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Friday headlines (1/18/2008)
By Zach Arnold | January 17, 2008
First, I wanted to let everyone know about a new site called MMA Memories. Check it out.
Onto today’s headlines:
- Yahoo Sports (Dave Meltzer): Gonzaga vs. Werdum a battle for position
- The Honolulu Star-Bulletin: UFC is not coming to Hawaii until at least 2009
- The Liverpool Echo (UK): Meet Paul Kelly
- CBS Sports: UFC 80 predictions
- The Telegraph (UK): BJ Penn set for Joe Stevenson UFC showdown
- MSNBC: Dana White – ‘I don’t think there is anything profitable about the European market’
- Setanta Sports: Network signs long-term deal with UFC
- The Republican (MA): Gabriel Gonzaga opening new school in Cambridge
- Yahoo Sports (Kevin Iole): Joe Stevenson wants to be daddy of the 155s
- The Telegraph (UK): UFCs are here to stay
- MMA Junkie: Interview with Brad Imes
- Jarry Park: Q & A with Frank Shamrock
- MMA Analyst: UFC 80 in-depth show preview
- MMA Madness: Interview with Dan Henderson
- TKO Xtreme: Pele coming to TKO 32 event
- Fightlinker: Zuffa owns the words “Cagefighting” and “World”
Topics: Canada, Media, MMA, UFC, UK, Zach Arnold | 63 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Hm, Link opening a studio in Cambridge.
Sityodtong is in Somerville.
Sounds like a rivalry 😀
I work in Kendall Square. Might have to pop on over and check the new gym out.
Nice on MMA memories to use my 3D octagon without permission. I might have to go Zuffa on their ass 😀
I live three blocks from Sityodtong and LOVE that school, but I’ve been dying for a school with consistent, straight BJJ on tap. Sityodtong has always had no-Gi, MMA oriented grappling, but I have wanted to take some straight BJJ and it’s nearly impossible to find within the limits of Boston. I am two miles from Cambridge. I am excited about Gonzaga opening a facility.
Oh man.
Yawn….can’t someone start a new MMA site without starting off the name with “MMA”?
Besides, I have to admit it’s hard to take a site seriously that puts Funaki in the Hall of Fame and then place a picture of Sakuraba next to it.
So Couture is auctioning off the Hummer that Dana White gave to him for coaching the Ultimate Fighter. Couture’s right, Dana White is such a disrespectful guy. He should’ve gave him a Ferrari instead!
I think mmamemories.com is a great site. I don’t know if that’s new or not, but obviously a lot of work was put into it. So what if they mixed up the pictures. Bigger and more commercial websites have made the picture switcheroo mistake.
“I don’t think there is anything profitable about the European market,” White admits. “But I think it (mixed martial arts) can be the biggest sport in the world.”
The UFC is losing money in a nonprofitable venture so they can grow the market. Then they try to protect their market share by locking up fighters to exclusive contracts! The nerves of these guys! How dare they try to retain their market power after all the hard work and money they pour into it! Dana White and the Fertittas are monopolists!
“White foresees MMA being shown through the Internet, not television, and expects to drive UFC through the dry periods overseas nonetheless, until technology reaches that point.”
I’m guessing he formed this opinion after he was unable to secure a deal with a reputable network. First HBO was the future; then network television was the future; now it’s the web. Oh well- at least that usually means the events will be cheaper 🙂
So Couture is auctioning off the Hummer that Dana White gave to him for coaching the Ultimate Fighter. Couture’s right, Dana White is such a disrespectful guy. He should’ve gave him a Ferrari instead!
This is the worst analysis ever. Seriously.
The UFC is losing money in a nonprofitable venture so they can grow the market. Then they try to protect their market share by locking up fighters to exclusive contracts! The nerves of these guys! How dare they try to retain their market power after all the hard work and money they pour into it! Dana White and the Fertittas are monopolists!
Well, they are, you know. They’re not really interested in building MMA. They’re interested in building UFC.
I’m guessing he formed this opinion after he was unable to secure a deal with a reputable network. First HBO was the future; then network television was the future; now it’s the web. Oh well- at least that usually means the events will be cheaper
It sounds like he’s thinking more about using the internet as the medium for the rest of the world. I mean, its a nice idea, but how the hell is he gonna justify to the public paying $45 to watch internet streaming video in France when the same person with the same connection can download the event on torrents a few hours later for free in higher quality? My guess is that Dana doesn’t want to spend the time getting syndication for UFC on free broadcast/cable/satellite TV overseas and would rather risk using the internet to create revenue.
Well, they are, you know. They’re not really interested in building MMA. They’re interested in building UFC.
A corporation interested in protecting their interest and themselves? The shock! The horror!
Am I the only person not living in a rose-colored world?
A corporation interested in protecting their interest and themselves? The shock! The horror!
Am I the only person not living in a rose-colored world?
No, I think people understand this. That’s why they aren’t entirely supportive of it. I mean, I expect Don King to screw over fighters but that doesn’t mean that I as a boxing fan have to support it because he puts on decent cards once in awhile.
Lets put it this way:
Can you say that the UFC, in their pursuit of helping themselves to a ton of money, is not helping MMA grow in both America and Europe?
I still have no idea where this notion of the UFC screwing over fighters come from. The UFC pays the most out of all the organization out there. The fact that they have not paid a higher share of their income does not mean they are screwing over their fighters. Instead of using their income to pay higher fighters (money breed primadonnas, queue Randy Couture), they instead decide that they want to grow the sport. Yes, they’re doing it for their selfish motives, but nevertheless, the consequence is the same.
I have always seen it as Zuffa stealing from the fighters of today to give to the fighters of tomorrow. They have done this wimth the WEC. They have done this with the UK Market. To the Fertitta’s & White, building an infrastructure today is more important then paying their top athletes $10 Million per fight. And in the long run, this is the right move for both the UFC and the sport.
And to be honest, in 5 years, headliners have gone from $50,000 paydays to $1.5 Million paydays. That is fantastic. Yes, salaries are not where they should be, but it would be stupid for Zuffa to give in, have all these huge contracts, and then watch MMA’s popularity decrease in then screw the entire sport.
Love your return to the old one-line headline format, Zach. Thanks!
Me and MMA Memories are best buds now re my octagon – see Dana, cooperation beats confrontation.
Looking forward to tomorrow’s event. Did you see how gaunt Joe Daddy looked at the weighins? He was getting close to Jason Black teritory.
“Well, they are, you know. They’re not really interested in building MMA. They’re interested in building UFC.”
I’m fine with that. UFC does MMA better than any other promoter.
“I have always seen it as Zuffa stealing from the fighters of today to give to the fighters of tomorrow. They have done this wimth the WEC.”
LOL
Anyway, they bought WEC as a defensive strategy, and that was a really smart plan. Versus wanted MMA programming. UFC had an exclusive deal with Spike, so they bought a smaller org and signed on with Versus. If a Zuffa owned org hadn’t, some other org would’ve and it would’ve given that org instant legitimacy.
As I’ve said before, I don’t think the UFC should be paying their fighters like boxers. The boxing payscale from what I understand is slanted almost all towards the main events. De La Hoya, Mayweather and Hatton may make a heck of a lot money but the guys on the undercards and the unaired prelims get paid peanuts. As far as I know anyway. I’ve always been a casual boxing fan so I could be wrong but that’s what I’ve heard at least.
I would like to see fighter purses go up but I’d mainly like to see that for fighters on the low-end and the middle of the payscale. It’s pretty sad how a lot of UFC fighters don’t make enough to be able to become full-time pro fighters who train full-time. A number of them work so-called “real jobs” on the side as carpenters, plumbers, security guards, cops, etc. This kind of thing looks very amateur and as Ivan Trembow said on his blog, gives the UFC a bush league image to the mainstream. Fighters in the big leagues, the top dog of MMA (UFC), should be making enough so that they can do what they love full-time. More full-time fighters means better, more refined fighters and better quality competition and fights.
On the other hand I don’t feel sorry for multi-millionaires like Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture and Tito Ortiz. These guys are well taken care of. I do feel the fighters should get a bigger share but the guys on the top should have the least priority for a raise. The guys on the top got their (huge) pay raises already after the UFC blew up. Getting seven figures a fight is pretty damn good.
I’m more concerned with the pay for mid-tier fighters, like Clay Guida, Karo Parisian, etc. You know the guys I’m talking about. They’re good, dedicating and exciting, but probably won’t become PPV headliners.
The low-end guys are easily replaced. There’s a 100 guys out there in the small-time orgs that are 8-1, 7-0, etc, and are hoping to make it to the big show. If they’re good, they’ll become mid-range guys and get paid after a year or so. If not, they weren’t worth paying much anyway.
If I’m running a company, I’m more worried about paying the main work force than I am with the interns.
Not all of the lower-tiered fighters are interns. There is a good chunk of the UFC’s main workforce that are making crap. Keith Jardine on his 7th fight, being 4-2 in the UFC beforehand, was making $7k to show, $7k to win versus Liddell. This kind of thing looks minor league to the mainstream media and in fact there was an article in the LA times that was critical of the shitty payscale.
If you bring in a Joe Shmoe “intern” for a 1 fight replacement, it’s one thing. But if you bring in a guy for a three fight/1 year contract or more, then they should be paid enough to train full-time. It looks pretty bush league to the mainstream when a significant number of guys on your roster have to work as carpenters, plumbers, cops, security guards, etc. on the side in order to make ends meet. If the UFC wants to be a serious major league mainstream sport rather than a cagefighting spectacle, they can’t be paying these guys as low as they do.
If you really think Jardine only made 14k for the Liddell fight then you don’t know the business of MMA.
Why do you think Jardine is not complaining right now? Yup, he’s been taken care of.
He didn’t complain because he’d be out of a job if he did. Even if Jardine got one of those famed “off-the-books locker room bonuses”, you damn well know that only a small portion of the guys on the card get them. It’s like working for the mafia. You may get a random “bonus” like that but it’s far from guaranteed. You guys will defend everything UFC. This kind of stuff makes the UFC look bush league and they are getting negative press about the payscale. See the LA Times report on fighter pay. It looks small league when a good portion of the roster has to do work a “real” job on the side to make events meet. There’s no working around that. Either the UFC cleans up its image (the way they pay their fighters is part of that) or continues to not get taken seriously and be associated with cage fighting spectacle and something akin to WWE.
Can you say that the UFC, in their pursuit of helping themselves to a ton of money, is not helping MMA grow in both America and Europe?
You know how to word questions to get an answer you seek. One should re-examine this, as complex answers to more complex are more valuable than proving that one can make an obvious statement.
I still have no idea where this notion of the UFC screwing over fighters come from.
Lemme explain it:
Instead of using their income to pay higher fighters (money breed primadonnas, queue Randy Couture), they instead decide that they want to grow the sport.
Now, see, this assumes that money not spent on fighter’s purses = money reinvested into the sport. Do I really need to tell you what the problem is with that statement?
Why would you ever assume that promoters would ever feel the need to pay guys more out of nothing more than altruism? It will never happen. The UFC will only begin to pay guys more than they do now when they start to threaten to walk away.
…building an infrastructure today is more important then paying their top athletes $10 Million per fight. And in the long run, this is the right move for both the UFC and the sport.
The infrastructure is built domestically. They seem to have decided that they will be dependent on the internet to grow it internationally, which is a nice way of saying “we’re not really going after international TV”. What do they need to keep pocketing money for?
…it would be stupid for Zuffa to give in, have all these huge contracts, and then watch MMA’s popularity decrease in then screw the entire sport.
If MMA’s popularity goes down, the sport is screwed anyhow. What the fuck difference would it make other than guys who were promised paydays will never get them?
I have nothing to add except that D.Capitated’s grasp of business is worse than mine when I was 3.
It’s always about the business for Zuffa lovers. They love the business more than they love the fighters and the fights. You love Dana White and the Fertittas or do you love the fighters? Which one is it? Who are you paying to see? With the way that the UFC is paying the fighters, it looks bush league. When the world’s premiere MMA organization is not even paying a good chunk of their roster enough so that they can train full-time and make MMA their full-time career, that reflects badly on the sport. It makes MMA look like a bush league sport.
Crappy fighter pay is one of the number of things that will keep the UFC from gaining mainstream acceptance. The UFC is perceived by the mainstream to be a cage fighting spectacle close to WWE and that perception won’t change until serious changes are made (fighter pay is one of them). It’s pretty sad when the average audience member makes more than a big chunk of the UFC roster makes in MMA. It makes the UFC look like the Arena Football League. If the UFC doesn’t change things, fighter pay will continue to be scrutinized in the mainstream media like with the LA Times article.
Keep on putting up those strawmen, Dave2.
Do you have any business training? I’m curious.
Dave2, you’re telling me that you have a false sense of reality with comments like “Crappy fighter pay is one of the number of things that will keep the UFC from gaining mainstream acceptance”. If Zuffa paid every fighter twice as much, the net increase in mainstream acceptance would be zero.
99.9% of the people who watch the UFC have no idea how much these guys are getting paid, and they wouldn’t care even if you told them.
“The infrastructure is built domestically. They seem to have decided that they will be dependent on the internet to grow it internationally, which is a nice way of saying “we’re not really going after international TV”. What do they need to keep pocketing money for? ”
Dana speculated that the internet might be the wave of the future. That wasn’t an announcement of a new business plan. Where the heck did you pull that out of? Nevermind, I don’t want to know.
Look, what you’ve got to understand is that Zuffa is run by people with a strong businessmen acumen. They’re definately not giving up on a TV deal, but they are acknowledging alternate venues may become more feasible for their business in the future.
“If MMA’s popularity goes down, the sport is screwed anyhow. What the fuck difference would it make other than guys who were promised paydays will never get them?”
Geez, I’m not even sure why I’m bothering. This is pretty ignorant. Look, the odds are that if MMA loses popularity, it’s not going to tank into oblivion. It’s going to have a drastic drop in numbers, but people will still be interested.
If people are locked into ridiculously expensive contracts, then the reduced income combined with the large expense of paying fighters may cause the business to lose enough money to collapse. However, if they kept expenses low until they lock in a very solid fanbase, then they will be able to survive a fanbase recession if one were to occur.
Here’s an analogy. You just got a new job. It pays a lot better than your last one. That doesn’t mean you immediately go out and buy the most expensive house and car you can possibly afford. You don’t have enough job security to do that. If you lose the job, you’ll fall into debt and lose everything.
UFC experienced a huge rise in popularity the last couple of years. It’s not guaranteed that the popularity will continue to maintain this level. It may be a sudden surge in viewership that fades away, much like wrestling experienced back in the 90’s. The UFC has to be careful about trying to grow too fast, which would not involve maximizing expenses like you would suggest.
I have nothing to add except that D.Capitated’s grasp of business is worse than mine when I was 3.
I understand entirely what Zuffa has done, how its made them money, what they want to do, and all the rest. You seem to think that not liking it because it could do irreparable damage to the sport of MMA means your business acumen is nonexistent.
Now, see, this assumes that money not spent on fighter’s purses = money reinvested into the sport. Do I really need to tell you what the problem is with that statement?
Why do you feel that Zuffa is obligated to spend all their money on growing the sport? Do you feel businesses don’t deserve to earn a profit?
Keep on putting up those strawmen, Dave2.
Do you have any business training? I’m curious.
I suggest you argue with reasonable people like D. Capitated. Dave2 will start accusing you of being a Zuffa agent when he’s loses the argument.
Dana speculated that the internet might be the wave of the future. That wasn’t an announcement of a new business plan. Where the heck did you pull that out of? Nevermind, I don’t want to know.
The internet, at least from the UFC.com side, is something they can control. The problem Dana has is he wants control over the product but if he wants to get it to wider audiences, he has to relinquish some level of control. It is simple.
Look, what you’ve got to understand is that Zuffa is run by people with a strong businessmen acumen.
I don’t know how many times I have to say this, but Dana is a failed boxing promoter with a bad reputation in Vegas among people in that sport, not a college graduate, and was railed on up until TUF was actually a success as being a pretty mediocre promoter. Do you remember the talk around UFC 45 about them shutting up shop because no one was watching? A reality show later and Dana White is the greatest genius to ever walk the world of combat sports.
Geez, I’m not even sure why I’m bothering. This is pretty ignorant. Look, the odds are that if MMA loses popularity, it’s not going to tank into oblivion. It’s going to have a drastic drop in numbers, but people will still be interested.
Then let me explain this to you: Fighters want to get paid in line with what they draw and obviously there’s a disconnect, because a lot of guys are talking about it and a couple have walked. You can say “$2 million is a lot of money!,” but that so completely misses the point, it barely merits me saying anything. Hey, baseball contracts in the 60s were a lot of money for the average joe, but not for the guys filling up ballparks and making money for their teams with TV deals and merchandise. One day, Curt Flood came along….
If people are locked into ridiculously expensive contracts, then the reduced income combined with the large expense of paying fighters may cause the business to lose enough money to collapse.
No one is saying “fighters should make $20 million dollars” if for no other reason that the gates and PPV buys don’t yet justify it. But telling fighters that they can’t afford it now because there’s a threat the business could go south isn’t legit. Dude, think about this rationally. The business could ALWAYS go south. Always. They could end up at 200,000 buys per show next year, or 5 years from now. Its always going to be an excuse. Don’t you get that?
Here’s an analogy. You just got a new job.
Me working is a horrible comparison to me promoting a sporting event. A car depreciates in value and costs money to maintain and run. A house is theoretically an asset though you have to sell it or rent it out to make money from it, and as an investment it may lose money should the market go south. On the other hand, a fight promoter holds contracts to human beings to have them fight and make money for them. And you talk about people not understanding business?
I understand entirely what Zuffa has done, how its made them money, what they want to do, and all the rest. You seem to think that not liking it because it could do irreparable damage to the sport of MMA means your business acumen is nonexistent.
I think Dana has done some bone headed things like not taking a television deal with CBS/HBO because of creative differences. But I don’t understand where the irreparable damage to the sport of MMA come from. The pay for top MMA fighters have gone up 20 fold within a span of 5 years. MMA is now all over cable/satellite. I would say that Zuffa has done more for the growth of MMA than any other MMA organizations out there.
Why do you feel that Zuffa is obligated to spend all their money on growing the sport?
Did I say they had to? No. Might it do some good to pay guys their market value so they don’t have the Tito Ortizes and Randy Coutures sitting around doing nothing while you run PPVs headlined by Michael Bisping? I think the difference in revenue might not be such a bad thing. Hell, the UFC might very well be happier with getting fewer buys or mainstream exposure if they’re paying the fighters nothing more than TUF contracts. Look how well that thought process worked for boxing…..
Do you feel businesses don’t deserve to earn a profit?
The UFC can largely do whatever it wants. Now, do I have to think its good for the sport in the long term, good for the fighters, etc? No. What’s coming out of this criticism here of my points seems to be “UFC is providing you MMA and they make money, so shut up.” I’m not sure how that’s a pertinent defense of their business strategy.
But I don’t understand where the irreparable damage to the sport of MMA come from.
I’ve said this a lot over the last two years and I’ve seen many more people start to realize what I’m saying. You know what the old saying is: You only get one chance to make a first impression? UFC has effectively lost 2 of their 3 biggest draws historically (#1 in Tito, #3 in Randy) over contract disputes. Liddell is old and Hughes may be retired, and they’re draws #2 and #4. Their best ex-heavyweight champ of the last 5 years is sitting out his contract. And now they’re running a PPV with Brock Lesnar as the headliner. See, once those guys leave, if they haven’t properly established the next link of draws (Anderson Silva has not been a strong draw, Rampage is an unknown, and GSP is too), we might talk about MMA like people talk about kickboxing from the late 1970s and 1980s when ABC would televise bouts once in awhile.
So the talk about “what if there are dark days?” is, in effect, self fufilling. You could have kept them away by paying the talent at the top of the card to stay (and they may still find plenty of dough to pay Hughes). But it increasingly looks like they might try to leave and go elsewhere, and that’s not good either. They can establish other promotional bodies just as Larry Holmes did the IBF 20+ years ago. Why else do you think Dana is so quick to talk trash about fighters that leave, especially ones who leave of their own volition like Nick Diaz?
“Dave2, you’re telling me that you have a false sense of reality with comments like “Crappy fighter pay is one of the number of things that will keep the UFC from gaining mainstream acceptance”. If Zuffa paid every fighter twice as much, the net increase in mainstream acceptance would be zero.
99.9% of the people who watch the UFC have no idea how much these guys are getting paid, and they wouldn’t care even if you told them.”
The mainstream media have already started criticizing the shitty payscale. Boxing guys pretty much use the UFC payscale to laugh at the sport and claim that it’s amateur. If you want to be taken as a serious major league rather than be seen as something akin to Arena Football League, you start paying your athletes like they are real pro fighters with pro fighting as their dedicated career, not just guys who did pro fighting on the side from their 9-5 day job. The UFC will continue to be small time if Zuffa doesn’t pump money into the sport. The UFC made $200 million last year with an estimated 20% EDITBA whereas WWE made $420 million+ with $40 million in net profit. The UFC is more profitable percentage wise, mainly because the UFC is actually cheaper than Vince McMahon, but they have less than half of the generated revenue.
The UFC will never be bigger than WWE, who may not have the PPV buys but have the significantly superior TV ratings and TV/advertising revenue, if they don’t change the way they conduct business and the way the president carries himself in public (but that’s another topic for another thread).
You make it seem that I have no “business sense” or have a false sense or reality but what I have argued is pretty much the same as what Ivan Trembow (and others) has been saying for years in his blog about the UFC’s payscale. Don’t make it out like this point of view has no credibility. Oh but I know, you guys think Ivan is anti-UFC as well. Anyone that criticizes the UFC apparently is anti-UFC even though it’s clear that most of the people who criticize the product still watch. We want to see American MMA grow and the UFC is part of that but they aren’t taking steps to make it grow and attain legitimacy in America.
Cyphron: Just because I exposed how biased your BJ Penn ranking is doesn’t mean I lost the argument. You lost the argument by claiming that a guy who only beat Pulver should be ranked. Not until he beats Stevenson and even then, he’d be at the lower level of the top 10. God what is with all the Zuffa shills on this site? There is no way someone would defend Zuffa to this fanatical degree unless they are brainwashed by brand loyalty propaganda or they financially benefit from the company in some way (ie. agents, paid shills like Kevin Iole, etc.) Zach Arnold may be anti-PRIDE (and let’s that bias color his writing about the Japanese MMA scene) but he at least doesn’t kiss the UFC’s rear.
Ortiz, while still a highly popular fighter and a draw, is not as good a fighter in the current pool of talent. He hasn’t dominated any fighter since Ken Shamrock. I would bet that he would tnot take the fight bout against Machida for fear of losing.
Liddell and Hughes are problems out of the UFC’s control. All sports face the dilemma of old stars fading and new stars taking their place. Couture is the only major problem that would have any significance on the UFC. But I would not discount Lesnar until after his fight with Mir.
But look at the stars they have now: Penn, Forrest Griffin, Rampage, Silva (both of ’em), GSP, Machida, Gonzaga, Rua, CroCop (cry), Nogueira, etc. I’ve followed the UFC and Pride for a while now, and the current UFC has the most stacked line up of any organization at any point in time. Sure, the old guards are fading but that’s to be expected of any sport.
However, even if we assume that losing those fighters would irreparably harm the UFC, I fail to see how it would harm MMA as a whole. The UFC hurting only serves to help other organizations. Unless you are suggesting that the UFC=MMA? That would go against your previous stance on this.
God what is with all the Zuffa shills on this site?
If I ignore you, will you go away?
Since I know that cyphron would probably cherry pick this even though he knows what I’m talking about (since I’ve mentioned it a million times before already but never registered in his head because he doesn’t know how to read), I’ll correct the following
“only beat pulver” = Pulver is his only win at 155 in the past four years. That’s why he shouldn’t be ranked yet and all the BJ Penn fanboys, including whoever is responsible for voting for him on Sherdog’s rankings, are delusional. Not until he beats Stevenson does he deserve a top 10 ranking. The BJ Penn fanboys on the internet are the most annoying.
never registered in his head because he doesn’t know how to read
BJ Penn fanboys, including whoever is responsible for voting for him on Sherdog’s rankings, are delusional
The BJ Penn fanboys on the internet are the most annoying.
Please go away.
This isn’t a UFC fansite. There are going to be people who disagree with your defending of Zuffa and the UFC all the way. There are going to be people who are going to respond to personal judgments like “you don’t know anything about the business.” Yes, tell that to Ivan Trembow and others who have discussed the topic of fighter pay extensively and have argued for the same things.
There are going to be people who disagree with your defending of Zuffa and the UFC all the way.
Dave2, you don’t get it do you? I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. I have a problem with you not using logic to debate but instead use your crutch of calling people shills, fanboys, accusing people of not being able to read.
In a debate, you have an opinion, and someone has an opinion. You try to see it from their point of view and they will try to see things from your point of view. You can disagree and both be right. You don’t have to always be right either. Read through the posts by other individuals and look at your post. See the difference?
Cyphron, I have made points to debate aside from calling you a shill/fanboy. The reason why I call you a shill/fanboy in the first place is because you don’t give any consideration of such points. You only respond by saying “you don’t know the business”, “you are out of touch with reality”, blah, blah, blah. Even though my point of view on fighter pay is similar to what Ivan and mainstream MMA writers have already written. And yet you are surprised when I call you a shill? You make things personal first and then complain when others make it personal in return.
You can disagree and think that it’s “good for the business” if the UFC doesn’t pay a good chunk of its roster enough to make pro fighting a full-time profession. You can think it reflects positively on the company when fighters from the world’s premiere mma organization do the pro fighting thing on the side from their regular 9-5 “real” day job. You can disagree with my statements and that of other internet and mainstream MMA writers and publications (ie. LA Times), whom all feel this makes the UFC look bush league and Arena Football League-esque to the mainstream. But to say that such an opinion equates to not having business sense or being “out of touch with reality” is an insult to all of those writers who know about the sport more than you do. When you make personal attributions, don’t be offended when others do the same.
Ortiz, while still a highly popular fighter and a draw, is not as good a fighter in the current pool of talent. He hasn’t dominated any fighter since Ken Shamrock. I would bet that he would tnot take the fight bout against Machida for fear of losing.
He’s certainly been competitive in the two fights against UFC’s young guns that he was in, going a legit 1-0-1 and would be 2-0 if not for getting caught grabbing the cage. Both fights were against top talent at 205 and he’s likely do much the same in rematches with both. I know the popular opinion is that Tito must be garbage or old or something along those lines and has been for 5 years, but those who trash him for being unable to compete at a high level are people who aren’t paying attention.
Liddell and Hughes are problems out of the UFC’s control.
Hughes is a “problem” they could right with some checks. Right now the money is such that Hughes can write books and make appearances and train and be well off. If the UFC wanted to hand him a $5 million dollar check to fight Rich Franklin, they’d have a big main event and make a pile of money. But that’s not going to happen because it would set a precedent they don’t want. Liddell they’ll squeeze as many paydays out of as they can.
But I would not discount Lesnar until after his fight with Mir.
I think people are way, way overestimating the value of this fight to the audience. Something I’ve mentioned before…
Penn, Forrest Griffin, Rampage, Silva (both of ‘em), GSP, Machida, Gonzaga, Rua, CroCop (cry), Nogueira, etc. I’ve followed the UFC and Pride for a while now, and the current UFC has the most stacked line up of any organization at any point in time.
Of those guys, the dudes you can expect to reasonably draw a crowd might be Rampage, Forrest, GSP, and Penn. I mean, talentwise, there’s great talent there to make fights. They have 205 so on lock everyone else should give up. But who are they gonna fight to make money? GSP has a fight with Serra ahead, and then what? Fitch isn’t going to make him money. Forrest is a good fighter, but you know, his contract is up this year. Penn is and will probably always be the wildcard to end all wildcards.
The UFC hurting only serves to help other organizations. Unless you are suggesting that the UFC=MMA? That would go against your previous stance on this.
This is going to be a little complex, so try to follow along as best you can, ‘k?UFC, at this moment, is the public face of MMA. We all agree, right? Well, they aren’t paying guys like some at the top want, and so some guys are walking out. Basic, entirely obvious and defendable position based on their own statements, and I think we can agree on that also.
Now, where the UFC can cripple the sport is by attempting to force their monopoly to such a point they impair competitor’s careers while alternately taking steps to increase their profit margin at the expense of making fights interesting to the mainstream audience. Randy and Tito want more than Dana is willing to pay, so he puts them on ice with his lawyers for as long as he can (possibly years, as it may be), preventing them to go to other promoters or promote themselves and thus open up the marketplace. Meanwhile, the UFC, now berift of guys people want to see fight, begins to market chiefly to the hardcore fans who will buy anything, giving them less than enthralling PPV cards more akin to what was on for free TV just a year or two ago and charging $45 for it. More revenue per household with roughly the same number of households and less money spent on fighter purses = more revenue and profit. And when fighters decide they want better, hey, go sit on that bench awhile and think about what you’re doing. We made you, boy.
Boxing did that when PPV money for a midlevel PPV was better than what they’d get from HBO or Showtime (who priced boxing out of the networks) were going to give them. What were people saying about the health of boxing up until 2007?
“Thirteen new states regulated (mixed martial arts) last year and Hawaii is one of them, so we want to go over there, but the regs aren’t done,” White said. “We’re not like all these other cheese dog shows that go over there before the regs are done.”
That’s the best Dana White could do? The master of the inappropriate public F-bomb is now calling people cheese dogs as an insult?
I can’t wait until his next press conference. “Randy Couture, you’re a fart head! And Frank Shamrock, stop talking about how I underpay my fighters , you smelly poo face!”
You make things personal first and then complain when others make it personal in return.
Okay. I’m a shill and you’re a mental midget.
That’s the last I’ll reply to you.
Randy and Tito want more than Dana is willing to pay, so he puts them on ice with his lawyers for as long as he can (possibly years, as it may be), preventing them to go to other promoters or promote themselves and thus open up the marketplace.
Tito was offered a fight that he turned down. Randy walked out on his contract. This is equivalent to Zuffa putting the fighters on ice?
Tito was offered a fight that he turned down.
And his chief complaint is money. Naturally, the UFC isn’t about to restructure his contract or release him. See: point made by me.
Randy walked out on his contract.
He complained about Fedor…but also a lot more about the money he was making. The UFC isn’t looking to restructure his contract or release him. They’re hoping that a lawsuit can prevent him from fighting elsewhere. See: point made by me.
This is equivalent to Zuffa putting the fighters on ice?
I get what you’re saying. Its just that what you’re saying is wrong. You’re saying that the UFC is taking all the risk and thus deserves the rewards. Its them who puts the money on the table and risks losing their shirt. The problem with that is when the risk becomes minimal. To Tito Ortiz, who supposedly has a back injury he’ll carry for life and whom is putting his life on the line every time he fights, the risk being taken is all his, his is the name on the marquee, he’s the one who’s selling the shows off his name, etc. etc. etc. And really, Tito’s right. Because when Tito fights, buys go way up. Did he sign a contract with the UFC? Yeah. Was he happy with it then? Sure. He knew what his value was at that point (prior to UFC 60) and offered himself for it. Now he knows he’s worth a lot more. Ultimately Tito knows that no one will be there for him when he’s old and crippled. To act surprised or even consider him the villain for not fighting below his value is ridiculous.