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One nightmarish TV rating for DREAM 7
By Zach Arnold | March 11, 2009
Update (3/11): DREAM defenders come out. If New Japan consistently drew a 2.5 for their 2 AM slot, they might not survive at this point in 2009. There was a reason they wanted Keiji Mutoh as their champion — because he brought their TV ratings back to pre-Japanese MMA boom levels (1997-1998ish numbers in the 4’s).
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There was little or no PR buzz in Japan for DREAM 7, and rightly so. The reported attendance of over 19,000 is… interesting. At least K-1 will throw out a number, legitimate or not, whereas Sengoku never has ever mentioned an attendance figure for one of their Saitama Super Arena events.
Usually, when a fight promotion draws a low TV rating, the Japanese media ignores it and won’t report it. However, when it’s as low as this, even Sports Navigator (Yahoo Japan) can’t keep their eyes closed.
Network: TBS (Tokyo Broadcasting System)
Rating: 2.4% overall average, 4.0% peak rating for Shin’ya Aoki vs. David Gardner
Air time: Tape-delayed (aired Midnight same night of show, on 3/8)
Who knew that when the MMA boom went kaput in Japan that MMA programming would draw lower ratings than New Japan on TV-Asahi? There’s a certain karmic justice in all of this if you know how the history of the Japanese fight scene has played out over the last 10-12 years, given that it was pro-wrestling’s star power that carried the major Japanese shows. Once the pro-wrestling star factory dried up and got damaged by MMA, it soon became a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The mainstream fight scene is now down to one major operation in each sector – New Japan on TV-Asahi (pro-wrestling) and K-1 on TBS/Fuji TV (kickboxing). That’s it. NOAH’s done on Nippon TV.
Topics: DREAM, Japan, Media, MMA, Zach Arnold | 60 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
I’m not a Japanese Ratings expert, but I remember seeing the previous shows in the past could get over 10%…
I can completely see why it is tanking in the ratings. Shinya Aoki is not a fighter to build an organization around. And that seems like what they are doing.
Just looking at the card (as I have not seen the overall event), it looks like a Super Shooto card. Nothing more, nothing less.
i just hope k-1 stays 🙁
Can Pride come back now please?
It’s nothing surprising, even for FEG and TBS.
Wait, I’m sorry: How was Mirko Cro-Cop made by the pro wrestling star making machine? Or Kid Yamamoto? Wanderlei Silva? Hidehiko Yoshida? Sakuraba was not exactly the foundation of UWFi when he made the shift to MMA.
I have to agree with Alan here.
The star-power of pro-wrestling stars in MMA dried up long before Pride/Japan-MMA-boom did. And really, as far as I’m concerned, guys like Sakuraba were more fighter than pro-wrestler. If it had only been guys like Takada who only lost, MMA wouldnt have gotten so popular in Japan. And foreign fighters like Crocop, Wand, Nogueira, and Fedor did not get so popular because they were pro-wrestlers.
K1’s monster NYE MMA/kickboxing events did not do amazing ratings because they were “carried” by pro-wrestlers. The Pride/K1 Shockwave/Dynamite card did not have 90,000 in attendance because of any pro-wrestlers on the card.
Zach, I think Japanese MMA only got its “karmic justice” in YOUR eyes because it destroyed your beloved Puroresu. (I’m sure only some of us remember what this site was originally called).
PRIDE only got started because of Takada’s star power…Sakuraba proudly called himself a pro wrestler. Kiyoshi Tamura, Antonio Inoki’s appearances, Kendo Kashin fighting Ryan Gracie, Yoshihiro Takayama. I think I’m forgetting a few others, but PRIDE did try to market them at one point…
I wouldn’t argue that PRIDE and K-1 hadn’t tried to market pro wrestlers, because they did. However, this talk of “karma” is ridiculous. How dare they have had disrespected a pseudosport noted for things in Ring Of Hell like raping trainees with bananas!
Additionally, while pro wrestlers were important in building MMA, the pro wrestlers that succeeded in the sport often weren’t megadraws: Sakuraba became a draw because of MMA, not in spite of it. Same with Fujita. Those guys in turn birthed a number of name stars like Cro-Cop, Fedor, Wanderlei, Rampage, etc etc etc that powered PRIDE for years. The success helped bring in talents that were not pro wrestlers (like Yoshida), but when PRIDE was cancelled from TV and went under, the resulting parking of the sport for a year and the departure or aging of virtually all the big names (with Yamamoto pursing the Olympics and the retirement of Sudo), along with the Akiyama scandal really did the damage.
MMA in Japan (on the larger scale) was built on the names of Nobuhio Takada, Antonio Inoki, & The Gracie Name. Those three names are the ones who brought over all the Pro Wrestling fans into MMA.
Takada vs. Rickson at Pride 1 and Funaki vs. Rickson at Colosseum 2000 were huge events. Yes, guys like Sakuraba & Fujita were not huge in Pro Wrestling before MMA, but…
Fujita was built up as Inoki’s Protege…. Sakuraba promoted as a Pro Wrestler. The Judoka such as Yoshida & Ogawa brought in even more fans, but that is now
Without Takada & Inoki primarily, MMA would have never become big in Japan. That is why there is a certain level of karma too it. It was Pro Wrestlers who built the foundation’s of MMA in Japan.
Another point. Sakuraba became popular because he represented Takada Dojo. Him beating Royler, Royce, & Renzo was sort of a revenge angle for Takada losing twice by armbar to Rickson. It was all Pro Wrestling themed at the time. Not just promoting towards Pro Wrestling fans. It was presented as basically a Pro Wrestler vs. A Gracie. Hence why Sakuraba got the nickname “The Gracie Hunter”.
As you can see, this all correlates back to Takada’s Pro Wrestling affiliations. Not sure if you guys were around durnig this time. Or perhaps you were and you just didn’t follow real closely the Japanese scene. What Zach Arnold is saying is spot on. It’s not even really a debatable issue for people who really know the history of MMA in Japan.
For comparison:
Dream 6 did a 9.0 and 5 did a 10.
Regarding Japan and pro-wrestling. It was the bouts with wrestlers that generally did the really big numbers.
Also: The Shockwave combo card never did 90k, it did 78k. The venue does not hold 90k.
That number is like the Wrestlemania figure of 91k…sounds good, but did not happen.
Actually 45, I was around, and Zach’s claim is “debatable.” By the way you normally carry yourself, I find it hard to believe that you know anything about the history of Japanese MMA.
Zach says: “it was pro-wrestling’s star power that carried the major Japanese shows. Once the pro-wrestling star factory dried up and got damaged by MMA, it soon became a self-fulfilling prophecy.”
Sakuraba was not a product of the “pro-wrestling star factory.” Sakuraba earned his name in MMA. If he had sucked, he would not have been a draw. Just like alot of the Japanese wrestlers who sucked at MMA were not draws. Same with Fujita…if he had sucked at MMA, his pro-wrestling background would have meant nothing. It wasnt like any pro-wrestling star could have “carried” MMA in Japan.
Last time I checked, Pride disappeared because of the Yakuza scandal, not because any pro-wrestling-MMA-star-factory dried up.
Bob Sapp made MMA huge circa 2003. Last time I checked he wasnt part of the Japanese pro-wrestling star-factory. Yes, he did pro-wrestling and acted like a pro-wrestler, but he made his reputation in K1/MMA. As stated before, all of the foreign fighters were obviously not japanese pro-wrestlers, and only a VERY select few japanese pro-wrestlers made a successful transition to MMA stardom.
I’m not saying there isnt a grain of truth to Zach’s claim, but this karma stuff is all in Zach’s (and 45’s) head.
If anything, the lack of Japanese star-power period has led to the decline of Japanese MMA. It wasnt because they were wrestlers that they did big numbers for pride. It was because they were quality fighters.
There is a lack of real Japanese stars rights in MMA right now.
Takada vs. Rickson at Pride 1 and Funaki vs. Rickson at Colosseum 2000 were huge events.
Rickson/Funaki only filled half the dome.
Yes, guys like Sakuraba & Fujita were not huge in Pro Wrestling before MMA, but…
So, wait, I’m confused. MMA in Japan died because MMA killed pro wrestling’s star making abilities, but the most successful names were, in general, guys who weren’t stars in pro wrestling?
Another point. Sakuraba became popular because he represented Takada Dojo.
Again, doesn’t matter. The best argument you can make from this perspective is that the star makers left pro wrestling and migrated to MMA, where they successfully navigated the waters until the yakuza scandal and the collapse of PRIDE. The remaining promoters lack the foreign names that were popular and are stuck with aging ex-draws incapable of winning against midrange competition. That is a result of a number of things that occurred over that same time span, not merely because pro wrestling was shunted to also-ran status.
If anything, the lack of Japanese star-power period has led to the decline of Japanese MMA. It wasnt because they were wrestlers that they did big numbers for pride. It was because they were quality fighters.
There is a lack of real Japanese stars rights in MMA right now.
Absolutely correct. All the pro wrestlers in Japan could have tried MMA from 93-00, and if they all failed badly, the sport never would have gone anywhere. Today, where is the next Sakuraba? Well, he ended up despised, shelved, and now he’s on his way to the US. There’s no one in reserve.
If this event aired at midnight what should the ratings have been? FEG needs time to build DREAM but i fear that with the Japanese economy in such a bad way and the ratings being bad,they wont get any. I think Mr Ishii will have plans for a new MMA org.
I feel the only option for both DREAM and Sengoku is to merge.
I think at this point, if DREAM folds, FEG won’t attempt at creating another MMA organization. It doesn’t make sense to try for a third time. Although I could see FEG unloading the DREAM name to Real Entertainment (ex-DSE staff).
“So, wait, I’m confused. MMA in Japan died because MMA killed pro wrestling’s star making abilities, but the most successful names were, in general, guys who weren’t stars in pro wrestling?”
Very simple here…
1. The BIGGEST MMA Stars saw the potential in MMA and used their name values to transition from Pro Wrestling to MMA.
2. In addition to their name values, they either competed themselves (Takada), or used fellow Pro Wrestlers (Fujita, Sakuraba, Etc…) to push MMA ino popularity.
3. Takada’s name helped build Sakuraba. Not in terms of talent, but in terms of drawing power.
4. As guys like Takada, Inoki, Funaki, Suzuki, Maeda (Remember RINGS?) kind of got exposed as being frauds… And they were proven not to be legit competitors, the Pro Wrestling influence died off.
Even before the Yakazu scandal, there was a decline in popularity of MMA in Japan. The Scandal quickened the decline, but it likely would have happened anyways.
Yes, even as guys like Takada & Onoki’s influence dwindled, there were some stars that emerged. Mainly Judoka’s such as Yoshida & Ogawa. However, that was just slowing down a sinking ship in my opinion.
MMA’s foundation was built by Pro Wrestlers as pop culture. They didn’t build it as a sport. It was going to fail eventually anyways.
But it is funny how all these Pro Wrestlers switched over towards MMA, and despite this, MMA is now still less popular then Pro Wrestling.
Kind of reminds me of WWF vs. WCW. WCW had their moments. They were more popular. But in the end, it was the original (WWF) that reigned supreme.
What you just said made no sense to your argument and has no connection to reality.
Even before the Yakazu scandal, there was a decline in popularity of MMA in Japan. The Scandal quickened the decline, but it likely would have happened anyways.
Completely untestable hypothesis. Reminds me of arguments made about the problems faced by the NHL or open wheel racing as a result of work stoppages/promotional splits. Besides, nowhere in your argument do you even reference K-1 and its lightweight stars, circa 2005/2006. Its as if Kid Yamamoto never existed, in part because clearly his connections to puroresu were, what, nonexistent?
I think everybody is overreacting. With very notable exceptions cards with smaller guys ALWAYS do smaller business. WEC doesn’t do great numbers in the States and boom is ongoing here. This is the smallest major show I think there has ever been. There was 1 fight above 155 and 6 below it. This was the new WEC version Japan. Considering how cheap it is to pay most of the little guys i’m quite positive this show made money if nearly 20,000 people showed up for it. The biggest WEC show of all time put 14K at Arco Arena for Jens vs Urijah and that is a COMPLETE outlier of all other WEC shows. Little guys only draw hardcores. That’s the truth of this matter. Even in Japan. ESPECIALLY in Japan where they love the freakshows.
Terrible ratings!
I am just waiting for Ikuhisa Minowa to start taking more pro-wrestling bookings.. 🙂
What I would like to know is the issue of college wrestlers in Japan. MMA is not the powerhouse it once was so will pro-wrestling gain from this.
Tell me which points lack reality. Specifically.
MMA was started in Japan through Shooto, Pancrase, and RINGS mostly. There was stuff ike UWFi before this, but really MMA started with those organizations. Shooto was more of a pure sport, but was the least popular of the 3. Then Pride came along and it was RINGS vs. Pride for a little while, but not much of a contest as RINGS was on their way down. Pancrase, RINGS, and Pride all were founded by Pro Wrestlers.
The reason I haven’t brought up Kid Yamamoto is because K-1 was really just a side item for MMA during this period. Yes, they put on some MMA fights, but they were still primarily K-1 Style Fights. They never really made a big push as MMA until Hero’s was around, and even then Hero’s never took off as a brand, so they had to change the name to DREAM.
In terms of what really made MMA in Japan, it was Pro Wrestling that started it.
So where does DREAM go from here? Obviously there are circumstances contributing to the poor rating; lack of star power, poor timeslot.
LOL @ 45 trying to give everyone a history lesson in Japanese MMA. Stick to what you know…looking at the fight finder and TUF.
The problem with this argument is that about 4-5 years pass between puroresu’s death and the PRIDE scandal. None of what happens then is covered. Big native stars like Yamamoto, Yoshida, Akiyama, and Sudo are completely ignored, smaller names like Gomi and Kawajiri the same, and the death/reformation of HERO’S is just brushed off as if it had nothing to do with any of them. The gaijin don’t matter, PRIDE’s purchase doesn’t matter, and so on. Its an enormously myopic view, but the best part about your argument is that you seem to be arguing that by stating that pro wrestling’s decline didn’t kill MMA, you must ignore what happened in 1993 or 1997 to get MMA to where it was. Those ideas are not mutually exclusive.
45, you keep missing the point…as usual.
Nobody is saying that puroresu didnt lead to the birth of MMA in Japan. That is obvious.
We’re all saying the puroresu is not what kept MMA afloat, as Zach has stated. He is saying that during “the past 10-12 years” pro-wrestling stars “carried” MMA. The fact of the matter is, MMA carried MMA during that time. Fighters like Sak were not pro-wrestlers who were “carrying” japanese MMA on their shoulders, they were fighters who were carrying Japanese MMA on their shoulders (with the help of some foreign talent).
What myself and others are arguing against is that somehow MMA karmically deserved to die because it drained puroresu of all its stars. Guys like Sak were MMA stars, not puroresu stars. Period.
Sakuraba vs. the Gracie clan absolutely MADE the mma boom in Japan. I’m not sure how much was related to puroresu, but him taking out the family of LEGENDS who had not tasted loss stamped him as an icon.
Then you saw Sakuraba vs. just about every foreign monster imaginable and Bob Sapp vs. every Japanese “saviour” until they worn-out shells or punch-scared sissies.
The pro wrestling presentation and storylines were a big part for sure, but the “pro wrestling star maker” thing…I’m not so sure on here. In all honestly if there’s one person that knows the mma/puro scene in Japan, it’s Zach – so I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
“LOL @ 45 trying to give everyone a history lesson in Japanese MMA. Stick to what you know…looking at the fight finder and TUF.”
Yeah, because your entire contribution to this post was just to bash another individual. Why even post then?
You might not agree with my viewpoint, but it’s funny how I get discredited in my knowledge of MMA just because I am more in favor of Zuffa in my other posts.
Alan,
I’m not saying it doesn’t matter. I was supporting Zach Arnold’s point (which people bashed at the start). Which is that their a certain karma to how things worked out.
“Yeah, because your entire contribution to this post was just to bash another individual. Why even post then?”
Because I think you’re a moron and I enjoy laughing at you…well, its more of a giggle, not a full on LOL.
Gaijin — It is related to pro wrestling because Takada and Yoji Anjoh started it in UWF-i. Takada could not win against the Gracie clan, but his pupil Kazushi Sakuraba could. That is the storyline, that is how it relates.
Ignoring pro wrestling comments, connections and so on right now, this should did poorly in the ratings because there was no star power on it. Period. The MMA boom is over in Japan, we all know this. A show like this would have done a little bit better a few years ago, but still a disappointment. There was no banner fight, there were no banner fighters.
Aoki, Kawajiri and Imanari were the stars of this show, and their competition was weak to say the least. I feel like if KID wasn’t injured and didn’t get his bye and had competed this conversation would be different. KID is a huge star still (relative to the sport) and he has nothing to do with pro wrestling outside of gaining steam in SHOOTO which has pro wrestling roots.
KID is famous because his father was an Olympic Freestyle Wrestler in Japan and of late he was supposed to enter the Olympics, but was injured.
Aoki, Kawajiri and Imaniri are great fighters, and against big name competition expect them to get more attention. The show just didn’t have the names, it didn’t have the Cro Cops, the Fujitas, the Genki Sudos that make for big shows in Japan.
I’m not saying it doesn’t matter. I was supporting Zach Arnold’s point (which people bashed at the start). Which is that their a certain karma to how things worked out.
Zach’s point isn’t that its karma (though that’s pretty ridiculous, and assumes pro wrestling has some sort of moral superiority) as much as it is that MMA couldn’t possibly survive without pro wrestling, at least in Japan.
Yes Sakuraba was more of an MMA star than pro-wrestling star but isnt the main point that he was seen and promoted as a pro-wrestler by Pride, the fans, media etc.. Sakuraba just like Kaz Fujita and Kiyoshi Tamura will always be seen as pro-wrestlers first.
Look how K-1 built up the Sakuraba vs Tamura match and Tamura vs Funaki. They used all the pro-wrestling history.
The whole pro-wrestling/MMA divide in Japan is nowhere near as big as it is in the US.
I work for a Japanese Bank in London at the moment and when speaking to some of the young guys and girls about pro-wrestling and MMA they pretty much see it all as the same thing but just different rules.
Look how K-1 built up the Sakuraba vs Tamura match and Tamura vs Funaki. They used all the pro-wrestling history.
See, you just argued against Zach’s hypothesis without even knowing it.
Japanese MMA will be forever tied to puroresu. That is well agreed upon by anyone who knows the history of the sport.
However, the idea that the decline of Japanese MMA was somehow karmically deserved or pre-determined is just silly.
I second Garret’s question
“So where does DREAM go from here? Obviously there are circumstances contributing to the poor rating; lack of star power, poor timeslot.”
How much can Kid presence help?
KID’s presence in an actual fight can help a lot. Japan is about fads and superstars, it is about watching the TV event that other people will be talking about. A KID fight is an event, an Aoki fight is not.
I’m not saying expect 10.0 ratings, but expect more than this.
I agree that Kid’s presence on the card will be a major boost to their ratings. The only question I have is how much of a negative impact (if any) the whole ‘pot party’ thing will have on his ability to draw. It boggles my mind that people get their nose bent out of joint over smoking a little reefer, but apparently it is a major taboo in Japan.
[…] all complain that the DREAM posters are way cooler than the UFC ones, but DREAM is the promotion struggling to stay relevant while the UFC continues to dominate. Maybe a change in marketing is one small step towards shaking […]
they actually arent as atrocious as the first appear. Dream is scheduled to do approximately half it’s shows on primetime TBS and half live on PPV. This event was one of the PPV shows and the TBS show actually aired at 1.20AM on a Sunday (with no public holiday on a Monday). Comparing this to past shows that aired during primtime on TBS is just crazy.
No need to worry about these ratings at all, they are fine.
> Japan is about fads and superstars, it is about watching the TV event that other people will be talking about.
Exactly. This guy’s smart.
Also, you cannot ignore the fact that MMA business in Japan has been on the decline because their love with MMA has grown too old. Remember that they are the ones who started MMA industry in 80’s, not UFC in 1993.
As for the show itself guys, if you watched it what did you think?
I thought it was garbage. The theme of the show seemed to be who would step up and show themslves as a potential opponent or nemesis of KID. Maeda and Imanari in particular were highlighted in some of the pre fight VTR’s but both guys’ fights failed to move the needle on the excitement level at all. The Imanari fight in particular was woeful. Neither he nor Yamamoto deserved to win IMO.
Not one fight on the show is worth watching again. About the only good thing to come of DREAM.7 is that Kawajiri appeared to challenge J.Z.at DREAM.9.
Hopefully K1 on the 29th will make up for it.
New Japan doing better than Dream. Go Tanahashi!!!
Bibiano vs. Otsuka and Wicky vs. Cullum were actually very good fights. The second one in my opinion was the best fight of the weekend.
I would have picked out Warren vs Beebe as the “best” fight of the night…..I wasn’t too fond of the Bibiano fight at all.
New Japan is doing better than NOAH, that is about it. I think it was already stated, but this was on PPV and aired on a late night time slot on actual television. Their next card will most likely feature KID and be treated like an event.
It’ll be different.
I hadn’t even thought of the pot thing. I’m not sure how that will affect things, but I know that KID was absolutely plastered all over this show. Commentary, shown in the crowd, anybody who has ever trained with him or fought him they made sure to mention KID about 14 times during the pre-fight package and the fight itself.
The show itself was fine. I think for the level of talent they had on display it was expected. I felt bad for Micah Miller in that decision, but it was expected to go that way.
from what ive read 2.0 – 3.0 is what they were expecting a new anime cartoon debuted in that timeslot a few weeks ago and got a 2.0 rating and it was considered a good rating if the april show gets below a 8.0 they may be in trouble since that will be in prime time
The fact that they are being put in that timeslot is a bad indicator, regardless of what the rating is.
Well, the new piece up at Bloody Elbow is written by “smoogy”…? Sorry, anybody that wants to be taken seriously should use their name or at the very least a realistic stage name, not a handle and especially not handle like “smoogy”.
Sorry smoogy, you sound like one of the kids on the message boards with a Teletubby puppet handle. And I put far more faith in Zach Arnolds opinions of the Japanese fight scene. He’s proven. When a guy called smoogy proves he knows something, then I will pay more attention… but not much because I don’t take information from a teletubby puppet seriously.
I dont think you have to just take “smoogy’s” word for it…the numbers speak for themselves. 2.4 for anything showing sunday night at 1:20am is really not that bad. Plus it was by far Dream’s weakest card to date (and I’m sure they know that). Pride Bushido never did great either and they put on some good shows (much better than Dream 7). There is a lack of depth at 145, IMO, and WEC has alot of them, so that could have something to do with it too.
@samscaff
When the show is not exciting it doesn’t mean that the division is lacking depth. Maeda & Imanari disappointed a little, but look at their fights against Torres and Brown (current WEC champions). It’s obvious that these guys are top tier MMA fighters.