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Wednesday war room: New fighter ranking system online
By Zach Arnold | October 16, 2007
Danny Hodge, Chairman of the Oklahoma Professional Boxing Commission
Sick of various MMA web sites producing their own Top 10 fighter rankings? Dr. J has come up with a solution that involves audience participation. Check out his new rankings project.
Monte Cox appeared for an interview on Fight Network Radio yesterday (audio here).
Fox News Fight Game has two new videos (here and here) featuring highlights from the HDNet Fights debut event last weekend in Dallas. The second link points to a video interview with Josh Barnett talking about Randy Couture’s departure from UFC. Frank Shamrock also has some thoughts on this particular topic. So does the staff of Five Ounces of Pain, along with the staff at MMA Opinion. More details on the contractual dispute between Couture and UFC are available at Yahoo Sports. I don’t know how the $13-15 million USD figure was calculated in terms of hard numbers. Then again, Kid Nate is not buying what Kevin Iole is selling. Neither does the audience at Five Ounces of Pain.
Adam Smith = real man of genius, and I’m not talking about the famed economist, either.
Here’s a Q & A that Wanderlei Silva did with Yahoo Sports.
Why it would make good business sense for Dan Henderson to fight in UFC’s Middleweight division.
Luke Thomas has big plans for Bloody Elbow.
Tim Sylvia thinks that if he had been 100% healthy going into his fight against Randy Couture, the results might have been different. He has also hired a new boxing coach.
Sports Illustrated recently interviewed Chris Horodecki.
Eric Gargiulo can’t figure out the pro-wrestling/MMA cross-over appeal:
I honestly find nothing much in common whatsoever between pro wrestling and MMA. I think the two are completely different and it would be more rare than common for someone to be a fan of both. Fans of pro wrestling enjoy the show and fans of MMA enjoy the sport.
The irony of it all is that you never see a MMA website, newsletter, or magazine cover pro wrestling. Yet almost every pro wrestling outlet covers MMA. I cover MMA here but I cover everything on phillyburbs.com. If my coverage was exclusive to pro wrestling, other than a Brock Lesnar story I wouldn’t write about it.
The question remains what does pro wrestling have to do with MMA and vice versa? If there was a true connection how come the MMA community laughs at anything pro wrestling? Once again I think the wrestling fans have been worked.
Oleg Maskaev vs. Samuel Peter is set for February 2nd at Madison Square Garden. Meanwhile, Amir Khan is currently on trial in Bolton Crown Court.
A preview of upcoming episodes for The Ultimate Fighter.
Topics: Boxing, HDNet, IFL, Media, MMA, Pro-Wrestling, UFC, Zach Arnold | 63 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
I use to agree with Eric’s view, but after being a fan for a few years now, you see how people make the connection between pro wrestling and mma.
I think the only connection is a manufactured one resulting from the way that Zuffa/UFC hype up the fights and the “animosity” between fighters. Otherwise, professional wrestling is not a sport nor a competition, and does not have much to do with MMA besides that it’s dominated by athletic males.
That’s easy. The first MMA events were created by pro wrestlers. And it was pro wrestlers that grew the sport.
MMAHQ needs my domain that I had planned on developing: http://rankmmafighters.com/
That’s easy. The first MMA events were created by pro wrestlers. And it was pro wrestlers that grew the sport.
The Gracies were pro wrestlers? Really? That would be news to them and me.
The beginnings of the sport we now call Mixed Martial Arts began in Japan under the production of pro wrestling organizations there.
The beginnings of the sport we now call Mixed Martial Arts began in Japan under the production of pro wrestling organizations there.
So, what about the Brazilians? Did Frank Gotch run down to Rio when no one was looking and started running Vale Tudo cards? Was “Gracies In Action” meant to appeal to puro fans? Was Rickson/Zulu run on a pure sports build? Was Wallid Ismail attempting to work heel?
I can’t say that I agree with Dr. J’s logic regarding the fighter ranking system. Instead of having 100 different sites with different rankings based off of factual fight knowledge, we will have 1000 people attempting to rank fighters they have never watched. It’s a cool idea, but it’s not going to solve the problem of a poor ranking system based on opinion.
The best rankings I’ve seen so far involved the use of the Elo system (the ranking system used in Chess) which took the winner, outcome (KO, decision, etc), and I believe they also used the length of time since last fight into consideration to determine who was the top fighter in each division. It was posted by someone on the Sherdog forums (I know, I know), but it was probably the best post I read on there….ever.
Electronic ranking systems exist in boxing and aren’t very good. They fail to take into account fighters who fight withing very “closed” systems, in that they only fight countrymen of questionable talent, as well as giving older fighters who are clearly not capable of keeping up with anyone a higher rating. Boxrec.com and the IBO both use computer based rankings systems, and neither is as respected as Ring Magazine’s writer based lists.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the boxing system does not work well because it does not properly rank the winning figher (if he beat a no-name fighter) and older fighters are kept up in the rankings even though they haven’t fought in a long time.
From what I read about the Elo system that was used, it takes both of these variables into account. If a MMA fighter, let’s say Randy Couture (since he is all the rage these days ;]), beats some no-name 0-0 fighter, he will not gain many, if any, points for the win in the ranking system. However, if a fighter who was ranked #20th beat Fedor, who is currently ranked #1 in the system, he would gain a lot of points and Fedor would lose many points as well. Older fighters who have not recently fought who continue to drop points each day/week/month depending on how the system was created. Consistently competing fighters would be edging the once-a-year fighters due to their inactivity.
I realize that it’s not a perfect system, but it’s interesting to see how this somewhat-objective system ranks fighters as opposed to “I think Fedor is #1 because he never smiles and I saw him beat somebody!!!1”. It’s a little over the top, but you konw what I mean. 🙂
Seriously though, the “Maeda/Sayama/Funaki invented MMA” meme is the worst ever. Shooto, Pancrase, and RINGS both were forced to adapt in major ways due to the emergence of the UFC and vale tudo style fighting in the west, not the other way around. The history of vale tudo style fighting in Brazil goes back decades. The UFC had no legitimate connection to pro wrestling apart from the (largely necessary) use of guys who had alternately trained to be pro wrestlers in Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn early on and the fact that advertisements were run in wrestling magazines.
The history of MMA in Europe is/was based more in things like Muay Thai kickboxing (Netherlands), Combat Sambo, and Judo (Eastern Bloc) than pro wrestling. But these things are largely unpopular to say for wrestling fans.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the boxing system does not work well because it does not properly rank the winning figher (if he beat a no-name fighter) and older fighters are kept up in the rankings even though they haven’t fought in a long time.
To give an example, Larry Holmes was ranked as a top 50 heavyweight by the IBO following his win over Butterbean a couple years ago. Holmes was over 50.
From what I read about the Elo system that was used, it takes both of these variables into account. If a MMA fighter, let’s say Randy Couture (since he is all the rage these days ;]), beats some no-name 0-0 fighter, he will not gain many, if any, points for the win in the ranking system. However, if a fighter who was ranked #20th beat Fedor, who is currently ranked #1 in the system, he would gain a lot of points and Fedor would lose many points as well. Older fighters who have not recently fought who continue to drop points each day/week/month depending on how the system was created. Consistently competing fighters would be edging the once-a-year fighters due to their inactivity.
Right, but the problem in that system is it doesn’t recognize things like championships or decisions rendered in less than fantastic fashion. By qualifying a value for activity over inactivity, you run the risk of someone beating 10s and 12s 4 times a year topping someone who fights 2 times a year against top 5s.
@UFC (pancrase.org),
If you are looking to get rid of or sell the domain name, let me know.
Funny enough, Wladek Zbyszko did actually go to Brazil and competed against Helio Gracie. And there have been ‘mixed styles’ matches reported in numerous newspapers dating back to the late 1800s. Mark Hewitt’s “Catch Wrestling” book has a good appendix with the mixed styles match history, as a reference tool.
Funny enough, Wladek Zbyszko did actually go to Brazil and competed against Helio Gracie. And there have been ‘mixed styles’ matches reported in numerous newspapers dating back to the late 1800s. Mark Hewitt’s “Catch Wrestling” book has a good appendix with the mixed styles match history, as a reference tool.
This also happened at a time when pro wrestling was markedly different than it is today, and hardly an indictment of Vale Tudo as pro wrestling. As for discussion of pro wrestling in the late 1800s and early 1900s, I fail to see exactly what it has to do with modern MMA other than similarities in appearance. There are no promotional connections, no connections made in media, none made among organizations, etc. We might as well be bringing up the existence of Pankration in the original Olympic Games.
I wouldn’t say Pro Wrestling was really that different besides being multiple hour matches rather than the up to 1 hour match format you see nowadays. There’s plenty of articles from the time (late 1800s and early 1900s) of ‘fakery’ and by the early 1930s (when Zbyzsko went down to Brazil), the theatrical aspect seen in current Pro Wrestling was clearly present. Whereas the 1920 rematch between Joe Stecher and Earl Caddock looks like a shoot contest (although I seriously doubt it actually was given the carny history of the industry), the next available footage (Ed Lewis-Dick Shikat or Jim Londos-Bronko Nagurski) is clearly a work.
I wouldn’t say Pro Wrestling was really that different besides being multiple hour matches rather than the up to 1 hour match format you see nowadays. There’s plenty of articles from the time (late 1800s and early 1900s) of ‘fakery’ and by the early 1930s (when Zbyzsko went down to Brazil), the theatrical aspect seen in current Pro Wrestling was clearly present.
But by this point we’re largely past “style versus style” matchups, though there would be a number of worked boxer vs. wrestler bouts that went on throughout the rest of the decade. How one ties those to modern MMA is with the most tenuous of strings.
I think the link between pro wrestling and MMA is largely only in the minds of pro wrestling fans that have crossed over to become MMA fans. To say there is crossover appeal might be accurate, but that doesn’t mean or prove that mean that wrestling and MMA will be forever inextricably linked.
Similar situation: American football is descended from rugby. However, now they are completely distinct and separate sports. There has been recent player crossover (Sav Rocca) but that doesn’t mean that the sports are the same or that rugby has any relevance whatsoever to modern American football.
Does anyone have a link and/or story as to how they came up with those huge UFC salary deals? Thats far, far more money then I would have thought those two were getting…. (but glad to hear that they are actually getting paid!)
I think the link between pro wrestling and MMA is largely only in the minds of pro wrestling fans that have crossed over to become MMA fans. To say there is crossover appeal might be accurate, but that doesn’t mean or prove that mean that wrestling and MMA will be forever inextricably linked.
Similar situation: American football is descended from rugby. However, now they are completely distinct and separate sports. There has been recent player crossover (Sav Rocca) but that doesn’t mean that the sports are the same or that rugby has any relevance whatsoever to modern American football.
This is a great way of putting it.
It’s still safe to say that mainstream MMA is currently what Pro Wrestling *used* to be, and Pro Wrestling, before that, evolved from MMA (or legitimate shoot wrestling, anyway). So yes, they’re tied in several ways, and ALWAYS will be in certain countries.
AND the cycle can, and will, continue…it’s certainly possible that a fighting organization could return to a worked format (whether we know it or not) essentially making it Pro Wrestling. Look at boxing: legit at times, but I’ve seen phantom punches thrown and men going down to put over the headliner…isn’t that just ‘doing a job’, Pro Wrestling style?
MMA is regulated and monitored very closely (in the US, anyway) to ensure it’s legitimacy, but if it wasn’t, you have to believe the potential would be far greater for a work here or there, especially on smaller shows.
So while some MMA hardcores are obsessed with the ‘reality’ of a fight, and how Pro Wrestling is fake and stupid, the truth is this: if you’ve seen hundreds (or thousands) of MMA fights, chances are that you’ve been fooled at least once or twice into thinking you just saw a legit fight, when it was REALLY a clever work (ie. a very convincing Pro Wrestling match).
And yet you sat there at your computer, munching your Doritos and drinking a Dr. Pepper, completely oblivious to the fact that you were entertained by a big fat fake Pro Wrestling match. And if you were entertained, in the end, it doesn’t really matter whether it’s a work or a shoot, MMA or Pro Wrestling.
If you don’t think that the RAW lead in for the first season of TUF was crucial in its success, you’re a moron. A huge percentage of this influx of new fans were dudes watching wrasslin that stayed on to check out what this ultimate fighting stuff was all about.
I think honestly that it is not so much that pro wrestling fans are going to MMA or whatnot. But to me it is the casual fans of pro wrestling. Like someone that may have watched WWE in the late 90s once a month or ordered a PPV once a year, are no longer interested in pro wrestling but are interested in MMA. Those are the fans that have crossed over permanently
Just because MMA converted some pro wrestling fans is hardly proof of some mythical, perpetual connection between the two. MMA was influenced a bit by pro wrestling. In the past. That’s it.
Grey’s Anatomy got a huge influx of viewers by being broadcast right after the Super Bowl. You guys going to claim next that football and medical dramas will always be linked?
^ hahaha…I bet that could be the a chapter in a new “Freakanomics” book.
It’s still safe to say that mainstream MMA is currently what Pro Wrestling *used* to be, and Pro Wrestling, before that, evolved from MMA (or legitimate shoot wrestling, anyway). So yes, they’re tied in several ways, and ALWAYS will be in certain countries.
This is the key. No one is saying that pro wrestling and MMA aren’t tied to each other in Japan. That is true. To say such in America is a whole different bag altogether.
AND the cycle can, and will, continue…it’s certainly possible that a fighting organization could return to a worked format (whether we know it or not) essentially making it Pro Wrestling. Look at boxing: legit at times, but I’ve seen phantom punches thrown and men going down to put over the headliner…isn’t that just ‘doing a job’, Pro Wrestling style?
Fixed boxing matches are fixed for a number of different reasons than pro wrestling. Pro wrestling was initially fixed to fool gamblers and make money. No one takes bets on pro wrestling now, however, and so the reason for it being booked is entirely different: wrestling is its own form of performance art. Fixed boxing matches are not performance art. They are illegitimate sporting contests that are illegal.
So while some MMA hardcores are obsessed with the ‘reality’ of a fight, and how Pro Wrestling is fake and stupid, the truth is this: if you’ve seen hundreds (or thousands) of MMA fights, chances are that you’ve been fooled at least once or twice into thinking you just saw a legit fight, when it was REALLY a clever work (ie. a very convincing Pro Wrestling match).
And yet you sat there at your computer, munching your Doritos and drinking a Dr. Pepper, completely oblivious to the fact that you were entertained by a big fat fake Pro Wrestling match. And if you were entertained, in the end, it doesn’t really matter whether it’s a work or a shoot, MMA or Pro Wrestling.
The legitimacy of a fight matters a lot to me. I choose to watch MMA because its a sport. If I wanted to watch a fake sport that looks similar, I can go to IVPvideos and stock up on $3 RINGS DVDs.
American football has quite a tenuous connection to Rugby. The Burnside rules changes created a completely new sport at that point.
It’s more than just banning groin kicks or mandating gloves and no gi, we’re talking tag team fights, cages instead of boxing rings, underwater, with basket weaving type changes.
If you don’t think that the RAW lead in for the first season of TUF was crucial in its success, you’re a moron. A huge percentage of this influx of new fans were dudes watching wrasslin that stayed on to check out what this ultimate fighting stuff was all about.
We’ve argued this point before. As I’ve previously said, there is an occasion where the UFC ran against the WWE head-to-head and the ratings were unchanged for either. For a company that supposedly lost a lot of fans, there sure were a lot of buys for this past Wrestlemania.
American football has quite a tenuous connection to Rugby. The Burnside rules changes created a completely new sport at that point.
It’s more than just banning groin kicks or mandating gloves and no gi, we’re talking tag team fights, cages instead of boxing rings, underwater, with basket weaving type changes.
I’m not sure if you’re aware, but MMA and pro wrestling in the US, Europe, South and Central America, etc. are very, very different animals. Thus the comparison to the relation of Rugby and US Football.
“As for discussion of pro wrestling in the late 1800s and early 1900s, I fail to see exactly what it has to do with modern MMA other than similarities in appearance.”
You try being a professional level wrestler traveling in a carnival with mother fuckers trying to kill you for a hundred bucks in the ring every night.
Pro Wrestling was the original Vale Tudo in the 1800s.
You try being a professional level wrestler traveling in a carnival with mother fuckers trying to kill you for a hundred bucks in the ring every night.
Pro Wrestling was the original Vale Tudo in the 1800s.
That’s great. It was also held without state oversight in tents and temporary grounds, often not even in rings. Oh, and did I mention that the people who saw catchwrestling at its height in the early 1900s and late 1800s are all dead now and have been for many years?
D. I was specifically talking about Rugby and American Football. There is essentially no connection, ruleswise between the two. The Burnside rules were effectively a complete reboot of the team ball game played on an outdoor grass field.
Organizationally, there was some continuity, but it’s like saying that since Real Madrid has both a soccer team and a basketball team, that soccer gave birth to basketball.
Which is kind of true, in that same weird way that rugby and American football are related, but not because of that argument.
My take on pro wrestling and MMA is that in Japan, there’s a clear, close connection: the oldest MMA organizations in the country either began AS pro wrestling organizations (Pancrase), or were founded by people who ran pro wrestling organizations.
In the US, MMA as it exists in the UFC was never a pro wrestling organization and was not founded by any pro wrestling organization. However, some of the more well known and successful UFC fighters were cross-over pro wrestlers, who helped to influence what MMA in the US became over time.
I don’t know shit about Valle Tudo, so I wouldn’t even presume to talk about it.
Kevin Iole said this:
“There was one major UFC fighter who was telling me about a contract that would pay him millions. But when he fought, his salary was listed as far less than $100,000. He didn’t want to talk publicly about his contract for fear of irritating White.”
Jardine perhaps? $15,000 did seemed kind of low.
Jeremy (not that Jeremy), I find it odd that you would deny American football’s origination from the rugby culture, yet you seem to be arguing in favor of the very same relationship between pro wrestling and MMA.
They are both very similar situations. Many of the early football clubs were converted rugby clubs.
D. I was specifically talking about Rugby and American Football. There is essentially no connection, ruleswise between the two. The Burnside rules were effectively a complete reboot of the team ball game played on an outdoor grass field.
There’s very few connections in the rules of MMA and catch wrestling. Last I checked, submission grappling did not include strikes of any kind. If we’re gonna talk about a connection to the pro wrestling of 100 years ago, why not the wrestling of a hundred years ago? 45 round bouts, boxers used takedowns and worked clinch with greco roman wrestlers, etc etc etc.
Organizationally, there was some continuity, but it’s like saying that since Real Madrid has both a soccer team and a basketball team, that soccer gave birth to basketball.
There’s a closer connection to Real Madrid’s basketball team and soccer team than there is to pro wrestling in the US and MMA.
In the US, MMA as it exists in the UFC was never a pro wrestling organization and was not founded by any pro wrestling organization. However, some of the more well known and successful UFC fighters were cross-over pro wrestlers, who helped to influence what MMA in the US became over time.
It should be noted that the people who crossed over were never known primarily in the US as pro wrestlers, but as MMA fighters (Severn and Shamrock). Others who crossed over did so after success in MMA, like Coleman and Tank Abbott when US MMA was a mess. Who is really going to argue that Ken Shamrock’s involvement with the WWE made him popular when UFC had already outsold the WWE at one point with Shamrock and garnered him mainstream interest? Or that it benefited MMA given the state of the sport in the US back in 1997-1999 (when it was rarely available on PPV)?
I don’t know shit about Valle Tudo, so I wouldn’t even presume to talk about it.
Vale Tudo’s history has no pro wrestling lineage attached to it whatsoever. There have been pro wrestlers to compete in bouts in Brazil, but there have been fighters from all walks of life and all martial arts who’ve done so. The keynote rivalry, after all, was BJJ/Capioera.
There isn’t so much of a cross-over between pro-wrestling and MMA as there is a common denominator, which is the core formula. The formula is that people will pay to watch grown men fight mano e mano. However, there is no more connection between pro-wrestling and MMA than Dragonball Z and MMA. That said, guys jumping off the top ropes, men hugging each other on the ground or anime characters with big eyes will not appeal to everyone equally and you have some fans that will overlap, but doesn’t mean that they are crossing over for other than the most basic reasons.
The problem is that “smart marks” (as Zach Arnold would say) have this highly inflated and egocentric view of the pro-wrestling world and over-estimate its influence on society and pop-culture to justify their interest in it. Just because Mohammed Ali might have borrowed some of his trashy talking and showmanship from pro-wrestlers doesn’t make that pro-wrestling any more important or influencial than what it is.
Well said.
Jeremy (not that Jeremy), I find it odd that you would deny American football’s origination from the rugby culture, yet you seem to be arguing in favor of the very same relationship between pro wrestling and MMA.
They are both very similar situations. Many of the early football clubs were converted rugby clubs.
The Burnside rules originated at the Ontario Rugby Club. I didn’t claim otherwise. I said:
“There is essentially no connection, ruleswise between the two. The Burnside rules were effectively a complete reboot of the team ball game played on an outdoor grass field.
Organizationally, there was some continuity,”
I was specifically attempting to address your claim that:
American football is descended from rugby.
It’s not. There is a connection organizationally, but the sport is not only completely distinct, the rules are not derived from rugby at all. They are a complete rewrite. American Football is not rugby 2.0, and it never was. It’s Microsoft Outlook vs. Groove. They occupy the same basic space, but they are completely different, and were designed to be that way from the ground up.
I am putting a little line here so that you know that I’m now talking about something completely different, because I have a habit of changing topics in mid post and people don’t seem to follow that well.
===
MMA in Japan has close ties to Japanese professional wrestling. As an example: Pancrase was a professional wrestling organization whose rules, over time, grew similar to what we see in UFC-style MMA. That is a rule connection between pro wrestling and MMA in Japan.
As another example, you have Japanese MMA organizations that were founded or bankrolled by professional wrestling organizations in Japan. That is an organizational connection between Japanese pro wrestling and Japanese MMA.
As a counter example, UFC is not now, and never was a pro wrestling organization. The rules in UFC evolved separately from the rules in Japanese organizations like Pancrase, but went in the same general direction. You have parallel evolution.
However, you did have some individuals who were pro-wrestlers who fought in UFC who simultaneously, or at other points in their career performed in US pro wrestling organizations, Japanese pro wrestling organizations, and Japanese MMA organizations.
There was, therefore, cross-pollination of techniques between US and Japanese pro wrestling organizations and the evolved MMA forms of Japanese pro wrestling organizations and the UFC.
The RULES that the UFC and other US MMA organizations operate under now are a combination of boxing rules and rules that allow for the techniques that were then current in UFC because you had boxing commissions starting to regulate a new, and distinct sport.
If the question is whether Japanese and US pro wrestling had an influence on modern MMA as it is exemplified in Japan and the United States, then the answer is YES.
If the question is whether there is a direct connection between pro wrestling and the UFC right now, then the answer is NO.
If the question is why there is cross over appeal, then I’d say that the answer has a lot of segments. One of which is that some pro wrestling fans probably followed pro wrestlers in the UFC just like they would have followed them if they had gone from WWE to TNA (or whatever, I’m not familiar). Another answer is that they like to watch 1 on 1 combat sports, and MMA is a 1 on 1 combat sport that happens to be available to watch. They might just as well watch sumo or judo if those were more easily available (aside from the years late basho coverage that sometimes used to air on ESPN2).
As to why people don’t go the other way, I think it’s because there are a lot of people who are relatively new to combat sports, who think of UFC AS a sport, who don’t think of US pro wrestling as a sport, and therefore aren’t interested.
On the opposite side, I personally know some people who watch US pro wrestling, in part, BECAUSE it isn’t a sport. They watch it as a prime time soap opera, and they feel ok about the violence because they “know that it isn’t real.”
There are a lot of people, like Zach, who argue that UFC in particular needs more sizzle with it’s steak. Some people love the sizzle, they’ll consume anything as long as it sizzles, and they’re attracted to wrestling because of the sizzle. Other people, like myself, came for the damn steak, and view pro wrestling as a no-steak experience.
You want to put some sizzle on UFC? Go ahead, as long as there’s still a steak on my plate, I’ll be happy. The Ultimate Fighter is all about the sizzle. I don’t watch it, except for the finale. It doesn’t bother me that there’s another audience that does want to watch that stuff, and then follows those guys onto the Ultimate Fight Night and further onto the pay per views.
I think that’s all we’re saying.
I don’t think anyone denied the historical, Japanese-centric connection between pro-wrestling and MMA. But that’s history.
I still believe that rugby -> football is similar to puroreso -> Japanese MMA. Football rules did NOT change instantly with the Burnside rules. That is very specific to Canadian football that American football did not implement. Walter Camp started the divergence from rugby and changes continued to occur for years to today’s modern American football. To deny that football rules do have roots in rugby (Rugby 2.0 or not), I think is taking an extreme viewpoint that is not necessary here.
I’m all about the X-treme baby 😀
Let’s put some sizzle on that sizzle.
It would appear that the sport of MMA in North America ( & the UK now as well ) is a hybridization of the heavily pro wrestling influenced game of Japan & the Vale Tudo of Brazil. With it’s early days being, of course, much more of the “Gracie challenge” style with each participant representing their particular style as much ( if not moreso ) as they did themselves.
By the point of the Shamrock – Severn II bout & it’s undercard made up of individual match ups for the first time as opposed to a tournament, the UFC had made the transition to being more a more Japan influenced promotion. Which, for the most part, is where it’s still at today.
“You try being a professional level wrestler traveling in a carnival with mother fuckers trying to kill you for a hundred bucks in the ring every night.
Pro Wrestling was the original Vale Tudo in the 1800s.”
Pro Wrestling was a worked back then as it is now, almost. You are aware of that aren’t you?
MMA is what Pro Wrestling should have been. Instead, Pro Wrestling went the ‘fake’ route.
Some guy on the Strikeforce show got busted for 2 types of steroids, cocaine, and weed.
UFC officially announced Serra vs. Hughes. If they combine that fight with Penn/Stevenson & Silva/Liddell, then we got a nice little card as a delayed X-Mas present.
By the point of the Shamrock – Severn II bout & it’s undercard made up of individual match ups for the first time as opposed to a tournament, the UFC had made the transition to being more a more Japan influenced promotion. Which, for the most part, is where it’s still at today.
How is that “Japan influenced”? What, you mean that kickboxing, boxing, and common business sense wasn’t influential in this?
God bless Danny Hodge!
Jeremy’s rant, BTW, is basically an example of what GameCritics.com says above. Talk of “parallel evolution” is a front to deflect the obvious fact that Vale Tudo style fighting, which is exactly and unabashedly what the UFC was early in its existence, forced widespread change within the shootboxing/wrestling community in Japan, leading to the modern rule set of Shooto, PRIDE, K-1 HERO’s, Pancrase, and so on. This is something that the leaders of said organizations have said themselves. MMA in the US never adopted any of the rules of the Japanese organizations however. There are no 5 point rules in the UFC, no rope grabs in the IFL, no standing 8 counts in Strikeforce, no points scored for catches in KOTC, no 8oz gloves in EliteXC.
So, wait, what insidious cabal am I fronting for again?
Just so I know who keeps leaving the money hats that keep arriving in my post box.
As I said, I don’t know much about Vale Tudo (well, anything really), but I’ve seen comments on this very site suggesting that Vale Tudo style fighting is what kick-started pro wrestling in Japan in the first place.
If you’re going to defend Vale Tudo’s honor, then why not go back to the source?
D. Capitated is absolutely correct. I don’t know where this idea that MMA started in Japan came from. Modern MMA is traced through the early UFC to the vale tudo in Brazil. Shootfighting was considered another martial art found among some Vale Tudo competitors. People forget who started the UFC. It wasn’t Tiger Mask.