anything but completely apathetic about this fight as a whole. Even if Machida legitimately earned the decision with the same kind of performance it would be nothing to brag about. If Shogun fought his heart out, gave Machida everything he had in his arsenal and still lost on a screwjob then I would be outraged. I’m not going to advocate the 2nd Los Angeles Riot because he didn’t get credited enough for simply legkicking Machida more than he legkicked him; neither man attempted to finish the other. He definitely should have been awarded the decision, but since he hardly gave it his all I’m not about to cry a river for him. Bring back your killer instinct next time, Mr. Rua. Outside of bruising up his leg, Shogun never had Machida in any kind of danger and he used to be a real killer prior to Coleman hurting him.

    And I still look at it like this: in 2005 Ricardo Arona beat Wanderlei Silva, but nobody seriously demanded he be ranked #1 over him because the fight was awful. And an hour later when Shogun beat Arona nobody pushed for him to be #1 because he beat the guy who beat the guy who was #1. Instead, Shogun was ranked either #2 or #3 (depending on where Liddell was ranked) and Arona was #4. And that was the peak of Shogun’s career, so I’m not about to garner signatures for a petition now after that cautious stinker last night.

    And he damn sure didn’t solve Machida’s puzzle, Machida had an off night. Leg kicks aren’t the answer. It’s not like every fighter who throws legkicks and midkicks is going to beat him now.

  22. 45 Huddle says:

    It always surprised me how much Wanderlei Silva love their was that Shogun was never ranked above him, even after having won the 2005 GP.

    I had Shogun & Liddell tied for #1 from August 2005 until Liddell lost to Rampage. At that point, I had Shogun at #1 (since he already owned a win over Rampage) until he lost to Griffin. From there, the UFC Light Heavyweight belt become the #1 title with the Rampahe vs. Griffin fight…

    With all the top guys at LHW in the UFC, I don’t see the purpose of debating the rankings much. Shogun was a solid challenger, and he will be again if they have a rematch. That won’t change whether he is ranked #1, #2, #5, or even just in the Top 10.

  23. Alan Conceicao says:

    Machida didn’t have a “off night”. The majority of his career has looked like that. People just pretend differently because of the prior two fights.

  24. Fluyid says:

    Very early word from a couple of guys in the industry that I speak to from time to time tell me that the trends are looking at around 1.35 million PPV buys for this show.

    Just kidding. I didn’t see the fights that weren’t on Spike and I’m feeling left out.

    As for Machida, I remember people on here stating emphatically that no one was going to beat him for years (or something to that effect). I guess this helps remind all of us that a transcendent fighter of that caliber rarely comes along, and we all might tend to get caught up from time to time in pronouncing someone the next great thing.

  25. The Gaijin says:

    He fought the fight he needed to fight…people saying “he didn’t finish him”, “he didn’t show killer instinct” – are effin retarded…going full steam ahead at him plays right into Machida’s game and leads to looking up at the lights. Why the fuck would he barge right in on Machida? Because that’s how Machida wins? Stupid.

    And to say he out leg kicked him is just as dumb. He methodically picked him apart…he totally destroyed his ribs, just lit him up to the point that he looked redder than Mark Coleman after a tanning bed binge. Machida was totally worn out and had no answer for Shogun’s gameplan.

    Funny that Machida was getting everyone’s verbal blowjob for being an elusive, smart fighter – but then has someone who turned the tables on him and the apologists are saying, “well he probably won the fight…but it’s not like it was exciting so who cares!?”.

    Whatever.

  26. Mark says:

    Well if leaving it up to the judges that closely is the only way to beat Machida, then I like his chances of keeping the belt more than before. You can’t leave it up to the judges, especially when you’ve got both Cecil Peoples and Nelson Hamilton judging. I just find it funny that in a fight nobody has any emotional investment in like Henderson-Cerrone everybody browbeats them for leaving it up to the judges hands, but in a fight featuring one of their favorite fighters in a fight that’s even less definitive than that one going 5 rounds is a good win strategy.

    And now if leg kicks are his only hope, he just tipped his hand for the rematch and Machida has 2-4 months to train for it. Machida wins the rematch. (Man, I sound like a real fanboy and I don’t mean to honestly.)

  27. 45 Huddle says:

    I am re-watching the fight.

    Round 1 – Rua. Close, but still I don’t see any way that Machida could have won that round.

    Round 2 – Machida. The commentators were horrible this round. Completely missed the strikes that Machida was connecting with and highlighting Rua’s missed strikes.

    Round 3 – Machida. Once again, horrible job by Rogan and Goldberg. Machida had the better flurries during the round.

    Round 4 – Rua. The leg kicks he was landing were the hardest strikes of the round.

    Round 5 – Rua. Once again, those leg kicks were the hardest strikes of the round.

    That is 4 rounds to 1 for Shogun. The 1st round was the hardest to score, so at best, Shogun only won 3 rounds. Plainly stated, it was a bad decision. Not sure about robbery, but those judges either weren’t counting leg kicks or just don’t know how to score a fight. The biggest indicator is how weak Machida looked by round 4. And it wasn’t just from cardio. It was from the continued strikes he was taking.

    The blueprint on how to beat Machida during a 5 round fight has been drafted by Shogun….

    Lots of good leg kicks for the first 3 rounds. And then fully attack once Machida is tired and can’t be as elusive. Shogun didn’t do this exactly. He wasn’t aggressive enough with his leg kicks for the first 3 rounds, and didn’t force the fight enough during rounds 4 and 5.

    But Machida is very beatable using that strategy. The combination of making his legs weak with good leg kicks and Machida’s lack of great cardio make it unlikely he will be a long term champion like Silva, GSP, or Penn.

    And Shogun will absolutely win a rematch if it happens in early 2010. He mentally beat Machida in that fight. That is something that is nearly impossible to overcome with instant rematches.

  28. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    45, go back and look at your assessment again, your rounds are three to two, and you have one that you’re calling a toossup that you’re counting for Rua.

    For all the “destruction” with those “leg and body kicks” Machida sure wasn’t limping around in the last round. He had a nice red mark on his side — as did Rua — but his mobility in reference to his opponent was not significantly degraded.

    The only guy who has won a title fight based on leg kicks alone was Griffin, and he didn’t get to keep his title long.

  29. Mark says:

    Heh, 45 doesn’t even like reading 45 apparently.

    People are acting like the leg kicks were like Cro Cop temporarily crippling Yoshida until he gave up. It was nothing like that.

    And you don’t think Machida is going to be ready for leg kicks in 2010? Like there’s no way to avoid them? He probably thought going in Shogun was going to try to clinch him. Now he knows. Mentally defeated? If anything Shogun is going to try to finish more recklessly when he thinks he has a shot of ending the fight and leave himself open for counterstrikes.

  30. Mark says:

    Since I’m watching football I’ll use that for an example: the team you’re playing uses a strategy to score but it gets called back. Most of the time they either use a different strategy that doesn’t work as well or you know exactly what they’re going to do and are ready for it. Either way, don’t put all your eggs in the legkick basket, Shogunners.

  31. 45 Huddle says:

    A leg kick counts just as much as a punch.

    And for you to complain about Shogun putting everything into the legkick basket…. Didn’t Machida basically do the same thing with punches? He didn’t go for a takedown. He didn’t throw basically any kicks. Outside of a few knees, he was throwing only his hands.

    I didn’t have anything financially or emotionally vested into this fight. I like both of them about equally. But Machida lost that fight. You don’t have to be limping for the strikes to be effective. His side and his legs were beat red. The leg kicks physically took the fight out of him for those later rounds.

  32. IceMuncher says:

    It was a close fight, but I had Shogun winning 3-2. I’m having a real hard time trying to care though. Each guy was only landing like 10 strikes per round, that’s leaving too much subjectivity when it goes to the judges.

  33. Double J. says:

    It was a good fight that could have went either way. Each round was closely fought. But in the end, you need a KO or display overwhelming dominance to take the title away from Machida. In the end, Rua didn’t do enough to convince the judges or many fans of a decisive victory.

    The commentating on this fight was laughable at best. As happened many times in the past, especially in boxing, TV commentators can skew the viewers into thinking a given fighter is winning or dominating a fight.

    A good example is the Holyfield-Lewis 2 title fight in 1999. The commentators were heavily biased toward Holyfield winning the fight, even through Lewis was outpointing him throughout the fight. Lewis got a unanimous decision and deserved the title.

  34. 45 Huddle says:


    –Just for the record, everyone near me at press row scored the fight for Shogun Rua. When they announced the winner, I had 0% doubt in my mind Shogun was winning the title. Shogun and his corner believed he had won all five rounds, and there were people who had that opinion at press row, although most had it 49-46 or 48-47 for Rua. Several people were already writing articles on Shogun having won the title. ESPN.com actually had the headline go live that Shogun won the title. Dana White said they would do a rematch immediately, which they have to do. It would be when Machida’s injuries from the fight would heal up. There were people who thought Machida won, but they were the minority and the crowd, which hated Rua at the start, had turned to him by the second round and most were in shock at the decision.”

  35. 45 Huddle says:

    ^ From Dave Meltzer

  36. IceMuncher says:

    If they do a rematch, hopefully it’s on Spike or on an otherwise deep card. I don’t know if I’d pay to watch that fight again.

  37. Anders L. says:

    I would like to get some numbers on the betting on Shogun, must have been huge. Retarded fking odds.

    A lesser man would get paranoid…

  38. Fan Futbol says:

    The first three rounds were close (although I had Shogun winning the first and the third); the last two were clearly Shogun’s. Do we know how the judges scored the particular rounds?

    I understand disagreement about who won rounds 1-3. I don’t about 4 & 5.

    I hope they fight again. I enjoyed the “strategery” of the match.

    FF

  39. The Gaijin says:

    @ FF

    Round 1:

    Cecil Peoples 10-9 Machida
    Marcos Rosales 10-9 Machida
    Doc Hamilton 10-9 Rua

    R2:

    CP 10-9 Machida
    MR 10-9 Machida
    DH 10-9 Machida

    R3:

    CP 10-9 Machida
    MR 10-9 Machida
    DH 10-9 Machida

    R4:

    CP 10-9 Rua
    MR 10-9 Rua
    DH 10-9 MACHIDA (no, that is not a typo)

    R5:

    CP 10-9 Rua
    MR 10-9 Rua
    DH 10-9 Rua
    ——————-
    CP 48-47 Machida
    MR 48-47 Machida
    DH 48-47 Machida

  40. IceMuncher says:

    From what I heard (I think it originally came from Loretta Hunt), 2 judges scored rounds 1,2,3 for Machida, and the 3rd judge scored rounds 2,3,4 for Machida.

  41. Oh Yeah says:

    Amazing that Rua had already lost the fight by the third round. Laughable actually.

    This was one of the worse decisions in recent memory – especially because it was a 5 round fight and Rua had clearly won the last two rounds. One judge actually scored R4 for Machida though he was the only one to score R1 for Rua.. In R4, Lyoto’s best maneuvers were getting the switch to stop the takedown and throwing a blocked HK.

    I agree with MK that MMA fans in general are getting a little liberal with calling “robbery”. Or maybe it’s just BE.

    – “For all the “destruction” with those “leg and body kicks” Machida sure wasn’t limping around in the last round. He had a nice red mark on his side — as did Rua — but his mobility in reference to his opponent was not significantly degraded.”

    Machida was markedly slower in the late rounds than he was early on. You could see him switching stances each way often to get a reprieve and wiggling his hips instead of actually attacking.

  42. Mark says:

    I’m having a real hard time trying to care though. Each guy was only landing like 10 strikes per round, that’s leaving too much subjectivity when it goes to the judges.

    IceMuncher reads my mind.

    MMA fans are bigger drama queens than Dana sometimes. This is the social injustice of the month. They will all forget this happened in 3 weeks. But if this leads to a change in judging (doubtful because that would mean ruffling Athletic Commission feathers, and ask John McCarthy how that goes over) then it would be the best thing to happen to MMA in years. But it won’t.

  43. Alan Conceicao says:

    Amazing that Rua had already lost the fight by the third round. Laughable actually.

    This was one of the worse decisions in recent memory – especially because it was a 5 round fight and Rua had clearly won the last two rounds.

    In a 12 round boxing match, if you win only the last 4 rounds…you lose. Unless, of course, you make such an impression you score 10-8s. In football, if you score 21 unanswered points in the 4th quarter, you still lose if the score going into that last period was 35-3. Do you, like, watch sports at all?

  44. Grape Knee High says:

    MMA fans are bigger drama queens than Dana sometimes. This is the social injustice of the month. They will all forget this happened in 3 weeks.

    I’m one of those that thought Shogun won, but this is absolutely the truth.

  45. Oh Yeah says:

    – “Do you, like, watch sports at all?”

    Clearly I was referring to the judging and not disputing the fact that 3 is greater than 2.

    This from a man who will be eating cat food for a month.

  46. Mark says:

    I believe Shogun won too. But I’m so apathetic about the entire ordeal I don’t care.

    But this will be filed next to:
    -GSP’s vaseline use.
    -Seth Petruzelli getting paid to stand -Elite XC’s 20 seconds of non-action getting stand ups rule
    -Nick Diaz being 9 pounds overweight -Steve Mazzagatti giving Frank Mir a charity reprieve from Brock’s beating with the phantom back of the head punch call
    -A gambling tycoon starting up a MMA league
    -Fedor grabbing the ropes against Lindland
    -Yakuza in Japanese MMA
    -Matt Lindland’s double tap fight
    -Gracie’s getting ref stoppages when they didn’t tap in PRIDE against Japanese fighters.

    And countless other incidents that got non-stop hysterical message board posts as the downfall of MMA and were quickly forgotten.

  47. I do believe this was a close fight, but saying that a rematch is certainly needed and im looking forward to it

  48. Alan Conceicao says:

    Clearly I was referring to the judging and not disputing the fact that 3 is greater than 2.

    I understand that. But I don’t see how it can be among the worst decisions ever if the first three are close enough they can all go to Machida.

    This from a man who will be eating cat food for a month.

    Hey, now here is a dude that remembers prior posts in a thread! I like this dude.

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