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Where does Machida fit into the UFC 205-pound title picture?
By Zach Arnold | July 8, 2008
Just asking…
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Topics: Boxing, Media, MMA, Pro Elite, UFC, WEC, Zach Arnold | 25 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
I’m actually kind of impressed with what Brock has to say here.
He’s at least talking the kind of talk that I want him to, which is half the battle in winning people over. I think it’s a harder sell these days for a wrestling guy to come over to this side of the fence than it has been, but we really need any kind of depth in heavyweight that we can get.
“Still, the numbers should make us stop and think. MMA needs its own scoring system tailored to fit the specific demands of the sport. It shouldn’t be satisfied to borrow one from boxing, just like it shouldn’t be content to borrow their judges.” – Ben Fowlkes (SI)
Exactly.
It seems clear that Griffin will fight the winner of Liddell-Evans for the title. So Machida needs one more fight in the meantime, and it has to be against someone ranked higher than he is. The higher ranked fighters at 205 are Griffin, Jackson, Liddell, W Silva, Jardine and Rua. I think the most logical match-up is Silva vs Machida for the next title shot.
Machida has a case for getting the next title shot, but so do a few other guys. Business wise, Chuck and Forrest is the logical next match up. If Rashad pulls the upset, then Machida should jump ahead. I have to believe Dana has a soft spot for Lyoto for beating Tito anyway.
The controversy over the non-controversial decision last Saturday is going to lead us to MMA-hell. All these good intentions in trying to reform the system by making the judging criteria more specific are going to backfire and make the sport dull.
The solution isn’t to make the criteria more specific, but to simply get real MMA people as judges. Maybe as the fighter base greys a bit, we will have more ex-fighter judges. Assuming of course they can get the through the political screening process of their state AC…..good luck!
Its funny, because there’s a lot of people who claim that Machida is one of, if not the, the most deserving fighters that could get a title shot, while you rarely hear anyone make the claim that Tito Ortiz or Sokoudjou are championship level contenders right now. My attitude is that we can talk about him getting a title shot after he beats a top 5/10 guy who hasn’t been on the shelf forever and is actually on a hot streak. Wanderlei and Thiago Silva would be good names out of the 205lb list to use. There’s a lot of contenders there now, so is there any point in having all these guys fight creme puffs while the Forrest/Liddell/Rampage/Evans(?) carousel gets itself worked out? Not in my book. Have people fight each other and start moving guys up the theoretical rankings and eliminating other guys from top contention and into gatekeeper/failed prospect status.
Of course the thing about all these “more specific” criteria systems is that they almost exclusively favor punching that is measured in terms of boxing effectiveness and efficiency, and most of the subjective “full fight” judging really comes down to who looks the most beat up at the end.
I’m not sure that either one is any better than what we have.
If striking isn’t going to be counted in the same way it is for boxing or kickboxing (ie, effectiveness over pure volume), then how else do you go about counting it?
Machida doesn’t need one more fight to be ready for a title fight. He needs that title fight right now. Hoger. Heath. Nakamura. Sokoudjou. Tito. 5 – 0 in the UFC. Plus wins over current lightweight champ BJ Penn and former middleweight champ Rich Franklin. How much more does the guy need to do?
Griffin got his shot based on a 3 – 2 record against guys like Bonnar and Sick Dog, and getting KO’ed by Jardine in the 1st round, but Forrest was ready for a shot and Lyoto isn’t? Machida is not going to change his style or turn into someone else, so fans are going to have to bite the bullet on the “boring style” issue and let this guy have the shot that is due him.
Frankly, I don’t see Liddell getting past Rashad because of Liddell’s age and accumulated injuries. Rashad won’t deserve a shot ahead of Machida, and neither does Jardine. Machida is the most skilled fighter in the division, so it’s time for him to have his title shot.
There is a translation out there of an interview Machida did where he essentially accused the UFC of fixing the Rampage-Griffin fight so that Chuck can win the belt.
If theh translation is accurate, aside from the stupidity of that, this guy just doesn’t understand his situation. He needs a manger to shut his mouth and tell him what to say.
Forrest Griffin beat the #1 ranked light heavyweight in the world. That is how he earned his title shot. But beating Sam Hoger and Kazoo should earn you a title shot? Really?
Rashad won’t deserve a shot ahead of Machida, and neither does Jardine.
If Rashad beats Liddell, it makes him officially 7-0-1 at light heavyweight, with wins over Lambert and Bonnar in addition to Liddell (who is better than anyone Lyoto has faced or beaten), and a bunch of wins on TUF2 against Murphy, Whitehead (now a top 20 205er) and Jardine. Jardine doesn’t deserve it because he got KOed in his last fight against Silva, who would be a great opponent for Machida in an eliminator.
It is a good point about Rashad and the UFC might prefer him to Machida as a champion. The public doesn’t think all that highly of his skills, but he has an unbeaten streak that is better than Lyoto’s.
D,
It’s not so much the conceptual thought behind it, it’s that by only counting punches, which are by their nature generally going to be the highest volume attack in the fight, you’re always going to essentially reduce the fight to a boxing match.
If all that counts is punching, then it’s boxing, and fighters will trend that way because they want to win.
It’s not so much the conceptual thought behind it, it’s that by only counting punches, which are by their nature generally going to be the highest volume attack in the fight, you’re always going to essentially reduce the fight to a boxing match.
If all that counts is punching, then it’s boxing, and fighters will trend that way because they want to win.
I didn’t understand your point. I thought it was more in the realm of counting striking as a whole. Obviously punches are not the only important thing, and IMO, Forrest/Rampage was as good a show of that as any. In fact, it seems awfully likely to me that the fight was scored more on the low kicks than punches, which if you look at the aftermath of both men, was probably right.
Machida is not marketable. The UFC brass has found that out over his last few fights.
He’s beaten everyone they’ve put in front of them, but realisically it would be a nightmare to have a boring non-english speaking champ. His last fight against Tito was the UFC’s way of saying screw you.
UFC will never give Machida a title shot against someone they like being the champ.
Machida will get treated like Matt Lindland. Win fights in an exciting fashion or do not get a push up the ladder.
The 205lb Division is and has been the most exciting division in the sport for the past 6 years. UFC is not going to risk having a boring champion.
In Machida’s defense, it is tough to look exciting against Nakamura and Ortiz. He picked up the pace when he had Sokodjou in trouble, though that wasn’t a great fight.
Obviously UFC wants Chuck to beat Evans and fight Forrest in the promotion’s biggest match to date on the New Year’s show.
I’d also set up Rampage/Jardine this Fall. Both guys would be a big money match for Forrest if he beats Chuck.
If Chuck wins you want to do him vs Wanderlei in a 5-rounder for the belt.
So you need to build Wanderlei up.
Wanderlei/Vera or Sokodjou – both going to be bang ‘em ups that should make Wanderlei look like a monster.
I think Thiago Silva is the next logical match for Machida or Vera if you match Sokodjou with Wanderlei.
If/when Rua gets back he would be a good fight for Machida. If Rua wins (which is what is best for the promotion) Machida’s record puts Rua right back at the top of the pile where he was before Forrest beat him.
Rua gives you a big money rematch with Forrest. What could be a mega-fight with Chuck, a rematch with Jackson if Jackson gets the belt back and a showdown with Wanderlei in a year or so if they both keep winning.
In short the answer to the question is Machida is still on the outside looking in and his employers are hoping he loses and in the process propels his opponent into title contention
“he has an unbeaten streak that is better than Lyoto’s.”
Better in what way, exactly? I can’t see any way shape or form that Rashad’s record is in any way better than Lyoto’s. Lyoto has more wins against higher quality any way you look at it.
Machida speaks perfectly adequate English. Apparently you haven’t been paying attention to his promos.
It’s certainly better than Wanderlei’s promos. They’re in English, but UFC opts to subtitle them anyway.
Better in what way, exactly? I can’t see any way shape or form that Rashad’s record is in any way better than Lyoto’s. Lyoto has more wins against higher quality any way you look at it.
Would you say that would be true if he beats Liddell? You know, Chuck Liddell, the former dominant 205lb UFC light heavyweight champion? Just beat Wanderlei Silva? KOed the best fighter Machida ever beat twice? Clearly a top 5 fighter in the division? At that point, he’s beaten Jardine, Whitehead, Bisping, Lambert, Bonnar, Hoger (two of the people on Machida’s vaunted record), and a couple heavyweights in UFC rings, plus then Liddell should he win.
Where does he fit? The most boring right behind Tim Sylvia except Sylvia doesn’t run from his opponents and make a more exciting fighter than Machida. I still think BJ Penn could beat him in a rematch.
CaptainAmerica1967
I’d give Machida a fight with top 5 fighter, the winner gets a title shot. He’s got some good wins, but he doesn’t have any over a real top tier fighter. Soko and Tito were barely in the top 10, if they were in it at all. Give him somebody like Chuck, Shogun, Wandy, Rampage, or Hendo (if he moves back up). Jardine would work as well.
If Anderson was intent on winning the belt at 205, that’d be picture perfect to have him and Machida fight for a title shot. But they’re buddies, so that’d never happen.
I don’t think Henderson is moving back up, unless he intends to fight Anderson Silva at Light Heavyweight. Which would be kind of pointless.
Reports are that he really wants to fight Silva again, and if he intends to do it in a five round match, he’s going to have to work his way back up at middleweight.
I don’t know why I didn’t think of this yesterday. Goran Reljic would be a great opponent for Machida. Goran would push the pace enough with his kicks to make Machida get active. Could be a real exciting match.
think tournament…if they could do a tourney w/ experienced guys like T.Credeur for TUF
how about a NYE’ special night of champions the top 16 LHW in 5×5 min rds
Thiago Silva
Wanderlei
Machida
Quinton Jackson
Sokoudjou
Henderson
Mauricio Rua
Forrest Griffin
B.Stann
S.Bonnar
Rashad Evans
Chuck lIDELL
keith Jardine
Rhino
Spider Silva
Legionnarius
Ok 2 of the guys are from WEC
but the quality is there for the fans to rave about
Its called Fan Service
make the matches Long…I.e. start @6pm
and keep going till 2 am
the final 8 can be in February
and the Final 4 in April
the championship matches can be on next July in time for July 4th!
D. Cap:
Ah, if you’re saying once he beats Liddell he’ll have the better record to challenge on, that’s true enough. But the comment was
“It is a good point about Rashad and the UFC might prefer him to Machida as a champion. The public doesn’t think all that highly of his skills, but he has an unbeaten streak that is better than Lyoto’s.”
which really only refered to their past fights.
Lyoto’s record stands fairly higher than Rashad’s any way it’s looked at, currently, but after that fight they’d be crazy not to try and put the winner into the next championship bout just for the business appeal either could deliver. Then they could use the left over time to build hype for whomever the next challenger will be, and #1 on that list even now is Lyoto.