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Water cooler talk for March Madness ’09 weekend

By Zach Arnold | March 20, 2009

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Here’s what you might be reading about today and discussing amongst fellow friends who follow MMA:

Sherdog: BJ Penn, attorney vow to fight on

“As an attorney, it’s about fact-finding,” he said. “As a commission member, as an executive director, you would think that his purpose is a fact-finding mission to obtain all the facts, all the evidence and to make an educated legal judgment upon the commission as to your determination. Do I feel he did that? Not at all.”

The Canadian Press: BJ Penn’s camp will not give up

“Not at all. This is just the beginning for our side,” Raffi Nahabedian, Penn’s lawyer, told The Canadian Press.

“And I think that other commissions that are going to be watching this or reading about this are going to be, in my opinion, appalled at the almost lackadaisical attitude taken by (Nevada commission executive director Keith Kizer) Mr. Kizer.”

Matt Serra’s opinion-editorial in today’s New York Newsday: Fighting for MMA in New York

The students at my schools understand that mixed martial arts is a sport based on respect, strategy and skill. That’s also the view held by the leadership of the UFC. Zuffa, the company that bought UFC in 2001, has reinvented the league by instituting strict safety standards to protect its athletes.

Not the Zuffa myth again…

New York Daily News (Tim Smith): Roy Jones Jr. tried to match boxing with MMA in hometown show

This is a marriage that is doomed from the start. It just won’t work. The two sports are completely different. And the fans are completely different because they have different expectations of what their sport is supposed to deliver.

Michael David Smith: An interview with WEC boss Peter Dropick

‘Putting a show on pay-per-view is one of our goals, and it’s a necessity. We’re still going to deliver quality fight cards on Versus. We think we’re very deep, across all our weight classes and we put on some of the most exciting fights out there. We need more fights. Our fighters are starting to get backed up a little bit and we need to get them more fights. So our matchmakers would love it if we did two shows in a row, and we think there’s enough talent for Versus to be happy and for us to do a good show on pay-per-view.’

The Associated Press: Bill seeks regulation of MMA in the state of Maine

Williams, however, called the activity “bloody, brutal and potentially deadly.” He asked the committee to shun “the type of vicious events that are contemplated in the bill.”

Williams, saying “I appear to be the underdog today” as the only opponent to speak, added that the department has no expertise in regulating sports, and raised concern that the bill includes no protections for children or criteria for referees.

The Portland Press Herald (Maine): Barbaric to be sure, but a sport

There’s room under sport’s big tent for mixed martial arts. It has its rules, its code of conduct and, surprise, its respect for each other.

You would have to watch and listen to understand.

Metro Vancouver: Council set to debate cage fighting next week in Vancouver

In the report, the Vancouver Police Department warns that banning MMA outright could result in more underground events with no “controlling force” in place to monitor them.

Setanta Sports (UK): The death of jiu-jitsu in UFC?

Jiu Jitsu’s influence in The Octagon, despite the lack of its most potent techniques (submissions), is still strong if not stronger than ever. Before we herald its death we should note that three of the five UFC champions are Jiu Jitsu Black Belts. Anderson Silva, George St. Pierre and BJ Penn each hold the fabled rank and the respective straps at their weight. Does a Muay Thai machine like Silva need it? When he beat Nate Marquardt and Travis Lutter it certainly didn’t work against him!

Topics: Boxing, Media, MMA, UFC, WEC, Zach Arnold | 27 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

27 Responses to “Water cooler talk for March Madness ’09 weekend”

  1. 45 Huddle says:

    Sherdog.com had a survey about the Penn/GSP Grease issues… more then 70% of the people didn’t care anymore. That’s a lot, especially for the Sherdog crowd.

    And speaking of survey’s…. Meltzer had one on who would win between Evans/Machida. It was exactly tied 50/50. Doesn’t get much better then that. Although, that fight could be a snoozer!!

    As for submissions in MMA…. I think the submission guys just need to progress more. Right now the wrestlers are the better strikers, so they just keep it on the feet. BJJ guys need to improve their striking, and force the wrestlers into taking them down. Additionally, they need to be more crafty about it. Submission guys like Monson, Arona, Filho, & others who are more position grapplers…. Won’t find much success in MMA with their submission skills. It’s really smooth guys… Like Aoki, Maia, & Hazelett who are the future of submissions in MMA.

    Not a death of submissions… just a changing of the guard.

  2. Asa says:

    I never agreed with the “Death of JJ” concept floating around. It reminded me of the same talk in MA mags around 1994. It merely has to grow.

    As Helio adapted it against strikers and wrestlers to what we saw at UFC 1, now the current and next generations have to forge it against the also-evolving strikers and wrestlers of today.

    Yeah! What Huddle said!

  3. 45 Huddle says:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3998211

    Boston’s coach got fined for critizing a ref. Wow, the NBA is very different then the UFC. Dana White has bashed refs himself….

  4. spacedog says:

    As far is JJ is concerned it seems the next evolution of JJ players is actually learning how to take some one down. Maia is good at this, he does his little “fall- back -while -I -grab- one -leg- and -then -reverse” thing and it works a treat. He is the exception though. I feel like all the JJ guys need to spend a year learning how to do a basic double leg. If they had any real ability to dictate when and how the fight go to the ground I think we would see a lot more subs.

  5. klown says:

    Spacedog is spot on.

    The JJ fighters’ weakness has been in willfully getting the fight to the ground. Most take the passive route of waiting for the opponent to wrestle or knock them down, incurring GnP damage in the process, and invariably ending up on bottom. Not that bottom is necessarily bad, but it would be good to see some JJ artists working their top game. For that to happen, they need to learn takedowns.

  6. Jim Allcorn says:

    Regarding all the discussion about mixed cards featuring both boxing & MMA, I don’t think it’s a bad idea at all. And, although I doubt tomorrow night’s PPV is going to be the catalyst for a significant amount of similar promotions, I do think it will be a part of a slow new thought process that will lead to more & more such shows in the future.

    I’m very strongly of the belief that there are more similarities between the two & their fans than differences. And that it will be proven down the line.

    In just the past couple of years we’ve witnessed a rather dramatic shift in the attitudes of boxing’s & MMA’s athletes toward one another & what they do, as well as far less bashing of the “other sport” amoung their two fan bases.

    Let’s face it, in the end they’re both about either knocking the opponent out or making the opponent submit to the other’s will in order to claim victory.

    Call me mad, but somewhere down the line, I can see a time when both boxing & MMA are governed by a single combat sports organization. I mean, it already is on a state to state basis with each one’s perspective athletic commissions. All I’m foreseeing is a day when both sports are sanctioned & regulated by a single national combat sports commission.
    That & the strong probability of a union covering both sports athletes. ‘Cause you know, that if MMA fighters ever form a union it won’t be long before boxers demand the same. Or vise versa.

    Am I saying that I think that eventually all shows will be mixed?
    Of course not.
    Especially with regards to the UFC & pretty much any organization that used a cage. I just don’t see any way that that wouldn’t prevent a mixed card from happening. Unless they could find boxers willing to fight inside a cage & a state willing to sanction it under boxing rules…
    Which, as a lifelong boxing fan & a former fighter myself, would be interesting to see. Once or twice. But, I just can’t see it working, so. Caged fights & boxing are likely something we won’t see together on the same card.

    Though, what I could see as a distinct possibility are split site PPVs, with boxing from one location & MMA from another.

  7. 45 Huddle says:

    I don’t know anybody (except online) who likes both MMA AND Boxing. It’s one or the other. Heck, MMA events are filled with young white men and women. Boxing is filled with old men, and men from the nationality of the main event fighter.

  8. Ultimo Santa says:

    I reiterate my point that if KenFlo does indeed smash BJ as 45 predicts – which is a strong possibility – it could further diminish Penn’s greasing argument.

    If Florian dominates with BJJ, then everyone will assume that Penn just isn’t as good as he thinks he is, and that it doesn’t take Vaseline to neutralize his “legendary guard” (Mike Goldberg’s words)

    Although after reading Penn’s formal complaint letter, I’m more confused than ever at what Penn thought the infraction was.

    It basically boils down to Penn and GSP doing nearly no damage to each other in R1, the NCAC catching GSP “cheating” and toweling him down, and then GSP beating BJ to a pulp for the rest of the fight AFTER the alleged Vaseline was toweled off.

    So the problem is…?

  9. 45 Huddle says:

    That Florian/BJ post wasn’t mine. Somebody used the same screen name.

    However, I have predicted that Florian will beat Penn. I think Penn is vulnerable after such a huge defeat. And his cardio is still kind of suspect. I think Florian survives the first round, makes it close in the 2nd, and takes over from the 3rd on. Not sure if he finishes or not, but by the 5th round, Penn is going to be gassed and Florian is going to be using kicks to hurt him.

  10. klown says:

    I have a strong feeling Florian will win.

    He’s got momentum, focus and motivation.

    And he is better rounded than any LW Penn has faced in the last few years.

  11. Jim Allcorn says:

    45, while you’re correct on your points for the most part, I see things balancing out more in the future.While you may not personally know anyone who enjoys & supports both sports, I do.
    It began as a small group of friends whom I watched boxing with for years who just happened to be there when I ordered UFC 2 in March of ’94.
    And although they were at first skeptical of of the tourney’s entertainment value with Gracie’s wearing down of Ichihara in the initial match, they were all made instant fans of it once they witnessed & were left with their mouths agape by Pat Smith’s brutal 30 second destruction of ninjitsu practitioner Scott Morris.
    They were, to a man, all instant fans of MMA from that point on. Fans who’re still some 15 years later fans of both boxing & MMA.

    And, I believe that there’s probably a larger contingent of such “blended” fans out there than given credit for. And their number will likely grow over the next few years IMO.

  12. Ivan Trembow says:

    From Yahoo Sports: “[Dana White] was beaming when he talked about some changes he’s seen on recent HBO boxing broadcasts. It’s clear that he thinks HBO is plucking some of the UFC’s production ideas.”

    This is hilarious given the production style of the UFC’s Countdown shows and specifically of UFC Primetime, the idea for which White said he got from doing his own video blogs and certainly not from HBO’s award-winning 24/7 series.

  13. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    So, your conclusion that millions of new-to-actual-combat sports MMA fans are going to embrace boxing as the co-sport of kings is based on your observation that a group of guys that you have watched boxing with for over two decades didn’t chop off your head when you ordered a UFC PPV 15 years ago and have since come to like MMA while continuing to like boxing.

    I can definitely see a single authority (as you said, there already is in practice), and I can see the similarities between the sports, but that doesn’t mean that I think that there should be cricket/baseball doublehdaders.

  14. Dave says:

    “I don’t know anybody (except online) who likes both MMA AND Boxing. It’s one or the other. Heck, MMA events are filled with young white men and women. Boxing is filled with old men, and men from the nationality of the main event fighter.”

    I have some friends that just like to watch dudes beat each other up, so cards like the one tonight with MMA and Boxing work. I think it is rare, but it does happen.

    I do agree, audience-wise. I think Zuffa has more or less reached its peak for their fan base unless they reach out to the hispanic and black fans that really don’t care about MMA. The problem with the hispanic audience is that MMA isn’t established in Mexico, Puerto Rico and so on like Boxing is.

  15. Jim Allcorn says:

    Jeremy(ntj),
    No, my friend. I’m not basing my conclusions on my small circle of friends. But what I’ve witnessed over the past decade & a half as a rabid follower of both sports ( 16 as an MMA fan, 33 as a boxing enthusiast ) & the trends that I’ve seen over the past couple/three years. The outright ( & ridiculous, mind you ) hostility that existed between the two factions of fans has disipated a LOT during this time & I believe will continue to do so in the future.

    No, I don’t believe that we’ll ever see a day when MMA fans will ever want to sit down & watch a John Ruiz hug-a-thon as a part of their fight cards nor even an Ivan “Iron Boy” Calderone certain 12 rounder for that matter.
    That’s where proper matchmaking will be SO important. ‘Cause I defy ANY MMA fan to watch a Corrales – Castillo I, any one of the Vasquez – Marquez wars or a Marquez – Diaz fight & NOT get caught up in the action.

  16. Mr. Mike says:

    “Not that bottom is necessarily bad, but it would be good to see some JJ artists working their top game. For that to happen, they need to learn takedowns.”

    They need to learn and, train JUDO! The perfect accomplice to BJJ. Once they become good, start training without a Gi and, you’ll see the BJJ guys back on top.

  17. Zack says:

    BJ will finish Florian.

  18. skwirrl says:

    The event tonight wasn’t horrible. And People talking about their being no crossover are just wrong. There were only 2 fights that didn’t get booed at all.

    Din Thomas’ and of course RJJ. Monson vs Nelson was ballsy though I would say foolish matchmaking. Putting a grappling purists match on a boxing card is not optimal and it got booed when the fans didn’t understand that Nelson was trying to pass half guard and I booed while the action stalled in the corner. (There needs to me more breaking when fighters stall against the cage/ropes in the clinch.) Lashley’s fight went much the same way. But in the action fight of Din Thomas the crowd was very into it. Fight fans like good fights and its more often MMA fans that don’t like boxing because they seem to feel MMA is a real fight and boxing isn’t. Well here’s news, neither are real fights because they have news. The MMA fans that I know that look at it as sport and boxing as a different sport with similarities generally enjoy both more.

    neither are real fights because they have RULES. ugh spelling mistake city above.

  19. Alan Conceicao says:

    I thought the event sucked outside of Din Thomas, to be honest. Look at the fights: BJ Flores still can’t pull the trigger, the bantamweight dark match was merely acceptable, Roy Jones schooling an old and mediocre Sheika was a joke, Lashley looked awful, the opener featured a well known journeyman fighting a guy who is, to be entirely frank, a tomato can even on the regional stage, etc. I mean they filled the time up and Roy got people to cheer, but everyone was there for Roy to start with.

    It probably sold like all of Roy’s PPVs did after the third Tarver fight (think: 25,000 PPVs) and unless it helped bolster the live gate I don’t know what the MMA element really did for it other than bore the living crap out of everyone for the two bouts that went the full distance.

  20. skwirrl says:

    I live blogged on a boxing board and the two fights that got the most hate were BJ Flores and the Lashley fight.

  21. Alan Conceicao says:

    Lashley deserved hate. He looked terrible out there. He can’t strike, he’s not comfortable doing anything but laying in guard/half guard, and his takedowns ended up being not good enough to easily get a fat middleweight on his back. Ron Waterman looks better.

    Nelson legitimized himself to some people probably, but in doing so he only enforced that he’s a top 20 heavyweight and nothing more.

  22. Fluyid says:

    Lashley better be matched well until he either develops or decides to get back into the WWE. I know it’s probably popular to pile on the guy right now, but he’s lucky he didn’t get subbed.

  23. 45 Huddle says:

    Roy Nelson proved he is around the level of a Jeff Monson. Which isn’t a good thing if he plans on being the best. He needs to lose his gut.

    Lashley should make people appreciate Brock Lesnar…. And how gifted and quick learner he really is.

  24. Fluyid says:

    Lesnar is incredible.

    In comparing the two, how much longer has Lesnar been in training? I know he fought in the L.A. Coliseum a while back, so I have to guess that he’s been at it a good bit longer than Lashley.

    Lesnar seems more gutsy and balls-to-the-wall at this point than Lashley for sure.

  25. 45 Huddle says:

    Rumors have it…

    UFC 101 – August 8th – Might be Penn/Florian

    UFC 102 – August 29th – Might be Couture vs. Nogueira

    I will be mad if they put a PPV on in September… But I have a feeling they will.

    One PPV per month needs to be the max. If they have the need for more big cards, they need to get on Network TV or HBO so the fans aren’t getting gouged.

  26. Oops! says:

    I have no problem with what UFC is doing with the PPV’s having to a month. I’m not going to buy every PPV and it gives people choises as to what they want to see more.

    Also it gives fighters more chances at making money. People who spend money on every PPV can either afford it or dosen’t care about the money they spend.

  27. skwirrl says:

    Lashley has been training for about 8 months now. Brock about 3 years at this point.

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