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Ariel Helwani: All the criticism towards Brock Lesnar shows ignorance
By Zach Arnold | July 13, 2009
He went on a tirade on Steve Cofield’s radio show about Mirko Cro Cop telling Dana White he was going to DREAM after fighting at UFC 99 (after fighting on a verbal agreement). Remember the story told in the media about how Mirko approached White after the fight and delivered the news? Apparently, those antics are bad for the sport.
So you’d think that Brock Lesnar’s antics would also receive criticism from the Versus MMA writer. After all, he did rip a corporate sponsor. Nope.
I heard other members of the media throw around words like “disgraceful,” “embarrassing” and “bad for the sport” immediately following Lesnar’s post-fight celebration. I couldn’t help but wonder if these individuals “get it.”
How many times do we criticize athletes for being too bland or packaged? Have you ever heard a semi-interesting post-game interview on an NBA or NFL telecast? I sure haven’t. Yet here was Lesnar, just moments after unifying the UFC’s heavyweight title, showing some raw emotion and I’m supposed to think it’s disgraceful? Sorry, no can do.
So we are supposed to believe that this is all ‘raw emotion’ but we’re also supposed to believe Lesnar (who Helwani quotes in his post, BTW) when he says that this was just adding some ‘salt and pepper’ and a pro-wrestling flavor to the festivities. Which is it?
Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 26 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Total nonsequitor. You’re comparing apples and oranges. One is a contractual situation, the other is about a lack of sportsmanship. They have nothing to do with one another.
Sometimes I think you have issues with the definition of hypocrisy, and just decide to make it anything you disagree with.
How is Steve Cofield a pro wrestling booster?
Ed. — Not sure I used the word ‘hypocritical’ there, but it’s amusing that what Mirko apparently did (as reported by… Dana White) was a travesty and an injustice to the sport, but Lesnar gets a pass because ‘he’s colorful’ and ‘he’s just what we need.’ As far as Steve goes, Steve cares about being entertained first and foremost. Philly sports fan entertain him. There’s never been anything inconsistent about Steve, which is why I’ve always defended him against attacks online from people. I’m not sure what you are trying to get by claiming that I am lumping Steve in with pro-wrestling. I think you’re the one who is off base here. You’re a wrestling guy, yourself — if you want to ignore some of the psychological motives as to why wrestling fans are so adamantly defending Lesnar against any criticism, be my guest. Lesnar is not going to do for American MMA what Sakuraba did for PRIDE in making it ‘mainstream’ and having 20 million TV viewers.
Why do websites report what this bloke has to say? Who is he apart from some journalist?
Journalists should be there to report the news rather than give opinions mostly. But this guy isn’t a journalist because everyone knows he works for the WEC site and is basically a Zuffa employee / extreme sypathiser anyway. Thus removing his semblence of impartiality.
I’m really not sure why people pick up on his comments.
I agree with Zach that Lesnar and Zuffa ought to get their story straight about whether Lesnar just lost his temper or whether “What you saw out there was not real.”
Before you edited your post, you said Helwani like all others defending Lesnar is a pro wrestling booster. Seeing as he was on Cofield’s show, and Cofield has defended Lesnar non-stop, I was just giving one of many counter examples to your now-erased point.
I watched wrestling for years, I also closely follow professional tennis and college basketball.
I don’t watch any wrestling any more unless I’m sent a youtube clip, I have no desire or need to see it legitimized.
I don’t think Lesnar is going to make it mainstream, but then that’s the straw man you’ve been beating on for at least a day now. What I think is that Lesnar is the primary cause for the inexplicable growrth in UFC pay per view numbers since last November. A whole bunch of new fans tried the show, and obviously a lot stuck around, which is why UFC 92 did such an insane number out of nowhere. Can you imagine Lyoto Machida doing 635,000 buys a year ago?
I think Lesnar is helping the UFC not just on his shows, but bringing in fans who are actually staying for other shows. I suspect the halo effect will extend to UFC 101, which would have done 600 at most a year ago but will probably crush that this year, mostly because of all the eyes Lesnar’s put on the UFC.
In terms of his antics, I’m of the view that he’s legitimately crazy rather than acting. Look at him frothing at the mouth after the fight, that is the face of a real nutcase. The guys who are acting are guys like Matt Serra who build fake grudges and then hug after the fight. Or is that not what MMA fans really want? I hope he never does it again, and I don’t want to see others doing it. As a one time thing, I don’t think it really does any damage at all.
I was on a fox sports radio show yesterday and the host knew nothing about MMA, but thought this was good for the sport because every time Terrell Owens does something like this they get more interest than ever. There’s more interest among mma fans in how the mainstream will react than actual negative mainstream reaction.
I think, as usual, you’re blowing things out of proportion. The psychoanalysis of Dave Meltzer is creepy and insane too, but at least it’s being done by qualified and well-balanced people.
As far as Ariel goes, I disagreed with what he said about Mirko, but how are the two items even comparable? One is a backstage business tactic and another is an interview on the show. I don’t know what you find amusing about it other than the fact tha you disagree with both things.
I think both are true, Brock’s reaction after winning was real but his promo with Rogan did have that WWE flavor Either way there is no story to get straight, it’s simply yet another so called scandal that is nothing more than media creation. Every week we get some new story used to bash Zuffa and every month the UFC does huge buyrates it’s time that the mma media catch up to rest of the public and stop this bs.
The sentence that was chopped off of the end of the post originally is that Helwani is a wrestling booster, so his take is no different than the other pro-wrestling fans UFC has on Lesnar.
Since I’m writing an article on this topic later on, I suppose I’ll just come out and address a couple of points.
My focus in terms of watching the reaction to Lesnar is how pro-wrestling fans are defending him so vociferously as being great for the sport. I find it hilarious. What you, Helwani, and others who come from wrestling and support it ardently is that you all view Lesnar at UFC 100 as if this was Sakuraba beating his first Gracie and that what we’re going to get with Lesnar as the company’s ace is the equivalent to what Sakuraba did for PRIDE and it’s simply not going to happen.
But there is a psychological focus to pay attention to as to why wrestling fans, who turned on Lesnar after he left WWE on bad terms and disgraced himself with New Japan, largely are so protective of him and his success despite the fact that he bashes his pro-wrestling stint (while using it to his advantage). The reason you and other writers who come from a wrestling background are so adamant in defending him on a feverish pitch is because Lesnar is “one of our own,” he’s a pro-wrestler who’s the ace of a real fighting company. Therefore, he suddenly makes UFC really really cool to support and the mindset of UFC is no longer that of a Mixed Martial Arts company, but instead UFC is now viewed as an extension of ‘real’ pro-wrestling. No matter what Lesnar says or does (he could give flowers to his wife or he could slap someone after a fight in the cage), a lot of pro-wrestling fans who like UFC will rush to back what he does no matter what because he’s an image character that is an emotional vessel to the wrestling fans. Given all of the horrible wrestling that has happened this past decade and the fans that have vanished because the scene is so dilapidated and all of the various scandals (including the Chris Benoit murders) that have impacted the business, there’s a natural feeling to be protective of Lesnar as UFC champion and to try to validate him as much as possible because of the low morale that most US wrestling fans have today. Suddenly his success on the ‘real’ stage doesn’t make you feel so bad to be a wrestling fan of a ‘fake’ sport.
The problem, of course, is that Brock Lesnar will never be accepted on a huge mainstream level like Kazushi Sakuraba was in Japan — for a multitude of reasons. Coming from pro-wrestling in Japan is considered honorable in that culture. Coming from wrestling in American culture is not so honorable. That’s why I’m fascinated to see all the major wrestling writers who cover UFC be as frothing at the mouth in defending him and attacking any criticism.
I love the fact that because I grew up around pro-wrestling and have been near it that somehow this disqualifies me in the eyes of people like you from making these statements. I don’t hate wrestling and anyone who knows me or has ever talked to me knows that I’ve never turned my back. (God knows how much abuse I’ve taken over the years for it.) However, there are times you have to call a spade a spade and right now the Lesnar love in trying to frame him in the Sakuraba template is just crazy.
My completely unnecessary comment to this otherwise delightful post:
Dave Meltzer, god love him, but ALL of this wrestling talk in any type of capacity is just crazy!
Mike,
What’s creepy and insane to say that Dave Meltzer has a vested interest in seeing Brock Lesnar and UFC succeed and get to new heights?
Oh, and I’m sure Brock Lesnar is legitimately a bit crazy, but he’s savvy enough to know that he’ll make more money (which is a big motivating factor for him) by goading the MMA fans in his post match interview, while the pro wrestling fans will lap up his heelish antics. And Dana White was clearly expecting such a promo, as he had a couple of stories in place to diffuse anger away from his unsportmanlike conduct. Don’t get worked!
I was at the UFC 100 screening at Radio City in NYC and I can tell you that no no one there was talking about Brock Lesnar’s comments after the fight.
This whole issue is really a non-issue. The people who ultimately determine the fate of the UFC are the fans. Without revenue from tickets/PPV, etc, there is no UFC. And if the fans dont care about Brock’s comments (they dont) then they dont matter. A few sports writers having a problem with the comments is completely insignificant for all intents and purposes.
The UFC is trying to have it both ways. They’re hoping the people intrigued by Lesnar’s antics aren’t the hardcore fans who would seek out the post-fight presser or read reviews of the show, but still save face with the press by saying it’s a work. We’ll see how they handle it on Brock’s next Countdown show. I’d wager they air everything but the Coors Light joke and portray him as a legit madman instead of working the crowd.
If you’re going to be mad at the UFC and Lesnar, then you should hate the Zuffa years period, since they were follow a pro wrestling model since day one. You’re lying to yourself if you don’t believe well over half of UFC fans were pro wrestling fans first, or think what Brock did somehow differs from what Tito did, or can excuse away that male soap opera known as The Ultimate Fighter while saying with a straight face Lesnar was the first guy to bring pro wrestling into UFC. If the UFC followed a straight-laced sports model they never would have broken through. This just dawning on people now because an actual ex-pro wrestler is there (and forgot that Frye, Abbott, Shamrock, Barnett, Coleman, Severn, and others also had pro wrestling careers) is ridiculous.
This is just the latest UFC crisis that lasts 2 weeks like GSP’s vaseline, Sherk’s steroid test, Jackson’s arrest, Junie freaking out in front of the Athletic Commission that the general public don’t even notice but MMA writers are certain is going to topple MMA for good.
Straw man argument you seem to have created in order to tear it apart at your leisure. I haven’t seen a single person claim Brock is “representing” or somehow validating pro wrestling. I have to question the MMA as extension argument here because you’re presuming that the WWE fan is somehow so emotionally vested in WWE’s success that they are somehow inexplicably envious of MMA’s recent successes.
Please bear in mind, however, that Lesnar hasn’t been in a WWE ring for over 4 years and hasn’t appeared in a wrestling ring at all since 2006. Lesnar is representing his own business interests and nothing more and I would prefer to think that people are capable of comprehending this without you unnecessarily fabricating this “Sakuraba mold” nonsense, only to condescendingly insist that this unequivocally MUST be the position of the pro wrestling fan..It’s not.
WWE and UFC have more of a cold war vibe in their dealings with each other: there’s a competition, but their isn’t a competition. UFC cannot acknowledge they take pride in knowing they get 2 or 3 times the numbers of buys of the average WWE pay per view (not counting Wrestlemania) because it doesn’t look good to admit a pro wrasslin’ company is your competition, so they stick to knocking boxing and Affliction. WWE cannot admit that the UFC has stolen their fans because a totally different product outdoing you means you’re doing something horribly wrong, and the McMahon’s can never admit they’re anything less than perfect. And admitting another type of product is doing you in means the situation is hopeless; you can eventually come up with something to bring fans back if another pro wrestling company stole your thunder, but WWE fans who turn to UFC are gone for good. WWE realizes that, they just can’t say it. They know wrestling is going to be a show for children who will turn to UFC when they become teenagers, and have shown that by admittedly becoming more kid-oriented again after years of writing for older teens. Once in a while they’ll toss in an insult like “UFC can’t build stars like we do because once they lose they’re finished as a draw”, but as a whole they pretend like they don’t exist for good reason.
Non-MMA watching pro wrestling fans really don’t give a crap enough to be “emotionally vested in WWE’s success.” You will never get a “Monday Night Wars” (the WWF vs. WCW feud) reaction out of them for the UFC. They say they don’t like it because they think it’s boring and that sometimes short main events feel like a rip off. But they’re not taking up WWE’s cause against MMA.
I have to question the MMA as extension argument here because you’re presuming that the WWE fan is somehow so emotionally vested in WWE’s success that they are somehow inexplicably envious of MMA’s recent successes.
It has nothing to do with the successes of the WWE and everything to do with the presumed reasons for “failure” for the WWE. Regardless of how even handed Meltzer is with the UFC (and he does say things that are in opposition to their action), his general position, which he’s repeated god knows how many times, is that they are popular because they have utilized a more realistic fashion of building main events (what he hilariously terms “true sports build”) than has the WWE circus.
Not for a moment does he question whether or not “true sports build” is specificially applicable in ways for MMA that it is not for pro wrestling, in spite of the obvious fact that MMA is AN ACTUAL REAL SPORT and pro wrestling is AN ACTUAL PERFORMANCE ART UNDER GUISE OF SPORT. The man cannot separate pro wrestling concepts, promotion, and storytelling for anything else. Look at his shocked response to the fans booing Brock Lesnar! He all but says that they’re trying to be “too smart”.
I lost all respect for Ariel in his Cro Cop tirade. I don’t really give a fuck what he says anymore. I’ll give him props for getting the pee pee quotes, and those were hilarious, but dude belongs holding the mic, not talking into it.
It’s because he’s talking about MMA in the context of a pro wrestling newsletter, website, or podcast. I don’t recall pro wrestling comparisons being brought up that often in his Yahoo writing, outside of Lesnar/Lashley/Shamrock discussions. I’ve seen far more references to boxing than pro wrestling there. (And when he talks about boxing in the Observer he uses wrestling references as well. It doesn’t mean he’s trying to latch on the Oscar De La Hoya to defeat Vince McMahon.)
There’s a difference between saying that ODLH is trying to defeat Vince McMahon and calling Mayweather/De La Hoya 24/7 the most compelling pro wrestling programming in years (which he did do).
Again, I appreciate the psychoanalysis from a maniac conspiracy theorist, but I could give a shit about pro wrestling being validated. I don’t “come from” pro wrestling, it’s something I used to watch with great interest. I didn’t start getting into MMA through wrestling, I got into it through being hammered in Best Buy and buying a number of DVD’s because it looked awesome.
I thought his promo, more than anything, was amusing. Slamming Bud Light and promising to plow Sable was good TV. The idea that I give a shit about Lesnar “turning” on wrestling and other things is ridiculous, though maybe you have great insight into other deep, dark secrets of mine.
Lesnar’s already proved he’s good for business. I don’t think it will go mainstream or anything, but again I never thought it would. If anyone has mental issues, it’s MMA fans embarrassed by the violence they enjoy, hoping ESPN will validate them by covering the sport alongside golf on SportsCenter.
Actually, I think it’s inaccurate to say that Zuffa always followed a pro wrestling model. Dana White came from a boxing background and it took him years to fully embrace the pro wrestling model of promotion. Dave Meltzer criticized him for years for not capitalizing on angles real life threw at him, until he finally came around to that idea hesitantly. Remember that it was Spike TV who came up with the reality TV show idea, not Dana and the Fertittas.
Also, I think the focus on current WWE vs current UFC is missing the point of Zach’s argument. Most wrestling commentators believe that WWE is run by an insane, out of touch, megalomaniac who constantly changes his mind, aided and abetted by a group of feckless creative writers out of college who have no knowledge or respect for the art and history of professional wrestling. Consequently current WWE is pro wrestling done, by and large, pretty badly. No-one is backing WWE in this race.
However, they do seem to be backing UFC. I’ve heard Dave and Bryan joke so often about UFC doing pro wrestling better than pro wrestling itself does, that the record success of UFC 100 will obviously be validation in their eyes for pro wrestling done right. Validation over all the fools in the pro wrestling business who stopped listening to them and ignore their sage advice. Validation over all their colleagues who told them they were pissing their talent away covering silly pro wrestling.
Also, Dave seems way too close to Brock, Dana and Joe Silva to objectively report on their booking and promotional decisions, as he seems to be an unpaid creative consultant for them. That’s just how it comes across to me and I trust Dave wouldn’t intentionally mislead his readers, but it may unknowingly influence his coverage.
Of course, I could just be a maniac conspiracy theorist with way too much time on my hands.
Again, I appreciate the psychoanalysis from a maniac conspiracy theorist, but I could give a shit about pro wrestling being validated.
lol, who is even talking about you right now? You’re right, you’re not looking for validation for your opinions on faux fighting. You instead chase glory as a biz analyst for the MMA game. Fine and dandy: Only thing is, virtually everything you say is a direct application of the wonderous lessons learned vis-a-vis pro wrestling and your once endless love there of. Its particularly telling because back at that point, you basically played the same gimmick in regards to your formerly beloved Ring of Honor. Maybe you should repost some of your articles on “learned wrestling psychology” or about your inside scoops in wrestling over at BE as a retrospective to your large fanbase. Perhaps an account of your trip with GregH?
Oh it’s so cute to have such a long time fan and follower. How does it feel to have the honor of being banned from almost every MMA website for being an intolerable asshole?
Seeing as Zach replied to me with a number of lines with “you”, it’s pretty obvious he was referring to me. I understand that reading has never been a strong suit of yours though, so it’s all forgiven.
Look on the bright side, you can keep posting articles for your 9 fans at Total MMA.
With your intimate knowledge of Observer back issues from 2 years ago and obscure ROH columns, there’s no doubt in my mind now you’re a closeted smart mark.
How does it feel to have the honor of being banned from almost every MMA website for being an intolerable asshole?
Banned from who? Your site? Well, gee golly! Perhaps you can write a 15 paragraph essay on this too! My sources indicate overcompensation!
Mike, I really don’t care if anyone takes me as a hyper serious journalist or if I even make a dime. You on the other hand? Dude, I got passed along the list Kevin Cook made for you when you got nominated as the worst message board poster ever or whatever. You worked the same gimmick then as you do now! I laughed ten times as hard. It must take serious effort for wrestling nerds to think you take yourself and wrestling too seriously.
Look on the bright side, you can keep posting articles for your 9 fans at Total MMA.
The completely anticipated response!
Discussion of pro wrestling message board politics is, naturally, the only logical direction this conversation could have gone.
MMA pulls from many different fanbases. A typical MMA event doesn’t have even close to the same crowd that a WWE event does. I think the MMA blogs (and specifically the writers) are filled with former Pro Wrestling fans, which is why people have this disproportionate idea that the WWE and UFC have such a cross over fan base.
A few comments on what MMA really does pull from….
1. It is very difficult to go from Pro Wrestling to MMA and then back to Pro Wrestling. MMA is the grown up version of Pro Wrestling. I was a huge Pro Wrestling fan back in the day. I can’t watch it now due to MMA. Watch a kick for real in MMA, and then watch it fake in Pro Wrestling just doesn’t go together with the brain. So MMA has stolen WWE fans. Most won’t be looking back.
2. MMA has a devoted fanbase that trains. Go to local shows and sometimes one fighter can have a few hundred people from their gym rooting them on. This happens in many gyms all across the country.
3. MMA has taken some older boxing fans. And it definitely has taken away their entire younger fanbase. Boxings failures were a direct opportunity for MMA.
4. MMA is a generational thing. It doesn’t appeal to the older fanbase because they grew up on boxing and more simpiliar entertainment. Younger people grew up on video games such aqs Mortal Kombat and over the top movies. MMA is a real version of these things.
5. Then there is the “this is the cool thing” right now crowd. They will be gone in a few years. The rest of the fanbase will still be around.
Now, how this relates to Brock Lesnar…. Most of the people booing at the arena were not Pro Wrestling fans. Heck, most of the people watching were not Pro Wrestling fans. Even the new fans he brought in, might have been casual Pro Wrestling fans at best who just like the CONCEPT…. THE IDEA… Of a “fake” pro wrestler trying it out for real. And then they got hooked when they saw it.
All this talk about people defending Pro Wrestling is garbage. Pro Wrestling fans have a flair for the dramatic, hence why they liked what Lesnar did. That’s it. It isn’t defending Pro Wrestling. It isn’t some WWE vs. Pro Wrestling thing. It just made for good television.
Lastly, the point was made above, but needs repeating. The MMA Bloggers (who I think far too often come from the hateful world of Pro Wrestling)…. Find a new story every week or two and then act like the world is coming to an end. It’s a constant concentration on the negative. And not just real negatives… More like one sided, interpret what Zuffa does in the worst light, and then bash until the end. It gets old quickly.
MMA has been great this year. The UFC is doing amazing things. Their scheduled cards through October are looking awesome. Strikeforce is doing good things on Showtime. Japan has some solid tournaments going on….
And yet all people do is complain. Unreal. I happen to be really enjoying MMA this year. It’s a shame the rest of you can’t.
Helwani is just jerking himself off over Lesnar, and Cofield (fellow jerker) gave him the platform. Ariel is all on the Lesnar bandwagon, and has a see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil mentality towards him.
Personally, I think Lesnar is good for MMA, because he is a legitimate wrestler, he’s worked on his other skills, and he is fighting machine. Can he be beaten? Sure, he will be one day.
His antics after the fight were over the top, but they were contrived. Lesnar isn’t nuts, he knows exactly what he’s doing; I’m sure he was elated over getting the Mir loss off his back, and he’s the kind of person that would rip a sponsor over money. He also wants to let everyone know that he’s for real.
That being said, when Dana White has to take you aside and tell you that you talk too much and too loud, that’s interesting, isn’t it, considering Dana’s own oral aggression problems?
Either way, Lesnar will either slowly gain the respect of the MMA community, or he will wear out his welcome, and even White will be thinking of a way to get rid of him.