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UFC 76 – the aftermath
By Zach Arnold | September 23, 2007
Kevin Iole of Yahoo Sports attended the UFC 76 post-fight press conference. Some highlights:
White launched into a tirade against the PRIDE fan boys and the Internet sites he said who encourage them to denigrate the UFC.
“I want to say something and everybody knows how I’ve felt for years about these goofy Internet websites,” White said through gritted teeth. “I hate them. They’re biased, crooked and there are a lot of other bad things I can say, but I don’t want to waste my time.
“They’ve been biased against us for years. Their reporting was always biased against us. They talk about fights that don’t make any sense. Let me tell you what: We’re the best in the business. Our matchmaker (Joe Silva) is the best. We put on the best and the biggest fights.”
Why go on a tirade about the Internet after the show, Dana? Why take a shot at Elite XC and call them Triple-A MMA, Kevin?
UFC 76 show reaction: UFC HP | MMA Junkie | UFC Mania | Sam Caplan | Fox Sports | Irish Whip Fighting | Sprawl ‘n Brawl | Dave Doyle | Steve Sievert | Fight Report | Long Beach Press-Telegram | CBS Sportsline | Orange County Register | The LA Times | The Canadian Press | The Houston Chronicle | Orange County Register 2
Other news:
Lorenzo Fertitta is quoted in the latest edition of GONKAKU (Gong Kakutougi) as stating that he hopes UFC and WOWOW reach a new agreement to start re-airing UFC shows in Japan in 2008.
Also in the latest edition of GONKAKU, Ed Fishman admitted that he was approached by Pancrase to buy the promotion.
The latest edition of Inside the Cage Radio.
The Fightworks Podcast: Luis Heredia and Richie Hightower interviews
MMA on Tap: Turner, Belfort Victorious at Cage Rage 23
Topics: Japan, Media, MMA, Pancrase, UFC, UK, Zach Arnold | 72 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
He’s either being defensive or feels validated by the results of tonight’s PPV (hard to say without hearing the context). A lot of people believed Shogun-Griffin and Jardine-Liddell were horrible match ups and mismatches on paper, that obviously wasn’t the case.
In any event, I do agree with him. I think the MMA media on the internet is in large part, biased and out of touch with the causal fan.
I think the biggest highlight of the article, is that Liddell is may retire. It’s not suprising, but he’s been the biggest star in North American MMA history – thus far. I’d say that’s an important tidbit.
There’s no way to spin the main event as validation whatsoever for the booking of that fight. That was designated to be a squash match for Chuck and instead it completely throws the booking plans up in the air.
It’s one thing for the PRIDE fighters to not hold up their end of the bargain (for the most part, they haven’t) in the Octagon, but it’s another to book a main event that nobody cared about and had zero upside for Liddell to win. It was all downside and he’s feeling it tonight.
Furthermore, both White and Iole are full of it in that article (talking about why PRIDE fans are so passionate about supporting their brand). UFC is the ultimate, pardon the pun, king of branding and king of league loyalty with their fans. “Ultimate fighting” is a more widely-used term in North American than MMA. For crying out loud, Dana White proudly makes himself a figurehead on The Ultimate Fighter. Nothing wrong with it, but don’t backtrack from the marketing tactic afterwards. Disingenuous to push that spin in the Yahoo article.
Kevin Iole should look in the mirror before calling any one a fan boy.
I’m not sure if Liddell losing throws everything in the air but they probably won’t be able to put on Liddell-Silva, or Liddell vs. anybody.
I think Shogun losing effects them the most because there is no clear cut no. 1 contender for belt right now. Win or lose Liddell wasn’t in the immediate title picture, Rua was…and it’s the titles they use hook you into their PPVs.
Looks like Chuck’s excessive partying has finally caught up with him. I somehow doubt that we’ll ever see the “old” Chuck back, if he doesn’t get his shit together and really just focuses on training. Retiring seems more like an option…
And Bodog and Elite XC are Triple A-MMA? Naw, i don’t think so. If anything they’re more like WCW, since they also have a backer who’s willing to pump a shitload of money in the product, even if they’re not making any (now)…
I actually think Liddell was definitely on the title picture, not now though. I’m thinking we may see Rampage/Silva 3 next just to really clear the air.
I somehow doubt that they’ll rush Wand into a title match. Somehow all the former Pride talent put on some rather lackluster performances (apart from Dan Henderson, who did good, even in losing [And i don’t include Silva and ‘Page because they fought outside, before coming to the UFC]). With Chuck on the decline there are only two fighters in the LHW division right now who seem to be able to take the torch and run with it: Forest and Rampage. They’re both good fighters, entertaining AND have personality (Sorry, but Jardine is bland as fuck). They need some more talent that the fans can really get behind, if it’s as a guy they love to cheer, or a guy they love to hate. So building Wand to the casual fan would be more in their best interest. Give them a few… well, let’s call them cans, before pitting him against the guys that are sitting at the top of the LHW food-chain…
White is right about the biased internet fans.
Only problem seems to be to me, that it always seems to go one way or another… Either they’re riding UFC’s jock and spouting the company line or riding dana white’s ass and looking for things to misinterpret and whine about. There seems to be so little unbiased middle ground.
But isn’t that the media in general, these days…
While his comments might be excessive, there is some truth to what he said.
My personal thought is that they probably should put Silva in the ring with Rampage.
It seems extremely likely given the Pride track record that you’re only going to get one fight out of him. So far, the Pride fighters that have been quickly brought up to title fights have seemed better prepared and have better fitness. Whether it’s a coincidence that those guys are also Americans…I don’t know.
You already have Pride backers on this site saying that they’re angry that their guys who have been losing fights didn’t get the shots at the money men that they wanted to see (which is a little bizarre). So, lets send a paper tiger against the man.
205 is a real mess, I’m still trying to figure out what I think. Right now I think I’d go ahead with Silva-Liddell in December and act like the split decision never happened. Forrest should really fight again to get a title shot but they’re in a precarious position so I’d just go ahead and do Rampage v. Forrest for Super Bowl sunday in what would be a big show.
I think Jeremy (not that Jeremy) is hitting on something I’ve thought for a while. Most of the upsets (not just the PRIDE guys) are happening because of three things: gameplans, cardio and in the case of the PRIDE guys, size.
The favorites come in with half-baked gameplans of doing what they always do, or worse, no gameplan at all. They come in ill prepared for a cardio battle. And in the case of PRIDE fighters, they come in as the smaller fighter.
The lack of gameplans and cardio are obvious. But even Joe Rogan mentioned that the PRIDE guys are smaller, and I don’t think it’s just due to steroids. With a few exceptions (like Rampage, Overeem, Aleks), I think many of the PRIDE guys were fighting in a weight class above what they could (or should, rather) in the UFC.
In this I include:
Wanderlei and Shogun – both have 185 frames for the UFC; both are about the same size as Rich Franklin. Wanderlei will look like a little child next to some UFC 205ers.
Cro Cop, Big Nog, Fedor – consider that Forrest cuts from the same weight they fight at
Filho – who is the same size as Matt Hughes
And I think part of the reason some of them are losing is because they’re not used to being the smaller fighter and they don’t gameplan or train properly to counteract this. That’s part of the reason why I don’t think Fedor is truly battle-tested the way Randy is. He has never fought a top fighter bigger than him. He’s made his entire name on beating two small HWs.
Anyway, just as a final note, I think we’re entering an era in MMA where pure skill doesn’t mean as much as preparation and execution (just like other mature sports).
To point out that the PRIDE guys have been disappointing is short-sighted because so have many of the UFC favorites in the recent past:
Franklin losing to Silva
Arlovski losing to Sylvia
Sylvia losing to Couture
Hughes losing to GSP
GSP losing to Serra
Liddell losing to Rampage
Liddell losing to Jardine
Jardine losing to Alexander
etc etc
Every single UFC poster boy has lost.
What does this say about the UFC as compared to these recent upsets for PRIDE?
Dana’s lashing out because (a) he’s childish and (b) Pride hardcore fans were genuinely irritating. I liked both promotions, but reading things on the Sherdog websites like “Ninja would own Randy” and “Herring would clean out the UFC” and “Gomi will destroy Diaz in the first minute” — that stuff (and the ranting was far more prevalent in Prides’ favor, although, of course, there was some outrageous pro-UFC claims) drove me away from Sherdog to here, by far the most intelligent MMA site on the web.
Thus, even though Dana is losing money every time a high paid Pride star loses or is unimpressive in the UFC, the childish part of him feels like — “Ha! Those internet jerks were wrong the whole time about Pride’s boys being better!” And he just can’t control his impulse to say so. But he should, because it doesn’t really do him any good.
Chuck looks done, but so does Wanderlei. They should fight in December anyway because the hype will still be fun. The fight will never settle who would have won at their peaks, because both men are in serious decline.
FF
Honestly, did Shogun do anything differently then he did in all of his Pride fights? He always swung wildly and when he was outstruck, took it to the ground. He was unable to do that against a fighter who had a gameplan in Forrest Griffin.
Mirko Cro Cop was always about one kick. He could hit a scrub with it any day of the week, but was under .500 against top competition. And he won a tournament against a bunch of undersized opponents.
The biggest thing is that these Pride guys haven’t adapted. It’s like going to college and studying as if it is an elementary school test. It just doesn’t work.
As for Liddell…. He has gotten old… And should retire.
Grape, you’re absolutely right about the manufactured UFC guys faring just as badly as the Pride guys.
We really seem to be entering a no-cans era now. The 205 and 170 are so completely stacked with talent that there are very few easy fights left. Jardine was supposed to be fresh meat for Liddell, and he stood with him toe to toe. I DON’T think that Jardine is that great a fighter, I think that Chuck is largely a manufactured figurehead that UFC needed in the days before they had a stable of actual talent.
I mean, seriously, they had a year long storyline about Tito and Chuck NOT FIGHTING!
If anything, seeing the UFC old guard fall is just as big a deal as seeing the Pride guys go down on their knees and pulling back their hair for the axe. It makes Randy Couture all the more interesting…in this era where the UFC can’t fit all the great fighters that they have into the rotation properly, Randy is still able to come back, at his age, and effectively fight off younger, stronger, and more vicious guys.
Staggering.
Zach, EliteXC and Bodog are triple-A organizations right now. The analogy was just fine and was not a swipe. It accurately portrays their standing at this point, as they are obviously not heavyweights(using sherdog language) like the UFC is and Pride was. Neither has the roster, drawing power, or track record to be called ‘Premier Leagues’.
Grape, I think you’re absolutely right. I think the biggest thing is that it’s backlash for how pumped up PRIDE has been and then they come in and don’t perform to the huge expectations people have.
“There’s no way to spin the main event as validation whatsoever for the booking of that fight.”
100% correct.
That main event is an example of terrible matchmaking. There’s no way to justify or explain it.
As for Liddell vs. Silva, they might as well still make that match. Does it matter that Liddell and Silva are both on the downside of their careers? Does it matter to Zuffa’s bottom dollar? Of course it doesn’t.
While they’re at it, they might as well throw Griffin vs. Jardine on that card as well.
mose is probably right.
How would you describe any of the promotions that Elite has purchased in the recent past? How about Pancrase? They’re minor promotions. Bodog and Elite having TV deals doesn’t change that, because their fighters are coming largely from those same circuits.
I guess you could say that they’re the elite level for women, but I think we’re still waiting for critical mass on women’s MMA.
I do not think Chuck looked old last night. He seems to have the same problem that Cro Cop has. He fights better going forward, than going backward, but he does not like getting hit. And getting hit makes him move backwards. Then all you have to do is stay out of reach of his big right hand. Jardine did this to perfection (with a little help from his leg kicks and the wild overhand right that Rampage exposed Chuck with 4 years ago). Jardine simply beat Chuck to the punch the same way Rampage did.
Frankly, I don’t think Liddell is done. I do think he’s still a bad matchup for Wanderlei or Shogun since I doubt either one will come in with the proper gameplan. But the gameplan is there and exposed, just as it is with Cro Cop.
Liddell was being given a guy custom built for him, they had a PPV that needed a headliner, and Silva refused to take that fight. The problem is that Chuck Liddell is finished and not coming back to the top of the mountain. All the matchmaking in the world can’t fix that obvious fact…well, unless you’re PRIDE. Then they could have matched him with a 185lb pro wrestler and had Americans jizz for his superiority after he KOed them in 6 minutes.
I really think that Silva is not the type of fighter to come in without a gameplan for a fight like that. As wild a fighting style as he has, I think the guy is a true professional and will be learning his lesson from all the other horror stories…and he will not come in lacking cardio like seemingly every other guy has done.
Liddell does look like he lost a step and his chin isn’t exactly as strong as it used to be. I say fuck it, both guys are coming off of two losses – let them sort it out and you’ll have one guy who you can toss into the title picture.
It’s what I said in my article that nobody agreed with – the UFC have erased Pride from history through their matchmaking. You’re damn right that Joe Silva is the best matchmaker out ther – FOR THE UFC’s LEGACY HE IS!
It’s what I said in my article that nobody agreed with – the UFC have erased Pride from history through their matchmaking. You’re damn right that Joe Silva is the best matchmaker out ther – FOR THE UFC’s LEGACY HE IS!
So, Shogun losing to a guy who was derided for years as nothing more than a reality TV star is all because Joe Silva made the fight? That is the worst excuse ever.
Yeah, because Joe Silva had a lot to do with th destruction of the Pride legacy. The PRIDE FIGHTERS had everything to do with that destruction. They did not perform well at all. The UFC can only put fighters in situations. It is up to the fighters themselves to perform. And it’s not like the Pride fighters weren’t set up to win all of those fights… They were the favorites.
As for EliteXC being the minor leagues… I completely agree. I will use Sherdog.com’s current ranking as a source. ElitXC has 2 Top 10 fighters… Jake Shields & Nick Diaz. They might have a third in Frank Trigg if he ends up signing.
Zuffa has 36 Top 10 fighters. And as things pan out more in the WEC for the Featherweight & Bantamweight Divisions… They will likely have more. Not to mention that they could be signing Fedor…. And guys like Little Nog & Arona might have a hard time staying in the Top 10 if they don’t stay active… Only pushing more Zuffa guys into those Top 10 slots. And if you make your own lists for Top 15, the depth of Zuffa only increases. Based on this, it is easy to call EliteXC a minor league system at this point.
***********
As for roids…. Or at least some sot of performance enhancers…. I think there is little doubt that Pride was full of it. Too many Brazilians are coming over looking like shells of fighters.
“Ultimate fighting” is a more widely-used term in North American than MMA. For crying out loud, Dana White proudly makes himself a figurehead on The Ultimate Fighter. Nothing wrong with it, but don’t backtrack from the marketing tactic afterwards. Disingenuous to push that spin in the Yahoo article.
WE needs to see rampage vs silva 3 🙂
After everything that has happened, I think we need to see Wanderlei Silva get a win in the octagon before he is given a title shot….
Quinton & Silva didn’t come in as “Pride fighters”. The only guy who has been labeled a Pride fighter and who looked respectable was Dan Henderson. That guy’s stock went up 10 fold.
I think the phenomenon we’re witnessing has an element of the new breed vs the old guard, in addition to the element of Pride vs UFC. The new guys who trained in all-around MMA without emerging out of an original discipline are beating the old elite. They are also evolving and improving from one fight to the next. Of course, there are exceptions (Couture, obviously).
Quinton came from WFA, yeah, but he made almost an entire career in Pride. I think there’s a really interesting story there for someone to get more details on, because I’ve heard that he went to Pride instead of UFC because he was in Tito’s camp and they didn’t want to be drawn together in UFC.
There’s a bunch of interesting fight ties that I’d like to see arranged for Rampage, but until those guys prove themselves, I think he should be fighting legitimate contenders instead.
While a Silva – Liddell match is obviously a moot point for December, I still think that Dana & the boys could salvage it for early 2008.
What I’d suggest doing is setting up a special ULTIMATE FIGHT NIGHT with Wanderlei & Chuck co-headlining against a couple of guys that they’re certain to KO. Though Jardine was supposed to be just that, I’m talking about fighters below that level. Like a Sean Salmon, a Mike Nichols, even a Ross Pointon. Basically just bodies for them to belt out ASAP to set up their “battle of the legends” on a PPV a couple of months later.
Yeah, I know it’s taking a page out of the boxing promoter’s handbook & that Joe Silva doesn’t like to make “showcase” fights, but at this stage of their careers I’m afraid that they’re a necessity if you want to get Liddell & Silva a couple wins under their belts to set up the long awaited showdown between the two of them.
If you are going to throw around the term “Pride Fighters” and not include Wanderlei and Quinton, you’re a retard getting caught up in semantics. Those two guys made their names in Pride.
They should do Chuck vs Wanderlei in December no matter what. Both guys are coming off two losses and most people still want to see the fight.
jim,
Another option might be to bring in some retread retro stars and let them beat them up.
Ken and Frank Shamrock might be available…
Dana is a bald Don King.. Reality shows can only carry Dana for so long before the average Joe crowd with all there full contact t-shirts get burnt out and move on to the next trend..
Is this site full of ufc ignorant nut hugging posts or what? It has nothing to do with Prides level of fighting compared to the ufc.. It has to do with the fighters having problems transfering.. If u honeslty think that ring fighting and cage fighting isnt different then u need to take your ass to the locla pub and drink another one…
As for cc the man stocks and corners fighters in the ring unloads and exits with a high kick.. As much as many of u might seem to think the 8 corners in a octagon cannot trap a fighter to do this.. The man has trained this way for 10+ yrs its not gonna just change over night..
zenki,
I can’t understand a word of what you typed there.
Transferring from ring to cage clearly causes a massive regression in the skill levels of most fighters. Never mind the fact that tons of other fighters have successfully made the transition without many problems, or the fact that Shogun has fought in a cage before…it’s clear that what zenki says is true.
zenki is absolutely correct. Watch Cro Cop’s fights again. CC’s opponents have just galloped to the left constantly then try and pin him against the cage. In a ring there is no way you can do that. The cage doesn’t have the same impact on all fighters obviously, but some it has a huge effect on their fighting styles
The cage has more than 2x the area.
I don’t disagree that the ring to cage element is part of the factor. However, that has nothing to do with the huge stamina issues we have seen, along with the pudgy body types of these Pride Fighters.
I was very impressed with Diego Sanchez in the post press conference. He was very mature about the loss. He took it in stride and just looked to want to improve in the future. He also mentioned going down to 155 lbs, which would be a fantastic move for him. We know he can beat Florian. His strength would translate very well for that division. A Sanchez/Stevenson, Sanchez/Sherk, or Sanchez/Penn fight would be big.
So let’s see what to do about the 205 belt:
Forrest beat Rua but lost to Jardine
Jardine beat Forrest but lost to Alexander
Rua, Liddell lost, and Alexander isn’t proven yet.
Henderson lost and should go to 185
I would give Wandy the title shot, with Forrest vs Liddell and Jardine vs Rua. The winner of Ortiz/Evans could also be a possibility for the title. I’m not sold, nor should anybody be with Alexander at this point.
UFC is licking their chops at the marketing of Forrest vs Rampage so I’m sure that will happen in Dec. and they will go ahead with Silva vs Liddell.
They can’t do anything with Chuck now, they gave him a fight that he should have won and they can’t try and build him up again, because if he loses to somebody lower in the food chain then Jardine, it’s all over for him. If you give Silva a “can” and he loses, then all of a sudden there goes his marketability. So with Liddell vs Silva you’re guaranteed to at least build up one person, but if they put on an exciting fight (which I suspect it will be) then nobody really loses.
Add me to the chorus of “Lidell vs Silva” anyway.
Both coming off 2 ugly losses. Winner regains stardom, loser retires.
klown,
Who do you expect to win? I guess that’s the question that lurks behind the answers that people are giving as to who they think should fight who.
Dana White on Liddell vs. Silva now (http://msn.foxsports.com/boxing/story/7257288): “It’s just not meant to happen.”
Odd how when Silva was coming off two losses in a row and Liddell was presumably coming off a big win over Keith Jardine, then it was “meant to happen.”
But now that Liddell and Silva are on more equal footing from the standpoint of both losing two in a row, not it’s “not meant to happen.”
Liddell doesn’t need or want that kind of preferential matchmaking.
The same FoxSports article also said, “He [White] also was very confident of signing Fedor Emelianenko, but felt it wouldn’t happen until after Emelianenko competes in a Russian sambo tournament in the fall.”
Ivan,
There is a huge difference between the Wanderlei Silva & Chuck Liddell losses.
Wanderlei Silva lost twice in a row. The first time to a Heavyweight. The second time in a very good fight Dan Henderson. Both were done with about 30,000 buys in PPVs… So basically nobody saw it in order to take his stock down in North America for that match-up.
Chuck Liddell lost twice in a row. Both times he looked bad. He looked much slower, has lost power to his punches, and is even talking retirement. He also did so in front of at least 500,000+ PPV Buys for each one. So his reputation in North America is down the crapper.
Public perception if a B!tch. A loss in the UFC has always been placed under the microscope ten times more then a loss in Pride. Whether that is fair or not is up to the fans and media to decide. But that is the reality of things.
One day I hope to finally understand the fascination with the Chuck v Wandy match up. It would have been interesting a while back, only because they were both at the top of their respective organizations. Other than that, I would rather see 50 other matches than that one.
Never got it, prbably never will.
I was talking about “equal footing” from the standpoint of winning the fight, having lost your last two fights in a row, not the marketability of such a fight. If you want to talk about the marketability to the casual UFC fans, Liddell vs. Jardine would be bigger to them than Liddell vs. Silva because they have no idea who Silva is, and they had no problem booking Liddell vs. Jardine.
I’m with Rollo the Cat on this one. That fight never really interested me.
The biggest fight for me right now is Georges St. Pierre vs. Jon Fitch in a 5 round title fight. To me, this is the fight to end all fights. I would also rather see:
1. Couture/Fedor
2. Fedor/Sylvia (due to the rumor of Fedor wanting to avoid this fight)
3. Cro Cop vs. Arlovski
4. Forrest vs. Rampage
5. Henderson/Anderson Silva
6. Deigo/Penn
Those were the first 6 or 7 that came to mind really quickly….
On a side note, I’m listening to Beatdown after the Bell on Sherdog.com, and Josh Gross just said: “I don’t know if the caliber of fights was tremendously high.” He honestly sounds like a crushed Pride fanboy. Too funny.
One has to consider how powerful Houston Alexander really is as a Light Heavyweight fighter. If Chuck’s punches were not strong enough to knock out Jardine, what does that say about Alexander’s power and ability? I see him coming up as a major contender in the Light Heavyweight division and it would be nice to see him in an all out war against Wanderlei Silva in December. Also one should note how well Xtreme Couture has been performing as a team lately. Couture’s own title win followed by a win from both the Griffin’s says alot about the impending challenge Randy’s camp will present to MFS, HIT, the Pit, Team Quest etc.
Apparently Rogan was on ESPN saying yesterday set the table for Griffin vs. Silva. Trying to make a “Chute Boxe Hunter” angle here?
After last night I have to say my interest is piqued. I think this solves the problem of not being able to put Griffin against Page right away (only one fight away from a KO loss), gives him a good fight and lets us see where Silva stands in the increasingly changing landscape at 205.
I have no problem with Griffin vs. Silva…. That fight interests me.
My only problem with that is… Who fights Rampage then?