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UFC 93 (1/17 Dublin, Ireland)
By Zach Arnold | January 17, 2009
Event reports: AOL Fanhouse | Sherdog | MMA Torch | MMA Junkie | Bloody Elbow | MMA on Tap
Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, UK, Zach Arnold | 100 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
**SPOILER**
‘The Irish Hand Grenade’ Marcus Davis vs. ‘Lights Out’ Chris Lytle
This was not the epic Fight of the Century that Davis was promising, but it was a decent slugfest. Lytle was advancing the whole fight, throwing overhand bombs, while Davis backpedaled and threw jabs, kicks to the body and some nice flying knees. Both kept their promise to keep it standing.
The crowd was hot, and it was an entertaining opener.
Marcus Davis wins by split decision.
***
Coleman – Rua: PATHETIC
Shogun should be dropped in the rankings despite winning this fight.
Pathetic performance and a continuation of the stunning fall-from-grace for a once fearsome fighter.
**SPOILER**
Mauricio ‘Shogun’ Rua vs. Mark ‘The Hammer’ Coleman
This looked like two Ken Shamrock’s slugging it out. Almost as if the fight was in slow-motion, Shogun was barely able to throw an effective strike, even though Coleman’s hands where by his waist for most of the fight.
In the third an exhausted Coleman took a sloppy but stiff 4-punch combo, capped by an uppercut, and went down.
Pathetic win for Shogun. The soft looking, lazy Rua is a shell of his former self. Gone is the lightning fast cardio machine that ripped through some of the best in the world in PRIDE.
Coleman should retire, and Rua should take a year off and train with a new strength and conditioning coach. If this is the best Shogun we’ll ever see post-surgeries, he’ll never crack the top 10 at Light-Heavyweight.
Shogun R3 TKO
*1/2
Coleman is the kind of fighter that you would bring in if you wanted to make Ken Shamrock look good.
Frankly, this fight did a lot to take the shine off of Forrest’s win over Rua. The concessions you give to Forrest are that he actually did beat Rua, and then turned around and beat Jackson.
Rua is finished. Even asking for Coleman was a craven move, and his inability to finish Coleman in the first round when he was clearly mentally and physically exhausted shows that he lacks any sort of killer instinct.
**SPOILER**
Rich ‘Ace’ Franklin vs. Dan ‘Hendo’ Henderson
R1 – an accidental headbutt cuts Franklin on the side of his head, and it looks like he was sliced by a blade. Gross.
R2 – Starts with Franklin controlling the stand up, but Hendo eventually gets a slow takedown. Rich gets full guard.
Some GNP from Hendo, but no damage is really happening. The typical ‘control’ from Hendo with very little excitement.
Franklin scrambles but can’t get up and the round ends.
Might be even at this point, and it feels like R3 will determine the fight. I called a Franklin decision, so we’ll see what happens.
R3 – Good stand-up exchange and Franklin stuffs a takedown. The crowd gets a little excited…and now Decision Dan is on top. Great.
I can feel a very boring end coming on.
Franklin escapes and is back up! Thank God!
Clinch against the cage, and Henderson is trying to stall again.
2:30 left and they’re standing. Hendo looks a little tired.
Hendo eats a jab, and another. Another clinch against the cage and Rich is controlling. Rich is trying to pour it on but Hendo is controlling his wrists. Fans are a little restless.
Dan slips but is back up.
DAMMIT! Rich Franklin takes a HUGE poke in the eye with just over a minute left…
…they’re waiting.
Ok, this was a disappointing card on a lot of levels, even based on the fact that it was a filler card between two huge events.
I feel like just curling up in a ball and sleeping this one off.
Only 37 seconds left, and Franklin’s eye looks red and battered from that poke. Ugh.
Nice stiff exchange to end it and we’ll see who wins. Franklin gets fouled with an eye poke AND gets busted open from the headbutt. Crappy night for Rich.
And the winner is…
Dammit. Decision Dan gets the split decision win, and it’s a terrible one. I do NOT want to see him coach TUF.
Dammit.
Dammit all to hell.
**
Overall a very bad event. This one will be an afterthought in 2009.
This event was definitely not worth $45, even though it did have some decent fights on it. I probably wouldn’t have even bought it if I wasn’t covering the sport.
The C-level-kickboxing-ization of MMA continues, as we had a fighter apologizing after a very impressive submission victory (Alan Belcher), and we once again had a C-level kickboxing match (or perhaps a B-level kickboxing match in this case) being glorified as being an epic fight. Lytle could have absolutely benefitted from taking the fight to the ground, given that he was losing in the stand-up, but of course he didn’t attempt to do so because that would have made him “a pussy.”
Also, what world was Mike Goldberg living in when he said that Chris Lytle is “one of the top fighters in the UFC”? He went into the fight with a 5-7 UFC record.
Shogun did not look impressive and clearly has a very long way to go with his cardio game after tearing his ACL prior to the Griffin fight, and then having two reconstructive knee surgeries and zero fights in the past 16 months. He should have been able to knock out Coleman sooner than he did. The stoppage was legit, however, and it could have even been stopped shortly before Coleman was knocked down, because he was taking brutal shots to the head and was no longer defending himself at all.
There were no robberies like Hamill’s domination of Bisping being called a split decision win for Bisping, but there are still some very curious judges’ decisions when the UFC runs these unsanctioned shows in the U.K.
The judge who gave Lytle the fight over Davis should have the prescription lens on his eyeglasses adjusted.
The judge who scored Henderson vs. Franklin as being 30-27 in favor of Franklin (I think it was Chris Watt) should not be allowed to judge on any UFC shows in the future. That was just ridiculous, and even Franklin thought so. Henderson dominated the first two rounds, and Franklin dominated the third round. How that ended up being 3 rounds to 0 in favor of Franklin on that judges’ scorecard is just mind-boggling.
Another side effect of booking too many PPV events: They ended up feeling the need to sacrifice Evans vs. Jackson (for which Evans would have been ready in April or May) and instead book Jackson vs. Jardine for March, due to the fact that they had no other main event that they could book for the March PPV.
That is a bit surprising (Jackson vs Jardine), but if they waited until April/May then there’s still a chance that Jackson will be in prison.
Until he finishes his community service and has his sentencing trial, his ability to fight in the middle of the year will be up in the air.
It’s not a result of booking too many PPV’s. It’s a result of doing 3 main events on one card, and then Chuck Liddell pulling out, and a bunch of bad timing.
Starting in May you’re looking at Mir/Lesnar, Hughes/Serra, Penn/Florian, GSP/Alves, Rampage/Rashad, the return of Couture, Anderson Silva will fight again, the likely return of Tito Ortiz in the summer…they gave in and let everyone who wanted to fight in December and now they’re paying the price for it.
They’re still doing 12 events a year. It’s not too much, they just need to be smarter with their talent spreading.
Jeremy— Quinton Jackson got a slap on the wrist even though he endangered numerous people’s lives. His sentencing is not until January 2010, and as a result of his plea bargain, he is very unlikely to get sentenced to any jail time unless he goes on another religion-fueled hunger strike and breaks more laws between now and January 2010.
What got the fight of the night? In my opinion, Palhares vs Horn should have…awesome technical display. Cool to see Horn put up a good showing after kind of mailing it in his last couple appearances. If Davis/Lytle wins over that, it will be kinda a bummer.
Of the fights on the scheduled televised card, Palhares vs Horn was the only one that didn’t disappoint me.
Not sure where all the hate is coming from. This was not a bad PPV. It wasn’t the best ever, but it was a solid 7 out of 10.
1. Lytle vs. Davis – Don’t like when fighters refuse to go to the ground, but it was entertaining. I actually had Lytle winning slightly in the first which would have given him the fight, but I didn’t think it was a bad decision.
2. Kang vs. Belcher – A nice come from behind win. Kang really isn’t very good to get caught like that.
3. Palhares vs. Horn – Boring fight. Best part was the announcers talking about Horn like he was a special needs student who was getting a gold star for adding 2+2.
4. Rua vs. Coleman – Horrible performances by both, but an actually very fun fight to watch. I agree that Rua should not be ranked until proven otherwise. Not upset with the stoppage. Rua would have won the fight either way.
5. Franklin vs. Henderson – NEEDED TO BE 5 ROUNDS. I thought the 30-27 judge should never judge again.
Overall, not a bad show. Like i said before, not sure what all the hate was about.
Palhares vs. Horn wasn’t really Fight of the Night material, either. Horn has looked very bad and uninspired in all of his recent fights. In this fight, Palhares completely dominated him for two rounds, and the only reason Palhares didn’t dominate him in the third round as well is because Palhares gassed out again.
Ivan,
You never shock me with your hate of everything Zuffa.
1. This is not C-Level Kickboxing. If the recent K-1 Event showed, MMA fighters striking skills are much higher then some haters would like people to think.
2. There was nothing wrong with the Lytle/Davis decision. By round, it was a close fight. Davis outstruck him in the first, but Lytle had the more power shots.
3. There was no bad booking on this card. There is no oversaturating of PPV’s. If there was, these shows wouldn’t be getting 200,000 Buys, and shows like UFC 91 & UFC 92 wouldn’t be getting over 750,000 buys.
Ivan, I agree it was a slap on the wrist though. Given his mental condition though, I wouldn’t give him jail time. Being locked up in jail would do nothing to improve Rampage’s mental health. Rampage at the very least should have been committed to a psychiatric facility long-term though. That way he could be kept away from endangering society and also have an opportunity for rehabilitation. I generally slant more towards rehabilitation rather than punishment when it comes to cases of mental illness (except for psychopaths but they have a personality disorder. That’s a different situation.)
Also, I really hope that it’s not true that the winner of Bisping vs. Henderson is going to get a title shot in their next fight ahead of Yushin Okami and Demian Maia.
Dave2— I don’t disagree with that. Being committed to a psychiatric facility long-term would have been more beneficial to Jackson while still not leaving innocent members of society at risk whenever he goes on his next (and at least third) religion-fueled hunger strike.
45Huddle— Didn’t you say prior to UFC 93 that you didn’t think UFC 93 should be a PPV event? I agreed with you at the time.
I could have, I don’t remember. Either way, I thought it was an enjoyable event to watch.
Affliction trying to run an event in January is likely the reason it is on PPV. So much for competition being good for the fans….
Are the Pride diehards finally willing to admit that the organization had a LOT of talent that translates horribly in the drug tested fight world?
My expectation before the show is that this was not a card that deserved much interest for pay-TV. It lived up to that expectation.
45 gave it high marks? I am shocked.
The show was mediocre and will be historically noted for the subpar performances put in by many of the participants. Shogun looked awful in winning, and Coleman far worse. Coleman is 50/50 on beating Soa Palalei right now. Lytle/Davis came nowhere near matched the undue hype for it. Palhares had Horn in a billion bad positions and could never finish him. Henderson/Franklin almost ended on a sour note and god only knows what that one judge was thinking to make it 30-27 Franklin, but to its credit it was definitely IMO the best fight of the night. One thing that was very clear was that Egan belonged nowhere near the UFC cage. He looked atrocious.
The big news is definitely Jardine/Rampage though. That’s a gutsy fight to make stylistically, given Jardine’s excellent leg kicks and history against counter punchers.
As for the UFC being “forced into a corner”, no one is making them run that show. They chose to run a PPV from Ohio that week of their own volition far, far in advance. They could easily have cancelled it a couple weeks ago when they had no main event, but they don’t want to lose face. In that, we get a very interesting light heavyweight fight.
Stop bringing up the performance enhancing drugs Huddle. I can go down the list of PRIDE failures and explain why they faired poorly. No roids explanation required.
Shogun just had a torn ACL and two knee surgeries. After that, your cardio is going to suffer.
After Cro Cop destroyed Wand’s chin, Wand has been finished. No chin and poor striking defense = KO prone
Cro Cop fought like crap in Japan too recently. Unless you really think that ‘Old Cro Cop’ came alive against Choi and that random can in DREAM 1.
Big Nog has taken way too many beatings in his career and now he’s washed up.
Now Paulo Filho, you may have an argument. He’s a recovering pain killer addict and he was likely jacked up on pain killers in PRIDE. He’s also suffering from depression these days.
We didn’t see much of Sokoudjou in PRIDE like we saw him in UFC. He was probably a Flash KO fluke.
Denis Kang was stinking it up in Japan post-PRIDE before he arrived in the UFC.
Marcus Aurelio’s win against Gomi doesn’t count. Gomi’s head has been out of it for awhile.
Fabricio Werdum losing to Arlovski was not an upset. Werdum had one bad fight versus Dos Santos because he wasn’t in shape for whatever reason. And it wasn’t lack of roids that led to that. Probably he was rehabbing an injury or he didn’t train hard enough.
Who else am I missing? I’ve pretty much covered the PRIDE flops in the UFC. Henderson is not a flop in my book. Rampage Jackson and Anderson Silva are very game opponents. And he beat Franklin, who was champ before Silva.
Wow 45, you must be in a helluva good mood today!
7/10, REALLY?
Usually you & I are more like-minded than this, but that’s cool. To each their own. This time around, I’m much more inclined to agree with Ivan though.
I wouldn’t call the card an atrocity, but IMO mediocre might be stretching it as a description.
While the opener was an all right fight, it was obvious that both men went into it over-thinking about how to make the fight an “instant classic”, rather than simply giving the contest 110% & just allowing it to happen.
They put too much pressure on themselves to produce & as a result the fight had little to no “flow” to it.
Kang/Belcher was decent, but after all the build up over Kang the ending was more of a “WTF!” moment rather than a “Wow!” moment.
Rua-Coleman II WAS pretty close to an atrocity IMO. What an ugly, pathetic affair it was.
Coleman looked stiff-legged & wobbly just taking his bloody shoes off before ever climbing into the octagon for Pete’s sake & that he was able to nearly extend Rua the full distance while fighting in such an obviously badly aged, depleted state is a rather sad commentary on just how shopworn & faded “Shogun” is.
Coleman looked like a gargoyle after the fight & was nearly incoherant during his post-fight talk with Rogan. He should never fight again.
Rua?
Joe Silva should immediately resign him to face Liddell as it would likely give Chuck a nice win over a name opponent without exposing him to too much risk.
Honestly?
I think both “Shogun” & “The Hammer” are clear examples of what little remains of fighters when they have to compete clean after years of relying on chemical aide.
The main event?
It was OK I suppose, but had little to no drama to it. Just a good workman-like effort by both men.
All in all, I give the show about a 4.5/10 at best.
I hate to pile on, 45, but yeah, this is looking like you’re mainlining kool aid from here.
Yikes, sorry for enjoying an event. I will make sure I won’t do that again. I’m sure some of my enjoyment had to do with my low expectations of the card to start off the show. I was presently surprised by some of the fights.
I’m not saying Shogun/Coleman 2 had lots of great technique. But it was back and forth and had plenty of drama to it. That made it enjoyable.
I read a good number of hardcore fans didn’t like UFC 92 because they were sad to see the way Nogueira & Silva got beaten. I think some of that happened during UFC 93 as well. Kang tapped. Rua looked horrible. Henderson, dare I say, didn’t kill Franklin and they looked to be on the same level. This just hurts the Pride Fanboys ego’s that much more. Like a nice little aftershock.
This PPV had a solid stand-up battle, a come from behind win, a back and forth fight between two top tier fighters, and one sloppy fight between an old man and a former kingpin. I’ve seen boring and bad events. This was not one of them.
As for the Pride drug environment… It takes a lot to try and convince yourself that this isn’t the major factor for the downward spiral for so many of these fighters.
lol at 45 Huddle constantly turning threads into tired old UFC vs. Pride debates
and lol at 45 Huddle pretending that any fighter who wants to cheat and who isn’t stupid can’t beat a drug test with the cocktail of HGH, testosterone, and insulin (which doesn’t cause any banned steroids to show up in the drug test, and which fools the T/E ratios)
Also, in response to, “Affliction trying to run an event in January is likely the reason it is on PPV. So much for competition being good for the fans…”
That is some great logic. So the UFC’s predatory business tactics, and as you put it yourself, scheduling a PPV specifically to financially harm a competitor, is somehow held up as evidence that competition is not good for the fans.
Davis vs. Lytle may have been B-level kickboxing instead of C-level kickboxing, but it was a lot closer to C-level than A-level. The K-1 fighters losing on New’s Year Eve doesn’t have any relevance to Davis and Lytle because they are not top-level MMA fighters like Mousasi, Kawajiri, and Overeem, two of whom were going against fairly washed-up kickboxers on New Year’s Eve.
Also, lol at the UFC giving “Co-Fight of the Night” to Shogun vs. Coleman. First Browning vs. Kaplan, now Shogun vs. Coleman. I realize that they probably felt Davis and Lytle “had” to be rewarded for their “takedowns are for pussies” mentality, but Shogun vs. Coleman winning Co-Fight of the Night? That makes no sense at all.
I just don’t understand you people. All people did was complain about UFC 93 before the event. They STILL ORDERED IT… And then, they complain about it afterwards. That just isn’t normal behavor. Yes Ivan, that includes you.
This isn’t a tired old debate. I literally read people complaining about their Pride Heroes getting beat less then a month ago. It’s still out there.
I’m sure some people get through the drug testing system…. but come on. When one organization doesn’t even attempt it, and all their fighters look faster, stronger, and more ripped…. You don’t need to be a doctor or a scholar to know something is amiss. Especially when they come to drug testing zones and everything is different…. from their performances to the athletic abilities.
“That is some great logic. So the UFC’s predatory business tactics, and as you put it yourself, scheduling a PPV specifically to financially harm a competitor, is somehow held up as evidence that competition is not good for the fans.”
It’s one of the reasons, yes. Not the only reason. When fight fans can spend $135 in 2 weeks on fight cards, that is not a good thing for the customer.
Lastly, your C-Level Kickboxing topic is the REAL issue getting old here. K-1 level fighters have never shown to be heads and shoulders over their opponents throughout MMA. Not Schilt. Not Cro Cop. Not Hunt. Nobody. It’s only hating on MMA to think that somehow their striking levels are so far beneath everything else. It’s a different sport. Different gloves. Less tolerance for big strikes. Have to guard against takedowns. Enough of this C-Level garbage. It’s pure fantasy.
K-1 level fighters have never shown to be heads and shoulders over their opponents throughout MMA. Not Schilt. Not Cro Cop. Not Hunt. Nobody.
I don’t think Schilt’s problem in MMA was that he was getting outstruck.
I’m not saying that ALL of the kickboxing in MMA is C-level kickboxing. But I am saying that Davis vs. Lytle in particular is B-level kickboxing, as are most fights involving Davis and Lytle.
I am also saying that if Davis or Lytle want to compete in a sport with no takedowns, they might want to take up professional kickboxing and leave MMA behind for all of those “pussies,” who do things like, you know, actually go for takedowns when it would clearly be beneficial to their chances of winning the fight.
Then give me some examples of K-1 Fighters who transitioned to MMA where I could say: “Wow, they are on a different level of striking then the current talent.”
Perhaps fights 5 years ago, but not today. This C-Level Kickboxing thing is purely just hate for the sake of hate.
Also, when I laughed at your attempt to turn yet another thread into a UFC vs. Pride debate, the specific thing that I was laughing about was how you’ll often bring up the issue and try to make the discussion about “UFC vs. Pride” when nobody in the thread was even talking about that. It wasn’t the first time you’ve done that, and I’m sure it won’t be the last. It would be like a diehard WWE fan constantly bringing up “WWE vs. WCW” debates in 2003.
Davis and Lytle have extensive pro boxing records, though neither ever fought anyone approaching decent competition. Davis made the transition to MMA when he got wrecked by a nobody. Lytle gave up boxing because he was making more money in MMA.
Besides, neither man went to the ground because the bonus for FOTN was almost assuredly bigger than it would have been for them to win.
I am going to say this one more time and no more than that: I am not talking about all MMA fighters. I am talking about specifically about fighters like Davis and Lytle who would rather have a sloppy kickboxing match that is allegedly a “Fight of the Year” candidate than actually use all of their MMA skills, and try to win fights by “being a pussy” and actually going for takedowns if they’re beneficial to their chances of winning.
I’m not the only one who brings it up, but I will enter the debates if it is brought up.
And despite it being a while ago, this was only Shogun’s SECOND fight since his Pride days. So it definitely brings up the discussion again.
Still waiting on K-1 Examples of where these fictional K-1 fighters are so much better at striking then MMA fighters under MMA rules.
“Besides, neither man went to the ground because the bonus for FOTN was almost assuredly bigger than it would have been for them to win.”
Exactly, and yet the majority of people will say with a straight face and will really believe that the UFC doesn’t encourage one kind of fighting over another.
Still waiting on K-1 Examples of where these fictional K-1 fighters are so much better at striking then MMA fighters under MMA rules.
I thought the MMA fighters were just as good, ergo they beat K-1 fighters under K-1 rules? I mean, Schilt lost a bunch in MMA, but he also couldn’t defend a takedown if his life depended on it.
“I am going to say this one more time and no more than that: I am not talking about all MMA fighters. I am talking about specifically about fighters like Davis and Lytle who would rather have a sloppy kickboxing match that is allegedly a “Fight of the Year” candidate than actually use all of their MMA skills, and try to win fights by “being a pussy” and actually going for takedowns if they’re beneficial to their chances of winning.”
Who said it was FOTY? I wasn’t saying it. Didn’t read of anybody else saying it. This isn’t sloppy kickboxing. This is what kickboxing looks like under MMA rules.
And the reason why I keep on asking for who these K-1 Fighter examples are… Is because there aren’t any who are leaps above the current talent level. And if there is nobody with K-1 Level striking that looks so much better then MMA fighters, then this whole C-Level kickboxing debate is ended. Davis & Lytle are obviously solid strikers in MMA. It might not translate to a K-1 Ring, but they wouldn’t get wrecked on their feet by K-1 fighters in an MMA fight.
“Then give me some examples of K-1 Fighters who transitioned to MMA where I could say: “Wow, they are on a different level of striking then the current talent.””
I don’t know if it will make YOU go “wow”, but what about Melvin Manhoef? He is probably the best striker out there pound-for-pound. I think all of his MMA losses were because his grappling game is weak. How is CroCop NOT an example? Maybe not anymore, but a few years ago he was an amazing striker. He’s still pretty good. What about Cung Le? Maybe he isn’t the hardest striker (that goes to Manhoef) but his technical skills when it comes to striking are great. Gegard Mousasi? Yes, he was a kickboxer, a main reason why he was able to beat Musashi (who is WAY past his prime). Obviously not all of these guys are/were K-1 fighters.
And the whole “MMA fighters being C-level kickboxers” argument is NOT a fantasy. It is true to an extent. Again, it isn’t really an issue of stance changes so much as many of these guys are winging wild haymakers that make them look like Toughman competitors. And many decent Jui-jitsu, Judo, Sambo, etc. guys who are afraid of making “boring” fights so they have stand up wars, fighting in an area that they are not very good in or at least less experienced. Frank Shamrock is a pretty good example of this. It’s the reason why he had a stand-up war (an excellent one at that) with Cung Le, and lost. But put up an excellent effort though. Frank Shamrock has said in interviews that stand-up striking is the future of the sport of MMA. What other proof do you need?
And the reason why I keep on asking for who these K-1 Fighter examples are… Is because there aren’t any who are leaps above the current talent level.
Overeem beat a guy who, while good, wasn’t the best kickboxer in the world and did so in a one off. No one has any idea how well he’d do fighting a full year campaign with K-1. Don’t even start with the K-1 Max guys. Ain’t nobody in MMA beating Buakaw in a heads-up kickboxing match without being allowed a lead pipe in the ring.
Can anyone detect the overall theme that the UFC is pushing through its surrogates following UFC 93? (and I’m not referring to 45 Huddle in this case) Bonus points to whoever correctly identifies it first, although it hasn’t been too subtle, lol.
Manhoef has never KO’d a Top 20 Fighter in MMA.
Cro Cop’s best MMA KO came against Little Fedor. He even got outstruck by Kongo & Gonzaga.
Cung Le? Are you serious? Who has this guy even beaten?
Mousasi… His biggest win is Denis Kang, and we all know Kang isn’t Top Tier like many tried to make him out. Mousasi really hasn’t beaten a Top 10 guy yet.
I’m just not seeing this magical striking. I don’t watch these guys you even talk about and say: “Wow, that is much better”. Because it really isn’t.
Haymakers might not work with gloves… But they are effective in MMA. I know that hurts for boxing purists to hear and see. But it’s true. It’s the nature of the sport. So this haymaker arguement is garbage.
Double posting I know, but 45’s creating a nice out for himself. Of course most of the kickboxers that have come from K-1 to MMA haven’t necessarily blown away everyone: They left K-1 because they couldn’t ascend to the top. Mirko was the closest thing to a prime top K-1 kickboxer that entered MMA, and he was a top 5 MMA heavyweight for a pretty solid 4 year stretch. Hunt was never outstruck in MMA except by, get this, a kickboxer with K-1 experience.
Haymakers might not work with gloves… But they are effective in MMA. I know that hurts for boxing purists to hear and see. But it’s true. It’s the nature of the sport. So this haymaker arguement is garbage.
Did you see actually see Kongo/Cro-Cop? You want to explain how your point of “haymakers being more effective” works in the context of a guy using his physical size to keep distance with kicks and jabs?
If you don’t think “C-Level kickboxing” is an apt description of Lytle/Davis then you simply don’t watch much kickboxing. It’s mostly because of the (pretty funny) technique Lytle puts on display, which is honestly C-Level even for MMA.
And if you’re nitpicking whether it’s B or C level on some fantasy letter based scale of fighter aptitude rating then you’re missing the point. It was a kickboxing match (it was) without the technical flair you expect from a real kickboxing match (like being coordinated enough to bend your elbows when you punch)
So because a fighter couldn’t make it in K-1, he loses the “K-1 Level” status? That kind of sounds like what you are saying. Mirko, Hunt, Manhoef, Schilt, and others…. They are K-1 Level. And forget about the ground game…. I’ve never seen these guys strike on their feet in a way that non K-1 Level guys have. That makes this “K-1 Level” nonsense a myth.
That’s one fight with Kongo & Crop Cop. Look at Silva vs. Jardine. Look at Liddell’s success before he got old. Look at Rashad Evans. Gonzaga is just a wild striker. Wild strikes, and they hurt people. I’m not saying technique is pointless. It absolutely is a great thing. But heymakers is a LEGIT weapon in MMA. It isn’t in K-1. It isn’t in boxing. The lack of gloves makes it one of many options in the striking game of MMA.
So when a fighter throws some haymakers in MMA, people automatically call it “C-Level Kickboxing”. It’s not. It’s just a tool that works in MMA, that doesn’t work in K-1.
“Cung Le? Are you serious? Who has this guy even beaten?”
Really? FRANK FUCKING SHAMROCK! He is probably of the top ten greatest MMA fighters in history. He’s not a top ten guy anymore, but it would be hard to name more than a few guys who were consistently better over a long period of time than Shamrock. And he beat okay-ish guys like Tony Fryklund and Jason Von Flue.
“Manhoef has never KO’d a Top 20 Fighter in MMA.”
Flattening Bernard Ackah (another hard hitting, but limited, fighter), Sakuraba, and Mark Hunt (especially Hunt considering that his head and chin are like steel) is not too shabby. Okay, Saku was still way past his prime when Manhoef got to him, but still. Ackah isn’t top 20, but you can argue that Mark Hunt is/was at the lower end of top twenty.
So because a fighter couldn’t make it in K-1, he loses the “K-1 Level” status?
If a fighter can’t make it in the UFC, should he lose “UFC Level” status?
And forget about the ground game…. I’ve never seen these guys strike on their feet in a way that non K-1 Level guys have. That makes this “K-1 Level” nonsense a myth.
Who out struck Semmy Schilt? What hardened “MMA Fighter” outstruck Mark Hunt?
That’s one fight with Kongo & Crop Cop. Look at Silva vs. Jardine.
Wait, what? I thought we were talking about K-1 fighters. No one is KOing the few decent kickboxers that enter MMA with looping hooks. The people that beat them either do it utilizing grappling to outright win or set up strikes or they are kickboxers themselves. Wanderlei Silva fought Mirko Cro-Cop twice, and the second time around he almost had his head taken off.
The same Wanderlei Silva that was KO’d by “Haymaker Henderon” you mean? So Cro Cop’s big striking claim to fame is over a fighter a weight class below him? Way to go K-1 Level Fighters!!!
Chuck,
I hope you are not serious about Frank Shamrock. At the time of that fight, he wasn’t even a Top 20 fighter.
Hunt was not Top 20 at the time of the fight. In fact, he didn’t even have a win in the sport since 2006.
D.Capitated,
Did I say people were outstriking Schilt? No. I said his striking wasn’t on another level. Neither was Hunt’s. In fact, while checking his record, Hunt has only KO’d 2 fighters in his 10 fights. That’s some real striking skills!!!