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Tuesday turmoil: Mainstream media questions if Liddell was all hype and no substance
By Zach Arnold | September 24, 2007
Does anyone know of alternates to Feedity for creating RSS feeds that does not require creating an account or going through the hassle of registration?
Chuck Liddell = $500,000 USD. Keith Jardine = $14,000 USD. Well. Useless stat of the day – if you combine the listed fight purse money for the main event, Chuck Liddell ended up with 97.2% of the cash.
Akihiro Gono made it official today – he’s fighting on the UFC 78 (11/17 Newark, New Jersey) show. His nickname and gimmick will be “The Japanese Sensation.” Check out the afro today.
Pro Elite completes $22.5 million private funding.
The latest Sports Illustrated column on MMA.
The emotions of Joe Silva and Dana White.
Renato Babalu was fined $25,000 by the NSAC.
Pramit Mohapatra explains how CompuStrike works.
Luke Thomas talks about Kevin Iole. Somehow, I think Kevin will laugh at that column while counting the zillions of dollars he’s making at Yahoo Sports. one reader has a clever theory about why Kevin produces must-read material.
I watched the IFL TV show last night (featuring footage from their Hollywood, Florida event) and gradually things seem to be improving in terms of production values for the broadcast (although those Gamma-O ads are goofy). It certainly has a different feel than the UFC product. It was weird to see no heat at the end of the show, however, for the championship ring ceremony (which came off completely flat). Sam Caplan seems optimistic for the IFL, although I’d rather let the financials do the talking.
The Ultimate Fighting Championship should be renamed the Ultimate Fatal Cauldron, it is that brutal. … Until a few years ago, mixed martial arts fighters sometimes fought literally to the death. … With those tiny ‘gloves’ shaped like black, leather knuckledusters, the damage in UFC is 10 times worse than anything a boxer could dish out. It is licensed thuggery.
Onto today’s headlines.
- Fox Sports: Jermain Taylor needs to impress
- Irish Whip Fighting: The fallout of Knockout – Inside UFC 76’s upsets
- Yahoo Sports: Kelly Pavlik’s trainer gets his day in the sun
- Steve Sievert: Chuck Liddell-Wanderlei Silva slips through UFC’s grasp
- MMA Madness: Why UFC needs Fedor
- MMA Analyst: Liddell’s retirement? A load of crap
- CBS Sportsline: White uncertain if Liddell/Silva will still happen
- The Valley Vanguard (Aaron Crossen): Upsets built into MMA
- The Desert Dispatch (CA): Q & A with WEC ring announcer Joe Martinez
- MMA Junkie: Hector Lombard vs. Karo Parisyan set for UFC 78
- MMA Weekly: London calling – the next step forward
- MMA HQ: Video of UFC 76 post-fight press conference
- Todd Martin (CBS Sports): MMA world is flat – making sense of UFC 76
Topics: Boxing, IFL, Japan, Media, MMA, Pro Elite, UFC, WEC, Zach Arnold | 87 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Awesome post at WO re: Dana and Joe Silva’s “emotions”. It many ways, it’s all up to Wanderlei now…
It’s a total fanboy of me…but I’d be giddy if Wanderlei went on another scorch the earth campaign in the UFC like he did in PRIDE, this time in an effort to set up Silva-Rampage III.
What Meltzer said about Miller’s article.
–I want to make a quick comment on Ben Miller’s column on the site regarding Joe Silva coming up to me when the Griffin vs. Rua fight ended. It said Griffin vs. Rua was booked for a Griffin win by Silva. Obviously every fight has different people hoping for different outcomes, but most UFC fights are booked either to showcase a guy and hope it works, or with the idea that either ending can lead to something. Most of your main matches fit into the latter category and this was one of them. When Silva came to me and regarding Dana White’s speech, is that as much as they will tell you and they try to ignore the Internet, it’s, more than almost any other sport of its level, the foundation almost of news and interest. For years two key themes have been Pride guys were so much better than UFC, and that the guys off Ultimate Fighter that are popular with the masses like Forrest Griffin, are really jokes as fighters and would get killed if they were booked with the top-level guys. I see Griffin vs. Rua’s result as more in their minds a way to shut people up who say the reality show was a joke and UFC was second-rate, as much as the match being booked with that purpose in mind. I know why the match was booked, and it’s because Griffin was asked to fight Lyoto Machida, and he said it’ll be a crappy match and he wants to be in an exciting match, and he asked for Shogun. I’m guessing they expected Shogun to win and it would be an exciting fight, but either way, that fight was a win/win. At least that’s how I read it.
Wanderlei vs. Forest, winner gets post-injury-rehab Rampage. There is no other choice.
I’m not quite ready to say White sacrificed impartiality among his fighters, since it was clear to me he was spitting acid toward Sherdog.com (and all it represents to him, whales and all) more than anything, and what Meltzer said. But, his rant was completely inappropriate, I agree, and I wonder what White needs to do before the Ferttitas take him aside and have a word with him. Miller’s piece also makes Kevin Iole sound like a 17-yr old blogger.
I totally agree..Awesome post at WO re: Dana and Joe Silva’s “emotions”.
Its sad that no one is giving much reasoning around Rua’s poor performance given he just got married a few weeks ago, let alone working for new company, who can focus or train during one of the most important events of your life. I only wish Rua would have waited until a few months after the wedding to make his debut. Same with Henderson, waited some time after the new born baby. Seems like both fighter had MAJOR life events during the time they would be preparing for their ufc fights.
I’m just happy to see WO has the guts to write how they see it, despite Dana White’s post UFC conf. , his comments about goofy websites.
I disagree with what Meltzer said about Miller’s article, as I think F. Griffin is a walking UFC puppet, says whatever the UFC tells him to say. I remember Forrest clearing stating ‘he wont back down from anyone’ before the fight with Hector (Ireland). Well…he basicly backed down from Lyoto Machida. Once because the staph, then he had his chance to fight, but backed down because of so called fight style. So which is it? Or what do they want you to say this time? Or is Lyoto a very prepared fighter???
I have no regrets for not getting this PPV, I would’ve been disappointed anyway.
Meltzer is right. It was a win/win situation for the promotion and they didn’t intend for Forrest to win, in a sense Shogun winning would have been good for them, and did a good amount of promo on him. But, of course, Forrest winning wouldn’t be bad either at all. Initially 3 other names were offered to Shogun, and then it was switched to Forrest, whom from Shogun’s perspective (at least that was my thinking back then) was the best option, since it would likely be exciting and could present a win against a famous guy for mainstream crowd, so Shogun would benefit greatly from it. Where it got messed up was in other factors likely, that MAYBE involved training and focus. Props to Forrest for a great showing.
You know your cynicism against the UFC is no match in terms of credibility with Meltzer, right?
When reading anything that Dave Meltzer writes about Dana White or the UFC, one has to keep in mind that the two of them are friends and that Meltzer is extremely reluctant to write anything negative about White. The same is true in the Observer with other friends of his such as Bret Hart, Frank Shamrock, Superstar Billy Graham, or any number of other examples. I have sent e-mails to the Observer complaining about the “friends coverage” of various people in the past, and I’m sure other people have as well, but his coverage of anything to do with his friends continues to be consistently biased.
“It’s a total fanboy of me…but I’d be giddy if Wanderlei went on another scorch the earth campaign in the UFC like he did in PRIDE, this time in an effort to set up Silva-Rampage III.”
Not going to happen. Fighters who get brutally knocked out ONCE are usually not the same for at least their next one fight. Fighters who get brutally knocked out TWICE in a row… that just compounds all of the things that are caused by one brutal knockout (potential reluctance to engage during a fight, increased chance of getting knocked out again, decreased reflexes, etc). At the very least, it takes a couple of fights to get “back to normal” from something like that, and that generally applies to fighters in both MMA and boxing.
Also, Silva is among the smallest fighters in the entire light heavyweight division of the UFC, so I don’t know that he would necessarily be going on a tear even if he hadn’t been brutally knocked out in his last two fights.
I disagree with what Meltzer said about Miller’s article, as I think F. Griffin is a walking UFC puppet, says whatever the UFC tells him to say. I remember Forrest clearing stating ‘he wont back down from anyone’ before the fight with Hector (Ireland). Well…he basicly backed down from Lyoto Machida. Once because the staph, then he had his chance to fight, but backed down because of so called fight style. So which is it? Or what do they want you to say this time? Or is Lyoto a very prepared fighter???
Griffin ducked Machida…to fight SHOGUN? Dude, credibility: you have none.
Ivan,
The more you post, the more your hatred of Zuffa is coming across.
Meltzer has many friendships in both MMA and Pro Wrestling. That has never stopped him from being the best reporter out there. There have been multiple times where he has been critical of what the UFC has done. Unlike bad writers such as Iole, he actually backs up his statements and has very good points.
As for the booking of Griffin/Rua…. At the end of the day, it is up to the fighters to determine who advances. Not Dana White. Not Joe Silva. Not Dave Meltzer. It is up to the fighters. Do you think Joe Silva thought Jon Fitch was going to be some phenom when they continued to book him in dark matches? NO!!! But he continued to win, and they had no choice but to advance his career.
I have to laugh at the people getting all fired up at this stuff. The UFC wanted Mirko Cro Cop to succeed. And they gave him every chance to do so. He just failed. Sorry, but this isn’t Pro Wrestling….. Those mind sets just don’t work.
I agree with ’45 Huddle’
Sometimes, some of the guys on here (Ivan and Zach) are pushing and trying to hard to find the ‘angle’ or ‘story’ with each event. Find the hidden inside scoop or conspiracy.
Look at this right here. Rather than discussing some great fights, the post has dissolved into yet another mindless blathering about ‘what Dana really meant’ and lets get Dana White.
I read fightopinion every day, but reading the comments is starting to bore me. It’s becoming very predictable.
Dana, and the UFC organization as a whole, reap what they sow. Despite the “yes” men, Dana truly dislikes all the Internet sites that don’t kiss his tuckus from the get-go. I have had first-hand experience of this myself.
You can’t just close your eyes and make that go away. He just had a tirade about it yet people still persist in ignoring that Dana is burning the grass roots. It’s not just Sherdog. Trust me on that one. It’s not anti-Dana, Its cold hard facts.
Dave Meltzer wrote a real good piece. I don’t follow him because I can’t stand pro-wrestling but every piece that I have read of his has seemed fair and un-biased. Doesn’t mean he really is but at least it doesn’t bleed into what little writing I have read.
“Griffin ducked Machida…to fight SHOGUN?”
I wouldn’t say that he “ducked” Machida, he just preferred to fight Shogun instead of Machida. That is not speculation; that is something Griffin said himself on national television on the UFC 76 Countdown special.
Remember, to Griffin it’s very important not just to win fights, but to be perceived as being in exciting fights as well, and he thought that he’d have a much better chance of having an exciting fight against Shogun than against Machida.
45 Huddle— I have to ask with no sarcasm intended on my end whether you are being sarcastic with your comments about the Wrestling Observer or whether you are being serious. Are you actually saying that Dave Meltzer does not take it easier on people who are friends of his (both in pro wrestling and MMA)? Seriously? How long have you been reading the Observer?
I think a little bit much is being made of Zuffa’s intentions. For one, yes, they have their posters boys like Liddell and Griffin and they want them to succeed. But, in the end, the UFC is a business and they’ll embrace any fighter that will impact their bottom line: PPV sales.
They just want to create stars to sell PPVs, so they of course will have a preference for American fighters but they grudgingly embrace fighters eventually if they are doing well (ie Anderson Silva, Rampage) in much the same way that it took years for DSE to really take a liking to Fedor. DSE built their entire HW division around Big Nog and weren’t initially too happy to have Fedor destroy that mystique. Obviously, they were forced to come around eventually.
Human nature always breeds an “us vs. them” mentality. When two companies merge and two sets of employees commingle, there will always be some initial distrust towards the new employees from old management, and more loyalty to old employees, but once the merger period is over and all the employees are integrated, it’s back to the employees to sink or swim on their own.
I am not going to presume to know the exact relationship between Meltzer and White, but he has criticized White in the past. The most recent example, that comes to mind, is the public ripping of Tito. Meltzer has written about the foolishness of burying one of your biggest stars.
I am of the opinion that he is generally pretty acurate with his thoughts and criticisms.
I will accept that most have some bias that color their writing, but I don’t see Meltzer as having more than others. Actually, I think he is far more professional about it than most of the net writers
Do you blame Griffin if he did? Machida is such a great range fighter, it’s almost debilitating to his opponent. David Heath probably wanted to just stop fighting, he didn’t seem to touch Machida for two rounds.
The Nakamura fight was interesting because I wanted to see how Machida would react to the aggressive charges that Nakamura is known for. He simply clinched and moved Nakamura to the side, throwing knees and jabs while he did so. Impressive and again.. debilitating to Nakamura.
It’s awfully strange to read the WO piece, where it uses as a cornerstone of it’s argument that UFC had a grand strategy to defeat Pride in the ring of public opinion by pitting him against TUF stars. We “know” that Forrest asked for the fight. Joe was going to schedule him with Machida. Someone else was going to be scheduled against Rua.
Based on history, they probably would have booked Rua a can, because that’s what they did for Cro Cop and Rampage. The only guy that they gave a belt fight to straight off was Henderson (and, damn, he did a fine job in that fight, can’t wait to see him again).
Contrariwise, the piece counts it as a negative that Zuffa supports fighters who have come up through local organizations, particularly those that Zuffa owns, over those coming up out of foreign organizations.
That was one of the specific halmarks of the Pride brand. Japanese fighters taking on foreign heels and beating them up.
Odd.
I wouldn’t say that he “ducked” Machida, he just preferred to fight Shogun instead of Machida. That is not speculation; that is something Griffin said himself on national television on the UFC 76 Countdown special.
Right…and this is Shogun Rua we’re talking about here. The guy that was supposed to slaughter Forrest. The #1 205lb fighter in the world at the time. What is there to complain about? Machida has beaten absolutely no one of serious value yet and has gone to decision with numerous mediocre fighters. Shogun is Shogun. I don’t see what talking point this is supposed to make, other than that Forrest is a ballsy dude.
Fact is, the UFC isn’t exactly winning a UFC vs. PRIDE showdown if that is their agenda. The Light Heavyweight crown is still held by a guy who fought a majority of his career in PRIDE, and Henderson could potentially take the Middleweight crown as well. The Heavyweight division is one fight away from possibly being taken by a PRIDE veteran. Fact is, this entire argument was blown back up with UFC 76 and Dana White’s comments referring to PRIDE fanboys and the websites that have ripped him, according to him.
And by the way,
Machida went to decision with numerous mediocre fighters because that is his style. His fighting style is seriously underestimated and unbelievably effective. Fighters can not hit him, and he frustrates everybody he fights. Machida is a force to be reckoned with and I don’t doubt that he will destroy some of the fighters that the UFC has grown to love and fans as well. Look out for Machida. Nobody should want to fight a guy who has some great footwork, good striking, and damn good ju-jitsu and clinch skills.
Contrariwise, the piece counts it as a negative that Zuffa supports fighters who have come up through local organizations, particularly those that Zuffa owns, over those coming up out of foreign organizations.
That was one of the specific halmarks of the Pride brand. Japanese fighters taking on foreign heels and beating them up.
This is amazing. Are you seriously comparing this to Sakuraba/Arsene and Minowa/Butterbean? I am astonished by people’s reaction to this bout and the way it went.
Machida went to decision with numerous mediocre fighters because that is his style. His fighting style is seriously underestimated and unbelievably effective. Fighters can not hit him, and he frustrates everybody he fights. Machida is a force to be reckoned with and I don’t doubt that he will destroy some of the fighters that the UFC has grown to love and fans as well. Look out for Machida. Nobody should want to fight a guy who has some great footwork, good striking, and damn good ju-jitsu and clinch skills.
Machida also has no killer instinct and hasn’t fought many, if a single, top level grappler. He’s not beaten a single top ten guy. Forrest fought SHOGUN. Will Machida beat these guys? Who knows? Let’s see him beat one before we start talking about him being dodged to fight the top man in the entire division, ‘k?
This is amazing. Are you seriously comparing this to Sakuraba/Arsene and Minowa/Butterbean? I am astonished by people’s reaction to this bout and the way it went.
I don’t see the point of dinging one organization for supporting homegrown fighters when the organization being defended used the same tactics.
You’re astonished at what, exactly? Astonished that people are surprised that Forrest beat Shogun? Astonished that Shogun lost to Forrest? Astonished that Forrest wanted to fight Shogun? Astonished that people are glad that Shogun lost to Forrest?
I’m astonished that I’m confused by your astonishment.
Well, no, not particularly.
I don’t see the point of dinging one organization for supporting homegrown fighters when the organization being defended used the same tactics.
Because they aren’t using those tactics? Because Forrest was the overwhelming underdog on all lines? Because Shogun was the best fighter at 205 according to most everyone? This is the dumbest argument ever. If they brought in Gomi to huge fanfare and Matt Wiman beat him by leg lock in round 3, would we all continue this ridiculous line of thought?
You’re astonished at what, exactly? Astonished that people are surprised that Forrest beat Shogun? Astonished that Shogun lost to Forrest? Astonished that Forrest wanted to fight Shogun? Astonished that people are glad that Shogun lost to Forrest?
I’m astonished that you’re pretending Forrest was a given against SHOGUN RUA, and that this was a setup by the UFC to put TUF over and destroy the evil PRIDE fighters. It is literally the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard about MMA in my entire life.
I’m saying exactly the opposite.
I predicted that Forrest would win the fight, but everyone was saying that he would lose it, and you can’t discount that.
The article was claiming that the UFC was attempting to put TUF fighters up against Pride fighters as a setup. Which is bullshit, because Forrest specifically REQUESTED the fight. UFC wasn’t going to schedule Griffin vs Rua, they were going to schedule Rua against someone else (most likely a can, based on their history with Pride fighters).
That was one of my problems with the article.
However, I also regard it as stupid for the article to ADDITIONALLY claim that UFC is wrong to push homegrown fighters. There’s nothing wrong with UFC being happy after the fact that Forrest won. It’s a feather in their cap, even if it is an unexpected one.
I predicted that Forrest would win the fight, but everyone was saying that he would lose it, and you can’t discount that.
I’m not. But how does supporting the guy who won the fight mean that that they’re supporting him more than Rua? If anything, this was a comparatively easy fight for Rua.
The article was claiming that the UFC was attempting to put TUF fighters up against Pride fighters as a setup. Which is bullshit, because Forrest specifically REQUESTED the fight. UFC wasn’t going to schedule Griffin vs Rua, they were going to schedule Rua against someone else (most likely a can, based on their history with Pride fighters).
Agreed.
However, I also regard it as stupid for the article to ADDITIONALLY claim that UFC is wrong to push homegrown fighters. There’s nothing wrong with UFC being happy after the fact that Forrest won. It’s a feather in their cap, even if it is an unexpected one.
I don’t think its a “push” to put the guy in a situation where everyone but himself thinks he’ll likely lose, and probably in brutal highlight fashion. I think they’re more than allowed to give him any fight he wants afterwards, though, because if you beat the #1 fighter in the world, that’s a pretty damn good way to legitimize yourself.
CompuStrike? Awesome. This will help end some debates.
The Rua/Griffin fight:
Griffin landed 164 VS Rua’s 55. I thought Rua took the first two rounds, but I can see that I was a little biased. Griffin dominated the fight through and through. That is amazing. It just goes to show, that if you’re favoring a fighter, you can see a fight differently.
I’m not. But how does supporting the guy who won the fight mean that that they’re supporting him more than Rua? If anything, this was a comparatively easy fight for Rua.
*shrug*
It’s entirely possible that UFC gave Forrest the fight that he asked for because they viewed him as likely to be a particularly highlight-worthy can. I mean, he bleeds a lot, in almost every fight. If Rua had beaten him, then chances are that you’d have gotten some great footage out of it.
Instead, now you’ve got a guy who was already popular with the larger US and UK fanbase, who has totally legitimized himself not only as a hard fighter whose fights are fun to watch, but as a guy who can take on top rated competition and win.
I’m aware that I’m causing a logic problem here if this was a debate, but I’m separating the “UFC pushes homegrown fighters at the expense of foreign fighters” claim from the “UFC pushed Forrest Griffin at the expense of Shogun” claim.
I don’t think UFC expected Forrest to win. They expected a great fight, because Griffin has a history of putting on a good show, but that’s probably the extent of it. So I’m gladly putting that latter claim down with a shotgun blast to the skull. UFC wasn’t pushing Griffin at the expense of Rua. Rua lost the fight, and UFC was happy because a fan favorite fighter now has a much better storyline going into a title run, and that’s good for ratings. Plus, that cookie line was genius.
I don’t know if UFC pushes other homegrown fighters at the expense of foreign fighters. I DO know that UFC has a tendency to put some fighters on the outside, keeping them out of title fights, etc, because they have a history of contract problems with those fighters (Ortiz and other members of Team Punishment in particular, although they certainly seem to be happy with the Big Bear Camp these days, now that the other fighters seem to have decided that Tito’s not worth listening to). Therefore, it’s entirely possible that if you look at the entire record in front of you, you’ll see that foreign fighters, or those coming from other organizations are in fact discriminated against in some way for the same sorts of reasons.
I don’t see that as a bad thing, and I don’t see it as being unique to UFC. No one wants their top fighters walking away with their belts, and it’s a lot easier to sell a fighter that reflects your audience than it is to sell a fighter that doesn’t. As the audience becomes more educated in the sport, it becomes an easier sell to bring in foreign born fighters for title fights though, particularly if the fans are already familiar with them because they’ve spent some time in your system already. Eventually, everyone wants to see the fighters that are reckoned to be the best fighting one another.
I think Compustrike is a possible step in the wrong direction. The last thing we need is more boxing influence on MMA scoring.
Look at the stats for Fitch/Sanchez. Fitch threw a lot rabbit punches in what was otherwise a lay and pray control victory, but Compustrike has no way to differentiate punches that literally did nothing to alter the nature of the fight.
Machida still wins fights, you don’t have to be exciting and finish fights to win. He has some impressive skills and dodginess that definitely make him a force in the LHW division. I actually love seeing him fight, very technically sound.
The whole Pride FC vs. UFC thing is retarded because the UFC or their army of sycophants change the definition of a Pride guy whenever it suits them. Heath Herring hadn’t been in Pride for a while before he came to the UFC. Despite this, he is used as evidence of Pride fighters struggling against UFC guys.
Yet, both Anderson Silva and Rampage were also former Pride guys. Both of them disposed of UFC champions and poster boys whom they built their promotion around, without even breaking a sweat.
I did not here a lot of talk from Dana White about people on the internet when Rampage whipped the golden boy he had been talking up in the media for weeks.
Kinda funny how stuff like that works.
I don’t think the UFC really cares who wins in the Rua/Griffin fight. On one side is a young, charismatic fighter with an aggressive fighting style in Griffin and on the other is a young, good looking fighter with an aggressive style in Rua. It’s a win/win situation either way. They’re both very marketable.
The Liddell/Jardine fight is actually a win/lose situation. They’re both very similar in that neither are particularly charismatic. However, Chuck is still a legend and the face of the UFC, while Jardine has a weird goatee with a monkey-style fighting stance. Neither are particularly young or quotable. This fight did derail a potential PPV dream fight with Silva. Oops.
As for CompuStrike, I don’t think it has any influence on the judging. It’s merely for statistical purposes only. All sports have some sort of stats keeping. Why should MMA be limited to W/L and KO/Submissions only?
Machida still wins fights, you don’t have to be exciting and finish fights to win. He has some impressive skills and dodginess that definitely make him a force in the LHW division. I actually love seeing him fight, very technically sound.
He hasn’t beaten a single serious top contender yet. Vernon White and Nakamura are not top contenders in anyone’s book.
I think Capitated should go back and read what Jeremy was actually responding to and addressing. Seems to have been a misunderstanding there.
Gono? Nakamura was enough to freak out Rogan and Goldberg and now they sign GONO? Question: Will Gono at least be forced to wear shorts in New Jersey?
Machida is a great fighter, no doubt about it. However, one thing that concerns me is his KO power, or lack thereof. He had Nakamura in a full-mount twice and yet couldn’t finish.
On the bright side, Machida has been the most aggressive I’ve seen him in a while.
Bryan, the problem isn’t that some Pride fighters are doing well; the problem is that the storyline across the internet was that all the Pride fighters were going to come in and clean house. Rampage is the only one who has come in and done that, as calling Anderson Silva a Pride fighter is disingenuous, he became the fighter he is now in Cage Rage, not Pride. The majority of Pride fighters have failed to live up to expectations. Herring hadn’t been used in Pride, but he was billed to be an outside threat in the division, a laughable statement now. Mishima was supposed to be a title threat, and then he promptly got beat by two TUFers. Werdum looked terrible against the shell of Arlovski, and Cro Cop and Shogun are now a combined 1-3.
All it shows is that the level of the fighters in the organizations is very similar. But the internet belief was that Pride was far and away better. That has been completely disproven, regardless of Liddell’s fall from grace.
“As for CompuStrike, I don’t think it has any influence on the judging. It’s merely for statistical purposes only. All sports have some sort of stats keeping. Why should MMA be limited to W/L and KO/Submissions only?”
cyphron, I can see your point, but I don’t think the judges operate in a vacuum. They do hear feedback from the fans and from the UFC (maybe not directly, but through the media) about how their scoring is viewed and I would find it hard to believe that their scoring methods are not affected at all by this feedback. Yes, they are supposed to follow the guidelines, but the guidelines require interpretation and they are human after all. What normal person likes being told they are a horrible judge after every decision?
So given that, if fans start using these stats for more than just “informational purposes” — and they will, guaranteed; just look at 45 Huddle proudly using the irrelevant Compustrike stats to “prove” that Fitch/Sanchez was a dominant victory for Fitch — I can see the way fans and judges naturally skew their interpretive scoring with an eye towards these interesting but somewhat irrelevant statistics.
Just my opinion.
Well, Compustrike is basically a fourth, impartial judge. The problem with the system is that it can only see what you can see from that one spot where the laptop is.
However, what mitigates that is that the judges don’t just take Compustrike’s word for it. Each of the three has a separate view of the action, all distinct from Compustrike. The mere fact that there are split decisions probably tells you all that you need to know about judging. People see things differently, and they aren’t afraid to write down what they think on that card.
“Not going to happen. Fighters who get brutally knocked out ONCE are usually not the same for at least their next one fight. Fighters who get brutally knocked out TWICE in a row… that just compounds all of the things that are caused by one brutal knockout (potential reluctance to engage during a fight, increased chance of getting knocked out again, decreased reflexes, etc). At the very least, it takes a couple of fights to get “back to normal” from something like that, and that generally applies to fighters in both MMA and boxing.
Also, Silva is among the smallest fighters in the entire light heavyweight division of the UFC, so I don’t know that he would necessarily be going on a tear even if he hadn’t been brutally knocked out in his last two fights.”
While I agree the two consecutive KO’s could hinder his fighting (i.e. psychologically and physically) he’s not making the mistake of coming back too quickly (like he did in the Hendo fight) and he’s never shown a reluctance to trade with the heaviest of hitters. He was rocked pretty hard by Hunt and it didn’t seem to affect his style in subsequent fights and he detrimentally was not affected by the brutal Cro Cop KO against Hendo (bad gameplan on his part). While I think we may see a more conservative striking approach from Silva in his UFC fights – I think that might be more due to a gameplan issue than any psychological issue.
As for his ability to deal with larger fighters – you do realize he has fought Arona x 2 and Rampage x2, who are two of the biggest 205’ers in the division, with a record of 3-1 (w/ two brutal KO’s). He also didn’t seem to have much difficulty handling a much, much larger guy in Fujita and faired quite well overall against Hunt (admittedly a newbie to mma, but with a 70lb+ advantage). So as for him being hindered by being “smaller”, I really don’t agree on that issue.
Again, as I said it was a “fanboy” wish of mine – I don’t really forsee it happening.
Gaijin, I don’t actually think Rampage and Arona would be considered “big”, at least by modern UFC standards. Rampage seems about average, and I think Arona would come in average as well. Don’t let their physiques fool you.
True enough…though I remember the Arona vs. Tito ADCC fight and I’m almost sure they’re approximately the same size.
Arona walks around near 230 does he not. Other than Forrest being a ridiculously huge 240 (i’m still shocked by that), I’d think Tito and Arona are the two biggest guys at 205. As for Rampage, I guess you’re right on letting the physique dictate “size” (the Randleman effect).
On UFC vs. PRIDE:
Just a thought…(since this is still a red-hot topic, apparently)
Middleweight Champion: Anderson Silva (PRIDE)
LightHeavyweight Champion: Rampage Jackson (PRIDE)
Heavyweight Champion: Randy Couture (UFC)
While Silva and Jackson have beaten the best in their respective weight classes to take their belts, Couture is untested against the top 3 from PRIDE (Fedor, Nogeuira and CroCop) and he was demolished – in his prime – by PRIDE heavyweight Josh Barnett.
Compare and contrast:
Akihiro Gono: http://sportsnavi.yahoo.co.jp/fight/photo/200709/im00065767.html
Kanye West: http://rottenryan.com/images/KanyeWestGrammy06.jpg
“Initially 3 other names were offered to Shogun”
I never heard this before…who were the other guys?
“Contrariwise”
Is that a word? If so…AWESOME! (adds it to my vocab)
“CompuStrike? Awesome. This will help end some debates.”
Not unless it some now differentiates between weak jabs or hammerfists and power shots.
“Werdum looked terrible against the shell of Arlovski”
When did Werdum ever look great? He shot up the rankings for his win over Aleksander (granted, he took him out quickly) but I’d always rank Werdum/Sergei/Aleks/Arlovski/Sylvia in the same catagory. All guys who hover around the lower end of the top 10 rankings. All could beat each other on any given night. All their top wins are only against each other (outside of Sylvia vs Ricco which was a long time ago at this point.)
I love watching Machida fight because hes so different than everyone else. I can’t wait until they put him in there with a proven 205er. Do Forrest vs Wandereli…winner gets a title shot. Then do Jardine vs Machida…winner gets the next shot. Loser gets the loser of Forrest/Wanderlei.
On UFC vs Pride (LOL @ this gay topic)…
Is Rampage a Pride fighter or a Gladiator Challenge/KOTC fighter?
Is Anderson Silva a Pride fighter, a Cage Rage fighter, or a Meca fighter?
Is Couture a UFC fighter or a RINGS fighter?
Seriously, all this shit is retarded. Do you base what organization you tie a fighter to by where they fought the most, where they most recently fought (ironically other than the league they’re fighting in), or where they started their career?
Not so long ago, Dana White was singing the praises of the underground and the forum and websites. That’s when there was no TV deal. He’s a big face of the UFC, and therefore he’s going to receive criticism. He just doesn’t know how to handle it.
Machida doesn’t need knockout power, as far as I’m concerned. Sure, he has some boring fights, but some of the action during the Nakamura fight was very good, and he was one kick away from knocking out Nakamura a few times.
Also, Anderson Silva is always considered a PRIDE fighter, but he isn’t. He’s had stints with MECCA, PRIDE, and the UFC all amounting to the same amount of fights. I would consider him more of a journeyman.
If you want to keep the debate alive, PRIDE could potentially own three divisions, Middleweight with Henderson, Heavyweight with Fedor if he comes and wins, and Light Heavyweight with Jackson.
Sometimes, some of the guys on here (Ivan and Zach) are pushing and trying to hard to find the ‘angle’ or ’story’ with each event. Find the hidden inside scoop or conspiracy.
Agreed.