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What we’re reading right now
By Zach Arnold | October 14, 2008
If you notice that the site is a little ‘buggy’ today, it’s because we’re updating the software on our end to be able to process everything as smoothly as possible.
- Sherdog: MMA, boxing take hits in Las Vegas
- Las Vegas Business Press: Private concerns (lots of interesting details about the Fertittas and how business is in Las Vegas)
- The LA Times: Dana White on ‘rampage’ about Elite XC scandal (here’s why it might be a good idea for him to file an official complaint)
- The BBC: Michael Bisping – the British fight game’s next big thing?
- Setanta Sports (UK): Will Michael Bisping ever be champion?
- Dave Meltzer (Yahoo Sports): Can Fedor-Arlovski put Affliction back on track?
- Gryphon: Rumors persist that Softbank will not sponsor K-1’s Dynamite show on TBS for NYE
- AOL Fanhouse: Trump, Fedor, Affliction team up for ‘Fighting Fedor’ reality show (isn’t this the HDNet show involving Jerry Millen?)
- Hall of Fame Network: The Ten Greatest Fights in UFC History
A quick media-related note — ESPN has now snagged the services of Neil Davidson, who is an excellent MMA writer for The Canadian Press. Neil has two articles up on ESPN now: Paul Kelly keen on restoring British pride against Marcus Davis and Chris Leben leaving his past behind.
Topics: Affliction, Media, MMA, Pro Elite, UFC, UK, Zach Arnold | 45 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
To the commenters who essentially called me a liar when I refuted a MultiChannel News report that Zuffa’s own management came up with the idea that saved the company (The Ultimate Fighter), here you go… this is from the Wrestling Observer Newsletter, which has reported the same thing in the past:
“The story credited Dana White with coming up with the concept of the Ultimate Fighter reality show, which saved the company in 2005 after the Fertittas had lost $44 million in their first four years as owners. I don’t know that White came up with that idea as much as his idea of doing a weekly Tuesday Night Fights show was turned down by everyone on television. A reality show was suggested from the outside.”
I thought it was well known by now that the Fertitta’s came up with TUF.
http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/07/magazines/business2/stationcasinos.biz2/index.htm?postversion=2006110809
“Having allowed the Discovery Channel to shoot the reality show American Casino at Green Valley, the brothers decided that a series where a bunch of UFC fighters live together and face weekly elimination in the ring was their Trojan horse for getting on television. Their pitch was turned down by every network. So they made Spike TV, the only channel specifically designed for overly testosteroned young men, an offer it couldn’t refuse: The Fertittas agreed to produce the $10 million show themselves; Spike could just air it with no production costs.”
IceMuncher, I’m surprised you haven’t figured out by now that Ivan never let facts get in the way of an anti-UFC tirade.
Ivan…its been well known for a long time that the Fertitta’s came up with tuf after a short bio was run on them, but nice try.
BLAF interview where he says he didn’t like the TUF idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E43z-ywg3KQ
Yes, I thought we settled this allegation on FightOpinion last year!
It was reported all along in the Wrestling Observer that the idea for TUF came from outside Zuffa. It had been a while since the subject came up, causing many people to forget what had been reported, but then it was just reported again in the Wrestling Observer that the idea came from outside Zuffa.
IVAN. why is that so important to you?
Are we supposed to give a vague, unsupported statement made by the Wrestling Observer more credibility than all the sources that have specifically stated the Fertittas came up with the idea based on their earlier experience with American Casino?
If the idea came from someone else, wouldn’t that person be suing Zuffa by now?
Probably because people are questioning his integrity on it, b.d.w. If someone called me a liar when I reported on things I heard from reliable sources and am still hearing, I’d likely be upset as well as anyone else.
Whether or not you agree that Dana or anyone at Zuffa came up with the idea, you have to at least question the conflicting reports when the company president himself has given contradicting interviews on it.
I do think it’s rather irrelevant if they did or did not initially dream up the idea though, as they did execute the concept very effectively with Spike and that’s really what matters in the end and all you can ask for from them.
Hardly matters except as semantics.
Dana got what he want in terms of a weekly archived fights show and live events, Spike got what they wanted in terms of a reality show that blew out of the gate (even if ratings have tapered off now).
“From the outside” is also a pretty poorly defined statement, it could mean anything from outside of those doing the negotiations but inside Zuffa/UFC to someone who was a completely outside party (not from Zuffa, not from Spike). It’s certainly not specific enough that anyone could be called on it for being wrong saying it unless it turned out that Dana White originally had the idea (which all signs point to no on).
BDW— Because I was essentially called a liar and a fraud by commenters on this forum, so I wanted to set the record straight. And yes, the Wrestling Obsever has a lot more credibility than the very same mainstream media outlets who, in previous articles, repeated the Zuffa Myth that they created or added most of the sport’s current rules.
So Ivan…you calling the Fertitta’s liars? Be clear.
If they told CNN Money that they came up with the idea of The Ultimate Fighter themselves, then yes, that would be a lie. It would hardly be the first time, either. Remember, both Lorenzo Fertitta and Dana White were the ones out there spreading the Zuffa Myth to any mainstream media outlet that would print it.
Wow. You are still defending your position?
Ivan, who the hell created TUF? Obviously, CNN, which reprinted that report from Forbes magazine is wrong. You seem to have insider knowledge that contradicts White and the Fertittas?
I wouldn’t call it “insider knowledge.” I would call it “reading interviews that came out out at the time” and “reading the Wrestling Observer,” both at the time and last week. You’re free to believe what you want.
(accidentally made this a separate post)
As you know if you read interviews with Zuffa at the time, or if you read the Wrestling Observer at the time, it was Spike TV who came up with the idea, not anyone at Zuffa.
The Zuffa myth has actual evidence you can raise against it. You can tell me who was really responsible, when it occurred, and where it occurred. The TUF myth on the other hand has no actual collaborating evidence to support its claims.
The Fertitta story is logical, lacks any contrary evidence, and sufficiently explains where they got the idea and how they implemented it. If you wish to argue against their side of the story, you’re going to need better evidence than an unsubstantiated statement made by the WO.
Do you have any sources you can link? Also, why would Spike make the UFC pay for it’s own production if the show was Spike’s idea? It doesn’t follow.
“it was Spike TV who came up with the idea, not anyone at Zuffa.”
Then why did Zuffa finance it themselves for 10 million? You’re telling me Spike came up with the idea then made Zuffa pay for it?
Or is that another lies?
who cares who came up with the idea. does it really matter this much for 20+ posts on the topic? must be a slow news day.
The most important news story of the week is NBC running Strikeforce Cards in 2009.
It feels like the Networks are jumping on the MMA fad. I question how long it will last. Once ratings are down, they will dump both EliteXC & Strikeforce quickly.
Ivan accuses the Fertitta and White of lying. He also accuses CNN and Forbes magazine of not vetting their sources and spreading lies and myths. That is pertinent to the discussion.
Why is it that, on the Internet, a person who feels like the topic at hand is not important to him, nevertheless chimes in to tell everyone else that their opinions is clogging up a thread which would have been dead?
The majority of Internet discussions revolve around the most random and inconsequential topics possible. If people were not bored at work, they would not be arguing about said topics.
What’s next, a Pride VS UFC debate?
In any case, I do find the article from the LV Business Press a pretty interesting read. It basically says that Lorenzo Fertitta just so happened to step down from Station Casinos at the same time that the debt ridden company (now 75% owned by a private capital firm) he owned/operated began to see appreciable drops in its gambling income. I’m sure it was really all about bringing his superman sized muscles to help get international shows off the ground, heh.
Spike TV wasn’t about to finance the production of a risky reality show that could very well bomb. At the time, Spike TV and Albie Hecht were the only ones on national cable TV willing to touch the UFC with a ten-foot pole. They calculated, correctly, that Zuffa would agree to pay for the production of Season 1 due to their desperation. They were right: For Zuffa, it was either that or go out of business. As it turned out, the first season was a hit and it saved the company.
As for the issue of who you’re going to believe, the Wrestling Observer or the same people (Lorenzo Fertitta, Dana White) who also told countless mainstream media outlets that they added most of the UFC’s current rules, the answer to that question is really just a reflection of how much you know about the industry. I certainly can’t force you to believe one side or the other. Again, believe what you want.
1 look at your site shows your anti UFC agenda Ivan…back it up because you are clearly biased.
Yeah, I’ve got such an anti-UFC bias that I’ve been ripping EliteXC as loudly as anyone I know of regarding StandGate.
In all seriousness, please let me know of anything on my site that is not true. In general, I rip anyone who deserves to be ripped, whether it’s Zuffa and its often hypocritical ways, the IFL with its executives whose comments have shown that they have no business being anywhere near the MMA industry (Jay Larkin), EliteXC with their shameful promotion of Kevin Ferguson and the scandal of StandGate, or anyone else who deserves to be ripped. I’m not going to hold back based on whether it’s the UFC or not.
I really don’t want to get too much into a pissing match because I do actually enjoy your work and I am NOT calling you a liar.
I would just like some more proof to back up Zuffa was lying because you also need to call out Randy and Chuck since if you read their books they credit Zuffa as well. Don’t forget they were there.
Randy and Chuck were just told, “There’s a reality series that we want you to be the coaches on.”
IVAN. im a little late in my response, but point taken. ive heard both sides to the story, one where dana wanted to do a reality series based on himself and spike came up with the tuf idea and the forbes version where the fertittas came up with the idea. its not as important to me, because regardles of who came up withe the exact idea for tuf, dana and the fertittas have done so much for the advancement of mma, with their determination and love for the sport (i know at one point they were going to sell, but stuck to their beliefs that mma would take off))that EVEN without tuf, i think they would have succeded one way or another in the ufc becoming the single best mma org. in the world. it would have just taken them a little longer. good things happen to good people.
Why all the hate on Ivan? Do any of you know what the Wrestling Observer is, or who Dave Meltzer is, how closely he follows the business and his close ties to people inside of it?
Unfortunately the WO just came online few months ago and they do not have archives of recent years available, but as someone who has read it religiously I can corroborate Ivan’s claim that Dave had reported all along and on several occasions since all the goings on in negotiations for the UFC show that became TUF.
This is hardly about pro-UFC or anti-UFC. People have asked Ivan to back up his statements with fact, and admittedly it is difficult to do now. But these same people so readily accept the “investigative” reporting of these news sources that tout the Fertittas and White as the originators of TUF when in fact the Fertittas and White are the sources? That’s like the New York Times printing a story taking me at my word that I came up with TUF. It’s worse considering that the Zuffa myth has already (or should have already) strained their credulity on such matters. The fact that the Zuffa Myth has easily discovered evidence against it works against any attack on Ivan here – if mainstream media vetted their sources on these types of stories properly shouldn’t there be far less repetition of a clearly erroneous story?
Talk about an anti-Zuffa bias, it seems like so many of you have an anti-Trembow bias…
“Talk about an anti-Zuffa bias, it seems like so many of you have an anti-Trembow bias…”
like I said..I just want to see proof. Why dig up this old news without proof?
Ivan started the comments on this thread thumping his chest. Lets not forget that.
And why is it such a big deal to ask a journalist to back it up?
The problem is that the Zuffa myth has been exposed with information readily found on the Internet.
Ivan’s quest to counter this so called myth has no basis in fact. He’s using his words against Zuffa’s; his words against CNN, Forbes, Fortune, and a dozen other widely respected magazines. He has no proof other than Meltzer’s short blurb that could be construed any way you want. Other? That could very well mean that it was the Ferttita’s idea and not White’s.
Furthermore, his premise fails the logic test. 1st, if it was Spike’s idea, then the information would have been refuted already. TUF came out during the age of the Internet. Why would there not be any mention of this fact? Is there a large conspiracy to hide that fact? Is Zuffa killing everyone who have knowledge of this fact? Hundreds of people are responsible for TUF, so why are there no loose lips?
And the way business works, when you come up with an idea, you either sell the idea or you share creator credits. You don’t just GIVE your idea away.
Why is it so hard to believe that the Fertittas got this idea themselves? It came about from their previous work with the casino reality show; the one that Forbes magazine mentioned as the catalyst for TUF. It’s pure logic. Occam’s Razor states that the simplest explanation tends to be the correct one. Why conjure up a conspiracy theory for this?
Just because Ivan criticizes EliteXC does not makes him immune to bias against the UFC. That’s a fallacy. The are not mutually exclusive.
Lastly, Ivan once claimed that the Fertittas colluded with the Nevada boxing commission to drive out the original owners in order to buy it at a cheap price. This was proven to be false here on FightOpinion a while back. So this is NOT the first time that Ivan has tried to tear down Zuffa’s credibility.
Now, Ivan may not be biased and may be merely a misguided individual. However, his track record speaks otherwise. The exposure of the Zuffa myth has emboldened him to see conspiracy theories where non exist.
I hope this point doesn’t get lost in all the arguing. Can we please stop putting “Gate” after some other word to describe every scandal that comes up? “StandGate” is perhaps the stupidest name for anything ever. Watergate where this all comes from was the name of the building that was broken into. The word gate has nothing in it to suggest scandal, strife, etc.
Well cyph, I think you totally misrepresent things.
1. Ivan’s opinion is backed by a preeminent MMA journalist who has broken many major stories and like I said has many contacts in the industry and followed the situation closely when there wasn’t a lot of journalistic work in MMA being done.
2. Now is it Ivan’s word v Zuffa or Ivan v mainstream media? You seem to be saying it’s both. Really it’s Ivan v Zuffa by proxy of mainstream media. If it’s Ivan’s word backed up by a major journalistic source v Zuffa’s discredited word for PR purposes, I think most minds for fairness would see it the first way.
3. I’d appreciate you letting us know how else Dave Meltzer’s blurb could be construed, unless you’re saying the “outside” Dave referred to was the outside of White’s epidermis, which really doesn’t seem to fly.
4. I took logic classes and you don’t make anything close to a “logic test”. You’re actually making some crazy leaps of reasoning. And for the record, $10 million is a helluva price to sell an idea for.
5. Most of all [quote]Why is it so hard to believe that the Fertittas got this idea themselves?[/quote] Well, it’s not, it’s just that I know they didn’t.
Ok, I just watched the credit sequence from the recently released TUF 7 series.
The first executive producer is Craig Piligian, and chances are damn good that he’s the one who came up with the concept since he’s the first one named.
The second page of EPs is Frank, Lorenzo, and Dana, the third page is Andrea Richter and Ralph Wikke.
Piligian was an EP on American Casino. Richter and Wikke were also producers on American Casino.
I think that based on the credits, the story that the Fertittas took to the idea based on their experience with American Casino bears a lot of weight. If someone else was creatively involved in this project, they would be an EP on it at the very least, because a show doesn’t run for eight seasons without someone noticing and getting lawsuit happy.
chief,
You failed the logic test. $10 mil is the cost to produce the show. You failed the second test my assuming Meltzer said anything to contradict Zuffa. You failed the third test by using Meltzer’s blurb as journalistic vetting with sources. Meltzer says alot of things with his grapevine pipeline with no sources to back him up. He’s been wrong before many times with his blurbs. He often corrects himself later. However, if you use a blurb without context, and use it as a journalistic source, use Meltzer as a source when he himself has no source, then you just failed the last logic test.
Good job sleuthing, Jeremy.
The credits says it all. I don’t even know why we’re still arguing about this.
So……….still no proof Mr. Ivan?
This is going to be my last post in this thread, as it’s clear that there are some people (I’m not saying all of you, but clearly some of you) who think that the Fertittas are untouchable, unquestionable figures who have never told a lie. Anything who thinks that Dave Meltzer’s reporting on this subject at the time (and Zuffa’s own interviews at the time) have less credibility than those mainstream media outlets with their “journalistic vetting with sources” is exposing their lack of knowledge of what’s a credible source for insider MMA information and what’s not a credible source for insider MMA information. Many of those mainstream media outlets were the same ones who printed and re-printed the Zuffa Myth about Zuffa adding most of the rules. Yeah, they really have great “journalistic vetting with sources” when it comes to writing articles about the MMA industry.
The placement of people’s names as executive producers on TV shows or movies often doesn’t have anything with who had the most to do with the TV show or movie. Heck, Vince McMahon was billed as one of the top executive producers of The Rock’s first several movies even though he had absolutely nothing to do with any of those movies other than giving The Rock permission to take a few months from his WWE schedule. Frank Fertitta is listed as one of the top executive producers of every single UFC event even though has very little involvement in running the company from day to day. There are countless examples in movies and TV that don’t have an MMA or pro wrestling tie-in that point to the same thing: The placement of people’s names of executive producer is not some kind of guide as to who has the most to do with the conception of the series (which was not Zuffa in TUF’s case) or the process of turning that concept into a finished TV show (which absolutely was Zuffa in TUF’s case, along with their production partners, and I’ve never claimed otherwise, I’ve simply pointed out that it’s not true to say that they came up with the initial idea).
As to why Spike TV would make Zuffa pay for the series, I’ve already discussed that in this thread. They knew how desperate Zuffa was at the time and calculated that they could get Zuffa to bankroll the first season because there wasn’t much alternative other than selling the company. They were right, and the first season was a hit, and the rest is history.
I’ve laid out the facts throughout this thread, but as has been made clear throughout the thread, people are ultimately going to believe what they want to believe, and you’re free to do so.
“…who think that the Fertittas are untouchable, unquestionable figures who have never told a lie. ”
We believe Dana White has pushed the Zuffa myth. This has been proven. However, the fact that he has done so does not mean that he and/or Zuffa are habitual liars who should not be trusted. It does not follow that a person lies, therefore everything they say are lies. This is another fallacy from your line of reasoning.
Second, no one here thinks they are untouchable figures who have never told a lie. We don’t know them well personally. We can’t make judgment calls on their character because we don’t know them well enough. You, apparently, seem to be able to.
The problem, Ivan, is that all your “facts” are not facts. Facts are concrete things that can be backed up by proof.
Fact #1: Zuffa funded TUF.
Fact #2: TUF saved the UFC from an uncertain future.
Fact #3: Spike did not believe in MMA or the UFC enough to pay for producing cost of TUF.
Fact #4: The Fertitta made a reality show before they did TUF.
By inference, it is highly unlikely that Spike masterminded a reality TV show when they did not believe in it enough to produce. By inference, we could plausibly believe that the Fertitta got their idea from their America Casino reality show, which was a success and occurred before TUF.
Notice how we made inferences from the “facts” even though the inferences themselves are not “facts?” You seem to believe, from your twisted logic, that your inferences that Spike thought of TUF are “facts.”
Now, if you know anything about journalistic integrity, then you would know that reporters themselves are NOT sources. Meltzer is highly regarded because he break news that later proves to be true. However, he also break news that are found to be untrue. Remember GSP vs BJ Penn in Canada?
Now, even if we give you the benefit of the doubt that Meltzer’s words are more truth worthy than CNN or Forbes magazine where their professional writers must adhere to the strictest journalistic standards, rather than the hack writers from newspapers who often slam MMA. Lets look at his quote which you feel is enough for you to make your accusation:
“The story credited Dana White with coming up with the concept of the Ultimate Fighter reality show, which saved the company in 2005 after the Fertittas had lost $44 million in their first four years as owners. I don’t know that White came up with that idea as much as his idea of doing a weekly Tuesday Night Fights show was turned down by everyone on television. A reality show was suggested from the outside.”
We all know that Dana White did not come up with TUF. We all know that he hated the idea. However, what is “outside”? Could it be the Fertitta? Or could it be the producers of the Casino reality show? The paragraph was disputing the fact that Dana White came up with the idea of TUF, and NOT Zuffa.
Now, infer this: if Dana White did not like a concept, who could possibly make him change his mind? Could it be Spike TV, which didn’t even believe in the UFC, or could it be the Fertitta brothers who are his boss and have the $10 mil to put up with the gambit? Why would Spike come up with a reality show when they have no experience in doing one? The Fertitta, however, had.
Ivan, you need to open your mind to the fact that you are wrong. Your hatred of Dana White is clouding your judgment of all things Zuffa. I just laid out the logic for you. If you still believe you’re right, then there’s nothing in this world that could change your mind.
I should also add that the “Zuffa myth” is not so much a myth. The fact that the original UFC owners began to change some of its rules and strive for regulation does not negate the fact that Zuffa, with its deep pockets and connections helped brought the sport back from the brink.
While White may have taken on more credit than he was due, the fact is that the Zuffa myth is only part myth. And it’s debatable who is at fault, Dana White or the lazy newspaper writers.
Read this about the Zuffa Myth to see things in perspective.
Zuffa Myth
Just in case that link doesn’t work: http://www.gamecritics.com/fight-critic-zuffa-myth-debunked
“This is going to be my last post in this thread,”
I find it sad that Ivan started this argument with the first post on this and is now backing away.
Well Ivan I have been reading your work since ifl.tv but I will skip over anything you do for now on. I am sure that is rather unimportant to you but whatever.