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Is ‘mmalogic’ connected to Zuffa?
By Zach Arnold | January 29, 2009
Update: MMA Junkie and MMA Mania have posted information regarding Tom Atencio denying the reports.
So, Bloody Elbow is pushing a story that Affliction wants to make peace with UFC and that the MMA operations will soon be finished. Naturally, it’s curious that this type of ‘inside’ news would be broken on a blog as opposed to one of the independent sites (Sherdog, MMA Weekly, etc.)
The poster on Bloody Elbow, ‘mmalogic‘, is being pushed as a credible source on past MMA stories. As you will note from comments posted last September on Bloody Elbow, site readers over there started connecting the dots in regards to who the poster is.
What makes this interesting is that by leaking claims that Affliction wants to wave the white flag in terms of no longer competing with Zuffa that it all but eliminates any sort of leverage Atencio might or might not have if he is in fact doing this.
It’s no secret that Zuffa employees read message boards, blogs, etc. What is interesting is whether or not more and more UFC employees will start using blogs to manipulate the message they want the public to hear. The organization already has friendly broadsheet media outlets that aren’t willing to push back against them, and then you add on the generally UFC-safe Yahoo Sports coverage team, and what you end up with is a pretty sophisticated strategy to influence both hardcore and casual MMA fans.
If Zuffa employees are taking a more active role in blogs, then it certainly signals a rise in the way MMA blogs will be used as communication outlets for UFC, WEC, etc. and perhaps astroturfing in the future.
Topics: Affliction, Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 105 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Having our employees post on MMA blogs in an attempt to manipulate coverage sounds a little far fetched.
I hope you meant ‘your’ and not ‘our’. đ
Interesting. Also, that same post by mmalogic is quite ironic for another reason.
“If there were an IQ read out for each user I could better taylor[sic] my message so you could understand:”
Read out instead of readout is wrong too, but thatâs not as glaring.
Heh. đ
Jokes aside, I’m sure Zuffa leaks information whenever and wherever they can if it’s beneficial for them to do so, but my gut instinct is that mmalogic is either hamming up his involvement with Zuffa or he’s doing this of his own volition.
It is an interesting question though, and makes me wonder if any diabolical geniuses work at Zuffa.
Apparently, Tom Atencio was just on Hardcore Sports Radio and said it’s all false. There are a bunch of kids on the Sherdog forum listening now, and the link is
http://hardcoresportsradio.com/
I haven’t been able to listen, but it’s worth checking to see if it’s true or not.
This is pretty disconcerting as someone who helps run one of the bigger MMA forums. Especially when there is a user who seems to post a lot of threads referring to this “Tom Leykis show” that Atencio is now saying he has never appeared on.
First, this is what I posted in the other thread, then I’m going to respond to what Luke Thomas just wrote on Bloody Elbow.
lol at Zuffa breaking the news of Affliction MMAâs death while hiding behind a psuedonym on Bloody Elbow. Anyone who has read Bloody Elbowâs comments section long enough knows that the poster called âmmalogicâ works for Zuffa and is not even particularly good at hiding it.
Example: In the comments section of a post from a few months back, âmmalogicâ wrote this: âZuffa adjusted their sponsorship model from creating OUR own sponsorsâ (capitalization added by me).
When another user pointed out what âmmalogicâ just said and asked if heâs Joe Silva or someone else like that, âmmalogicâ responded with this non-denial and followed it with flattery towards his accuser: âI wonât say who I am but I will say who you are judging by your past comments and analysis ⌠You either own your own business, have owned your own business or very high up in a business either in Marketing or Sales⌠Did I call it?â
When the original accuser responded by saying that he just graduated with a degree in marketing and finance, âmmalogicâ responded with more flattery: âYou got the head for it⌠try to hook up with a good consulting firm â you will do well.â
In this case, itâs easy to see how high-level executives at Zuffa would know so much about Affliction MMAâs pending demise, particularly if Affliction has contacted Zuffa to work out a peace deal. So, what do they do? They make a post about it under their âmmalogicâ psuedonym to give themselves more leverage in the negotiations for the aforementioned peace deal (Affliction has even less leverage in negotiations if everyone is already reading about how little leverage they have and how their MMA branch is about to go out of business anyway).
A lot of people think that the UFC doesnât care about blogs, but they must realize what kind of influence a very popular blog like Bloody Elbow has, based on the fact that they (Zuffa) are willing to take the time and effort to try to spread information and influence opinions by making posts under psuedonyms like âmmalogic.â
By the way, the URL of the aforementioned post (which contains the slip-up by âmmalogicâ near the end) is:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/9/28/623407/more-on-the-financial-stru
lol, even putting aside how blatant it is in his comments, look at the previous FanPost blog entries by âmmalogicâ (http://www.sbnation.com/users/mmalogic/blog):
Aoki not a top five fighter (in January 2009), EliteXC ratings are below CBSâ expectations and now ProElite people are looking for work, HBO is unhappy with the Affliction/Golden Boy partnership, Randy Couture to Headline UFC 91 (before it was widely reported), and a post about why Zuffa has no reason to co-promote with anyone. Like I said, not very subtle. Iâm guessing they will try to be more subtle when posting under psuedonyms in the future.
Now, as a separate post about what Luke Thomas just posted on Bloody Elbow, I think he is misinterpreting the point of Zach’s post. I don’t think that Zach or anyone else is saying that Bloody Elbow’s “coverage is nothing more than a mouthpiece or distribution channel for Zuffa.” It’s not that Bloody Elbow is guilty of anything, it’s that this one specific poster “mmalogic” certainly appears to be a Zuffa employee from looking at the evidence.
As for Bloody Elbow not having any dialogue with the UFC, this is informal communication, but literally one post down from Luke’s, Michael Rome writes, “I have been digging at this story for the last 3 or 4 hours since I first heard it. I believe it to be true. A source at UFC informed that Lorenzo Fertitta was contacted today by Affliction looking for a ‘beneficial’ way out.” There’s nothing wrong with having communications with the UFC.
Also, it doesn’t take “some grand Zuffa scheme” for this to happen. “Astroturfing” is something that corporations have been caught doing in the past, it’s probably not that hard for them to do it, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they had other screen names on other sites doing the same thing.
Again, it doesn’t mean that Bloody Elbow has done anything wrong, and I don’t think anyone is suggesting that.
As for Tom Atencio denying that his MMA promotion is on the verge of going out of business, of course he’s going to say that.
Realistically, even before any of this came out today, I think the vast majority of people on here have thought for weeks that Affliction’s MMA division would be kaput shortly after their second show (if not before their second show).
It’s likely that it’s over except for the negotiations of how, and under what financial terms, Affliction will stop promoting MMA shows and will re-enter the fray as one of the biggest sponsors of UFC fighters. Zuffa has a lot more leverage than Affliction already, and they attempted to tip the scales of leverage in their direction even further with that post made under one of their psuedonyms — “mmalogic” (and I only use the plural form “psuedonyms” because it would be naive to think that if they’re using one psuedonym that it’s the only one that they have on any web site). Now Atencio is trying to tip the scales of leverage back in his direction by denying that they’re getting out of the MMA promotion business. In that respect, it’s no different than what Zuffa is doing, with the big caveat being that Atencio is using his real name in those interviews, while Zuffa made their post under a psuedonym.
mehhhh
Danna seems to know whats up on other MMA orgs months before it goes public.
he told Millen that PRIDE was going to fold on live radio a few months before it officially happened. Millen denied this of course.
he did the same thing with EliteXC and with Affliction. One thing about Danna is that he has a big mouth. He’ll say a lot of un-couth things that are pretty accurate.
So anyway, UFC doesnt require such manipulations to buy out a competitor thats worth -23 million at this point.
I have said Logic is a shill since I first saw him. He’s not some genius, (check his spelling, Cung Lee in an actual fanpost? come on), so its obviously not Joe Silva or somebody inside ZUFFA with any mover and shaker juice. (Unless he’s such a deviant mind he did that to trick people. I guess it could be Dana with his spelling and thought process, probably on his IQ level.) Its my belief he’s either a straight up shill working for ZUFFA as a desk jockey or he’s a casual acquaintance of Joe Silva. Something like his housekeeper that likes MMA and chats him up on it. I’m sure that ZUFFA has zero problems with him making up lies within the bounds of his free speech and he can sling shit with credibility due to breaking a couple stories.
I actually guessed Shogun was supposed to be on the UFC 72 card before it hit any of the major sites. Shit before it hit anywhere. I’d look like a genius if I had posted it anywhere but NS.net. All based off something I originally saw in the chatbox that used to be on Smoogy’s site. (maybe its still there and i haven’t noticed.) If that was the case I could sling as much shit as this guy and claim “credibility.” On that same note starting net rumors is easy. I also played a joke on everybody’s favorite whippingboy forum that Kid Yamamoto was at Penn vs Pulver to study Penn’s style for an upcoming bout with Gomi at “Pride Reborn.” What this guy does is easy
I don’t blame BE for posting it though… It might be bullshit news – but I don’t see it as their responsibility to completely verify something as rumor. Though I think they lend him too much cred.
^^^ too calify the point above, Dana hasnt historically needed back-talk on MMA blogs to get a message across. He is usually quite opinionated on the subject of the financial viability of his competitors.
Doem – The Fertittas are worth about negative 2 billion in cash right now. They probably have about that in equity probably just shy a couple hundred million due to the economy. I doubt they should be the first ones to cast stones. But they are great at it via shills on the net.
^^^
really? havnt heard that. A lot of vegas developments are going down the shitter.
but the UFC is profitable is it not? that would be the only thing that matters
Yes, the UFC itself is still hugely profitable. If I remember correctly from the S&P report, their net profit in 2007 was something like $65 million or $70 million. I would imagine that it was much bigger in 2008.
BTW Zack – on a completely unrelated note – you still sticking to that 20K PPV buys number? ?? ??? ????
Ed. — I believed the prediction going in and logically think it will be close to it. If it’s a number like 75,000 or something shocking in that range, I will publicly praise Affliction for manufacturing a high PPV buyrate without major television.
On Ivan’s point though – hugely profitable but still with I beleive 350 million in loans coming due SOON. đ And the Fertitta’s have only equity to play with not liquid assets.
[…] Arnold is guessing that this could be the work of Zuffa. Luke Thomas says anyone who believes that is “wrong”. Oh […]
skwirrl— Zuffa’s $350 million loan is not due for another few years. It’s basically a “better if sold by” date, although that certainly doesn’t necessarily mean they’re going to sell before that date.
Ed. — It’s $325M USD in loan and $25M USD in a revolving line of credit. If memory serves me right, the due date is 2013. UFC is a very profitable operation right now.
Ivan I really think those loans in combination with the separate loans on their new casino, (which may actually have to get paid off OUT OF POCKET), really could pose a large issue for the organization. They are very lucky that Lesner has turned into a license to print money. And that all of a sudden their PPV numbers have gone through the roof. Looks great for their credit rating. Lucky them.
Here is the person who posted the “Tom Leykis” story on our forum. Zuffa Mole #2?
http://forums.mmanews.com/search.php?searchid=113457
From a marketing standpoint it’s all about Consumer Perception Filters – knowing how to bypass or manipulate them.
What are Consumer Perception Filters? It’s how each of us look at a particular product (company or government) and what influences our opinion about it and ultimately whether or not we purchase that product (or thought). Common CPFs are; backgrounds, age groups, upbringings, cultures, religions, financial status… you name it.
An extreme example:
Take an average middle-aged man living in the middle of America. There’s a knock at the door, he opens it, and there’s a guy there selling gold watches from inside his jacket. “No way, fake, stolen.” Closes the door.
Guy walks back into his living room, turns on the TV, commercials are on. “Ha, yeah right, they’re just trying to sell me things and make me part with my hard-earned money.”
Still sitting in his living room, the news comes on… and they sell him a war.
So what happened? His preconceived notions of the guy at the door and the TV commercials filtered them out. But when the news came on, his filters went up and allowed the information in – he TRUSTED the source. He also wasn’t aware that his beloved nightly news on NBC was owned by GE – a war profiteer.
The most successful companies (and governments) are way ahead of the curve. Just look into Megaphone software.
Still don’t believe me? That’s OK. It’s not like the guys I work with started a debate on a woman’s forum over which tampon was more comfortable as part of our market research… ; )
The fact of the matter is that if you don’t know you’re being sold something, you’ll probably buy it.
Ironically enough, if mmalogic has exposed himself as a Zuffa employee, then he will be less effective in swaying opinion.
I have 2 sources at Zuffa. Both were people I knew outside of the company before they joined it. There is no dialogue between me and the UFC, the people there have no idea who I am. They refuse to credential me or even put me on a press release list. It’s promotions like Affliction and Pro Elite that credential bloggers and give them all the access in the world that are more likely to influence writers.
Is he a shill? I don’t know. I’m pretty sure he works for Zuffa in some important capacity, he did give the website minute by minute updates on the Jon Fitch situation and reported the resolution well before it was announced. The fact that someone works for a company and posts under a psuedonym doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be able to post. Nate promoted the post because he has a very good track record on this stuff.
As far as debt goes…seriously Skwirri, I can’t do a debt financing course in comments, but you’re replacing reason with hope. They are in astounding shape.
No matches Smoogy – did you mislink or delete them already?
I wish a had a penny for everytime I read on Sherdog that Zuffa pays people to post on forums i’d be rich.
Come on now this is getting ridiculous mmalogic obviously has connections to someone at Zuffa but he’s upfront about it. To jump from that to some sort of big conspiracy between BE of all sites and Zuffa is laughable.
Now as far as Affliction goes, they’ve already tried to get out of the MMA business once it won’t shock me to see them try again. Are they done who knows really, but they are close to their endgame whether it’s one or two more shows it’s gameover for the t-shirt guys.
Rome I just don’t see how without liquidity if a bad event turns worse what they can do about it without massive refinancing or violating the terms of their loans. And Yes, honestly I HOPE ZUFFA would be forced to sell. I hate that company and hate the way they pressure fighters and are basically trying to form a monopoly so they can further blackball people. I used to show some faith in them, then the Pride shutdown killed a little of it. The last straw was pretty much when they acted in horrible faith towards Hellboy Hansen. (Not to mention any other fighters they have pressured or taken advantage of via their position as industry near monopoly, but Hellboy is the perfect storm of horseshit.) Since then I have the attitude towards them that he does. Dana White can go pound sand up his ass.
So its part hope on my side… But also belief that they are overextended right now and have no liquidity to deal with a longterm economic downturn. Maybe the Fertittas sell their share in Station… That may actually be the best course of action for them fiscally. But in this economy would you buy? FUCK THAT. Sleep in the streets mafia kids.
Sorry, I forgot you need to be signed up. Public link:
http://forums.mmanews.com/general-mma-forum/33696-hoax-affliction-announces-break-after-3rd-show.html
Astroturfing is quite a common practice on the web — especially on political and technological web sites. So, it should come as no surprise that the rise of this PR technique could/will happen soon enough on MMA blogs, since the blog scene in this industry is relatively robust.
The issue of raising the prospects of astroturfing here is not about one particular site but rather a whole group of sites, message boards, etc. related to a certain industry and how easy manipulation of not only readers but reporters can be done.
I believe this.
Affliction can’t keep on paying out this much money to cover base contracts, sponsorships, production costs, promotional costs, etc. And what are they getting out of it anyway? The amount of visibility they’re receiving for the amount of money they are spending is very small. Because everyone but Zuffa seems to be struggling right now, the MMA field is wide open and the limited press latches on to almost anything. If you watch MMA Live, HDNet, or read mainstream articles from ESPN, SI, Yahoo, etc. even the small promotions out there are getting press coverage. For the amount of money they are spending to get the extra hype and coverage, it doesn’t seem to be worth it at all.
And also, bringing in Trump, Golden Boy, and M-1 is just putting too many hands in the cookie jar. Basically, if you think you need Trump, Golden Boy, and M-1 to put on a fight card that people will watch and afterwards talk about, and a card that the MMA media will cover, then you have no business running a promotion in the first place.
Everything about Affliction is flawed. Them going under, which they inevitably will, has nothing to do with Zuffa planting moles all over the place. Zuffa is going to be running shows in the Phillipines, England (again), they just ran one in Ireland, they’re going to Germany, and back to Montreal again if not in more places internationally this year. They’re putting out a video game that will only grow the brand further. The WEC is slowly but surely gaining more attention. They keep breaking records on Spike. Zuffa doesn’t have to do anything at all to keep Affliction from going under. Affliction was doomed from the very beginning through their own poor decision making. And in the end, if they don’t make peace with Zuffa and if Zuffa continues to shut out the Affliction clothing line after Affliction stops promoting fights, then their base business is going to be in big trouble too, especially in this economy as people continue to stop spending so wastefully. Buying an Affliction shirt = wasteful spending.
If I must i’ll go out and personally buy an Affliction shirt just to support the company. I would much rather buy several pairs of Affliction boxers or socks since its totally not my style with their shirts. I wear snowboarder shit… But I’ll do my part if I must.
Plz Affliction – Tom if you’re getting this. Start making smaller Affliction items. Boxers or board shorts would be an awesome start. Your stuff is not my style but I would buy it just to support your organization.
Just a coincidence Smoogy – TheMMABooker and Subo used the same quote from Dana
“It is a good day today”
I don’t think Subo is a shill just a big UFC fan… So your guy could be one and the same. Just my opinion on him if they are the same person.
nm – slightly different quote – Subo âIt is a good day todayâ TheMMABooker âItâs a good day for MMA in the words of Dana Whiteâ
disregard me – I go stand alone in the corner now.
damn true that John Chandler – douchebags!
Thank you Fight Opinion trackbacks for letting me know that someone is stealing my material!
Guys,
So what if mmalogic is connected to Zuffa? I don’t think he really hides it – he’s never outright denied it.
Astroturfing is common practice. This post on FO is good because it makes people more aware of this practice but I’m glad that mmalogic is breaking news.
One thing – RapistBill who’s spamming the thread over at BE is probably a Zuffa guy as well right? His actions are a bit childish to say the least….
As the guy who originally pointed out that mmalogic is connected to Zuffa, I’m prone to believe he’s highly influential, or at least he talks to somebody who really knows their stuff at Zuffa. You can make up rumors, but a random messageboard mouthpiece isn’t going to come up with high-level analysis over the business of MMA. I’ve seen him mention in passing quality analysis I’ve never even seen anybody else in the blogosphere touch on. So if he is passing on rumors, its still coming from someone at Zuffa who really knows the business.
I agree that he most likely is. But the question is ‘so what’?
He’ll keep posting or he’ll change his username. Eventually we’ll figure out who the new mmalogic is but it will take sometime.
The MMA fanbase is great – I have so much fun participating in this community.
“But the question is âso whatâ?”
Exactly. Its not like the guy has ever really tried to hide it. He’s looked at as a reliable source because he keeps posting inside info that turns out to be accurate.
Maybe he’s spent the past 9 months building up cred just so that he could post a rumor in the hopes of finishing Affliction off. A little ridiculous, but not impossible.
I suspect we will know soon.
To everyone who is taking the position
that a person still has a right to post even if they’re a UFC employee: It’s not being a UFC employee that is objectionable, it’s the lack of
disclosure. It’s the fact that it’s information coming from the UFC,
information whose release benefits the UFC, but without public knowing that
it came from the UFC and being able to judge its veracity (or the motives for its release) in that context. THAT is what is objectionable about mmalogic. (now that mmalogic has been exposed, they will likely use other screen names instead— ones that haven’t been exposed)
For all anybody knows Joe Silva’s poolboy has been passing everybody second hand information and its exactly what ZUFFA wants them to hear.
“now that mmalogic has been exposed, they will likely use other screen names insteadâ ones that havenât been exposed)”
Uh, hmm? It hasn’t been a huge secret or anything, like you and Zach have blown the lid off a big coverup. mmalogic’s connections with Zuffa have been pretty common knowledge over at BE for a while. And he still posts there.
Mike Rome said “There is no dialogue between me and the UFC, the people there have no idea who I am.”
Are you sure about that mike? Not even Ike epstein? You’ve told people you applied to intern with Zuffa’s counsel, but didn’t get it…so it is a bit misleading to say there has been no contact…..Just a question, does the fact that you indirectly applied to work for them shade your coverage?
I don’t find it objectionable that mmalogic doesn’t come right out and say ‘I work for Zuffa’.
Plausible deniability – it looks crap on Zuffa’s part if this is ‘confirmed’ as true. If it’s confirmed that Zuffa is indeed astroturfing – broadsheets might start picking up the story and it’ll be a PR nightmare for Zuffa.
If that’s what some people are trying achieve – i.e. hang Zuffa out to dry with the national press – then so be it.
I don’t see the point at this stage. I don’t think anything despicable has been done.
It would be nice if Zuffa has an ‘official representative’ at BE but that’s never doing to happen…
As a first year law student, among the 100 or so places I sent applications for an internship, I emailed people at the UFC too. If they somehow remember my 3 line email and therefore know who I am, then there would be the one person I emailed that would know me (and it isn’t Epstein). In fact, there wasn’t even an internship program, I did a cold email just to see if there was any response.
The fact that you’d bring this up here is kind of pathetic, and really nobody’s business. Actually, I’ve told one person that, so good job giving that away. Other random places I threw apps into include: the DGA, Goldenboy (FTW Affliction!), the Los Angeles Lakers general counsel, the U.S. Attorney’s office, and about 75 law firms.
I should say though that as a law student that loves MMA, there aren’t a lot of dream jobs that encompass both. I don’t apologize at all for trying to land a dream job combining my work with my passion. And no, it doesn’t affect how I cover anything.
skwirrl,
You said: “And Yes, honestly I HOPE ZUFFA would be forced to sell.”
Fans like you scare me. Without Zuffa, this sport would just be a bunch of minor league promoters fighting with each other to put fights.
I think you fail to see how good of a job Zuffa has done.
Does anyone have any how UFC 93 and Affliction did on PPV?
Is a poster on a message board seriously worth a news story? And over 40 posts? I’d laugh my ass off if Lorenzo Fertitta “retired” from his fast sliding casino business to post on MMA message boards. Gives me great hope about their future.
I really should remember to wear my tin foil hat when ever I come to fight opinion, these conspiracy theories are so entertaining.
A guy who posts on a blog whos identity nobody even knows is being accused of being a Zuffa employee, and people are reporting this like they are completely certain. Again where is the proof of this accusation? I can’t tell you how many message boards or chat rooms are full of supposed people who work or have friends/connections that work in the UFC.
it’s called viral marketing / grassroots marketing, specifically refered to as ‘forum seeding’, and is the status quo for all businesses with online communities.
This isnt exactly breaking news. it has happened in the entertainment and gaming communities for a decade and is 110% the norm for PR firms.
enough with the outrage by the uninformed.
45 Huddle no it wouldn’t. Were ZUFFA to sell – the UFC name goes with them. Its no different than the owner on a sports team changing. And just as the Raiders would be better off without Al Davis… MMA would be better off without the Fertitta’s and Dana lining their pockets largely at the vast majority of fighters expense. Replaced with owner Marck Ecko and governing board Monte Cox/Scott Coker/Tom Atencio or Mark Cuban and president Guy Mezger.
Why hasnt the usualy perfunctory 45 posted yet?
Perhaps beign well versed in the Zuffa style of damage control he knows to stay as far away as possible not to blow his cover through any corroborative posts. Dana left him a message early this morning about the situation~ LoL.
Seriously though it’s probably just people like their receptionist doing some extracirricular activity but I wouldn’t doubt they have people hired specifically for the task, just like HBO recently hiring people to crack down on internet streaming.
Whomever they have “astroturfing”, if they even are, is probably someone from their marketing or business development department.
They probably have a job post specifically designed to seed their ideas, thoughts, slants, etc. out into the blogosphere in order to control or shape the line of thinking. It’s not new by any means and if this persons doing it and providing top level insight and analysis, it’s likely intentional.