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Quote of the Day – Israel Gutierrez
By Zach Arnold | February 19, 2008
In today’s Miami Herald newspaper:
Instead, I watched the boxing match between Jermaine Taylor and Kelly Pavlik, a fight in which cuts were treated, consciousness was encouraged and the only time you considered someone would die was when ”guest judge” Harold Lederman got a little too excited while giving his round-by-round scoring.
And that’s where the hesitation to embrace Slice comes in. It’s not in the man himself. It’s in the mixed martial arts events where rules and safety are something of an afterthought, and too often referees step in five or six punches after a fighter’s brain has clearly surrendered.
Based on accounts from folks actually at the Elite XC event, there were cringe-worthy moments during the undercard where it appeared a fighter’s life was seriously at risk.
Topics: Boxing, Media, MMA, Pro Elite, Zach Arnold | 43 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
I sent the Herald a letter.
The usual anti-MMA rhetoric, but to be fair, that Scott Smith KO looked ridiculously bad for MMA.
I don’t understand why Smith gets a free pass on this. He KO’s a guy who ends up splayed out on the ground, clearly unconscious. One look at the ref would have ended the fight. Instead, he goes after the guy and gets one more punch in.
Forget the shadowy “Mr. I” or Xyience. This shit is much more reprehensible and much more damaging to MMA in general.
I don’t think Smith is at any fault for what he did. We’ve seen this time and again, and often with more than one punch. The fact of the matter is that if his opponent had hit the ground and woken back up and the ref hadn’t stopped it, everyone would be bitching that Smith didn’t go in for the kill. This is MMA, fights go to the ground, and it IS possible for a man to recover even when the ref should have stopped a fight, but didn’t. It’s the fighter’s job to fight until the ref stops him.
The fact is that Noke still took less punches to the temple than either Pavlik or Taylor. Gutierrez needs to educate himself on the death rates as well. It’s odd how boxing enthusiasts still argue this point, especially when statistics over the years prove that it’s much more likely to see a death in boxing than MMA.
Donaire vs. Darchiniyan was more scary than any of the fights at EliteXC. Darchiniyan looked like he cashed out after taking the left hook, falling, trying to get back up, then just laying there.
I thought that what Scott Smith did was a complete P.O.S. move, and I’ve been shocked that there hasn’t been more outrage about it online. It wasn’t just that he had Kyle Noke down when he landed the second punch. It wasn’t even just that he had Kyle Noke out when he landed the second punch. It was the fact that Noke was OUT COLD, his body completely motionless and defenseless, laying on his side almost in the fetal position, mouth wide open in unconsciousness and eyes frozen in place… and with the way he was laying, Smith actually had to go out of his way to aim his final punch ABOVE Noke’s twisted body, right over the shoulders, to land a punch on his head.
Leland, my complaint about the Smith KO has nothing to do with boxing. It was disgusting and reprehensible independent of any boxing match.
Ivan, I’m glad someone agrees with me.
Ben, a very similar KO was Franklin/Quarry. The difference was Franklin was not a dick and saw Quarry was out cold. The ref stopped the fight.
Israel is lucky he didn’t watch the UFC back before Dana banned the use of knives.
I understand your point, I was more commenting on Gutierrez’s comment, not yours.
Noke was out cold, but we’ve seen it time and time again, and I think many people just take it as part of the sport. It’s unfortunate, but I doubt commissions will ever do anything about it.
Gutierrez has a point but no one who should care will care.
The author of that piece failed immediately in acting as if there’s never been a death attributed to boxing. Why, of course there has, and will be more.
He also acts like the standing 8 isn’t a crime against nature and good sense. “Gee, you’ve already had the hell beaten out of you, we’ll give you about 8-10 seconds to recover. That’ll help!”
I call idiot on the author.
The standing 8 versus a sustained beating: you’re not seriously arguing that point are you?
Uh I hate to braek it to you but the standing 8 is what leads to a sustained beating. One punch on the ground v. rounds and rounds of additional beating, which sounds more sustained to you?
Interview a retired boxer and a retired mixed martial artist and then tell me who still is the articulate one. You can barely understand a boxer that has competed for years because he’s brain is so scrambled it isn’t even funny.
Jeff, you really don’t seem to get it. As spacedog points out, the standing 8 leads to the sustained beating, not MMA-style ends to fights. When a fighter is very badly rocked in MMA, the fight is almost always over. When a fighter is badly rocked in boxing, he gets the opportunity to take a lot more punishment. Deaths in boxing are usually the result of lots of blows over time rather than nasty KO blows, and MMA rules limit blows over the course of a bout in a variety of ways.
Apparently Israel doesn’t watch much boxing, as ‘referees [stepping] in five or six punches after a fighter’s brain has clearly surrendered’ isn’t exactly MMA exclusive.
Interview a retired boxer and a retired mixed martial artist and then tell me who still is the articulate one. You can barely understand a boxer that has competed for years because he’s brain is so scrambled it isn’t even funny.
Boxers have ten times as many fights than most retired MMA fighters. The sport is all of 15 years old, and dudes who fought at the first Pancrase show and UFC 1 are still fighting today. Alternately, let’s see how many MMA fighters are walking around without serious limps 20 years from….
D.Capitated:
MMA is older than that. Shooto has been around since 1989, and Brazil has always had Vale Tudo since I think the fifties, if not before that. And Japan has always had limited rules mixed-matches of sorts. But you are right, martial artists in general have longer longetivity than boxers. Hell, Rei Zulu, who is I think 63 years old, STILL fights! Yes, he is the father of Zulinziho.
“Uh I hate to braek it to you but the standing 8 is what leads to a sustained beating. One punch on the ground v. rounds and rounds of additional beating, which sounds more sustained to you?”
Easy: a break in any contact isn’t sustained. The 8 is also used by a ref to determine whether a fighter can or cannot go on. The 8 is not just a penalty but an opportunity to evaluate. Refs are trained to do exactly that. But of course you all know that because you actually know something about boxing.
Yeah, I thought not.
Jeff, and how many times has a ref “evaluated” a fighter and deemed him fit enough to continue the bout only to have that fighter out cold 10 seconds later?
Countless.
I can’t believe you’re trying to argue that one punch post-KO causes more harm than repeated blows to the head coupled with the fact that if you are stunned enough to get knocked down, you have 8 seconds to compose yourself to continue the onslaught.
I may not be the “knowledge god” of boxing you fancy yourself to be but common sense would seem to dictate here.
Countless? Is that your real answer or are you just really saying ‘I don’t know’. I only ask because it’s obvious you don’t know and are only using hyperbole and ill-informed rhetoric to back up whatyever point you think you may have.
I never said a single thing about a one punch KO but continued cheap shots after an opponent Ko as being discussed by myself and others. You’re not a knowledge god or even a casual fan don’t kid yourself.
No, from my viewings, it has been countless.
As in, I’ve seen it so many times, I wouldn’t be able to count them up.
From http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_a_0700.htm
Boxing
Fatalities listed
July 2000
938
December 2001
1,101
January 2004
1,197
May 2005
1,255
April 2006
1,326
December 2006
1,344
November 2007
1,465
Lets even assume that there are 100 time more boxing matches than MMA, the death rates in boxing is far, far more than MMA. Why are we even arguing that boxing isn’t inherently more dangerous than MMA? The statistics speak for itself.
“I never said a single thing about a one punch KO but continued cheap shots”
Continued implies repeated. Scott Smith landed one punch post-KO and as bad as it was (I agree he was in the wrong), it pales in comparison to the battering pro boxers take throughout a bout.
Boxing is inherently a more dangerous sport than MMA and Scott Smith landing a sucker punch to an unconscious opponent or a ref jumping in too late doesn’t change that.
“No, from my viewings, it has been countless.”
SO you remember the viewings but not the times or even number of times? Wow that’s awesome reasoning. You can take countless as the same meaning as numberless and derive what that means for yourself.
“Lets even assume that there are 100 time more boxing matches than MMA, the death rates in boxing is far, far more than MMA. Why are we even arguing that boxing isn’t inherently more dangerous than MMA? The statistics speak for itself.”
Boxing is inherently more dangerous and that’s not being argued. Merely that a punch after a KO obviously against an out of it opponent is OK because (HOLY COW!) boxing has fatalities. Because that’s the precise kind of synapse failure reasoning being used here. Hey NASCAR is more dangerous than MMA or boxing too but Smith punching an out of opponent is therefore cool by that reasoning.
Now all you guys are going to tell yourselves it is ok to have another 8th scoop of Haagen Daz because in Sumo it’s ok to weigh 350+lbs and after all none of you are sumotori.
The point is boxing takes what steps they have to safe guard fighters within the rules.
“Boxing is inherently more dangerous and that’s not being argued. Merely that a punch after a KO obviously against an out of it opponent is OK because (HOLY COW!) boxing has fatalities.”
I found one poster who didn’t mind the late punch. I also read posts by Grape Knee High, Ivan Trembow, Leland Roling, and myself that felt the punch was out of line.
You’re twisting your arguments here.
You cannot deny that boxing is more dangerous than MMA and you cannot reasonably defend a journalist who claims MMA is a deathtrap who it’s participants while praising the safety of a sport that has claimed over 1,000 lives.
Yeah Smith is a douche for that last punch. Ref is at fault as well for not being there to save the fighter but after watching it a few times, I’m saying it was painfully obvious to everyone that Noke was fucking gone hardcore
Cyphon, the page you gave isn’t a monthly list. Its a list of every boxing fatality collected in *history*, going back to bare knuckle boxing in the 1700’s. Way to go. There’s nothing remotely similar in MMA.
MMA is older than that. Shooto has been around since 1989, and Brazil has always had Vale Tudo since I think the fifties, if not before that. And Japan has always had limited rules mixed-matches of sorts.
Record keeping for Vale Tudo and Shooto is next to nonexistent. Shooto’s events in the 80s and early 90s are sparsely recorded, perhaps because they sparsely occurred. Not only that, the thing that’s cited often here as being the biggest difference between MMA and boxing for fighter safety (the standing 8) is PRESENT IN SHOOTO.
What Smith did is bullshit, but what is there to really do about it to prevent it from happening in the future? There will ALWAYS be sadistic psychopaths in the fight game, so this shit will happen again. And for the fact that the ref was too late to stop the match, so of course Smith was gonna pounce on him from there. Very few fighters have the self-restaraint to stop punching before a ref tells him to. Hell, look at submissions. How many times has a fighter tapped out from a submission, and the submission user lets go before the ref sees the tapout, only to deem that there was no tapout? It happens. This is more of a shitty referee issue than Smith being a dickhead issue.
Its a list of every boxing fatality collected in *history*, going back to bare knuckle boxing in the 1700’s. Way to go. There’s nothing remotely similar in MMA.
Okay, my bad. However, that still does not invalidate the premise of boxing being inhrently more dangerous than MMA.
Look at table 5. There is an average of 100 deaths per decade. MMA has TWO deaths in the last two decades, and those two were debatable if it was a pre-existing condition or not.
The fact remains that in the heat of battle, it is difficult to say that a guy is out cold or not. It is easy to say that while when we’re sitting comfortably in our chair with a cold beer watching the replays. For a fighter who is in constant alert mode and in fear of being punched or kicked in the face, how can we blame him for taking the next punch on instinct?
\”You cannot deny that boxing is more dangerous than MMA and you cannot reasonably defend a journalist who claims MMA is a deathtrap who it’s participants while praising the safety of a sport that has claimed over 1,000 lives.\”
Boxing is more dangerous than MMA for a number of reasons the rules being the most obvious. I like how all you guys bring up the bigger combat sport in order to defend your non-point. MMA is lower in popularity and has a far less populated talent pool. The first documented fatality has occured and more will follow inevitably as the sport grows. Bullshit like what Smith pulled creates the increased scrutiny MMA gets but it\’s not boxing so therefore it must be ok.
Okay, my bad. However, that still does not invalidate the premise of boxing being inhrently more dangerous than MMA.
The premise based on the figures given is absurd. You mean to tell me that MMA bouts held in the US are comparable in any way to bare knuckle events held in the 1800s? Or that you can compare the numbers of deaths in MMA to boxing when you’re using amateur, professional, bare knuckle, unsanctioned/poorly sanctioned as comparison material?
Look at table 5. There is an average of 100 deaths per decade.
Which drops sharply after the 1970s, right around when numerous changes were made in amateur and professional boxing worldwide. What statistics do you have for MMA in the 1920s?
MMA has TWO deaths in the last two decades, and those two were debatable if it was a pre-existing condition or not.
And the dead boxers didn’t? Indonesia is a country that’s contributed many boxers to the death toll in the last 10 years at a statistically higher rate than even the US, where boxing events happen on a daily basis. I have a feeling they aren’t doing CT scans before fights there. Meanwhile, what is the commission like for MMA in Jakarta? Oh, wait, there’s never been an MMA event in the country.
Extrapolate the data. So just compare the last two decades with the last two decades of MMA. Lets just compare US boxing deaths to MMA deaths. Is that more fair? How about this, use the deaths per minute fought ratio? No matter how you spin it, boxing is a far more dangerous sport.
Compare getting hit in the head exclusively for 12 rounds VS fights ending in 3 rounds or less (most likely one round). Some fights even end without a punched being thrown to the head through submission only.
Why are boxing fans so defensive about their sport? Are we advocating that boxing should be banned? No. There are far more dangerous sports out there. But there are no comparisons between MMA and boxing in regard to how boxing is setup. Just by using logic, we can deduce that, let alone the damning statistics.
“In MMA, you’re going to see there’s more violence in their advertising and marketing, and to the casual observer it does seem more primitive and more violent,” Lembo said. “But in terms of serious injuries, it seems safer than boxing.”
Nick Lembo from the NJSAC. But whatever, what do they know.
Extrapolate the data. So just compare the last two decades with the last two decades of MMA. Lets just compare US boxing deaths to MMA deaths. Is that more fair?
Over what period? Amateur, Professional, smokers? You thought giving boxing a figure of 100X as many bouts as MMA was being “kind”, its probably close to realistic if you want to combine everything. Really want to play with numbers? The number of fighters in amateur and professional boxing who died according to your figures would likely be below that of MMA in 2007 on a ratio of deaths per bout, which was probably MMA’s peak year in terms of overall events.
Why are boxing fans so defensive about their sport?
Why are MMA fans so gung ho about trying to prove their sport’s immense safety when there’s virtually no way to determine it aside from the minimal figures doled out? That fighters may be subject to less neurological damage is purely a guess based on the likelihood of how many fights one may have in a year being equivalent among the two, or in a lifetime. Hell, the dominant lower weight class MMA organization in the world borrows a rule from boxing that supposedly makes boxing significantly more dangerous while alternately having more heavily padded gloves. Are they just lucky no one died? Or are people willing to name drop them without knowing having actually watched them? Maybe if 8oz have thumbs, they distribute force more evenly?
Just as a further point in regards to the number of boxing matches versus MMA bouts: There were 419 fights at the World Amateur Championships last year, a two week event in Chicago. There were 200 fights (exhibition and professional) promoted by the UFC in 2007. Its not comparable in terms of volume.
D.Capitated. Boxing is more dangerous than MMA, it’s a FACT. I love boxing, pro wrestling, kickboxing, San Shou, MMA, etc. I love boxing probably more than MMA, but boxing is more dangerous. I am not damning boxing, and I am not defedning/praising MMA, it is what it is. And you mention 200 fights in the UFC last year. What about IFL? EliteXC? K-1? Strikeforce? King Of The Cage? Icon Sport? Valor Fighting?
Reasons boxing is more dangerous? Repeated blows to the head over 4-12 round fights. 3 minutes a piece (2 minutes for female fights and amatuer fights). MMA? Different feds have different rules, but usually 3-5 rounds and 3-5 minutes a piece. Since many MMAists aren’t exactly world-class punchers, you may see 20 punches landed between both fighters in an entire fight, whereas you may see punches landed from ONE fighter in ONE fast paced round. And don’t forget submissions and the availability to tap out don’t exaclty give fighters concussions. And boxing has ten counts, standing eight counts, etc. which gives fighters the opportunity to take further punishment. MMA, 8 times out of ten when a guy gets knocked on his ass or back the ref will stop it right then and there. I’m sorry there is no comaprison.
D.Capitated. Boxing is more dangerous than MMA, it’s a FACT. I love boxing, pro wrestling, kickboxing, San Shou, MMA, etc. I love boxing probably more than MMA, but boxing is more dangerous. I am not damning boxing, and I am not defedning/praising MMA, it is what it is. And you mention 200 fights in the UFC last year. What about IFL? EliteXC? K-1? Strikeforce? King Of The Cage? Icon Sport? Valor Fighting?
What about every other professional bout in the 100+ countries that held them in 2007? And amateur fight, of which there were tens of thousands more? The point was to show that a single amateur tournament (albiet the biggest) had twice as many bouts as the biggest promotion did in an entire calendar year. In fact, if you combine the total of EliteXC fights with UFC, you probably still don’t top 419. Now think of every national and international amateur event in the world. There were hundreds last year, all in tournament format.
And boxing has ten counts, standing eight counts, etc.
Shooto has ten counts. Shooto has standing 8s. Shooto has 8 oz gloves. You guys know this, right? Right?
You do know there are amateur MMA bouts every week too, right? Check HDNet and you’ll find at least 10 pro leagues going on per week, let alone amateur bouts.
Just compare US data with US data if you can’t extrapolate data. MMA is blowing up and it’s almost as big as boxing at the amateur level now. But you’ll deny that as well.
The world’s flat and there’s no global warming. Cumulative punches to the head is less dangerous than quick KO’s.
“Shooto has ten counts. Shooto has standing 8s. Shooto has 8 oz gloves. You guys know this, right? Right?”
How many deaths have there been in Shooto? Exactly my point, and as I said before, Shooto has been around since 1989, and not a single ring-related death. Hell, many of the fighters who fought on the first however so many shows still fight, as you mentioned. Tells you the longetivity of a decent MMA fighter.
Boxing is more dangerous imo because of the depth of the talent pool and frankly the rules.
The point I’m making is that boxing’s obvious dangers don’t make it an approvable thing of bashing an already KOed opponent. As MMA gains in talent pool and events more deaths WILL invariably happen. Actions like Smith’s increae negative scrutiny on MMA.
If the sport proves it cannot conduct itself with reasonable safety problems will follow. D.Capitated and I are on the precise same page. Because boxing is more dangerous stat wise than MMA doesn’t make it a good thing that you have Smith’s actions going on without any dangers either.
“Tells you the longetivity of a decent MMA fighter.”
Speaks more to Shooto’s effort to do things correctly imo.
You do know there are amateur MMA bouts every week too, right? Check HDNet and you’ll find at least 10 pro leagues going on per week, let alone amateur bouts.
What is the standardized rule set for amateur MMA again? Who’s the governing body? Oh, wait….
“10 pro leagues”….lol. You really don’t get it, do you? There were 7 *professional* boxing cards that Boxrec had advance notice of today, a random Thursday in February. Tommorrow, there are 35 professional boxing cards in 14 countries, comprising each of the world’s 6 populated continents. That along with probably 3-4 amateur tournaments and meets internationally. Sherdog shows no events today, and 4 internationally tommorrow.
How many deaths have there been in Shooto? Exactly my point, and as I said before, Shooto has been around since 1989, and not a single ring-related death.
A) How many fights under the Shooto banner worldwide have occurred compared to professional and amateur boxing events worldwide? Do you seriously believe its worthy of comparison?
B) Which fighters from the first Shooto event in 1989 are still competing regularly? At all?