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« | Home | »

WEC 3/1 Corpus Christi, TX. card

By Zach Arnold | March 1, 2009

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Event reports: MMA Weekly | Sherdog | MMA Junkie | MMA for Real | MMA Frenzy

Jens Pulver filled in for Frank Mir on commentary. It’s going to take some getting used to as far as looking at Pulver in a sweater vest.

TV: Versus, 9 PM EST/6 PM PST starting air time
Venue: American Bank Center in Corpus Christi, Texas

As it currently stands:

Dark matches

Main card

Topics: Media, MMA, WEC, Zach Arnold | 38 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

38 Responses to “WEC 3/1 Corpus Christi, TX. card”

  1. 45 Huddle says:

    Really looking forward to the main event.

  2. Alan Conceicao says:

    The main is decent, but the rest of the card is scrub city. Aldo is a -1300 favorite right now.

  3. 45 Huddle says:

    I agree. WEC 40 is a very stacked card. This one, not so much. Crunkilton getting injured only made it that much worse.

  4. skwirrl says:

    Seriously… Aldo vs who? Couldn’t Bartimus Prime fight him at a catchweight of 150 or something? THAT would be a sick fight.

  5. Michaelthebox says:

    Lets not just judge on the name value; Mickle and Lamas are quality fighters and reasonable opponents. Even though nobody has really heard of them, Fightmatrix has Lamas at 77 at LW (Bartimus at 54) and Mickle 36 at FW (Aldo at 19.)

  6. Alan Conceicao says:

    I’m not judging them purely on name value, I’m judging them on what the oddsmakers think of them too. According to them, these are mismatches, and I tend to agree given what I know about the opposition both men have fought. Adding to that, I’ve seen Mickle fight, and he ain’t great. Then again, I suppose Bart isn’t either, but then again I have to wonder why I should care about a fight with two midwestern journeymen. Seriously, Palaszewski is taking a pretty healthy step down or two from the guys he was fighting in the IFL in fighting Mickle.

  7. Michaelthebox says:

    Aldo is fighting Mickle. Bartimus is fighting Lamas.

    Oddsmakers take bettor behavior into account when making odds, which means oddsmakers also take into account that some fighters are much better known than others.

  8. Alan Conceicao says:

    And rationally, do you think the fact that Aldo is at -1300 reflects soley on Mickle being comparatively unknown? I’ve seen his IFO bout and I’m guessing the pros paid to make lines out have as well, along with many other fights of his.

    As for Bartimus fighting the local undefeated guy, A) Palaszewski is a far cry from being an elite fighter B) Lamas probably is too. I understand its last minute matchmaking, but I wasn’t too thrilled for Crunkilton/Palaszewski either. And both are steps down from Horodecki, Miller, Schultz, Menjivar, etc. Its fine for a minor league show for the WEC, but no one needs to pretend that its leaps and bounds better than what we saw on the Affliction undercard/IFL/Bodog/ShoXC/whatever you can think of that usually gets crapped on.

  9. Michaelthebox says:

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but lines are generally set at what the bookies expect the public to bet so that an even amount of money will be on either side, correct? If so, that will take into account both the public’s knowledge (seen Mickle fight, he’s not very good) and the public’s ignorance (who the hell is Lamas? Bet on the other guy.)

    Anyway, I’m not saying its a good undercard, I’m saying those two fights might not be the complete squash matches that some seem to think.

    Or rather, an even amount of money paid out on either side, which makes the same difference (odds set according to the public expectation, not according to what the true odds of the fight actually are.)

  10. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    mtb: precisely correct.

    The line doesn’t reflect the talent of the fighters unless they expect only people familiar with the fighters to be betting on the fight.

  11. Alan Conceicao says:

    They also move based on the action from the bettors. I can’t even remember the last time any UFC bout was over -800. If people were seeing any potential value in Mickle, there would be smart money pouring in and the line would once more shift. There’s none.

  12. Alan Conceicao says:

    In any case, just because there’s the slight possibility that one of them may take an extended beating or whatever doesn’t make the fight a good one in advance. People crap on stuff like the De La Hoya/Pacquiao undercard because of lousy matchmaking, but if all the favorites blow out their overmatched opponents in 90 seconds and allow for a prelim or two to make TV here, I’m sure the event will be touted as a “great action show”.

  13. 45 Huddle says:

    Alan, that is comical.

    1. Boxing has a long history of bad undercard fights. Zuffa has a soild history of solid undercard fights. This one card happens not to be that good, but this is not the norm.

    2. This is a free card on TV. Boxing puts horrible undercards on PPV events.

  14. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    I feel a little bad for WEC these days actually, because with all these divisions disappearing, it’s hard to make up cards. You’ve got two lame duck Welterweight fights and you lost your main event (would have lost it anyway, but let’s pretend).

    I’m surprised that they haven’t made an announcement about how they’re going to bring the promotion back up to 4 belt divisions, honestly.

  15. 45 Huddle says:

    And Flyweight is hard to get interested in as a 4th weight division. At least for me.

    They have 9 cards a year. If each champion fights 3 times per year… And each card with a title fight has a #1 Contender’s fight….

    already that is 24 fights…. They average about 4 to 5 fights per event… So around 40 fights they are given on their live shows.

    Which means they have very little room to build up the lesser fighters on television.

    It’s such a hotbed of smaller talent, but this isn’t exactly the perfect model to get these guys the exposure (bad network, and little fight time).

  16. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    I don’t have a philosophical problem with flyweight, but I’m interested to see just who would be competing in this mythical division, because frankly Bantamweight is pretty slim pickings already.

    But you do have to have a division to develop fighters, so someone has to step up to the plate.

  17. skwirrl says:

    “2. This is a free card on TV. Boxing puts horrible undercards on PPV events.”

    undercard for tonight’s show is chris john vs rocky juarez. Thats straight legit

  18. 45 Huddle says:

    1 Fight Undercard. Let me jump into the streets and celebrate!!

  19. Alan Conceicao says:

    I guess they could do a 4 fight undercard if HBO was only willing to commit 4 hours to televising it. Really, the better comparison for the WEC ratings and talent wise is ESPN Friday Night Fights anyhow.

  20. 45 Huddle says:

    You are comparing the level of talent in the WEC to ESPN Friday Night Fights?

    ESPN puts on up and coming fighters and over the hill fighters. The WEC showcases Top 10 fighters in the lower weight classes all the time.

  21. Alan Conceicao says:

    You are comparing the level of talent in the WEC to ESPN Friday Night Fights?

    That’s pretty much the deal, yeah. They feature world champions no one cares about in unpopular weight classes or rising talent. The last WEC event was headlined by a couple guys who aren’t even top 15 fighters in their weight class. Last night, the RING Magazine #3 light heavyweight was on ESPN2. I’d say its a worthy comparison.

  22. Alan Conceicao says:

    (can be merged to the post above)

    Oh yeah, the TV ratings are about the same too. FNF usually does a .5, just like the WEC.

  23. 45 Huddle says:

    Whether or not the lighter guys are popular makes little difference. We are getting many of the best fighters in the world for free. They are UFC caliber PPV Cards, that are only free because more fans haven’t been as exposed. Just going by Sherdog’s rankings…

    WEC 39 – #1 vs. #2 Featherweights in the world.

    WEC 40 – #1 vs. #6 Bantamweights in the world. And that is only after the #3 fighter had to cancel due to injury. Also includes two Top 10 Featherweights (Curran & Fabiano), & Top 10 Bantamweight (Tapia). Not to mention Assuncao, who is #10 in my own rankings.

    From a talent perspective, the WEC is top tier. Their model might be different then boxings, and we get some lesser Top Tier fighters on the cards, but overall, those cards have some of the best talent in those weight classes. To even compare talent levels with ESPN FNF’s is comical.

  24. 45 Huddle says:

    An even easier comparison.

    Where is the #1 135 lbs boxer showcased? On HBO World Championship Boxing. Where is the #1 135 lbs MMA fighter showcased? In the WEC.

    Where is the #1 147 lbs boxer showcased? On HBO World Championship Boxing. Where is the #1 145 lbs MMA fighter showcased? In the WEC.

    Seems to me that the WEC is the WCB of smaller fighters.

    Just because they have a different model due to the nature of the sport and give us lower ranked fights… Doesn’t mean the WEC is at the level of ESPN FNF. That’s just funny.

  25. Alan Conceicao says:

    There’s been plenty of world championship fights on ESPN2. Matter of fact, they had one on the network, what, 4 weeks ago? I suppose it doesn’t count because its not as “legitimate” a title as Carlos Condit’s?

    My favorite part is when you compare weight classes by the weights themselves rather than the title. The best 135 lb fighter in boxing was on HBO last night, true. Oddly, though, the best bantamweight fighters in the world generally aren’t on any US network with any regularity (sounds familiar!). The last time one was, it was Telefutura and the low budget HBO Latino events.

  26. 45 Huddle says:

    Yeah, because Condit’s title is still around right. And it’s not like anybody was claiming it was a real title fight. Besides for promotional purposes (for the WEC), I doubt even Dana White would make a claim that the belt was actually legit. And the fact that they merged that weight class into the UFC shows it.

    Boxing has so many weight classes and so many titles, that to say ESPN FNF had a world title fight is kind of a joke. Unless it is The RING Belt, it really isn’t a championship fight.

    The WEC is home to two P4P Top 10 fighters. And is also home to a previous one (Faber). They had 5 LEGIT World Title Fights last year. They are bringing in Flyweights now (which I have said I’m not a fan of), but something tells me within a year, that belt will likely be the #1 in the world at that weight class as well.

    It would be like taking boxing’s Welterweight to Featherweight Classes (5 total), condensing them into 3… And having the majority of the top fighters competing on free TV.

    That just isn’t happening on ESPN FNF. That is happpening (and will happen) in the WEC.

    The WEC is the World Championship Boxing of lighter fighters. Plain and simple.

    The nearest thing that Zuffa has to FNF is UFC Fight Night. That’s about it. The WEC Shows are without question a step above that.

  27. Alan Conceicao says:

    “Like taking boxing’s featherweight division and moving it to free TV”? No, doggie. Boxing’s featherweight division is a well established weight class who’s stars have been heavily promoted for decades in the US. The WEC featherweight and bantamweight divisions are not comparable in any way other than name. They’re more like minimumweight or light fly or other divisions that are historically throwaways…and the kind of thing ESPN2, Telefutura, Versus, etc. would show. You know, because they’re B-level programs, just like the WEC.

    WCB of lighter fighters….lol. You call me when WCB shows something like Palaszewski/Lamas. Hell, call me when Shobox does.

  28. 45 Huddle says:

    So you are telling me that Brown/Garcia isn’t world class, and the #1 vs. #3 in the world? It is.

    MMA has a different business model then boxing. Fans just don’t follow the top top top tier fighters. They also follow the undercard guys, which include fighters like Bart and Crunkilton. It also means that more guys get exposure. And that is why Zuffa is getting 350,000 PPV Buys for Franklin/Henderson… And boxing can’t even get 500,000 combined for 2 PPV’s that included Calzaghe, RJJ, Hopkins, and Pavlik.

    But that doesn’t mean that the WEC doesn’t put on the highest caliber fights in addition to guys like Crunkilton, Varner, and others…. Because they do.

    I love it how you find one example of a last minute fight (due to Crunkilton being injured) to put down the WEC. It’s like people constantly using Couture/Lesnar as their reasoning for saying that the Zuffa is only entertainment based. Yet it completely goes against the 10 other main events since which have been very high caliber fights. Franklin/Henderson, Penn/GSP, Griffin/Evans, etc….

  29. Alan Conceicao says:

    Its a world class fight in a weight class no one in the world cares about, just like the world class fights that end up on ESPN, for the most part. As for boxing fans not following guys on undercards but MMA fans following Rich Crunkilton or comparing him to Rich Franklin in terms of status? Hilarious material.

    Its not just the last minute fight. Its the huge mismatch and the fight between two scrappy dudes that are like top 30 at best under the world title fight nobody is going to watch and the resulting reaction from the MMA fanbase. They have ratings like the IFL did on MyNetwork TV and roughly similar talent. Why aren’t they a minor league again?

  30. 45 Huddle says:

    Hilarious? Is that why MMA undercards have very good crowds, and boxing events typically have nobody showing up until close to the main event? MMA fans follow the undercard fighters. To deny that makes no sense.

    And now you are comparing the talent levels of the WEC to the IFL? You have got to be trolling now.

    The IFL had basically no Top 10 talent. The WEC has more then 8 guys who are despite their very small talent pool (compared to the UFC).

  31. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    Brown is a very good fighter, but I think you’re seriously overselling Garcia.

  32. Alan Conceicao says:

    Is that why MMA undercards have very good crowds, and boxing events typically have nobody showing up until close to the main event?

    Its one thing to say people care about the chief support bouts for the UFC (they don’t show up for most of the dark matches these days there either). Its another thing to say people care about Rich Crunkilton or any of those guys on WEC undercards, especially when they’re in front of half full ballrooms in Vegas.

    And now you are comparing the talent levels of the WEC to the IFL? You have got to be trolling now.

    You’re right. The IFL clearly had a superior lightweight division. Not even close, actually.

  33. 45 Huddle says:

    “Its one thing to say people care about the chief support bouts for the UFC (they don’t show up for most of the dark matches these days there either). Its another thing to say people care about Rich Crunkilton or any of those guys on WEC undercards, especially when they’re in front of half full ballrooms in Vegas.”

    Yeah, because the WEC had half filled ballrooms for Faber/Pulver and Varner/Cerrone. WEC & UFC cards typically have the vast majority of the crowds there during the entire telecast, which includes 4 to 5 fights. And it ain’t too shaby even before that.

    As for the IFL…. The same IFL Lightweight Division that had to create a brand new division for Wagnney Fabiano because they were afraid that he would beat their posterboy?… Yeah, that is one great division.

  34. Alan Conceicao says:

    You’re right: They’ve gotten decent crowds for a couple events highlighting the same exact guy in his home state. WEC 37 and the 353 people who paid to go? Doesn’t count, because WEC is major league!

    As for the IFL, some guy who lost his last three fights there is on the verge of a WEC title bout and most of the better guys from it are in the UFC. Looks like it had better talent. Sorry, doggie.

  35. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    …In a venue that doesn’t even hold 700 people, drawing a gate over $90,000. Honestly that doesn’t seem that bad to me.

  36. 45 Huddle says:

    You keep going back to the Lightweight Division to prove your point. Nobody (including myself) is saying that the WEC Lightweight Division is great. It obviously isn’t.

    The Featherweight & Bantamweight Divisions are great. And they are elite level fighters that we get to see on free TV. If you can’t appreciate the pinnacle of the sport, I don’t know what else to say.

  37. Alan Conceicao says:

    …In a venue that doesn’t even hold 700 people, drawing a gate over $90,000. Honestly that doesn’t seem that bad to me.

    It doesn’t hold 700 people? It has that much seating in the balconies alone. Have you ever even been there?

  38. Alan Conceicao says:

    You keep going back to the Lightweight Division to prove your point. Nobody (including myself) is saying that the WEC Lightweight Division is great. It obviously isn’t.

    Its second rate. Like the WEC itself is promoted.

    The Featherweight & Bantamweight Divisions are great. And they are elite level fighters that we get to see on free TV. If you can’t appreciate the pinnacle of the sport, I don’t know what else to say.

    And when there are good fights, that is nice and all, just like when Shooto or DEEP have great fights between little guys no one cares about. Shooto is a second rate promotion too. So is DEEP.

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